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Boards unfettered sexism (See Mod Note in first post)

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    #122
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    You've hit the proverbial nail on the head there. Low level trolling is a problem on this site and you can be one around here and literally get away with it for years. They pick up the odd yellow and threadban here and there but they're still free to come back for endless more bites of the cherry. The sanctions handed out are nothing really when you consider their entire body of work as a whole but because its kept low level a combination of people not reporting and then mods seeing it as just short of actionable means they're free to carry on regardless. Every now and again the mask will slip and they'll post what they really think (such as that post advocating for the drowning of migrants in the English Channel) and the post will be deleted and a yellow handed out. So things like racism are allowed to continue unchecked.

    I think there has to come a point where Boards needs to ask itself is it really good for the community overall that this type of low level trolling is entertained for months and even years without any proper sanctions and by that I mean sitebans. Does Boards really want to become a safe space for racists, misogynists and homophobes? Some wold argue it already is to some extent. I wouldnt mind but it is mainly a handful of recurring posters so it shouldnt be all that difficult to deal with. But because it isnt a small minority really do a superb job of bringing this place down into the gutter on multiple occasions.

    More categories of Infraction would help define exactly where people are offending. It's quite vague really from the moderating point of view. Also in the Radio Forum, where I am, it is a moderating desert, which means do much escapes, and the one most active mod sometimes gets so much flack through pms etc that it can put you to the end of your tether at times. I've issued a few forum bans on account of certain posters literally trying to commandeer the forum and not hesitating to tell me what they were up to. On some threads where I am a more active poster I can be like "one of the lads" as I am am inclined to be edgy and in humour myself, but many posters know my form and don't that often go beyond the boundary.

    Some of the radio shows I don't follow myself through lack of time/availability, and some I don't like (and it's nearly better that I don't listen just so to be more neutral) and I don't always quite cop onto the vibe on them. I'm sometimes accused of allowing misogyny in one or two of these threads and I sometimes press pause button to cool them for a bit as I take a look as to what to do about posters next. But it has to be said women are equally capable of being nasty, it's really just that there are more men posting.


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    #123
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Oh please, the Radio Forum is one of the nastiest and most sexist forums on the Boards and yes I know I lost my cool there too (so I guess I'm one of the nasty women there) but moderation there is absolutely abysmal. I'm accused of being part of the Ciara Kelly fan club. She is nowhere near my favourite presenter I just feel the abuse she gets about her voice, her looks, her kids her, her previous profesion is deeply personal and deeply targeted towards her being a woman. There is one poster who obviously gets an easy pass because he is prolific poster. The last time he was supposed to be banned for fairly nasty post about the looks he was happily posting a day or two later.


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    #124
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    There is a direct lack of action on some fora to outright blatant sexism and some straight up personal abuse. Even reported posts are left unchecked. I'm speaking about posts that are now still visible in the "someone unusual you fancy" thread. I reported two posts there two days ago that are just sick in their abusiveness.

    Now is that is down to the mods determining the post doesn't break the forum rules? If so I think the determining moderator should have to come out and essentially give it their "stamp of approval" rather that the report being ignored and no one takes responsibility for it being allowed. I used to mod previously and I know how things work behind the curtain, where mods will discuss posts and posters.
    I do feel however that the standards applied have dropped significantly over the last few years. The style of modding has also changed. Posts being deleted with no notifications is a huge change from when I modded. Back then that was actually a big no no. If a post had to be deleted it was snipped with a mod action replacing the offensive text. At least that was a positive visible way to teach posters what was allowed and what was not.
    Now you can have an post deleted and never even know about it.... Which leads to to think that you can post on that manner again and again. I'd love to know who came up with that as a valid moderation action because its very damaging to the whole forum.


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    #125
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Oh please, the Radio Forum is one of the nastiest and most sexist forums on the Boards and yes I know I lost my cool there too (so I guess I'm one of the nasty women there) but moderation there is absolutely abysmal. I'm accused of being part of the Ciara Kelly fan club. She is nowhere near my favourite presenter I just feel the abuse she gets about her voice, her looks, her kids her, her previous profesion is deeply personal and deeply targeted towards her being a woman. There is one poster who obviously gets an easy pass because he is prolific poster. The last time he was supposed to be banned for fairly nasty post about the looks he was happily posting a day or two later.

    A poster sometimes needs to go beyond one single moderator to complain, there are Co-Mods, Category Mods, and beyond to address concerns and I would urge any poster to appeal here.


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    #126
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,859 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    An real example in the Gentleman's Club this morning.

    "Ah toxic masculinity - a term made up by women nobody would ride"

    A very obvious example.


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    #127
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,002 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Now you can have an post deleted and never even know about it.... Which leads to to think that you can post on that manner again and again. I'd love to know who came up with that as a valid moderation action because its very damaging to the whole forum.

    There was a post deleted in the middle of the night in this thread and I'm very very very glad not to see it this morning. It was the singularly most disgusting post I've seen on this forum, and framed as supporting women. I really don't see deleting that as damaging to the forum.


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    #128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    There is a direct lack of action on some fora to outright blatant sexism and some straight up personal abuse. Even reported posts are left unchecked. I'm speaking about posts that are now still visible in the "someone unusual you fancy" thread. I reported two posts there two days ago that are just sick in their abusiveness.

    Now is that is down to the mods determining the post doesn't break the forum rules? If so I think the determining moderator should have to come out and essentially give it their "stamp of approval" rather that the report being ignored and no one takes responsibility for it being allowed. I used to mod previously and I know how things work behind the curtain, where mods will discuss posts and posters.
    I do feel however that the standards applied have dropped significantly over the last few years. The style of modding has also changed. Posts being deleted with no notifications is a huge change from when I modded. Back then that was actually a big no no. If a post had to be deleted it was snipped with a mod action replacing the offensive text. At least that was a positive visible way to teach posters what was allowed and what was not.
    Now you can have an post deleted and never even know about it.... Which leads to to think that you can post on that manner again and again. I'd love to know who came up with that as a valid moderation action because its very damaging to the whole forum.

    Well maybe we need moderators to come back and be active rather than posters merely constantly slinging mud at current moderators. It is extraordinarily demoralising and is just going to chase existing kids away. My own forum is a desert, absolutely nobody wants to do it, the posting will go to the lions shortly.


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    #129
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    We have a responsibility as mods though. I don't allow sexism in ther forum I mod, nor do any of my fellow mods. Sometimes I've had to row back on a technicality, but any hint of it and that's it with any of us, and I'm the only woman. Admittedly, we're a good modding team, and Cycling I think is the 5th busiest forum on boards so certainly not the busiest. However if a forum can't even try at equality should it be open at all? I think not personally, given the intolerance allowed to brew there.
    It's gotten much worse over time, as more and more sexist, racist, homophobic and transphobic stuff is allowed. The low level trolling is a big problem too, and a significant part of it.


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    #130
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Mod note: Troll banned, posts deleted, including replies to it, FYI.


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    #131
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    A poster sometimes needs to go beyond one single moderator to complain, there are Co-Mods, Category Mods, and beyond to address concerns and I would urge any poster to appeal here.

    Yes because category moderator is needed to notice that one presenter is targeted for looks and tone of her voice or her children. How many male presenters were accused of screeching?


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    #132
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think if something is very clearly intended as an insult or to be hurtful to other people, irrespective of all else (sexist etc etc), it ideally needs to be dealt with. It's not *always* entirely clear-cut, so that's why it's ideal to have a variety of moderators. Moderators also need to keep a check on own inclination to be arrogant; sometimes you have to wear a bit of a cloak of it in order to moderate at all, but as a mid one does need to take a look at oneself on this respect and facilitate a diversity of opinion.


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    #133
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pwurple wrote: »
    Here are a couple of quotes from the thread about women's running gear.




    And here is today's news about a female runner sexually assaulted in Coolock.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0211/1196477-courts-sexual-assult/

    But I'm imagining it, right?


    (Don't bother telling me all women should self-impose a curfew. k thanks.)

    I hope you're not suggesting what the lady was wearing was a factor in the alleged assault?


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    #134
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Augeo wrote: »
    I hope you're not suggesting what the lady was wearing was a factor in the alleged assault?

    She's not.

    What she's saying is that if men objectify women, discuss at length what women should wear during sport, denigrating the ones they deem too 'ugly' for certain clothes and being sexually suggestive about the ones that meet their standard of arousal then it's not a mad leap to think that if that's acceptable amongst most men, there's always one fcuking wierdo rapist who thinks that the banter is fine to be acted upon. There's one reason why men would discuss women's running trousers and we know it's not discussing the finer points of running.

    I've started to run on and off for a few years now. And yeah I'm a bit wobbly in the arse area. But even I've had a lot of male looks - blatant turn-around-and-bend-over-to-get-a-better-look-at-her-arse looks. Making sure that he makes me aware that he's checking out my arse. Evaluating whether or not I meet his standards of fcukability. If I'm lucky he'll think that my arse isn't sexy enough for him in my running pants, because obviously, that's my sole purpose putting them on, right? It couldn't possibly be that I just want to get fit and run and wear the correct apparel for the sport.

    I don't feel particularly safe running because when I go online and read the way men write about women in running gear. The way they categorise women who 'they'd give one to', which women they think needs to stay home because they are just too awful on the male gaze. I already have to analyse my route at length. Figure out daylight/safety/ how isolated it is. I get that fleeting thought when I run past a man - that female safety check we all do. Has he stopped? Is he following? Is he turning around to look at me? Should I get worried? Where's the nearest shop? Is it getting dark? etc.

    The point is that men tell us it's just talk. Banter. It's just a look. Calm down. We should be flattered like. So we push down our fear, our anxiety about what men think in their heads about what they like to do to women in running pants. Because we just want to get some exercise. Until there's one one man who decides if men are entitled to think in a sexual way, talk in a sexual way, look in a sexual way, that they are also entitled to touch that runner in a sexual way and a woman ends up raped. And they'll all tut at the terribleness of it all, wonder what the world is coming to and remind their wife or sister not to go running in X area because a woman got raped there and then go right back to laughing on Boards about the audacity of the unattractive woman with camel toe they saw that day.


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    #135
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,859 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    lucalux wrote: »
    I'm not going to say that boards is a healthy place for equality at all times, but I would have an issue with equating men having a look at women they find attractive, and 'rape culture'.

    I'm not saying there's no link between them, you'll have leery guys who would be happy to have more than a look, but having a look is not close to threatening or damaging behaviour. It's human nature, hard wired for reproduction.

    Women do it too, find men attractive.

    In that same thread there's an exchange about grey tracksuit bottoms, have a look online for the randy women lusting after men in grey sweatpants to see what I mean!

    Other than that, yes, I find boards can attract people who hold misogynistic or racist or "whatever negative you like" views.
    There can be misandrist views on here too, but I'd say there's a majority of men compared to women on here, which would skew things.

    On the other nasty thread you said to me.

    You're mad that people don't find fat attractive, and that they would rather not see someones ass and fupa hanging out of basically see through leggings while in a queue. Ok.

    I suggest you read Neyite's post No. 134 above this one in this thread which ties in with the topic discussed there about judging people on what they wear.


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    #136
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Neyite wrote: »
    She's not.

    What she's saying is that if men objectify women, discuss at length what women should wear during sport, denigrating the ones they deem too 'ugly' for certain clothes and being sexually suggestive about the ones that meet their standard of arousal then it's not a mad leap to think that if that's acceptable amongst most men, there's always one fcuking wierdo rapist who thinks that the banter is fine to be acted upon. There's one reason why men would discuss women's running trousers and we know it's not discussing the finer points of running.
    .........

    Such talk isn't acceptable amongst most men, any women who think it is are grossly incorrect.

    So yourself and herself are way off IMO with the respective spiels. Such views are appalling.


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    #137
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,859 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Augeo wrote: »
    Such talk isn't acceptable amongst most men, any women who think it is are grossly incorrect.

    It does happen unfortunately, though I agree there are many men who find it unacceptable.

    Point being made here in respect of boards, is that there is a considerable number holding these views and they are not actioned.


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    #138
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Faith wrote: »
    Mod note: Okay, enough. This forum does NOT exist for men to tell women how to feel, or how to react to anything, or how to experience anything.

    I will not discuss this mod warning any further, and I have run out of patience with taking a light touch approach. Bans will be issued next to anyone who has clearly not read or ignored the charter.
    .
    Augeo wrote: »
    Such talk isn't acceptable amongst most men, any women who think it is are grossly incorrect.

    So yourself and herself are way off IMO with the respective spiels. Such views are appalling.

    Mod note: My mod warning was as clear as it can be. Banned for 2 weeks for ignoring the mod warning.


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    #139
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,859 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Faith wrote: »
    Mod note: My mod warning was as clear as it can be. Banned for 2 weeks for ignoring the mod warning.

    Just on topic Faith as I see you are a C Mod.

    How long should it take for a report to be actioned?


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    #140
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,797 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Augeo wrote: »
    I hope you're not suggesting what the lady was wearing was a factor in the alleged assault?

    I've often wondered what the response to this would be, if a sexual assault (not this one, just theoretically) went to trial and it came out in evidence that yes, what the victim was wearing, was in fact an element of what motivated the attacker.

    Theres a huge amount of absolutes being fired around here by folk who actually have no clue what is behind any sort of vile attack like this. Does it make people feel safer to imagine something is impossible or what?


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    #141
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    anewme wrote: »
    Just on topic Faith as I see you are a C Mod.

    How long should it take for a report to be actioned?.

    There's no set time frame, I'm afraid. The forum has two mods and it's a Monday afternoon. They may be at work or busy or any other reason that they haven't gotten to it yet. As a very loose rule, you could think about PMing a mod to follow up after, say, 24 hours to enquire about whether action was taken. But we always ask that posters give us a fair chance to respond, taking into account that we're real people with real lives too and aren't always online and available to respond quickly :)


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    #142
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    anewme wrote: »
    An real example in the Gentleman's Club this morning.

    "Ah toxic masculinity - a term made up by women nobody would ride"

    A very obvious example.

    I must admit that sentence made me smile. It might not be popular view here but I think that while it is vulgar it is not overly personalised attack. I have to admit I'm not a fan of terms like toxic masculinity or rape culture. They are vague to all encompassing and too quickly used to shut down debate.

    I very much believe there is plenty of sexist nonsense and hostility towards women on boards that should be called out but a bit of leeway must be given too. It's not an easy line to thread but you wouldn't see that comment unless you actively look for it in a forum that is dedicated to men and their issues.


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    #143
    Scratchly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 294 ✭✭Scratchly


    Faith wrote: »
    There's no set time frame, I'm afraid. The forum has two mods and it's a Monday afternoon. They may be at work or busy or any other reason that they haven't gotten to it yet. As a very loose rule, you could think about PMing a mod to follow up after, say, 24 hours to enquire about whether action was taken. But we always ask that posters give us a fair chance to respond, taking into account that we're real people with real lives too and aren't always online and available to respond quickly :)

    I have a question. Why is there a thread here discussing and complaining about the moderation in other forums when it's explicitly forbidden in the charter?


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    #144
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    I don't notice it. But if I see something sexist I dont like, just as in real life, I usually tend to say fcuk that for a game of cowboys, immediately back off and ignore. Life is too short to try and correct the views of deranged people. I am sure there are nasty men and women on boards just like there are most places.


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    #145
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,859 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I must admit that sentence made me smile. It might not be popular view here but I think that while it is vulgar it is not overly personalised attack. I have to admit I'm not a fan of terms like toxic masculinity or rape culture. They are vague to all encompassing and too quickly used to shut down debate.

    I very much believe there is plenty of sexist nonsense and hostility towards women on boards that should be called out but a bit of leeway must be given too. It's not an easy line to thread but you wouldn't see that comment unless you actively look for it in a forum that is dedicated to men and their issues.

    Always happy to take others feedback on board, so your views are appreciated.

    I don't believe the womens' forum should be used to bash men, or vice versa and I'd see that as women bashing to belittle people. Ah you need a ride is one of the most over used phrases to shut down women.


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    #146
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,859 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Scratchly wrote: »
    I have a question. Why is there a thread here discussing and complaining about the moderation in other forums when it's explicitly forbidden in the charter?

    It is a general question for a C Mod of both categories about a timeline in general.


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    #147
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Scratchly wrote: »
    I have a question. Why is there a thread here discussing and complaining about the moderation in other forums when it's explicitly forbidden in the charter?

    It's a fair question and I've been wondering myself about whether it would be better to move this thread to Feedback to make the scope broader. The reason I haven't is because the OP was seeking to discuss the issue of sexism with women here in tLL. There have definitely been some comments about moderation, but they were either in the context of sexism being permissible or were part of a discussion in which the moderator of the other forum was involved.

    Can you report any posts you feel are problematic and I'll review, in case I've missed anything?

    And (Mod note) for everyone going forward, please keep your posts focused on the issue of sexism, rather than drifting into discussing specific forums and/or their moderation. I may go back and delete some posts if they have broken the following rule in the charter:
    Don't discuss other forums, or their moderation. Problems with moderation in other forums should be dealt with in those forums, or in feedback.


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    #148
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,859 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    I don't notice it. But if I see something sexist I dont like, just as in real life, I usually tend to say fcuk that for a game of cowboys, immediately back off and ignore. Life is too short to try and correct the views of deranged people. I am sure there are nasty men and women on boards just like there are most places.

    And that is a fair point.

    But not everyone is the same. If I see someone sprouting nasty views, be they sexist, racist or demeaning, I will speak out. Especially if they are impacting others - who may not be as confident to speak out. It is the only way to bring change and inclusivity.

    However, since this thread was started, there have been numerous people come forward who have left the forum, or view certain forums as no go area. I am very shocked to be honest at the number of people who have been impacted by this thread. It is disappointing for Boards.ie to have people leave feeling upset and disheartened.

    This is a bigger issue than saying, ah, cant be assed as its not just an isolated incident or a couple of angry people.


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    #149
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,812 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I must admit that sentence made me smile. It might not be popular view here but I think that while it is vulgar it is not overly personalised attack. I have to admit I'm not a fan of terms like toxic masculinity or rape culture. They are vague to all encompassing and too quickly used to shut down debate.

    I very much believe there is plenty of sexist nonsense and hostility towards women on boards that should be called out but a bit of leeway must be given too. It's not an easy line to thread but you wouldn't see that comment unless you actively look for it in a forum that is dedicated to men and their issues.

    I dont think anyone said that was a personal attack. Its mysogyny. I really despair that anyone would smile at a comment like that.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #150
    cee_jay
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭cee_jay


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I must admit that sentence made me smile. It might not be popular view here but I think that while it is vulgar it is not overly personalised attack. I have to admit I'm not a fan of terms like toxic masculinity or rape culture. They are vague to all encompassing and too quickly used to shut down debate.

    I very much believe there is plenty of sexist nonsense and hostility towards women on boards that should be called out but a bit of leeway must be given too. It's not an easy line to thread but you wouldn't see that comment unless you actively look for it in a forum that is dedicated to men and their issues.

    It shouldn't matter if it is personalised or not. A woman's worth shouldn't be reduced to if she is "f*ckable" or not.


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    #151
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    anewme wrote: »
    Ah you need a ride is one of the most over used phrases to shut down women.

    Funny you should say that phrase. As a young and very country-innocent girl I moved to Dublin at 16 to work at cleaning rooms in a very posh hotel before starting college. The lady who was head of housekeeping was a really glamorous, good-looking woman who was extraordinarily strict. I thought she was fabulous, had never seen the like of her. It was as if we - all her ''girls'' - were in finishing school, she had extremely high standards. I remember hearing that phrase for the first time among the older girls and women about her - it was, I noticed, the go to refrain - that one needs a ride. In my innocence I actually wondered what a ride would possibly do to her to make her any different. :P


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