Waterford Station closes after landslide!

Jamie2k9 · 29-07-2019 8:16am

dowlingm wrote: »

what's the scope of this? In 2015 you mentioned some renewals as well: http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=75532&postcount=14 although there was some subsequent mention of additional works needing doing.

Am curious as to what IE activities will seemingly continue at Plunkett.

Would think an upgrade to CTC like Limerick recently.

Not sure what will continue but might refer to upstairs in current station where Bus Eireann have offices.

Del.Monte · 29-07-2019 2:37pm

dowlingm wrote: »

what's the scope of this? In 2015 you mentioned some renewals as well: http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=75532&postcount=14 although there was some subsequent mention of additional works needing doing.

Am curious as to what IE activities will seemingly continue at Plunkett.

Won't they need to take on a load of clerical/management staff to operate the new station?

ohographite · 31-07-2019 10:09pm

If this new station is built, will there be a new bridge right beside it going over the Suir to the city centre? I think I remember hearing something about a new bridge in Waterford, but I can't remember the details.

Del.Monte · 31-07-2019 10:21pm

It would save a lot of money if the line was closed south of Kilkenny especially since CIE plan to close Limerick Junction/Waterford as soon as they can.

Jamie2k9 · 31-07-2019 10:36pm

ohographite wrote: »

If this new station is built, will there be a new bridge right beside it going over the Suir to the city centre? I think I remember hearing something about a new bridge in Waterford, but I can't remember the details.

Yes a bridge is planned to current bus station for buses and pedestrians. Planning for that is with An Bord Pleanala

Working class heroes · 02-08-2019 9:57am

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would save a lot of money if the line was closed south of Kilkenny especially since CIE plan to close Limerick Junction/Waterford as soon as they can.

Can you link to where CIE plan to close the LJ/Waterford line please?

ohographite · 02-08-2019 11:09am

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would save a lot of money if the line was closed south of Kilkenny especially since CIE plan to close Limerick Junction/Waterford as soon as they can.

I really don't agree with the proposals to close the Limerick Junction - Waterford line. Clonmel has a similar population to Wexford or Sligo, so I think that keeping it connected to Dublin by train(with a change in either Waterford or Limerick Junction) while giving it a faster and more frequent service would make it busy enough to be safe from closure.
However, I won't dwell too much on this topic as it isn't directly relevant to this thread.

Harry Palmr · 02-08-2019 11:12am

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would save a lot of money if the line was closed south of Kilkenny especially since CIE plan to close Limerick Junction/Waterford as soon as they can.

The trains from Kilkenny will be bursting when the NQP is open

Jamie2k9 · 02-08-2019 11:23am

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would save a lot of money if the line was closed south of Kilkenny especially since CIE plan to close Limerick Junction/Waterford as soon as they can.

Unfortunately Limerick J has given the IE the headache of the fastest growing route (% terms) in 2018 with numbers up 17.6%

Del.Monte · 02-08-2019 1:11pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Can you link to where CIE plan to close the LJ/Waterford line please?

Oh please, let's just enjoy the good weather.

Working class heroes · 02-08-2019 2:37pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Oh please, let's just enjoy the good weather.

So you can’t verify what you said then?
Normal nonsense posting from you.

end of the road · 02-08-2019 8:42pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

So you can’t verify what you said then?
Normal nonsense posting from you.

unfortunately there are never going to be links with CIE stating that they are running down lines to closure. we would all love them to exist but they don't.
however the evidence is there even if it's not written down. especially in terms of limerick to waterford and ballybroaphy to limerick via nenagh.

Working class heroes · 02-08-2019 10:07pm

end of the road wrote: »

unfortunately there are never going to be links with CIE stating that they are running down lines to closure. we would all love them to exist but they don't.
however the evidence is there even if it's not written down. especially in terms of limerick to waterford and ballybroaphy to limerick via nenagh.

What evidence. Provide please.
Just because the anti CIE brigade around here says it’s so doesn’t actually make it so.

road_high · 02-08-2019 11:59pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

It would save a lot of money if the line was closed south of Kilkenny especially since CIE plan to close Limerick Junction/Waterford as soon as they can.

Whatever about the Limerick Junction line I see absolutely no need to close the line south of Kilkenny. The passenger numbers are decent, timetable while not overly generous is pretty decent service level too. The last thing the M7/N7 is more traffic into Dublin taken off the rail line

end of the road · 03-08-2019 12:43am

Working class heroes wrote: »

What evidence. Provide please.
Just because the anti CIE brigade around here says it’s so doesn’t actually make it so.

in the case of limerick to waterford, the line mostly renewed but no speed improvements in return. refusal to increase the services to something useful and meaningful.
ballybroaphy to limerick, refusal to do what needs to be done to increase speeds and part of the line hasn't actually been renewed i believe.
if the service provision on both lines in itself isn't evidence enough then i'm not sure what else could be apart from an admission from the hourses mouth and that isn't going to happen.

road_high wrote: »

Whatever about the Limerick Junction line I see absolutely no need to close the line south of Kilkenny. The passenger numbers are decent, timetable while not overly generous is pretty decent service level too. The last thing the M7/N7 is more traffic into Dublin taken off the rail line

he's being sarcastic. he's not actually suggesting the waterford dublin line should be closed south of kilkenny.

Working class heroes · 03-08-2019 7:59am

end of the road wrote: »

in the case of limerick to waterford, the line mostly renewed but no speed improvements in return. refusal to increase the services to something useful and meaningful.
ballybroaphy to limerick, refusal to do what needs to be done to increase speeds and part of the line hasn't actually been renewed i believe.
if the service provision on both lines in itself isn't evidence enough then i'm not sure what else could be apart from an admission from the hourses mouth and that isn't going to happen.

he's being sarcastic. he's not actually suggesting the waterford dublin line should be closed south of kilkenny.

That’s just your opinion which may be right or wrong. It’s not a fact until you can provide evidence of same.
I actually forgot who I was talking to here, as if a straight answer was in your bed you’d sleep on the floor.

ExoPolitic · 06-08-2019 10:27am

I used that Waterford to Limerick Junction train for the first time last week. Can honestly say that they should link the service from LJ to Limerick with this and just use one train. Otherwise it just made so much operational effort at LJ to remove the Waterford train from the platform, bring in the Limerick train and then send that out and bring the Waterford train back in to then go back to Waterford.

The loading wasn't great for a four car unit but it would of easily filled the two car that was on the Limerick line. Perhaps running the two car up and down all day between Waterford and Limerick is a better use of resources?

Jamie2k9 · 06-08-2019 10:37am

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I used that Waterford to Limerick Junction train for the first time last week. Can honestly say that they should link the service from LJ to Limerick with this and just use one train. Otherwise it just made so much operational effort at LJ to remove the Waterford train from the platform, bring in the Limerick train and then send that out and bring the Waterford train back in to then go back to Waterford.

The loading wasn't great for a four car unit but it would of easily filled the two car that was on the Limerick line. Perhaps running the two car up and down all day between Waterford and Limerick is a better use of resources?

Its only moved off the platform until works on new Cork platform are completed.

I do agree if the train went to Limerick it would be much better.

ExoPolitic · 06-08-2019 10:48am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its only moved off the platform until works on new Cork platform are completed.

I do agree if the train went to Limerick it would be much better.

That's good news, couldn't believe how much faffing around there was.

Jamie2k9 · 06-08-2019 11:23am

ExoPolitic wrote: »

That's good news, couldn't believe how much faffing around there was.

Once its a 3 car its usually not moved, anything bigger and its moved.

Passengers on the 13.15 Heuston/Waterford have been suffering for years because they dropped the 4 car to 3 avoid such movements at Limerick J.

Jamie2k9 · 14-11-2019 2:54pm

https://www.wlrfm.com/2019/11/14/funding-waterford-train-station/#

Government have confirmed they will fund the relocation of the station. NTA said they wouldn't fund it a few weeks ago as did the Dep of Transport. Final planning due to be submitted by end of month.

Del.Monte · 14-11-2019 3:28pm

Fine offices in the old station - will they be providing replacements at the new station or will it just be a bus shelter and bare platform?

Jamie2k9 · 14-11-2019 3:36pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Fine offices in the old station - will they be providing replacements at the new station or will it just be a bus shelter and bare platform?

The offices are staying.

The new station will be far better than the current one for passengers...

Del.Monte · 14-11-2019 9:34pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The offices are staying.

The new station will be far better than the current one for passengers...

That wouldn't be difficult! First CIE closed the Comeragh Bar in the red brick building adjacent to the new building; then the buffet which was always a kip and was worse after it was privatised; then they moved the buses over to the station and filled in more of the platforms at the west end of the station; then the buses moved out again; then the Rosslare line was closed; then the cliff fell down......What are the existing offices used for?

Jamie2k9 · 14-11-2019 9:56pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

That wouldn't be difficult! First CIE closed the Comeragh Bar in the red brick building adjacent to the new building; then the buffet which was always a kip and was worse after it was privatised; then they moved the buses over to the station and filled in more of the platforms at the west end of the station; then the buses moved out again; then the Rosslare line was closed; then the cliff fell down......What are the existing offices used for?

I think its mostly Bus Éireann these days.

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 10:43pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I think its mostly Bus Éireann these days.

Top floor is Bus Éireann. First floor is Irish Rail District office for the Waterford area.

L1011 · 15-11-2019 8:34am

Del.Monte wrote: »

That wouldn't be difficult! First CIE closed the Comeragh Bar in the red brick building adjacent to the new building; then the buffet which was always a kip and was worse after it was privatised; then they moved the buses over to the station and filled in more of the platforms at the west end of the station; then the buses moved out again; then the Rosslare line was closed; then the cliff fell down......What are the existing offices used for?

If a privatised buffet closed it was because it wasn't making money. Are you volunteering to subvent it personally?

Likely applied to the bar also

The justification for public money for public transport and facilities does not extend to bars and buffets

MrAbyss · 16-11-2019 12:19am

Waterford station was always a dump and in the wrong place. Glad to see this happen.

Del.Monte · 16-11-2019 2:12pm

L1011 wrote: »

If a privatised buffet closed it was because it wasn't making money. Are you volunteering to subvent it personally?

Likely applied to the bar also

The justification for public money for public transport and facilities does not extend to bars and buffets

You can't see a pattern - and the company that presided over it?

Del.Monte · 16-11-2019 2:14pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Waterford station was always a dump and in the wrong place. Glad to see this happen.

It only became a dump in CIE days. As for it's location - what would you have done given the the main lines serving Waterford were on the north side of the river? As it is, the new station is still going to be on the north side.

L1011 · 16-11-2019 3:16pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

You can't see a pattern - and the company that presided over it?

No, because CIE Property have very little to do with how their tenants perform. All bars have been run by tenants for decades (except for Restaurant na Mara which is only a decade or so) for starters.

GM228 · 16-11-2019 4:42pm

L1011 wrote: »

No, because CIE Property have very little to do with how their tenants perform. All bars have been run by tenants for decades (except for Restaurant na Mara which is only a decade or so) for starters.

Don't you mean Brasserie Na Mara.

There was also the Footplate in Heuston and Cork station restaurant (name escapes me), all three were run by Network Catering which was a division of IE.

L1011 · 16-11-2019 5:09pm

Its suprising I remembered two of the three words!

The one in Cork at least was long gone before Network Catering ceased to be I thought?

An Irish Times article from 2003 has The Footplate (and BnM) as being "owned" by Tom Mythen; who was the manager of Network Catering so it was still there then.

The end result still is that CIE got out of catering entirely, getting rid of both Network Catering and the "Dubel" company they had for the Enterprise - and CIE Property will willingly rent space out to private operators; even building new spaces where required. If nobody wants to put a bar or restaurant in Waterford it isn't CIEs problem - and is a pretty good indication that the old ones weren't viable.

Whether they should have gone down the route the Dutch and Danes have where the rail operator runs all the shops under franchise (rake of brands for NS Stations, 7/11 for DSB) is a different debate but that would at best have the same viability.

road_high · 17-11-2019 1:56pm

Waterford station only handles about 500 passengers per day- no way in hell it be viable. A small kiosk with tea coffee and snacks would be about the height of the demand

jelutong · 17-11-2019 4:20pm

Where does the 500 passengers a day figure come from?

end of the road · 17-11-2019 6:27pm

jelutong wrote: »

Where does the 500 passengers a day figure come from?

presumably the rail census that is only done 1 day per year.

L1011 · 17-11-2019 6:29pm

end of the road wrote: »

presumably the rail census that is only done 1 day per year.

The chances that the loading is higher every other day except the census day is nil. Occasional burst loads are not important for capacity planning

They also won't improve the viability of a food or drink outlet

Del.Monte · 17-11-2019 10:22pm

L1011 wrote: »

No, because CIE Property have very little to do with how their tenants perform. All bars have been run by tenants for decades (except for Restaurant na Mara which is only a decade or so) for starters.

The pattern I was referring to was the overall pattern of decline that is visible wherever the dead hand of CIE is involved. The moving about of the bus services for instance.

In my lifetime the lines to New Ross, Rosslare, Mallow and latterly Ballinacourty have closed; most of the freight traffic has disappeared and the station is like the Marie Celeste and I am intrigued as to what on earth to the occupants of the district offices do, and how many of them are there?

Working class heroes · 17-11-2019 10:33pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

The pattern I was referring to was the overall pattern of decline that is visible wherever the dead hand of CIE is involved. The moving about of the bus services for instance.

In my lifetime the lines to New Ross, Rosslare, Mallow and latterly Ballinacourty have closed; most of the freight traffic has disappeared and the station is like the Marie Celeste and I am intrigued as to what on earth to the occupants of the district offices do, and how many of them are there?

District manager, 2 admin staff and a safety liason.
There are other staff located there but they are IMO staff (DTE’s)

Edit: technically the line to Rosslare ain’t closed, yet.

end of the road · 17-11-2019 10:42pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Edit: technically the line to Rosslare ain’t closed, yet.

it's as good as in fairness.

Jamie2k9 · 17-11-2019 11:15pm

end of the road wrote: »

it's as good as in fairness.

Well certain people have been fighting it's corner.

Had IE had there way it would never had a link to the new station but it will now. Hopefully the NTA order IE to maintain it for a further 5-10 years from 2020. Not heard if that's the case.

GM228 · 18-11-2019 1:46pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well certain people have been fighting it's corner.

Had IE had there way it would never had a link to the new station but it will now. Hopefully the NTA order IE to maintain it for a further 5-10 years from 2020. Not heard if that's the case.

The NTA don't have the authority to do so.

GM228 · 18-11-2019 2:34pm

L1011 wrote: »

An Irish Times article from 2003 has The Footplate (and BnM) as being "owned" by Tom Mythen; who was the manager of Network Catering so it was still there then.

The end result still is that CIE got out of catering entirely, getting rid of both Network Catering and the "Dubel" company they had for the Enterprise - and CIE Property will willingly rent space out to private operators; even building new spaces where required. If nobody wants to put a bar or restaurant in Waterford it isn't CIEs problem - and is a pretty good indication that the old ones weren't viable.

Both restaurants were owned by CIE and run by NC under contract on their behalf, Tom Mythen didn't own them, however he was a director of Dubel Catering Ltd which was a wholly owned subsidiary of IE based in NI, (it is worth noting that NC was not a company per se, it was a commercial division of IE).

Dubel was an interesting company, in 1992 IE won a tendered contract to provide catering services to NIR so they set up Dubel. As part of the Dubel contract NC provided a management team (who incidentally came directly from BnM as opposed to coming from NC directly) to oversee Dublin operations when the Enterprise started in 1997.

Dubel was probably the last company based outside the state which IE/CIE controlled.

Jamie2k9 · 18-11-2019 4:20pm

GM228 wrote: »

The NTA don't have the authority to do so.

Who does DoT?

GM228 · 18-11-2019 5:51pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Who does DoT?

No one has the authority to order it.

Del.Monte · 18-11-2019 6:23pm

GM228 wrote: »

No one has the authority to order it.

Not even the Minister for Stepaside Garda Station?

Working class heroes · 18-11-2019 6:30pm

GM228 wrote: »

No one has the authority to order it.

Could I possibly word the question slightly different. If IE decided to completely abandon the line has anyone the power to stop them?

GM228 · 18-11-2019 7:04pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not even the Minister for Stepaside Garda Station?

Working class heroes wrote: »

Could I possibly word the question slightly different. If IE decided to completely abandon the line has anyone the power to stop them?

When a line is closed the railway still has a statutory obligation to maintain bridges and crossings in a safe condition, there is no obligation to keep the railway itself in an operational condition.

When services ceased on the line the NTA and IE agreed a contractual 10 year obligation to maintain the line in a minimum workable condition, once that time is up the only requirement is to keep bridges and crossings in a safe condition.

If the railway is abandoned IE has the option to cease to be responsible for any maintenance on the line after a set timeframe, IE has the power to issue an abandonment order under S21 of the Transport Act 1950.

Del.Monte · 18-11-2019 8:09pm

Presumably the Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company still have some say in the matter?

GM228 · 18-11-2019 10:32pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Presumably the Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company still have some say in the matter?

Yes, technically the order would come from the F&RR&H, IE and Stena own F&RR&H 50/50, however IE have 100% control of the company.

Waterford Station closes after landslide!

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