What controller should I buy?

Zascar · 07-10-2009 3:53pm #1

EDIT: As this thread has so much info in it I have changed the title and we can use this to discuss what controllers people are thinking of buying etc.

--

So I need to buy a new controller. I was using an M-Audio Torq Xponent, which I loved and served me very well, but I think its time I moved to Traktor. There is a reason dozens of pros use Traktor and almost none use Torq...

But, what controller do I get? There are loads out there and I want to make sure I evaluate all options and make the best decision on what to get.

So, I really liked the Xponent, the layout etc. The Vestax VCI-100 seems to be the equivalent for Traktor, and www.djtechtools.com do a custom one they support for software etc (not sure if I can get it over here though). Also it needs an extra soundcard which is a pain. However Then there is the Vestax VCI-300 which has an inbuilt soundcard and is higher quality etc - however it comes with Serato Itch, and I am not sure if the Mappings for Traktor Pro are any good.

Apart from that, are there any others I should consider? Or different directions all together?

Cheers

ED E · 07-10-2009 4:01pm

Just for the looks

acman · 07-10-2009 4:10pm

Yeah, I'm migrating to Traktor too...I too would be grateful for any info on controllers!

Where / how did your stuff get nicked Zascar?

SteveDon · 07-10-2009 4:12pm

http://www.thomann.de/ie/behringer_ddm_4000.htm

I know i keep going on about my own mixer but like it really is amazing for controlling traktor

acman · 07-10-2009 4:18pm

SteveDon wrote: »

http://www.thomann.de/ie/behringer_ddm_4000.htm

I know i keep going on about my own mixer but like it really is amazing for controlling traktor

Cool, it does seem to have all the bells and whistles but it doesn't seem to be very portable...it looks about the same size as the DJM 800, am I right?

If it is as big as at looks, are there any recommendations for a more portable choice?

Zascar · 07-10-2009 4:42pm

Cheers Steve yes that was another one to be considered, I remember you saying it before. I'd like to get a demo of how it works, I always thought it was primarily a normal DJ mixer, with a few Midi controls in it. I remember when it first came out I was trying to get Behringer to send me one to do a 'product test' for my website. They actually did send me a DJM700 believe it or not, I actually still have it haha

Behringer used to have a terrible reputation when it comes to quality - but I think some of their stuff, this included,is quite good. Its essentially a DJM800 copy, and for the money its a staggering buy.

Acman, don't you use Serato anyway? Why the move to Traktor? I hear Serato is great but not too sure on the look of 'Itch'. The VCI300 looks excellent but comes with Itch and aparantly is lacking in fx. VCI100SE seems to be a safe ber for now.

Although, I just read about this

Allen & Heath Xone DX. Serious Drool...

ED E · 07-10-2009 4:51pm

£999

I'm going to buy lotto tickets.

Zascar · 07-10-2009 5:03pm

I'd almost consider forking out for it, might be worth saving up for. Still though, Serato Itch, hmm, not convinced.

milltown · 07-10-2009 5:38pm

acman wrote: »

Where / how did your stuff get nicked Zascar?

^ What he said.

Did we miss a thread?

Zascar · 07-10-2009 5:42pm

Not really a story I'm shouting around, but left all my gear in the boot of my car in town and it got broken into and all of it nicked. Gutted. Very unlucky but totally my own fault. Serious lesson learned though.

conky_05 · 07-10-2009 5:54pm

Zascar wrote: »

I'd almost consider forking out for it, might be worth saving up for. Still though, Serato Itch, hmm, not convinced.

Do it Colly

Allen & Heath vs Berrhinger

No competition

acman · 07-10-2009 6:12pm

Zascar wrote: »

Acman, don't you use Serato anyway? Why the move to Traktor? I hear Serato is great but not too sure on the look of 'Itch'. The VCI300 looks excellent but comes with Itch and aparantly is lacking in fx. VCI100SE seems to be a safe ber for now.

Yeah, I use Serato and it is fantastic...a rock solid application! Only complaint is that it only plays two tracks at a time and has no effects (which are redundant anyway if you have a decent mixer).

Bottom line is I have no regrets at all with Serato, I'm moving to Traktor simply because it has many more features I need to use. Oh, and no messing around with cables either :-)

jtsuited · 07-10-2009 6:33pm

Right this might be controversial but here's my 2 cents.

Move to Traktor and get the new Audio 2 dj interface from Native Instruments. It means you'll be able to connect into a mixer and then just mix from there. Then get a cheapo midi controller for the internal effects in traktor.

All the specific dj midi controllers are essentially toys and really just established companies trying to hang on to the side of a sinking ship as everyone goes into the world of laptop djing.

acman · 07-10-2009 6:51pm

jtsuited wrote: »

Move to Traktor and get the new Audio 2 dj interface from Native Instruments. It means you'll be able to connect into a mixer and then just mix from there. Then get a cheapo midi controller for the internal effects in traktor.
.

Either that or get the M-Audio Uno (if you have a DJM 800)

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Uno.html

jtsuited · 07-10-2009 6:54pm

acman wrote: »

Either that or get the M-Audio Uno (if you have a DJM 800)

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Uno.html

is there a midi out on the djm 800?

If so then yeah. Actually i have that uno thingamagoo. anyone want it they can pm me because i don't use it.

Zascar · 07-10-2009 7:08pm

jtsuited wrote: »

Right this might be controversial but here's my 2 cents.

Move to Traktor and get the new Audio 2 dj interface from Native Instruments. It means you'll be able to connect into a mixer and then just mix from there. Then get a cheapo midi controller for the internal effects in traktor.

All the specific dj midi controllers are essentially toys and really just established companies trying to hang on to the side of a sinking ship as everyone goes into the world of laptop djing.

Thanks Jeff. Yes if I get something like the Vestax VCI-100 I was definitely planning on getting the 'NA Audio 2 DJ' - I hear its a great piece of kit and works well. Yes it would be nice to then have my choice of mixers, I'd probably get a UREI 1601 which is a great mixer for the money - plus at gigs etc I could just play in to whatever mixer was there.

However, what I'm not really too keen on is that with this type of setup, you are required to spend more time on the laptop - I liked the way with Torq etc you only really use the laptop for choosing tracks, but this way you have to actually click play - and you do not have jog wheels to move the track around. I'd much prefer a solution that emulates the traditional decks and a mixer setup.

Comments?

jtsuited · 07-10-2009 7:23pm

Zascar wrote: »

However, what I'm not really too keen on is that with this type of setup, you are required to spend more time on the laptop - I liked the way with Torq etc you only really use the laptop for choosing tracks, but this way you have to actually click play - and you do not have jog wheels to move the track around. I'd much prefer a solution that emulates the traditional decks and a mixer setup.

Comments?

With the needle drop function on traktor, along with the sync functions pressing play and finding where you want to start takes about 1 second. Was using serato the other night and actually noticed that you do more looking at the computer screen when cueing up than you do with traktor.

with any decent traktor setup (properly done) you would only be looking at the computer for track selection anywho.

romarr · 07-10-2009 7:44pm

to jog wheel or not to jog wheel is what it comes down to I reckon

if i was do it I think i'd go for a uc33e and something like a novation nocturn. Crossfader and rubbery buttons on the nocturn, and everything else on the uc33e. you could probably map faders to the waveform which would emulate the jog wheels if you really wanted to

it sure aint a ...

Zascar wrote: »

traditional decks and a mixer setup.

Zascar · 07-10-2009 7:52pm

jtsuited wrote: »

With the needle drop function on traktor, along with the sync functions pressing play and finding where you want to start takes about 1 second. Was using serato the other night and actually noticed that you do more looking at the computer screen when cueing up than you do with traktor.

with any decent traktor setup (properly done) you would only be looking at the computer for track selection anywho.

Pardon my ignorance but wtf is needle drop?

Jeff it's a pity I missed your meetup but if you would be kind enough to give me a run through of your setup mate I'd love to drop by and check it out some time.

Romarr that does look interesting but don't think its the kind of thing I'm looking for, but cheers!

jtsuited · 07-10-2009 8:20pm

Zascar wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance but wtf is needle drop?

Jeff it's a pity I missed your meetup but if you would be kind enough to give me a run through of your setup mate I'd love to drop by and check it out some time.

Romarr that does look interesting but don't think its the kind of thing I'm looking for, but cheers!

needle drop just means being able to jump to any part of the track by clicking at the relevant place in the waveform. the great thing in traktor is that you can jump around the entire track and it will stay in sync with whatever else.

right now, i've one setup for live (which is fairly complicated involving ableton, a load of vst's, the uc33e, etc. - a little like deadmau5's setup without the monome) and another for djing.

My djing setup is simple right now. Just traktor being controlled by a uc33e, and using the internal mixing of traktor. Using the apogee duet as my main output and my macbook pro's headphone output as my cue output.

Not ideal so what I'm going to do is get a NI Audio 2 (whatever it's called) and then connect into two separate channels on whatever mixer the club has (99.99999% of the time it's a djm800) and then use the uc33e to control the fx in traktor (as the fx on a djm 800 or pretty unuseable imo).

Only reason I'm doing this change is I prefer to be centre stage when playing and that's where the club mixer tends to be. Dragging a big midi controller into a booth does not appeal to me, as you end up being all over the place between the club mixer, your laptop, controller etc.

milltown · 07-10-2009 9:08pm

Zascar wrote: »

Not really a story I'm shouting around, but left all my gear in the boot of my car in town and it got broken into and all of it nicked. Gutted. Very unlucky but totally my own fault. Serious lesson learned though.

OT again I know but why was it your fault? Was the gear on view? Was it where you parked?

Back on topic, I think my money would be spent on the Vestax VCI-300 if there's decent Traktor support available. Otherwise the VCI-100 for an out of the box solution. I really don't like the look of the DJTechtools customised ones though. Looks like it's for playing Street Fighter IV, not music.

Jev/N · 07-10-2009 9:23pm

jtsuited wrote: »

Was using serato the other night and actually noticed that you do more looking at the computer screen when cueing up than you do with traktor.

No offence intended but that's what your headphones are for!

On top of that, you can select your tracks from the record or CD if you wish

Serato isn't intended to be a "synced" program like Traktor is, something I prefer but different strokes and all that

Zascar · 07-10-2009 9:24pm

The VCI-300 is definitely very good but apparently it lacks in the effects (buttons) department. Not really sure if that is such a big deal to me though, I don't use a lot of effects - but possibly cause they are not great in Torq, I hear they are way way better in Traktor. The main problem is that the VCI-300 is not a standard midi controller and you need a 'translator' to get it to talk to other software like Traktor. I tried the Xponent wit Traktor and it was about 90% - but I just did not like it cause it was not 100%. Although djtechtools will apparently be coming out with a map themselves and if they do, I'd be happy.

Their VCI-100SE has a different version with arcade buttons but I would not go for that one, I think the normal one is grand.

http://www.djtechtools.com/2008/10/06/vci-100-vs-vci-300/#more-790 this is a good review of the 100 vs 300

MikeHoncho · 07-10-2009 9:49pm

Zascar wrote: »

Thanks Jeff. Yes if I get something like the Vestax VCI-100 I was definitely planning on getting the 'NA Audio 2 DJ' - I hear its a great piece of kit and works well. Yes it would be nice to then have my choice of mixers, I'd probably get a UREI 1601 which is a great mixer for the money - plus at gigs etc I could just play in to whatever mixer was there.

However, what I'm not really too keen on is that with this type of setup, you are required to spend more time on the laptop - I liked the way with Torq etc you only really use the laptop for choosing tracks, but this way you have to actually click play - and you do not have jog wheels to move the track around. I'd much prefer a solution that emulates the traditional decks and a mixer setup.

Comments?

You could always get something like an M Audio Trigger Finger to trigger all your button functions like play and sync and for jumping to q points etc.

Laundry · 07-10-2009 10:08pm

You should defo get this Colly!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Allen-Heath-Xone-3D-Hardly-Used-Boxed-and-Unmarked_W0QQitemZ260486425853QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Mixers?hash=item3ca6336cfd&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1256wt_1165

You can also hook up TTs or even CD decks as well if need be, hand for everything not mention parties etc.... Sound quality unreal as is build quality and it doesn't cost the earth anymore. Works a treat with Traktor as well as it what Richie Hawtin used for ages.

jtsuited · 07-10-2009 10:22pm

Laundry wrote: »

You should defo get this Colly!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Allen-Heath-Xone-3D-Hardly-Used-Boxed-and-Unmarked_W0QQitemZ260486425853QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Mixers?hash=item3ca6336cfd&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1256wt_1165

You can also hook up TTs or even CD decks as well if need be, hand for everything not mention parties etc.... Sound quality unreal as is build quality and it doesn't cost the earth anymore. Works a treat with Traktor as well as it what Richie Hawtin used for ages.

that's gonna be whopper expensive by the time bidding really gets going.

brianc27 · 08-10-2009 1:35am

jtsuited wrote: »

Right this might be controversial but here's my 2 cents.

Move to Traktor and get the new Audio 2 dj interface from Native Instruments. It means you'll be able to connect into a mixer and then just mix from there. Then get a cheapo midi controller for the internal effects in traktor.

All the specific dj midi controllers are essentially toys and really just established companies trying to hang on to the side of a sinking ship as everyone goes into the world of laptop djing.

completely agree, those dj specific controllers just look too fisher price for me, what i do is hook up traktor to an external mixer (djm700 in my case) then i have a small micro controller, the faderfox dx2 is the one i use, has everything you need on it for great 2 deck mixing control, plus its really small & compact, i hardly ever touch my laptop for mixing http://www.faderfox.de/html/dx2_product_page.html

i also use an m-audio trigger finger to control the 3rd deck, i could have got another faderfox micro controller and attached it in unison with the dx2 but i didnt have the cash at the time and the trigger finger was only 100 quid.

the faderfox isnt usb so you'll need a soundcard with mini in/out, most decent soundcards will have these. the trigger finger i hook up through usb.

Zascar · 08-10-2009 12:31pm

Right so the two I like most at the moment are the Allen & Heath Xone: DX as above, or the Vestax VCI-300.

VESTAX%20VCI300.jpg

Both come with Serato ITCH. Does anyone know what this is like? I'm assuming both can be posted to work with Traktor pro - but not 100% sure if they will work perfectly, as ywt neither seem to be 'traktor ready'.

The Xone: DX is not out yet and no idea when its due for release, plus its going to be about €1,300, whereas I can get a VCI-300 for half that right now.

VinylJunkie · 08-10-2009 12:40pm

Id get the vestax to be honest although it can't take advantage of the 4 decks that Serato itch/Traktor offers. If your not going to use 4 decks there is no point splashing out on the a&h.

jtsuited · 08-10-2009 12:46pm

you'll be able to map all the controls to traktor but the jog wheels will be a nightmare, trust me on this.
one of the main points of traktor is that you don't need jogwheels to navigate around.

seems nuts to spend that type of money on some sort of all-in-one solution when a good interface and a good controller will cost you about 200 euro altogether. when mixing at home mix internally in traktor with your controller, and then in clubs just use the club mixer.
Seems like the least amount of hassle.

Most of the big guys (dubfire, joris voorn, and josh wink come to mind) using traktor are still mixing on the club mixer (using one of the NI interfaces) and then having a separate small controller for traktor's internal effects (the faderfox seems to be very popular for this - great little controller, not mass produced so fairly pricey for what it is).
I know that doesn't intrinsically mean anything but it justs adds weight to the idea that simplest is best (good aul occam's razor). Buying one of those all in one thingamagoos is really just buying a fancy toy that overcomplicates things.

All imo of course.

Believe me, when you see how simple my setup is with traktor you'll see what i'm talking about.

joker77 · 08-10-2009 1:35pm

Have to agree here - I have the VCI-100 and I really can't see what lashing out an extra 900 on the A&H is going to give you for that money!
Simpler is better imo.

I'm prob around this evening if you want to take a look at the VCI-100 SE - you have my number yea?

Zascar · 08-10-2009 1:58pm

OK thanks guys - as much as the A&H looks great I'm not sure I can justify spending that amount of money for my actual still level - I'm hardly putting any real challenge to Hawtin lol!

Jeff and Neal I'd really appreciate a run though of your setups - I'll be in touch. I suppose just casue I'm so used to my current one and I'm totally not used to using traktor with beatgridding etc - will be interesting to see how it works without platters etc.

Thanks for the help and keep any other advice coming!

Zascar · 09-10-2009 3:41pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWl79ae6fkM

Finding it hard to ignore what a good solution this is....

VinylJunkie · 09-10-2009 3:46pm

Ean Golden is a great "controllerist" so he uses the vci to its full potential. Id go with the vci 100 if I where you. Don't mind Jeff he is only a producer :rolleyes:.
:pac:

Zascar · 09-10-2009 3:51pm

Yeah true enough. Joker has offered to give me a run through on his so I'm sure the standard will be plenty for me, I can always upgrade later if needed. I'm still also going to consider jeffs route, I'm very interested to see what its going to be like.

VJ out of interest what is your setup?

VinylJunkie · 09-10-2009 4:05pm

Two Technics 1210's, a CDJ-200, a CDJ-400, a DJM-600 and Torq 1.5.1 although I don't use Torq.

Oh and a lovely table and couch from Ikea.

joker77 · 09-10-2009 4:27pm

VinylJunkie wrote: »

Two Technics 1210's, a CDJ-200, a CDJ-400, a DJM-600 and Torq 1.5.1 although I don't use Torq.

Oh and a lovely table and couch from Ikea.

You mix from your couch?

ED E · 09-10-2009 4:41pm

Can you get skins for any of those controllers? Would be handy if you wanted to map a few apps.

Just as I watch that VCI 100 video I think its a laborious way of loading tracks. My TC is only a toy really but its system seems far easier to use. One large knob, twist to search up and down, press for folder in/out. Once you have the track you want just use left and right load buttons directly below. No shift clicking on hitting a button 20 times to get the track you want.

Same for the loop. Why not have one more button so that you adjust the pitch without using a pair of buttons.

More shifting for the faders....
Nice long faders though.
Headphone controls are a little overly optimized for space:p
And there's the skin....

jtsuited · 09-10-2009 4:51pm

Zascar wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWl79ae6fkM

Finding it hard to ignore what a good solution this is....

ok no offence here, but i get the feeling you don't understand how midi controllers or cc messages work?

the features in that video can be done on ANY controller. All that video is showing is features of traktor being controlled by a midi controller. It just happens that the layout of that controller apes a dj mixer.

the price of that controller is ridiculous!!!!!

Please please listen to me about this!!

jtsuited · 09-10-2009 4:52pm

VinylJunkie wrote: »

Ean Golden is a great "controllerist" so he uses the vci to its full potential. Id go with the vci 100 if I where you. Don't mind Jeff he is only a producer :rolleyes:.
:pac:

haha, yes because the dj world is known for it's technical aptitude.

VinylJunkie · 09-10-2009 5:02pm

jtsuited wrote: »

haha, yes because the dj world is known for it's technical aptitude.

Now now none of your big words.

VinylJunkie · 09-10-2009 5:07pm

However jtsuited is right, I have an oxygen 8v2 keyboard and have it mapped to both Traktor and Torq to carry out the exact same functions. In torq its a simple right click the twist procedure where as in Tarktor you have to go into preferences and manually assign each function.

milltown · 09-10-2009 9:47pm

Zascar wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWl79ae6fkM

Finding it hard to ignore what a good solution this is....

I'm actually less convinced about the VCI-100 after watching that! Have a look at this and see if you still think it's worth the €200, plus sound card, premium over the RMX?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWm4gxaof-A

I thought the Vestax would be my next upgrade but now it looks like I'll either be waiting for something else to come out, or saving for something fancier.

VinylJunkie · 13-10-2009 10:56am

Hey Colly just seen a vci-100 with the arcade buttons on adverts.
http://www.adverts.ie/showproduct.php?product=153458&cat=55

Zascar · 13-10-2009 11:19am

Thanks dude! Could be a good buy for cheap.

I'm going to go check out JT's setup and see what i think of that type of setup. I've been offered a Evolution uc33e for cheap so I think something like this would be a good start - one other contoller combined might do the job.

I was tempted to bid on that Allen & Heath Xone 3D on ebay, went for decent money, but I just can't justfiy that money. I was also looking at the Xone:2D - as I was reading some reviews and it won the "Best standalone controller" in some awards. Possibly another option also but might be overkill / more expensive than necessary. Gotta love A&H though.

VinylJunkie · 13-10-2009 11:22am

True the evolution thing is a perfect controller has enough pots and faders thats all you need really. I was looking at the new novation launchpad coming out next month looks great if you where thinking of going down the ableton route.

Zascar · 13-10-2009 11:27am

Nah not interested in Ableton really, gave it a shot but did not like it.

Traktor is for me really. I think the Evo could be good I'll be interested to see what its like to use. I find it strange how some people can use piano-like controllers for DJing - just seems weird to me, I'm just so used to the Xponent which is a dedicated DJ setup.

If I had the Evo first what would be a good second controller? Faderfox or something maybe?

VinylJunkie · 13-10-2009 11:33am

Well using a keyboard is the same as any other fancy controller they all send out a midi signal to control some parameter on the software interface. So I have all my loop/cue/efx buttons assigned to keys on the keyboard then the rotary pots control the efx. I use my mixer for EQ's and volume control.

Well if you can assign the small buttons on the evo to play/stop/sync/efx(on/off) for each deck you won't need another controller.

jtsuited · 13-10-2009 12:32pm

eh i just realised something. the vci 100 doesn't have an audio interface (like the xponent). That means it's 500 euro for a FRIGGIN MIDI CONTROLLER. That is an absolute joke. Seriously.

Zascar · 13-10-2009 12:58pm

Nope, you need a soundcard with it. A Native Instruments Audio 2 DJ etc.

I understand why you think its a joke but I don't think so really. The VCI-100 is one of the best selling DJ controllers out there - so lots of people are prepared to shell out.

I know you can technically achieve the same results with a few standard midi controllers but its not exactly the most elegant solution. The vestax is way neater and it has everything laid out the way you'd want it.

I may eat my words when I see your setup Jeff but I don't think it's an 'absolute joke'

jtsuited · 13-10-2009 1:09pm

ok so it's one of the best selling controllers out there.without stepping on too many toes, that's because there are millions of bedroom dj's who simply don't know better.

here's the thing. the 'dj market' is like the 'guitarist market'. technology develops and then the real money is made when that technology is simplified, overpriced and sold to people who don't know any better.
That vestax controller wreaks of that approach to me.