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Boards unfettered sexism (See Mod Note in first post)

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Comments

  • #252
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    There is a difference between debate and discrimination and hate, and crossing it has become the norm on boards. This is the problem. The standards of fairness should be uniform across the site - if it's not ok to say a think in TLL then it's not ok in AH. It drives way, way more people away than it brings, it only makes the place comfortable and enjoyable for a very narrow, very privileged demographic, and it will be the end of the site. it will atrophy, and indeed has done and continues to do as this discriminatory, style of posting is allowed to flourish.


  • #253
    Invidious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 528 ✭✭✭Invidious


    eeeee wrote: »
    The standards of fairness should be uniform across the site - if it's not ok to say a think in TLL then it's not ok in AH.

    I think it's entirely unrealistic to enforce one standard across the entire site, especially since most of the tightly moderated forums on Boards are now deader than a doornail in terms of traffic. In the Ladies' Lounge, only a handful of new threads have been started in 2021 so far, and most of them have fewer than 20 posts. If AH were moderated to the same stringent standards, it would die off too ... and that would be the end of one of the site's biggest forums, and presumably Boards.ie itself.
    It drives way, way more people away than it brings...

    How do you know this? As Exhibit A, we're told that a female Boards.ie Admin "left Boards" (even though she's still listed as an active Admin) because she couldn't stand all the "hate." And yet she's posting away over on Twitter, which British MP Glyn Davies has correctly called a "cesspit of vile speech." It doesn't stand to reason that someone would leave a social platform because of all the "hate," but happily keep posting on another social platform that, by all accounts, can be far more hateful.
    it will atrophy, and indeed has done and continues to do as this discriminatory, style of posting is allowed to flourish.

    Has there ever been a time when off-colour comments about overweight women wearing tight leggings wouldn't have been found on Boards? Or threads criticizing Travellers, asylum seekers, and the like? Such threads have found on the site for the 20+ years the site has been around — indeed, much more leeway was allowed at one time — and yet people were able to post away on other forums while ignoring AH-style threads they might have found offensive.

    Boards has gone into a probably terminal decline for numerous reasons — it has a 90's bulletin board look and feel that doesn't appeal to younger people, it doesn't have the cash or the employees to upgrade the site significantly, and it now has to compete with the likes of Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, etc., that younger people find more to their taste. But the actual content can hardly be blamed for the decline. Go look at Twitter, YouTube comments, Reddit threads, etc., and you'll find far more to get offended about over there — and yet those platforms are thriving.


  • #254
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    Invidious wrote: »
    I think it's entirely unrealistic to enforce one standard across the entire site, especially since most of the tightly moderated forums on Boards are now deader than a doornail in terms of traffic. In the Ladies' Lounge, only a handful of new threads have been started in 2021 so far, and most of them have fewer than 20 posts. If AH were moderated to the same stringent standards, it would die off too ... and that would be the end of one of the site's biggest forums, and presumably Boards.ie itself.



    How do you know this? As Exhibit A, we're told that a female Boards.ie Admin "left Boards" (even though she's still listed as an active Admin) because she couldn't stand all the "hate." And yet she's posting away over on Twitter, which British MP Glyn Davies has correctly called a "cesspit of vile speech." It doesn't stand to reason that someone would leave a social platform because of all the "hate," but happily keep posting on another social platform that, by all accounts, can be far more hateful.



    Has there ever been a time when off-colour comments about overweight women wearing tight leggings wouldn't have been found on Boards? Or threads criticizing Travellers, asylum seekers, and the like? Such threads have found on the site for the 20+ years the site has been around — indeed, much more leeway was allowed at one time — and yet people were able to post away on other forums while ignoring AH-style threads they might have found offensive.

    Boards has gone into a probably terminal decline for numerous reasons — it has a 90's bulletin board look and feel that doesn't appeal to younger people, it doesn't have the cash or the employees to upgrade the site significantly, and it now has to compete with the likes of Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, etc., that younger people find more to their taste. But the actual content can hardly be blamed for the decline. Go look at Twitter, YouTube comments, Reddit threads, etc., and you'll find far more to get offended about over there — and yet those platforms are thriving.


    Cycling is one of the busiest forums on Boards. As is Motors. Both well moderated from a discriminatory POV.



    Making a community message board a place for one, narrow demographic of people is a sure fire way to kill it. It's happening, numbers are dwindling year on year (Covid bump aside), and it will continue to do so as long as it excludes more groups of people than it includes.



    It is possible to have discussion, debate, humour and a good sense of community on a forum without being discriminatory. I know this because it happens in Cycling. It can be done. The will and support must be there, but it absolutely can be done.


  • #255
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    +1 Invidious. Whatever about the merits of discussing moderation around sexism and other aspects of the site(and there certainly are merits) the decline seems to have pretty much nothing to do with it. When I was a mod of this forum waaaay back in the day the exact same thing came up and was about the main reason why the private subforum was set up. General sexism in other forums, but more locally a bunch of blokes who would be guaranteed to wade in on threads here with their tuppence worth. Many bannings occurred. Threads in Feedback debating it, a tightening up by mods and the community in After Hours etc. All this when Boards.ie was on the up and throughout the very peak of popularity, with communities online and off. Before poster comeback on mod actions, before GDRP, before the ability to close accounts and when examples of various isms were a lot easier to find. If people were leaving then because of a perception or reality of a toxic environment the numbers weren't showing that at all.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #256
    Invidious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 528 ✭✭✭Invidious


    eeeee wrote: »
    Making a community message board a place for one, narrow demographic of people is a sure fire way to kill it.

    In my view, many of the proposals in this thread would indeed turn Boards into an echo chamber for one narrow demographic — i.e., the progressive "woke" left, which itself is disproportionately white, female, middle-class, urban, and university-educated.

    One valuable service that Boards.ie offers in Irish life is to create space for opinions that wouldn't be allowed on RTE or in the Irish Times, but are valid and legitimate nonetheless, even if some find them offensive. I for one would like to see that space preserved.


  • #257
    Neyite
    Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Mod ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    I thought that the private forum was set up so that women could discuss and arrange real life meetups safely without it being attended by male posters from other parts of the site?

    I'm hazy on it but I thought the forum arose out of a male poster from elsewhere either threatening to turn up at a TLL meetup or that he actually did.


  • #258
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Neyite wrote: »
    I thought that the private forum was set up so that women could discuss and arrange real life meetups safely without it being attended by male posters from other parts of the site?

    I'm hazy on it but I thought the forum arose out of a male poster from elsewhere either threatening to turn up at a TLL meetup or that he actually did.
    Oh god yeah N, don't remind me. :) That was a big part of it too alright. For a time it was a chatty place with it.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #259
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Invidious wrote: »
    In my view, many of the proposals in this thread would indeed turn Boards into an echo chamber for one narrow demographic — i.e., the progressive "woke" left, which itself is disproportionately white, female, middle-class, urban, and university-educated.

    One valuable service that Boards.ie offers in Irish life is to create space for opinions that wouldn't be allowed on RTE or in the Irish Times, but are valid and legitimate nonetheless, even if some find them offensive. I for one would like to see that space preserved.
    +1, however things could be tidied up and made less... well, nasty for the want of a better word in some quarters. So said opinions can still be held and discussed because of some of the reasons you give and I agree they are valid reasons. Indeed we might get better discussions minus the back and forth rancour that can descend.

    People need to report posts. Unless a mod reads every post in every thread - and nobody has time for that - stuff will get missed. There is absolutely zero point having a complaint about whatever you read that you feel is over the line and not bringing it to the attention of the moderators in question. It becomes an impotent complaint of no actual value if you want to see actual change.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #260
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Mod note: I'm starting to feel like this thread is going around in circles with no new discussion happening, just an increase in divisive language and people complaining it's an unreasonable expectation to require civility and respect in posts.

    If anyone else feels they have something significant to add to this thread, please do so. Otherwise, I'll lock it as it has run its course, and the thread has achieved its aim of attracting attention to an ongoing issue, with work going on behind the scenes to try and find a resolution.


  • #261
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,478 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The sexism noted here is part of an overall trend on boards towards what might broadly be called far-right views.

    This recent post sums it up broadly. It has become clear to me over recent years that boards.ie is the forum of choice for the far right in Ireland. It was interesting to see Peter Casey getting double in the boards Presential poll than he got in real life.

    I'm not suggesting that most boards posters are far right. But I am suggesting that there is a trend towards more and more far right views on boards, sexism, racism, anti-traveller views, anti trans views and more. It's also interesting to note the relatively sudden and relatively narrow concerns for issues like safety of women - huge concerns voices for the safety of women in women's toilets from the terrible transvestite men or transgender women, but relative silence on much more prevalent issues of violence against women by men. There are huge concerns voiced about the integrity of women's sports from transgender women, but relative silence on the much more significant issues for women's sport of teenage girls' body image, representations in media, funding and more. It's really hard to see many of these concerns as good faith.

    It also seems to be concerted to a degree. On that same thread, when things started getting heated, three seperate posters referred untruthfully to previous comments of mine on an 18 month old thread, a thread that none of the three had actually participated in at the time. This isn't coincidental - this is planned and organised. Or else, it's the same two lads in their ma's spare room running multiple accounts here.

    This isn't about free speech or censorship. It's about whether boards wants to be the Fox News of Irish discussion boards or not.

    Personally, I don't think it's a smart move commercially or on any basis really.


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  • #262
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Man, the ''far right'' is the modern equivalent of the bogey man.
    They are everywhere, it seems. :rolleyes:


  • #263
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,478 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    Man, the ''far right'' is the modern equivalent of the bogey man.
    They are everywhere, it seems. :rolleyes:

    Probably not helpful to revisit everything on that thread, but it worth remembering Baudelaire's maxim that “the devil’s best trick is to persuade you that he does not exist.”


  • #264
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Probably not helpful to revisit everything on that thread, but it worth remembering Baudelaire's maxim that “the devil’s best trick is to persuade you that he does not exist.”

    If you could just point to one publicly elected representative or local official in Ireland who is ''far right'', and maybe one journal or newspaper or magazine that has any distribution worth paying attention to that is far right, that would be great, thanks. The devil exists in people's heads alright, but has jumped religion.


  • #265
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,478 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    If you could just point to one publicly elected representative or local official in Ireland who is ''far right'', and maybe one journal or newspaper or magazine that has any distribution worth paying attention to that is far right, that would be great, thanks. The devil exists in people's heads alright, but has jumped religion.
    My point, as clearly detailed above, was about boards.ie - not about elected officials or media - just about boards.ie.


  • #266
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    If you could just point to one publicly elected representative or local official in Ireland who is ''far right'', and maybe one journal or newspaper or magazine that has any distribution worth paying attention to that is far right, that would be great, thanks. The devil exists in people's heads alright, but has jumped religion.

    Mod Note: Gruffalux, there have been several on-thread warnings about pulling this thread off topic. Widening the scope of the discussion from boards.ie to elected representatives is an example of that. If you can't keep on topic, then don't post on this thread again.


  • #267
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Faith wrote: »
    Mod Note: Gruffalux, there have been several on-thread warnings about pulling this thread off topic. Widening the scope of the discussion from boards.ie to elected representatives is an example of that. If you can't keep on topic, then don't post on this thread again.

    I was responding legitimately to AndrewJRenko who brought up the ''far right'' in a long post above which is a false analogy. He said - ridiculously
    It has become clear to me over recent years that boards.ie is the forum of choice for the far right in Ireland.

    and
    I am suggesting that there is a trend towards more and more far right views on boards, sexism, racism, anti-traveller views, anti trans views and more. It's also interesting to note the relatively sudden and relatively narrow concerns for issues like safety of women - huge concerns voices for the safety of women in women's toilets from the terrible transvestite men or transgender women, but relative silence on much more prevalent issues of violence against women by men. There are huge concerns voiced about the integrity of women's sports from transgender women, but relative silence on the much more significant issues for women's sport of teenage girls' body image, representations in media, funding and more.

    None of which is related to the thread but rather is grandstanding.
    And he left links to 2 threads not remotely connected to the discussion. So I don't understand why I get named as pulling the thread off topic and not him.

    I won't post here again. No worries.


  • #268
    RandRuns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Probably not helpful to revisit everything on that thread, but it worth remembering Baudelaire's maxim that “the devil’s best trick is to persuade you that he does not exist.”

    Do you post this in every single thread on here?


  • #269
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Mod Note: Okay, thanks everyone for your input on this topic. I think we've exhausted it for now, but it hasn't been ignored.


This discussion has been closed.
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