Waterford Station closes after landslide!

IE 222

Del.Monte wrote: »

Since the railway closed the Bus Eireann direct service from Enniscorthy to Waterford has also been got rid of

This says it all really.

If a bus struggles to make a return then what hope does a train have.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

This says it all really.

If a bus struggles to make a return then what hope does a train have.

it's not a valid comparison really. lack of demand for a bus service doesn't signify lack of demand for rail service, the same as demand for a bus service doesn't signify demand for a rail service. there are people who don't use busses but who would rail and there are people who wouldn't use rail but would use bus and so on.

Del.Monte

IE 222 wrote: »

This says it all really.

If a bus struggles to make a return then what hope does a train have.

The bus was well filled any time that I used it which was quite frequently. What on earth leads you to think that CIE/BE operates in a rational manner? Services are hugely expanded one year only to be reduced again the next - the company is a mirror image of IE - stuffed with overpaid management and unionised to the hilt.

man98

IE 222 wrote: »

Yes really. New Ross has a population of 9,000
Rosslare 1,600
Bridgetown 800
Wellingtonbridge 500
Ballycullane 300
Campile 400

Thats rounding the numbers UP as well.

Good ridership? Id be surprised if over 50 a day used it.

These numbers ignore Wexford Town and surrounding towns (25,000 or so) which were left high and dry when the route was reduced back to Rosslare Harbour, and also ignores the 1,500 in Rosslare Harbour and that Rosslare Strand's population grows to 7,000 or so in the summer time.

IE 222 wrote: »

But what demand from any part of the country is there these days for Rosslare. A free high speed rail service still wouldn't attract people to use it. Its basically a line to nowhere

It's basically a line to Ireland's second largest ro/ro port, with plenty of surrounding industry which was interesting in utilising the line but rebuffed by IÉ mgmt.

IE 222 wrote: »

This says it all really.

If a bus struggles to make a return then what hope does a train have.

That was a Waterford - Dublin route, not a Waterford - Enniscorthy route. Different kettle of fish altogether. There were regularly 70 people on the services out of Waterford, which is significantly more than many of the city suburban services I find myself on. While demand for housing is being ramped up and supply diminishes, there's plenty of property surrounding the line in various towns which would be much more attractive for people searching for property in the area. Campile was just 20 minutes by train from Waterford and I knew of plenty of people in the town working in Waterford forced to get on a 50 minute bus or to get a car. While the average loadings on the railway may not have been fantastic, it is rare to see over 5 on the replacement bus to Waterford after Campile, with a few more getting on in New Ross... it's a farcical service.
This new station development is a golden opportunity to make Waterford Station fit for purpose once again, they should take it.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

it's not a valid comparison really. lack of demand for a bus service doesn't signify lack of demand for rail service, the same as demand for a bus service doesn't signify demand for a rail service. there are people who don't use busses but who would rail and there are people who wouldn't use rail but would use bus and so on.

The comparison shows that even a bus couldnt attract enough footfall between the 2 centre's. Considering transport options are very limited between the 2 if demand was of such people would of travelled by bus regardless of preference.

IE 222

Del.Monte wrote: »

The bus was well filled any time that I used it which was quite frequently. What on earth leads you to think that CIE/BE operates in a rational manner? Services are hugely expanded one year only to be reduced again the next - the company is a mirror image of IE - stuffed with overpaid management and unionised to the hilt.

If it was that popular it would of been put on PSO. There is clearly very little demand for travel between to centres.

IE 222

man98 wrote: »

These numbers ignore Wexford Town and surrounding towns (25,000 or so) which were left high and dry when the route was reduced back to Rosslare Harbour, and also ignores the 1,500 in Rosslare Harbour and that Rosslare Strand's population grows to 7,000 or so in the summer time.


It's basically a line to Ireland's second largest ro/ro port, with plenty of surrounding industry which was interesting in utilising the line but rebuffed by IÉ mgmt.


That was a Waterford - Dublin route, not a Waterford - Enniscorthy route. Different kettle of fish altogether. There were regularly 70 people on the services out of Waterford, which is significantly more than many of the city suburban services I find myself on. While demand for housing is being ramped up and supply diminishes, there's plenty of property surrounding the line in various towns which would be much more attractive for people searching for property in the area. Campile was just 20 minutes by train from Waterford and I knew of plenty of people in the town working in Waterford forced to get on a 50 minute bus or to get a car. While the average loadings on the railway may not have been fantastic, it is rare to see over 5 on the replacement bus to Waterford after Campile, with a few more getting on in New Ross... it's a farcical service.
This new station development is a golden opportunity to make Waterford Station fit for purpose once again, they should take it.

Sure you many as add in Kilkenny's population while your at it. Where talking about the towns directly served by the service and all populations along the line where added. The point is that New Ross alone has a bigger population than all the areas served by the South Wexford Line.

What industry???? You make the point yourself the port is now focused on and disigned for ROLL ON / ROLL OFF traffic. If there was a demand of foot passengers from around the south of Ireland the service would still be place.

And most of them passengers were travelling onwards towards Dublin as well. The low density of people in the area doesn't justify a rail service. It was a boat train connecting other major towns and cities to the port once the low air fares came it was only a matter of time till closure. It was the beet traffic that made it last for as long as it did afterwards.

man98

IE 222 wrote: »

Sure you many as add in Kilkenny's population while your at it. Where talking about the towns directly served by the service and all populations along the line where added. The point is that New Ross alone has a bigger population than all the areas served by the South Wexford Line.

What industry???? You make the point yourself the port is now focused on and disigned for ROLL ON / ROLL OFF traffic. If there was a demand of foot passengers from around the south of Ireland the service would still be place.

And most of them passengers were travelling onwards towards Dublin as well. The low density of people in the area doesn't justify a rail service. It was a boat train connecting other major towns and cities to the port once the low air fares came it was only a matter of time till closure. It was the beet traffic that made it last for as long as it did afterwards.

Well given that the service operated as an Enniscorthy - Rosslare - Waterford service for several years before it was cut to Rosslare, I think it is completely valid to add Wexford's population into it. Right now Wexford can sustain 15 buses per day to Waterford, so yes there's space for a suitable rail service.

Regarding industry, Coca Cola's train from Ballina to Belview Port was intended to proceed to Rosslare (after unloading at Belview) so it could pick up ingredients from its Wexford plant to return to Ballina but at the moment those are taken by truck to Belview. Celtic Linen was another company interested in beginning rail freight operations based out of Wexford, Stobart Freight were reportedly in talks with Rosslare Port about opening a distribution centre adjacent to the harbour.

Arguably, as a public service, its low density is exactly the reason the service was needed. There was a strong ridership that would commute into Waterford due to a lack of local jobs and I'm sure that could continue if the opportunity was given if and when this new station integrated with a large business area is to be built - it would be extremely convenient for anyone living along any of the rail lines out of Waterford. You should check out the Ebbw Vale line into Cardiff as an example of a line connecting up suburban areas with higher unemployment with the city - giving a line massive social benefit. If it was designed as a CRP on a smaller scale it could work on a Wexford - Waterford service. There is strong usership of rail services from Fishguard with Sail Rail and so even a handful of users on a hypothetical service to Waterford that had come off a ferry service is better than nothing. During the summer, however, there can be upwards of 250 point to point foot passengers on board Stena services. All business is good business and there's not a single suitable bus or train to get these foot passengers out to the port.

I'm not arguing for an hourly high speed service to Rosslare, what I'm suggesting is that perhaps it is time to take another look at how we could be conducting services out of every rail terminus in the country and compare it to how we are currently doing it. Plenty of termini, Waterford Station included, just aren't getting the investment they should be getting.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

The comparison shows that even a bus couldnt attract enough footfall between the 2 centre's.

no it only shows that a bus service couldn't attract the footfall, not that there is no demand for such service. however it will depend on which service you are talking about. if enniscorthy to waterford, then that actually had users according to another poster, who i have no reason to doubt. if the south wexford bus service, well as that takes double the time to do the journey and that is on a very good day, then you would be quicker taking the car ferry, which unlike CIE, are willing to provide a good service.

IE 222 wrote: »

Considering transport options are very limited between the 2 if demand was of such people would of travelled by bus regardless of preference.

not necessarily true. neither form of transport usage corelate to each other, due to as i said, the people who would use 1 but not the other.

IE 222 wrote: »

If it was that popular it would of been put on PSO. There is clearly very little demand for travel between to centres.

there is no guarantee or evidence it would have been put on PSO. south wexford especially, and wexford in general really, isn't a priority for very much in this country, including public transport. i have no doubt the poster is telling the truth in relation to usership of the former enniscorthy waterford bus service as he used it regularly, and i also know the area very well.
i'm afraid your operator knows best statements don't corelate with the evidence from local sources.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

If there was a demand of foot passengers from around the south of Ireland the service would still be place.

the rail service would not be in place regardless as wexford in general is not a priority for irish rail. they even want rid of the line to wexford from dublin dispite having decent usage.

IE 222 wrote: »

And most of them passengers were travelling onwards towards Dublin as well. The low density of people in the area doesn't justify a rail service.

the area justifies a rail service. however it cannot be a local service, but would have to be part of a service serving the whole line to limerick junction and possibly couldn't really run from rosslare. running the line from rosslare to waterford only was as stupid as the company deciding tomorrow to run rosslare to wexford as a separate local service. you do not know the area and the local conditions. i know you want to believe the company line and you are entitled to your view but those who know the local conditions are telling you the actual truth.

IE 222 wrote: »

It was a boat train connecting other major towns and cities to the port once the low air fares came it was only a matter of time till closure. It was the beet traffic that made it last for as long as it did afterwards.

it was a boat train because it's what the company wanted it to be for decades. they did not want to operate it as a frequent local service because of their only from dublin ideals.
they then withdrew the direct service, so the service connected nothing to nothing and served nobody, it was ran as 2 separate services to suit staff shifts. the passenger service on rosslare waterford outlasted the beat traffic by 4/5 years funnily enough.

IE 222

man98 wrote: »

Well given that the service operated as an Enniscorthy - Rosslare - Waterford service for several years before it was cut to Rosslare, I think it is completely valid to add Wexford's population into it. Right now Wexford can sustain 15 buses per day to Waterford, so yes there's space for a suitable rail service.

Regarding industry, Coca Cola's train from Ballina to Belview Port was intended to proceed to Rosslare (after unloading at Belview) so it could pick up ingredients from its Wexford plant to return to Ballina but at the moment those are taken by truck to Belview. Celtic Linen was another company interested in beginning rail freight operations based out of Wexford, Stobart Freight were reportedly in talks with Rosslare Port about opening a distribution centre adjacent to the harbour.

Arguably, as a public service, its low density is exactly the reason the service was needed. There was a strong ridership that would commute into Waterford due to a lack of local jobs and I'm sure that could continue if the opportunity was given if and when this new station integrated with a large business area is to be built - it would be extremely convenient for anyone living along any of the rail lines out of Waterford. You should check out the Ebbw Vale line into Cardiff as an example of a line connecting up suburban areas with higher unemployment with the city - giving a line massive social benefit. If it was designed as a CRP on a smaller scale it could work on a Wexford - Waterford service. There is strong usership of rail services from Fishguard with Sail Rail and so even a handful of users on a hypothetical service to Waterford that had come off a ferry service is better than nothing. During the summer, however, there can be upwards of 250 point to point foot passengers on board Stena services. All business is good business and there's not a single suitable bus or train to get these foot passengers out to the port.

I'm not arguing for an hourly high speed service to Rosslare, what I'm suggesting is that perhaps it is time to take another look at how we could be conducting services out of every rail terminus in the country and compare it to how we are currently doing it. Plenty of termini, Waterford Station included, just aren't getting the investment they should be getting.

This is all based on probability and possibilities the facts are the ridership wasn't there. If i remember correctly the Enniscorthy leg only ran for a couple of years and was more operational reasons than demand. Who is likely to ccommute between Waterford - Enniscorthy. Stobart traffic is unlikely as Rosslare can't handle containers and IE cant transport road trailers they were only talking to IE for accesses as they manage the port.

If the locals had to pay for the line to remain open they would be the first to call for its closure. More potential from New Ross put your energy into campaign for that than a wasteful out of date asset designed for ferry passnegers.

Del.Monte

IE 222 wrote: »

This is all based on probability and possibilities the facts are the ridership wasn't there. If i remember correctly the Enniscorthy leg only ran for a couple of years and was more operational reasons than demand. Who is likely to ccommute between Waterford - Enniscorthy. Stobart traffic is unlikely as Rosslare can't handle containers and IE cant transport road trailers they were only talking to IE for accesses as they manage the port.

If the locals had to pay for the line to remain open they would be the first to call for its closure. More potential from New Ross put your energy into campaign for that than a wasteful out of date asset designed for ferry passnegers.

Why don't you do the tiniest bit of research before posting? Why on earth would a passenger rail service be of any value? The station is even at the wrong end of the town.

http://getthere.ie/new_ross-waterford/

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

no it only shows that a bus service couldn't attract the footfall, not that there is no demand for such service. however it will depend on which service you are talking about. if enniscorthy to waterford, then that actually had users according to another poster, who i have no reason to doubt. if the south wexford bus service, well as that takes double the time to do the journey and that is on a very good day, then you would be quicker taking the car ferry, which unlike CIE, are willing to provide a good service.



not necessarily true. neither form of transport usage corelate to each other, due to as i said, the people who would use 1 but not the other.



there is no guarantee or evidence it would have been put on PSO. south wexford especially, and wexford in general really, isn't a priority for very much in this country, including public transport. i have no doubt the poster is telling the truth in relation to usership of the former enniscorthy waterford bus service as he used it regularly, and i also know the area very well.
i'm afraid your operator knows best statements don't corelate with the evidence from local sources.

It no more than a 50 people a day on a good day we justify that as demand. If someone really depended on the train to get them to and from work ect they would of got the bus or found an alternative. We can't be providing services on the off chance a couple of days a years there will be some demand nor can we providing personal public transport. Its a waste of tax payers money which can be spent better elsewhere on the network.

IE 222

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why don't you do the tiniest bit of research before posting? Why on earth would a passenger rail service be of any value? The station is even at the wrong end of the town.

http://getthere.ie/new_ross-waterford/

If money is to be thrown at rail services in south Wexford it would be put to better use serving New Ross than Rosslare. Im sure if going to the expense of reopening a line a new location could be found. Again ill point out the fact that I am not purposing of campaign for the reopening of the New Ross line and totally against the reopening of South Wexford Line but if given a choice between which of the 2 to reopen IMO New Ross by far has more potential of running a somewhat successful service.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

This is all based on probability and possibilities the facts are the ridership wasn't there. If i remember correctly the Enniscorthy leg only ran for a couple of years and was more operational reasons than demand. Who is likely to ccommute between Waterford - Enniscorthy. Stobart traffic is unlikely as Rosslare can't handle containers and IE cant transport road trailers they were only talking to IE for accesses as they manage the port.

If the locals had to pay for the line to remain open they would be the first to call for its closure. More potential from New Ross put your energy into campaign for that than a wasteful out of date asset designed for ferry passnegers.

the ridership actually was there. ellegitly revenue checks were rare though. the enniscorthy leg may have been for operational reasons (which seem to take priority over everything else anyway) but if it generated some extra traffic to waterford which it likely did then that is a good thing. for wexford waterford is the nearest major job centre so it wouldn't be beyond reason that there may be those who go to waterford from places like enniscorthy. the locals paid to keep the line open via their taxes. the campaign will continue to focus it's energy on the non-wasteful non-out of date (well apart from the track) asset which was once designed for ferry passengers (no different to the rest of the network which was designed for 1 type of traffic but changed over time) but which can play a part in offering a service to new traffic such as local and cross country services, avoiding a trip to dublin. this will be done along with fighting off the threat to wexford's last remaining railway line.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

It no more than a 50 people a day on a good day we justify that as demand.

70 to 80 or even more according to some people, who i have no reason to disbelieve unlike the CIE propaganda machine.

IE 222 wrote: »

If someone really depended on the train to get them to and from work ect they would of got the bus or found an alternative.

not if the bus doesn't exist or is so inconvenient compared to the option they once had.

IE 222 wrote: »

We can't be providing services on the off chance a couple of days a years there will be some demand nor can we providing personal public transport.

we aren't and never did provide such services so that is just a meaningless statement.

IE 222 wrote: »

Its a waste of tax payers money which can be spent better elsewhere on the network.

another meaningless statement which while accurate, means nothing in terms of the railway that survived the closure program of the 50s, 60s and 70s, and even then a couple of those closures were questionible.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

70 to 80 or even more according to some people, who i have no reason to disbelieve unlike the CIE propaganda machine.



not if the bus doesn't exist or is so inconvenient compared to the option they once had.



we aren't and never did provide such services so that is just a meaningless statement.



another meaningless statement which while accurate, means nothing in terms of the railway that survived the closure program of the 50s, 60s and 70s, and even then a couple of those closures were questionible.

70 to 80 people travelling on each train running on the South Wexford line. Seems you take in what you want to hear.

Well then were is the train today if it was so popular. I Dont see how its meaningless if the numbers using the train service in your opinion was so high surely not all of them could of afforded to suddenly buy cars or quite their jobs.

Why drag down other viable services to keep a under used service ferrying 50 or less passengers a day running. It make no business sense. Obviously the NTA were even happy to see the back of it and seen sense in closing it down.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

70 to 80 people travelling on each train running on the South Wexford line. Seems you take in what you want to hear.

nope.

IE 222 wrote: »

Well then were is the train today if it was so popular.

ask CIE and the NTA. they took it away against the wishes of it's users and others.

IE 222 wrote: »

I Dont see how its meaningless if the numbers using the train service in your opinion was so high surely not all of them could of afforded to suddenly buy cars or quite their jobs.

you would have to track them down and ask them.

IE 222 wrote: »

Why drag down other viable services to keep a under used service ferrying 50 or less passengers a day running.

none of that was happening so your question is meaningless in my view. since the late 50s early 60s, services were shut to keep the rest going. in 2017 there are more threatened with closure to keep other services going. it won't stop until there is nothing left.

IE 222 wrote: »

It make no business sense.

the railway isn't a business. or at least IE isn't. i'm unsure what the hell it is and it doesn't seem to know itself what it is but a business it isn't.

IE 222 wrote: »

Obviously the NTA were even happy to see the back of it and seen sense in closing it down.

nope, it seems they want to see the back of most of, if not the whole network outside dart. the only sense they saw was removing a service and replacing it with, well, more or less nothing.
the users of this line got nothing in return, and any future closures will get nothing in return either.

BoatMad

The sad fact is we have an appalling rail service between Waterford and limerick , the 5th and 3rd cities in the state. An absolutely appalling timetable largely dervived from two boat trains existed from the mid seventies , 2 trains a day neither of which suited commuters , and no Sunday service. The last train was simply timetabled to suit IE drivers returning to Waterford and ie wouldn't pay staff to open the gates on Sunday

What's appalling about cie/i.e. Is it's allowed to create these ghost timetables and then the outright cheek to claim no one uses the line.

Whatever you say about WRC it created a link from the 3rd to the 4th city and then in response to low numbers , cut fares and boosted the number of trains , resulting in a increase in ridership

Look at the Wexford Dublin line , which will in time probably serve as a GDA commuter line , appalling service from Wexford

CIE manufactures failed railways , that's it job , it constructs timetables to render lines useless

The solution is to dismantle CIE and privatise its operation with track managed by the state

The irony , is that tax payers money will of course be forthcoming to make the barrow bridge a greenway !!!


Note , I do agree that foot passengers on ferries are a thing of the past. I was on Irish ferries from Dublin and Stenaline recently and all foot passengers can be accommodated in a single bus transfer from the terminal into the boat. !!! That's less then 40 passengers ( the actual numbers were under 20 on the day ) per sailing

BoatMad

Why drag down other viable services to keep a under used service ferrying 50 or less passengers a day running. It make no business sense. Obviously the NTA were even happy to see the back of it and seen sense in closing it down.

Passenger rail services are not a " business " in any accepted understanding of the word

So let's stop using nonsense phrases like " no business sense " in the context of Irish railways , it's an oxymoron

The only purpose of rail transport today and into the future , is to displace users from roads , i.e. To offer an alternative , its has no other function. You either accept that's the purpose of the railway today , or you shut down the whole system.

But one thing it's clearly not , is a " business ". That's a sham construct, a business exists because there is an ecomonic return. Nothing in Irish railways passes that test. Hence let's stop arguing for or against rail services on the silly grounds of " business case "

rebel456

BoatMad wrote: »

CIE manufactures failed railways , that's it job , it constructs timetables to render lines useless

The solution is to dismantle CIE and privatise its operation with track managed by the state

CIE runs skeletal services to minimize losses to the state. Folks are just not taking these trains as the other public transport options provide more frequent services, often faster, and directly into the town centres or otherwise closer to their destination.

For CIE to increase journey times, or frequency, it would require significant investment in the order of millions. An investment that is just not justified given the low population catchment these trains run through.

BoatMad wrote: »

Passenger rail services are not a " business " in any accepted understanding of the word

So let's stop using nonsense phrases like " no business sense " in the context of Irish railways , it's an oxymoron

The only purpose of rail transport today and into the future , is to displace users from roads , i.e. To offer an alternative , its has no other function. You either accept that's the purpose of the railway today , or you shut down the whole system.

But one thing it's clearly not , is a " business ". That's a sham construct, a business exists because there is an ecomonic return. Nothing in Irish railways passes that test. Hence let's stop arguing for or against rail services on the silly grounds of " business case "

Business in this sense means a return for the state, in more ways than just plain monetary terms - a rail line is moving a decent share of passengers or freight. It's contributing to the local economy, etc. A railway can be essential if there are no other transport options available, but its value decreases if there is greater competition and little passengers.

A good way of looking at this is the way AECOM analysed the railway lines in threat of closure for a report by Irish Rail (circa 2011). Available here. In this they use a points system and allocate points on a number of headings to come up with a total...



As you can see rail lines are asses just not on economics, but how well they integrate with other transport options, how much population they serves, if there is road competition etc.

Important to remember that rail is only one public transport option. Sometimes other options are cheaper to provide the same service, especially in low or sparely populated population areas.

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

CIE runs skeletal services to minimize losses to the state.

nope. it's to manufacture failed railways. try some different propaganda.

rebel456 wrote: »

Folks are just not taking these trains as the other public transport options provide more frequent services, often faster, and directly into the town centres or otherwise closer to their destination.

folks are not taking these trains, as the train does not provide a frequent service to suit users, dispite being more then competitive with the road option. the othe other public transport options serve some but most are taking the car, but would take the train if it was operated properly.

rebel456 wrote: »

For CIE to increase journey times, or frequency, it would require significant investment in the order of millions. An investment that is just not justified given the low population catchment these trains run through.

a small few million maybe, that would be justified given that the the network is viable and has the population to support reasonably frequent rail services.

rebel456 wrote: »

Business in this sense means a return for the state, in more ways than just plain monetary terms - a rail line is moving a decent share of passengers or freight. It's contributing to the local economy, etc. A railway can be essential if there are no other transport options available, but its value decreases if there is greater competition and little passengers.

it also means a return for the users, which is as important if not more important then a return for the state.

rebel456 wrote: »

A good way of looking at this is the way AECOM analysed the railway lines in threat of closure for a report by Irish Rail (circa 2011). Available here. In this they use a points system and allocate points on a number of headings to come up with a total...

As you can see rail lines are asses just not on economics, but how well they integrate with other transport options, how much population they serves, if there is road competition etc.

if lines are not integrating with other public transport options, that is completely the fault of CIE as they operate them and probably most of the local bus services in the state.

rebel456 wrote: »

Important to remember that rail is only one public transport option. Sometimes other options are cheaper to provide the same service, especially in low or sparely populated population areas.

not when the infrastructure cost of those options are taken into account. for those options to have any meaning better infrastructure would have to be provided which would cost a lot more then what those options replaced.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

folks are not taking these trains, as the train does not provide a frequent service to suit users, dispite being more then competitive with the road option. the othe other public transport options serve some but most are taking the car, but would take the train if it was operated properly.

What needs?? You make this point over and over but do nothing to back it up. Please elaborate.

end of the road wrote: »

a small few million maybe, that would be justified given that the the network is viable and has the population to support reasonably frequent rail services.

According the AECOM report a minimum of €20 million would be needed to upgrade the Limerick Junction to Waterford railway signalling & level crossings along. That excludes straightening tracks, station upgrades, track upgrades, staffing, rolling stock, etc etc. You're throwing more money at a railway line that runs through only small towns with 36 people per route kilometer. It simply is not justified. On these rural routes frequent high quality bus services operate for a fraction of the cost & can bring folks more directly to their destinations.

end of the road wrote: »

not when the infrastructure cost of those options are taken into account. for those options to have any meaning better infrastructure would have to be provided which would cost a lot more then what those options replaced.

Can you explain this, how is providing a bus service more expense than investing in the rail line (for €20m minimum as I outlined)?

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

According the AECOM report a minimum of €20 million would be needed to upgrade the Limerick Junction to Waterford railway signalling & level crossings along. That excludes straightening tracks, station upgrades, track upgrades, staffing, rolling stock, etc etc. You're throwing more money at a railway line that runs through only small towns with 36 people per route kilometer. It simply is not justified.

the line has a population to support it as it runs through 3 decent sized towns. investment to bring the line up to a modern standard is justified and the amount to do so would be small fry and likely a lot less then the figure you quote.

rebel456 wrote: »

On these rural routes frequent high quality bus services operate for a fraction of the cost & can bring folks more directly to their destinations.

high quality bus services don't exist. they don't operate at a fraction of the cost once you include infrastructure costs like the railway has to do. rail can offer a better higher quality and more reliable service if the operator is forced to do it as per their obligations.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

the line has a population to support it as it runs through 3 decent sized towns. investment to bring the line up to a modern standard is justified and the amount to do so would be small fry and likely a lot less then the figure you quote.

Ok, since you don't ever seem to give figures or back up your claims, can I ask then what is the minimum population needed, in your opinion, to support a railway?

end of the road wrote: »

high quality bus services don't exist. they don't operate at a fraction of the cost once you include infrastructure costs like the railway has to do.

Do we build roads solely for the use of buses? If not then why would they have to pay the infrastructure cost of such?

Banjoxed

rebel456 wrote: »

Ok, since you don't ever seem to give figures or back up your claims, can I ask then what is the minimum population needed, in your opinion, to support a railway?



Do we build roads solely for the use of buses? If not then why would they have to pay the infrastructure cost of such?

Those sealions, eh?

http://simplikation.com/why-sealioning-is-bad/

rebel456

Banjoxed wrote: »

Those sealions, eh?

http://simplikation.com/why-sealioning-is-bad/

Tell me then, when someone says that a 'railway line has the population to support it', how do you measure that, surely we have to set some form of number or quantity?

Sea-lion population maybe?

Jamie2k9

Had a look at the plans a few days ago and they are impressive. They will go public next month (will post). Full planning will be complete by April (expected) for the full development. Will all depend on the 60 million Goverment infrastructure before the developer will start.

Also the Belview/Rosslare line is protected and will run through the new station so referring to the comment about IE using it to finish off Rosslare with the move.

If it all goes ahead it will go from the worst to the best station in the country.

BoatMad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Had a look at the plans a few days ago and they are impressive. They will go public next month (will post). Full planning will be complete by April (expected) for the full development. Will all depend on the 60 million Goverment infrastructure before the developer will start.

Also the Belview/Rosslare line is protected and will run through the new station so referring to the comment about IE using it to finish off Rosslare with the move.

If it all goes ahead it will go from the worst to the best station in the country.

are the plans public

Also the Belview/Rosslare line is protected

how is the line " protected ", funds for the barrow bridge dry up at the end of this year for example

BoatMad

CIE runs skeletal services to minimize losses to the state. Folks are just not taking these trains as the other public transport options provide more frequent services, often faster, and directly into the town centres or otherwise closer to their destination.

CIE always keep a few " failed " railways up its back pocket to wheel out when its needed

Are you seriously suggesting that a railway line between the third and fifth city in the state cant be effective ( and limerick has a big university ) . yet CIE is running two trains a day , using the same timetable since 1972, with no Sunday return service

at the very least you think , Two trains a day , so one leaving early and one returning late , you know to allow you to have a day in the destination

Hah . Not CIE

Business in this sense means a return for the state, in more ways than just plain monetary terms - a rail line is moving a decent share of passengers or freight. It's contributing to the local economy, etc. A railway can be essential if there are no other transport options available, but its value decreases if there is greater competition and little passengers.

Every rail line has competition , the fact remains Rail is NOT a business, it cannot stand on its own two feet economically . With that being the case, then in essence Railways are a social service, to provide an alternative to road. Lets stop analysing the situation on ecomonic grounds , its nonsense

As you can see rail lines are asses just not on economics, but how well they integrate with other transport options, how much population they serves, if there is road competition etc.

to suggest that a rural line from Manulla to sligo has greater density then a line from the fifteen city in the state to the third is nonsense

and by the way the way , its Limerick to Waterford that should be appraised, CIEs "trick" of confining the line to LJ, is just that " a trick " LJ is NOT a destination , not more then Manulla is