Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

aloooof · 07-01-2022 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432454#Comment_118432454

1st start for 22 year old Sean French.

2nd start for 21 year old Jack Crowley.

21st start for 22 year old, Craig Casey.

4th start for 21 year old, Thomas Ahern.

40th start for 24 year old, Fineen Wycherley.

6th start for 22 year old, John Hodnett.

25th start for 24 year old, Gavin Coombes.

But Munster don't back youth.

phog · 07-01-2022 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432549#Comment_118432549

And that Crowley lad is starting ahead of an auld guy called Healy

RichieRich_89 · 07-01-2022 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432549#Comment_118432549

22 isn't really that young at provincial level, is it? Hardly George North making his international debut against the Springboks at 18 stuff.

arsebiscuits1 · 07-01-2022 1:36pm

Great to see Crowley getting a start in a big fixture.

I wonder if this was a bit of a reaction to Ben not exactly lighting things up last week. While Crowley is still untested he certainly is capable of making things happen.

I think he's a tremendously exciting player.

arsebiscuits1 · 07-01-2022 1:40pm

Late to the party on this and mildly off topic but what do you think will come of Jack O'Sullivan?

I know he had a stuttering start to his career with some back to back injuries but he looked a super star at underage. Himself and Doris were neck and neck before his injury curtailed his U20 season.

He looks a really athletic player in a similar mould to Max Deegan.

I know he was just re-signed, but where would he fit in Munsters plans going forward with the likes of Coombes and JOD as the obvious choices for 8 and Kendellan and Hodnett having decent success there although both probably more suited to 7 at senior level

aloooof · 07-01-2022 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432733#Comment_118432733

Possibly so. I suspect they planned on giving him minutes of the bench last week, but with it being a 2 point game near the end, Healy's range was possibly a reason he was left on.

I like Crowley every time I see him play and have a suspicion he'll be Munster's starting 10 in the medium term.

aloooof · 07-01-2022 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432721#Comment_118432721

I said similar to another poster recently, but if your expectation of backing youth is playing 18 year old's against the Springboks, then the issue is with your expectation.

Munster have 7 starter's 24 or under here. By any measure that's backing youth.

07-01-2022 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432721#Comment_118432721

There's a lesson in that he's had so many Injuries he started to regress years ago. Man's only 29

phog · 07-01-2022 3:21pm

Another point to note is that 20 or the 23 match day squad and 13 of the 15 starters are Munster products.

Lost Ormond · 07-01-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433520#Comment_118433520

Just 3 from Limerick. really need to sort out that. as great that those numbers are its terrible that Limerick city isnt producing the numbers that it should

phog · 07-01-2022 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433568#Comment_118433568

They're from Munster, you know the province in which the team is based. Try and be happy once in a while.

FrannoFan · 07-01-2022 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432549#Comment_118432549

So your take away from the Van Gran era was that he backed youth?

Jump_In_Jack · 07-01-2022 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432761#Comment_118432761

I would have:

4 Beirne/Wycherley/Hurley/Edogbo

5 Kleyn/Jenkins/Ahern/O'Connor/Kelly

6 O'Mahony/O'Donoghue/Kendellen

7 Hodnett/Cloete/Daly

8 Coombes/O'Sullivan/Okeke

Jenkins might be good when fit but has been injured non-stop for months now, so for next season I'd expect he will be let him go and hopefully senior contracts will be given out a to both O'Connor and Kelly.

The depth at 6 and 8 is good, and players are flexible to cover 7 too.

aloooof · 07-01-2022 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433688#Comment_118433688

Nope, that's just a strawman.

One take away is that Van Graan, both this season and last, has backed youth an awful lot more than has been repeatedly made out on here by a select few. Does that clarify things for you?

RichieRich_89 · 07-01-2022 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433028#Comment_118433028

That isn't my expectation. I'm just mentioning it for extra context.

I would say - when talking about this level of rugby - making a first start at 19, 20, maybe 21 would be young. 22 would be average at best, in my view. And 23 or older (for someone who has been in the set-up since or before their U20 days) would be on the old side. 18 would be very young and 17 extremely young.

Of course maybe a player focuses on 7s for a bit, or that type of thing, and that delays their introduction.

Saying 25th start for 24-yo Gavin Coombes is an example of backing youth is clutching at straws if you ask me. Barry John retired at 27.

phog · 07-01-2022 4:01pm

Lets see what age the players are then pick an age younger than that to say that's backing youth

aloooof · 07-01-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433857#Comment_118433857

You start by calling for extra context and finish by mentioning Barry John, so I think I'll leave you to it, Richie.

07-01-2022 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433857#Comment_118433857

Barry john played in the 60s or something it's a pretty pointless reference.

Coombes will be well past 50 caps by 25 that's plenty. I'd wager a lot of this is more a hit back at the guys on here co stantly claiming munster are not producing homegrown talent. It had been an issue but the squad is full Is quality homegrown players under 25 now the starting 15 tomorrow has 7 of them. Despite that at some point in the next few days some fan of another province will be on here lamenting munsters not backing homegrown talent and just paying for South Africans instead of backing homegrown players

RichieRich_89 · 07-01-2022 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433920#Comment_118433920

I think what I've spelt out is reasonable. 19-year olds Okeke and Campbell looked good recently. Would it be an example of Munster backing youth in three years time if they were first introduced at the age of 22?

Lost Ormond · 07-01-2022 4:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433634#Comment_118433634

Limerick is the second biggest population base. If Munster is to properly challenge for trophies which i assume you want then it needs to get far more from that base.

The numbers coming from south east, west cork, county clare especially Ennis more than Killaloe etc where there has always been few players are great but Limerick city needs to be sorted out

Must love hardship · 07-01-2022 4:08pm

Is conor murray Injured??

Not in the 23 last week either

mun1 · 07-01-2022 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433634#Comment_118433634

How predictable , Lost Ormonds anti limerick bias comes shining through yet again .

Cant ever get behind the province, just nitpicks in a very predictable fashion

Must have taken some right batterings from limerick clubs in his youth :)

07-01-2022 4:19pm

I think it's a legitimate question to be fair and doesn't have to be a negative or anti limerick. If limerick was producing talent relative to other areas (pr more than other areas as they would have traditionally) it would be great for the club. I suspect pary of it is the concentration on hurling there currently its probably cyclical and hopefully it comes back around

phog · 07-01-2022 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433974#Comment_118433974

Can you not enjoy the fact the Munster are fielding a team where the vast majority are home grown products of The Province?

aloooof · 07-01-2022 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433920#Comment_118433920

Even by his own metrics, 6 of the 7 would have been young when they got their first start.

Lost Ormond · 07-01-2022 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434049#Comment_118434049

Its an extremely legitimate question though as how can Munster ever get past the barriers it continously fails at in the pro game if its second biggest market for age grade playing numbers isnt close to pulling its weight in the development of professional players.

It is nothing to do with being anti Limerick. Which im not. funny as it was claimed a while back here i was anti Cork as well.....

07-01-2022 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434084#Comment_118434084

To be fair other parts of the province have only righted themselves in the last few years. Probably not the time to he throwing stones I'm sure they will come right

mun1 · 07-01-2022 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434043#Comment_118434043

Doesn’t have to be negative but always is from lost ormond. Hurling is the name of the game in limerick at the moment but the schools system isn’t working in limerick as well as you would think . 150 + players playing SC every year in city schools and very few coming out of it.

Schools need to get the balance right between training to win rugby matches to training to play rugby . At the moment it heavily the former.

Anyway , been covered on other threads and great to see a majority home produced munster team taking the field tomorrow night.

07-01-2022 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434111#Comment_118434111

Ya fair enough.

I have fairly high hopes for tomorrow tbh. Hopefully the extra week allows guys to get a bit sharper after the downtime

Former Former Former · 07-01-2022 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433811#Comment_118433811

It's great to see all these young guys in the XV.

However, you could also aski if Snyman, Jenkins, Cloete, Kleyn, Murray, Earls were available, would we be seeing a different XV? Does van Graan really trust the youth or is he just stuck for bodies?

Lost Ormond · 07-01-2022 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434097#Comment_118434097

Its not that other parts of the province have only righted themselves. Its more theyve had more players seen and got the access to better quality of rugby..

Many players on city rugby clubs in the past were from Tipp, Kerry etc but had to move to Limerick/Cork to play senior rugby

Im not throwing stones btw...

Lost Ormond · 07-01-2022 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434111#Comment_118434111

Im not always negative but the issues in Limerick have been bubbling for years and there's room for both hurling and rugby. Care to expand if the schools system isnt working in Limerick then what should be done in its place?

The rugby the schools in Limerick are playing is far better now than it was in past and ive been to quite a few games this season be it u15s, JCT, SCT....

phog · 07-01-2022 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434084#Comment_118434084

get past the barriers

There isn't a god given right to win anything and having players from Limerick doesn't give a team a right of passage.

If the balance of the team for tomorrow night came from Limerick we have the doom and gloom about the rest of the province, I follow Munster I don't cheer any louder when a player from Limerick scores a try for us any more than when a player brought in from a far scores for us. It's a Munster score they all count.

I'm also of the belief no matter what I'd say about how Munster should try and get more players from Limerick into their squad you'd have a different view and as neither of us are in a position to do anything about it I think it's best left to those that can.

There was a view that when Munster would move to one training centre in Limerick it would kill off Cork players and tomorrow night shows how wrong that was. Maybe people should have some faith in the province.

FrannoFan · 07-01-2022 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433811#Comment_118433811

I think he has picked youth when no other options are available to him. Casey and coombes are the only two he has used in the big game 23.

Plenty of talent coming through, I think if whoever comes in for him has a very good squad.

07-01-2022 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434282#Comment_118434282

Yes he would because he's been doing it when players are healthy also

07-01-2022 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434285#Comment_118434285

There was an issue In previous years where you played for one of about 4 schools or you didn't get looked at. Not sure it was specific to counties because it was the same within cork and I assume limerick. Thankfully thats been rectified

Lost Ormond · 07-01-2022 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434349#Comment_118434349

A team with more players from the second biggest population and playing population base definitely gives the province a far better chance of success. If the team had far more from Limerick there may be more calls for the rest of province to produce more but when one of your main playing basis has went from producing a lot of players to producing very little for the pro rugby team then big questions have to be asked

Actually people like us can help through supporting clubs, getting involved in clubs - coaching and attending coaching courses etc to learn and develop more as a coach to pass on knowledge to the kids...

Saying id just oppose whatever you say about Limerick is avoiding the question. I think the whole clubs v schools needs to be sorted and if that meant just schools played from september to march even at first year level up to the cup teams then so be it with clubs left to have cup competitions after that to maintain links to clubs

So what would you do? Surely you have an opinion on what could be done to help things in Limerick?

07-01-2022 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434410#Comment_118434410

What's a big game? Tomorrow's an interpro as was last week

aloooof · 07-01-2022 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434282#Comment_118434282

I don't think there's any suggestion Earls and Murray are injured?

And equally could've started Tadhg Beirne ahead of Ahern. Or JOD ahead of Hodnett. Or Conway or Gallagher ahead of French. He even could've started Healy, who's a young guy himself, ahead of Crowley with the Champions Cup games coming up.

But he didn't.

Equally, there's an element of squad planning involved. You know you're going to encounter injuries. JJ Hanrahan, for example, was let go last season in large part because guys like Crowley and Healy were coming up. You can't then say he's only playing them because he's stuck for bodies.

07-01-2022 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434429#Comment_118434429

Its a conversion that can be had bur it's fairly depressing for you that a team for an interpro has just been named full of young homegrown talent and your first response is to ignore the team and ask why limericks not producing more players right now

Lost Ormond · 07-01-2022 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434521#Comment_118434521

Im not ignoring it and it is fantastic hell ive coached sides against several of those who're in the 23 and seen others playing from age of 13 and up. But the Limerick issue is a major shadow over the excellent work thats going on elsewhere and needs to be questioned whats going on/why its not better

mun1 · 07-01-2022 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434429#Comment_118434429

what “Big questions need to be asked “ ?

Bit of a whiff of Irish Indo off of you.

Limerick aren’t producing enough players in your eyes and it seems to really bother only you !

I’m from limerick and while id like if more players came from my own club, it doesn’t bother me as much as id much prefer if munster performed better on a more consistent basis.

If all those players emanated from one, two or three clubs, so what ?

im sure there are more qualified and dedicated people than you or me dong their best to do what’s right for munster rugby., and they are doing a very good job lately in identifying talent. Doesn’t matter what school/club they come from.

its not always a big conspiracy where “big questions need to be asked “

Former Former Former · 07-01-2022 6:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434482#Comment_118434482

I don't want to speculate in the current climate on where Earls and Murray are but they didn't play last week, didn't train this week and aren't playing this weekend. It's fair to assume they're not available.

Conway and JOD played 80 last week and will be playing again next week. That really only leaves Beirne. I don't think leaving out Gallagher counts, since he hardly ever features at the best of times.

Munster told us they wanted to keep Hanrahan but couldn't. Maybe that was bollocks, I don't know.

Again, it's great to see these guys playing but the last six weeks have been a bit freakish and on balance, JVG has not been good for bringing young guys through.

Lost Ormond · 07-01-2022 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434714#Comment_118434714

Talking about indo bit harsh but the questions are around coaching standards etc, what rugby is being played at all levels. So much is talked about rugby in Limerick. It was always a spot where everyone played in comparison to lot of other parts of country where it more a specific part of the community who played. If people arent coming from one of your cities and traditional strongholds then theres big issues at hand and not good in the long term. If players are only coming from a small number of clubs etc then its not good in long term as these clubs may not always be able to produce players in long term.

Cookiemunster · 07-01-2022 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434750#Comment_118434750

Where did you get the information that Earls and Murray didn't train this week? I've not seen that mentioned anywhere.

Poorside · 07-01-2022 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434084#Comment_118434084

This will start to change in the next year or 2 with the Limerick clubs now starting to be more competitive in the AIL.

Cookiemunster · 07-01-2022 7:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435355#Comment_118435355

You mean Munsters and Garryowen who are stacked with academy players from Cork?

aloooof · 07-01-2022 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434750#Comment_118434750

I mean, he promoted 9 guys from the academy, with JJ, Sweetnam, Marshall, CJ, Holland, O’Donnell and Cronin leaving for various reasons. He was hardly hoping he wasn’t going to have to use those guys.

At what point does it becoming “trusting youth” rather than “stuck for bodies”?

I genuinely feel if an analysis was done, it would show JVG has begun trusting young players far more this season and last. And that’s in large part because the players coming thru are better than before.

phog · 07-01-2022 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435691#Comment_118435691

At this stage aloooof I think you're wasting your time, they'll see what they want to see or make up what they want to make up.

Former Former Former · 07-01-2022 9:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435691#Comment_118435691

JVG had no choice but to promote from within though. How else could he replace that number of departing players? He still managed to get yet another big saffer in the door BTW.

I dunno, it seems unlikely he had a Damascene conversion to the merits of young local guys at the exact time he ran out of alternatives. Looks to me like he's playing these guys out of necessity.

As a Munster fan, I'll be very glad to see the back of him.

Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Comments