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Veganism: Who is behind the Agenda?

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Comments

  • #102
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,066 ✭✭✭Christy42


    emaherx wrote: »
    It's a exactly the way data is skewed against cattle which was my point. Claims of requiring 20,000 liters to produce 1 kg of beef in Ireland are complete BS because it rains the real figure counting what a cow consumes 150-200 liters of water. Cattle can graze land and live side by side with nature but a plough destroys everything in it's path. And funny enough the more extensively farmed land is with cattle it increases the claimed land use and water use by the unfair calculations used.

    Processed vegan food is on the increase and will only increase more as that market expands.

    I don't need to put up a fight for the insects as I'm an omnivore and accept animals die for my food but I'm not hypocritical about it.

    Not in the numbers we are breeding them which is the point. Remember they also take up more farmland. And that the veggie numbers also include rainfall and the comparison is what we are after. You can probably get some places with enough rainfall to completely cover cattle production but certainly not all.

    I am sure processed vegan food is on the increase. Where did I claim otherwise???Right now it is an easier way to eat healthier. This is the claim and it isn't wrong. Seriously eat more veg and less processed food. If giving up meat helps someone do that then I will wish them the best of luck. Given the current state of the market it seems likely to help.

    Then stop trying to make other people fight for insects?
    https://www.sciencealert.com/are-animals-as-smart-or-as-dumb-as-we-think-they-are. Cows seem smart enough (as well as tasty, let's be fair here). Not sure I would bet on a spider winning a test.

    I am a meat eater but I can also not shout that there is some Agenda or hypocrite at someone because they don't eat meat. It is an easy way to improve health and do something about the environment. Ploughing a field is not going to cause global warming and neither with a few spiders getting caught up in it. Throwing resources at cows can cause issues.


  • #103
    einn32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭einn32


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Using California as an example is just intentionally picking and choosing to skew the data. California probably shouldn't be doing much growing. Hey veganism isn't perfect. Compare like with like, what are figured like for producing veggies in Ireland vs meat?


    Is processed food more available for meat eaters or vegans. That was my only claim. Again veganism or veggie is not perfect here either. Single counterexamples don't negate the trend. I am sure the new fast food veggie burger I have seen advertised is absolute muck. But it is way easier to find a vast selection of processed meat.

    You can go onto a fight for the insects but it seems pretty strawman to assume the vegans are.

    They should promote it. It's helping some agri sectors. It might provide work for me! I don't dislike vegans. It's a small market that benefits some agri sectors. Ireland agriculture doesn't really benefit from veganism in any great way I assume?

    I was just wondering what vegans think about the destruction of animals for crop production that's all. The fact that most crop farms also slaughter animals. The message is life isn't fair and just get on with it I guess.


  • #104
    Say my name
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,776 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Ploughing a field does indeed contribute to global warming.

    https://medium.com/datadriveninvestor/why-ploughing-is-such-a-bad-idea-62956c17967c

    Water use in vegetables in Ireland is as much a factor as anywhere. Potato growers nowadays won't really take out land for sowing unless they've access to water bodies for irrigation.


  • #105
    emaherx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,203 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Not in the numbers we are breeding them which is the point. Remember they also take up more farmland. And that the veggie numbers also include rainfall and the comparison is what we are after. You can probably get some places with enough rainfall to completely cover cattle production but certainly not all.

    I am sure processed vegan food is on the increase. Where did I claim otherwise???Right now it is an easier way to eat healthier. This is the claim and it isn't wrong. Seriously eat more veg and less processed food. If giving up meat helps someone do that then I will wish them the best of luck. Given the current state of the market it seems likely to help.

    Then stop trying to make other people fight for insects?
    https://www.sciencealert.com/are-animals-as-smart-or-as-dumb-as-we-think-they-are. Cows seem smart enough (as well as tasty, let's be fair here). Not sure I would bet on a spider winning a test.

    I am a meat eater but I can also not shout that there is some Agenda or hypocrite at someone because they don't eat meat. It is an easy way to improve health and do something about the environment. Ploughing a field is not going to cause global warming and neither with a few spiders getting caught up in it. Throwing resources at cows can cause issues.

    Point is water is not an issue in this country for either I'm not anti plants. Yes they take up more farmland but they share this farm land with nature many species of butterfly would disappear without our pasture land and Meadows. Sure the more intensive cattle farms can be an issue but 50% of Irish farms have less than 10 cows. But the more extensive a farm is the greater the area of land per kg of produce that will be used however it will be more friendly to the native wildlife.

    If the world ever went completely vegan the same people who live off processed foods now will do so as a vegan supply and demand, vegan products make up a small percentage of the overall market for a fairly obvious reason. Vegans often get excited over new vegan versions of junk foods being available as it is something they miss. Not sure about spiders but crickets are meant to be fairly nutritious.

    I've never tried to get anyone to save the insects, although over all it probably is an area of agriculture that needs to improve. Just pointed out the obvious hypocrisy.Not sure about spiders but crickets are meant to be fairly nutritious. I wish anyone the best who wants to be vegan for their own reasons but there is a massive movement of misinformation being spread about animal agriculture I'd call that an agenda. In this thread and many others there are regular vegan posters who spread complete nonsense.

    Not calling anyone a hypocrite for not eating meat, what's hypocritical is claiming their food is cruelty free.


  • #106
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Not in the numbers we are breeding them which is the point. Remember they also take up more farmland. And that the veggie numbers also include rainfall and the comparison is what we are after. You can probably get some places with enough rainfall to completely cover cattle production but certainly not all.I am sure processed vegan food is on the increase. Where did I claim otherwise???Right now it is an easier way to eat healthier. This is the claim and it isn't wrong. Seriously eat more veg and less processed food. If giving up meat helps someone do that then I will wish them the best of luck. Given the current state of the market it seems likely to helpThen stop trying to make other people fight for insects?
    https://www.sciencealert.com/are-animals-as-smart-or-as-dumb-as-we-think-they-are. Cows seem smart enough (as well as tasty, let's be fair here). Not sure I would bet on a spider winning a test.I am a meat eater but I can also not shout that there is some Agenda or hypocrite at someone because they don't eat meat. It is an easy way to improve health and do something about the environment. Ploughing a field is not going to cause global warming and neither with a few spiders getting caught up in it. Throwing resources at cows can cause issues.

    That's the thing - we have fewer cattle than we did in 1973 when Ireland joined the EU. Most of the vegan propaganda bandied about against animal farming is simply pure and utter bs.

    And no animals dont "take up more farmland'. In this country livestock units per hectare are used to manage how many animals a given area can support. And as most of soils topography and climate does not suit the growing of crops - but are suitable for grass - then it makes sense to utilise livestock who can convert that grass into food whether that is dairy products or extensively reared cattle etc. From the FAO:
    Animal food sources make a vital contribution to global nutrition and are an excellent source of macro- and micronutrients. Livestock products make up 18% of global calories, 34% of global protein consumption and provides essential micro-nutrients, such as vitamin B12, iron and calcium. Livestock use large areas of pastures where nothing else could be produced. Animals also add to agricultural production through manure production and drought power. Further, keeping livestock provides a secure source of income for over 500 million poor people in many in rural areas.

    https://www.eea.europa.eu/signals/signals-2015/articles/soil-and-climate-change

    The funny thing about much of the 'veggie numbers' is has been shown that they do not use the same metrics and exclude much of the artificial inputs, irrigation and fossil fuels required for their production.

    Eating highly processed ****e is not healthier whether that is plant based or otherwise. The fact is that an omnivorous diet remains a recommended diet by health bodies such as the NHS and not the usual whack nutjobs we have screaming otherwise.

    To the bolded bit. Incorrect. Ploughing including all forms of cultivation is known to cause a significant release of carbon into the atmosphere. Grassland on the other hand actively sequesteres carbon. And no it's not just 'spiders'. It has been estimated that some 7.3 billion animals and organisms are killed as a result of soil cultivation and harvesting every year.

    According to the European Environmental Agency one of the best ways to sequester carbon is to utilise existing grasslands.
    Climate change mitigation. 
    The most carbon-rich soils are peatlands, mostly found in northern Europe, the UK and Ireland. Grassland soils also store a lot of carbon per hectare...The fastest way to increase organic carbon in farmed soil is to convert arable land to grassland...

    On farmland, ploughing the soil is known to accelerate decomposition and mineralisation of organic matter. In order to keep carbon and nutrients in the soil, researchers suggest reducing tillage

    http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

    And that is the problem with a lot of the plant food industry spiel that is wrong. Is it being promoted? - yes it is- go take a look at who is funding a whole bunch of the pro plant food hype in the slick hollywood type documentaries being endlessly touted here and elsewhere.

    As for the idea (your words) that "that there is some Agenda or hypocrite at someone because they don't eat meat".

    Thats a very odd statement and doesn't match with anything here tbh. The multi billion dollar plant food industry and a person eating a primarily plant food diet are not the one and same by any stretch of the imagination. That there is a huge amount of misinformation about agriculture being constantly regurgitated is without doubt. No offence meant but many of your own statements are identical to those found on many of prosletysing type vegan websites, videos and documentaties promoting plant food diets. And as pointed out they dont stand up to scrutiny.


  • #107
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,066 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I never stated a vegetarian diet is the healthiest? I said it is an easy way to help cut out processed foods. My diet is the healthiest. Who am I to give out? Many vegetarians get better diets than me as do meat eaters. Is m trying to avoid the statements on those weird sites but you are putting words in my mouth at times here.

    Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? Not everyone. Not what is the ideal diet (cos no one eats that anyway).

    No offense taken. I mean I am going with vegetarian arguments when I feel like they are not the best way to achieve their goals. However I do acknowledge that there are reasons behind it and accept their choice. As you and I have said a veggie diet with some chicken will be better but if someone gets healthier than their CURRENT diet then more power to them. It is certainly not a fix for everyone like some claim (though those pictures of pigs have led me to some nice bacon sandwiches).

    I use the word agenda because it is the title. Yes companies are trying to make money off it with plenty of disinformation but the same can be said for meat (the recent mc ads trying to show off natural ingredients really annoyed me. Doesn't matter what they use after it is thrown in grease). I can't see it as an agenda any more than meat is being pushed by an agenda with their own disinformation. I use hypocrite as ordinary vegetarians were referred by this term here because insects are equal to a cow apparently.

    Yes in some places it makes sense to cultivate cows due to a lack of farmland available. Is this true for every place used for cows? I am not just talking about Ireland as the Ireland does farming really well and many facts and figures are taken on a global scale.

    Edit: your link definitely outlines the climate effect of farming crops. It does not compare it with farming animals which is the core point here so I am unsure of the relevance.


  • #108
    emaherx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,203 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Christy42 wrote: »

    Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? Not everyone. Not what is the ideal diet (cos no one eats that anyway).

    Simply put no and neither would most vegans and vegetarians. Simply cutting out meat would most likely be much more unhealthy, that's not to say one can't be healthy as a vegan or vegetarian but most people would need to replace the meat with something else.

    Here's a crazy idea, if you want to cut out processed foods simply do that it doesn't take a genius to work out the difference between whole foods and processed foods whether vegan omnivore or otherwise.


  • #109
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Christy42 wrote: »
    I never stated a vegetarian diet is the healthiest? I said it is an easy way to help cut out processed foods. My diet is the healthiest. Who am I to give out? Many vegetarians get better diets than me as do meat eaters. Is m trying to avoid the statements on those weird sites but you are putting words in my mouth at times here.

    Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? Not everyone. Not what is the ideal diet (cos no one eats that anyway).

    No offense taken. I mean I am going with vegetarian arguments when I feel like they are not the best way to achieve their goals. However I do acknowledge that there are reasons behind it and accept their choice. As you and I have said a veggie diet with some chicken will be better but if someone gets healthier than their CURRENT diet then more power to them. It is certainly not a fix for everyone like some claim (though those pictures of pigs have led me to some nice bacon sandwiches).

    I use the word agenda because it is the title. Yes companies are trying to make money off it with plenty of disinformation but the same can be said for meat (the recent mc ads trying to show off natural ingredients really annoyed me. Doesn't matter what they use after it is thrown in grease). I can't see it as an agenda any more than meat is being pushed by an agenda with their own disinformation. I use hypocrite as ordinary vegetarians were referred by this term here because insects are equal to a cow apparently.

    Yes in some places it makes sense to cultivate cows due to a lack of farmland available. Is this true for every place used for cows? I am not just talking about Ireland as the Ireland does farming really well and many facts and figures are taken on a global scale.

    Edit: your link definitely outlines the climate effect of farming crops. It does not compare it with farming animals which is the core point here so I am unsure of the relevance.

    Ironically in contradiction to what you open with processed foods for the v & v movement is seeing a massive surge in retail sales.

    Much of the food aimed at these groups is heavily processed and in cases containing ingredients where their long term impact on humans is unknown.

    Both vegetarian and omnivorous diets are easily made healthy by avoiding certain foods marketed to both.

    Vegan diet is a very different thing.
    It is near impossible to be vegan in Ireland an not rely on , processed foods, high supplementation or consuming out of season imported goods with shocking environmental footprints. This is often a case where the person is putting ethical issues before their own health, sometimes knowingly and sometimes through ignorance.


  • #110
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Christy42 wrote: »
    I never stated a vegetarian diet is the healthiest? I said it is an easy way to help cut out processed foods. My diet is the healthiest. Who am I to give out? Many vegetarians get better diets than me as do meat eaters. Is m trying to avoid the statements on those weird sites but you are putting words in my mouth at times here.
    Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? Not everyone. Not what is the ideal diet (cos no one eats that anyway).
    No offense taken. I mean I am going with vegetarian arguments when I feel like they are not the best way to achieve their goals. However I do acknowledge that there are reasons behind it and accept their choice. As you and I have said a veggie diet with some chicken will be better but if someone gets healthier than their CURRENT diet then more power to them. It is certainly not a fix for everyone like some claim (though those pictures of pigs have led me to some nice bacon sandwiches)

    I use the word agenda because it is the title. Yes companies are trying to make money off it with plenty of disinformation but the same can be said for meat (the recent mc ads trying to show off natural ingredients really annoyed me. Doesn't matter what they use after it is thrown in grease). I can't see it as an agenda any more than meat is being pushed by an agenda with their own disinformation.

    I use hypocrite as ordinary vegetarians were referred by this term here because insects are equal to a cow apparently.Yes in some places it makes sense to cultivate cows due to a lack of farmland available. Is this true for every place used for cows? I am not just talking about Ireland as the Ireland does farming really well and many facts and figures are taken on a global scale.Edit: your link definitely outlines the climate effect of farming crops. It does not compare it with farming animals which is the core point here so I am unsure of the relevance.


    Your core argument there appears to be that there is equal propaganda against meat and non meat diets.

    Not so. Discounting actual advertising for products like McDs - Meat producers or even omnivores do not endlessly push absolute misinformation about plants or plant food diets. And yet day in and day out - this the crap being pushed about animal farming and that meat is little better than nuclear waste or wtte. Like US figures for water being used for animal farming here in an effort to claim animal agiculture is single handily using every drop of water in the country etc. And thats just one single example of the bs being endlessly repeated .

    And that point that does not just relate to Ireland btw - worldwide there are vast areas of grassland which will not support the growing of crop. See the FAO article linked - Where it states that globally "Livestock use large areas of pastures where nothing else could be produced".

    As to digressing about specific diets - your premise that. "Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? .

    No - because eating meat or otherwise is not the main problem with western diets. Not even sure why you are picking 'meat' tbh or even whether that is processed meats or otherwise . It's true that eating highly processed high fat high salt and other unhealthy foodstuffs appears to be one of the main issues identified by nutritionists for the majority of people.

    It remains that meat and dairy products are recommended as part of a healthy balanced diet by bodies such as the NHS

    https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/

    Just to note I believe the other poster referred to the issue as being hypocritical and not that any veggies were hypocrites or otherwise. I believe there is a clear difference there tbh

    As to the highlighted bit. The link was added to detail just some of the climate effect of farming crops which you seemed to be unaware of. There are also many more impacts of cultivation which makes livestock farming look like a picnic in comparison.

    And that is the issue with much of these discussions is that there are those who know little or nothing about agriculture whether animal or arable either here or abroad but who endlessly repeat the same old mantras that meat is badddd and animal farming is the worst thing in the universe because they read it on a plant food website someplace.. What is evident that little or any of it stands up to scrutiny and the endless kitchen sink throwing is simply tiresome.


  • #111
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,066 ✭✭✭Christy42


    You are simply dodging my argument at that stage.

    I have repeat said that eating a balanced diet of both is better. However you continue to ignore this. I stated some people have managed to eat healthier as a vegan than they did as a meat eater. And you keep attacking a strawman of it not being the perfect diet. If that the crutch that some people need to avoid processed food then I will applaud them as opposed to being offended by their existence. I said before most processed heavily salted food we eat is meat based. Not all but hey if you cut out meat it is a handy excuse to not eat any of that and feel pressured.

    Honestly most that I have seen is "yeah I don't eat meat for environmental reasons" "what how dare you compare meat to nuclear waste or call it the worst thing in the world". I live in this world. Meat as the worst thing ever is not prevelant. I have met plenty of vegetarians for all sorts of reasons. The closest I have seen to the above is a few pictures of pigs or cows which made me hungry. There are plenty of lies such that vegans can't get protein or whatever. They can. They may have to work for it but there are plenty who are much stronger than me for all my meat eating and fair play to them.

    I made a glib comment on the ploughing and you ran with it. Fair enough I should not have said it about ploughing. It still leaves you ignoring the core issue of raising the amount of farm animals we currently have as being worse for the environment than if we moved a lot of that over to crops. You keep complaining but you have yet to actually come back with anything to counter it.

    Ignoring all the money being pumped into selling meat there is no great campaign for meat eating??? Sounds a little ridiculous. Some people feel strongly about veganism and are voicing their opinion. Some want to sell more vegetables. I see no issue with either.

    I like that people are not hypocritical just their beliefs are? Much better.


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  • #112
    djmc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭djmc


    We really need to step our game and raise awareness of whats going on inside the farm gate whether through Facebook twitter or wherever. I have family members that are only one generation away from the farm that don't eat meat. I can see from comments on a recent article I wrote how little people in general know about farming. Questions like is it true that meat is filled with antibiotics and growth promoters and how often do we abuse cows by AI
    While that might seem laughable to the average farmer a lot of people out there believe it and the more propaganda spreads.
    The pig and poultry sectors have got an awful bad rep to the stage that even some farmers believe the lies that is being told.


  • #113
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Christy42 wrote: »
    You are simply dodging my argument at that stage.

    I have repeat said that eating a balanced diet of both is better. However you continue to ignore this. I stated some people have managed to eat healthier as a vegan than they did as a meat eater. And you keep attacking a strawman of it not being the perfect diet.

    I made a glib comment on the ploughing and you ran with it. Fair enough I should not have said it about ploughing. It still leaves you ignoring the core issue of raising the amount of farm animals we currently have as being worse for the environment than if we moved a lot of that over to crops. You keep complaining but you have yet to actually come back with anything to counter it.

    Ignoring all the money being pumped into selling meat there is no great campaign for meat eating??? Sounds a little ridiculous. Some people feel strongly about veganism and are voicing their opinion. Some want to sell more vegetables. I see no issue with either.

    I like that people are not hypocritical just their beliefs are? Much better.

    Equally many people have eaten better as omnivores than as veggie or vegan.

    Identifying with a particular diet does not make one healthy, they all have poor options that if chosen regularly will be detrimental to ones health.


  • #114
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,066 ✭✭✭Christy42


    _Brian wrote: »
    Equally many people have eaten better as omnivores than as veggie or vegan.

    Identifying with a particular diet does not make one healthy, they all have poor options that if chosen regularly will be detrimental to ones health.

    Yes. This is what I have said. This is not a counter to anything I have said.


  • #115
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,556 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    emaherx wrote: »
    Why meat?
    Because you happen to not like it?

    I think sprouts should be made unaffordable, evil little green spheres.

    Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

    The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

    Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.


  • #116
    thecomedian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭thecomedian


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

    The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

    Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.

    It’s suppose to keep the price down, that was one of the reasons for it.
    The EU has strict standards on what is produced here.
    All other parts of the world do not have these standards or regulations.
    Ours isn’t perfect but it’s way ahead of everywhere else.


  • #117
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Say my name wrote: »
    Ploughing a field does indeed contribute to global warming.

    https://medium.com/datadriveninvestor/why-ploughing-is-such-a-bad-idea-62956c17967c

    Water use in vegetables in Ireland is as much a factor as anywhere. Potato growers nowadays won't really take out land for sowing unless they've access to water bodies for irrigation.

    If the fields in for veg it'll usually have a pass from a bed tiller/Baiselier, subsoiler, destoner,powerharrow to work it to a fine tilt and remove stones if it's that type of land.


  • #118
    Say my name
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,776 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Waffletraktor wrote: »
    If the fields in for veg it'll usually have a pass from a bed tiller/Baiselier, subsoiler, destoner,powerharrow to work it to a fine tilt and remove stones if it's that type of land.

    Ah yea but sure that's all soil and carbon friendly.:pac:

    Local spudman here was watering a field all last year with pump from the river. There was as much clay washed out on the road as was left in the field. They won't take a field now unless they've water access. This is our new climate and ecological friendly future now I suppose.


  • #119
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Christy42 wrote: »
    You are simply dodging my argument at that stage.
    I have repeat said that eating a balanced diet of both is better. However you continue to ignore this. I stated some people have managed to eat healthier as a vegan than they did as a meat eater. And you keep attacking a strawman of it not being the perfect diet.

    I presume this is aimed at me? Incorrect. I've said nothing about one diet being 'better' or more or less 'perfect' than any other. I have linked to what the current guidelines about meat as part of healthy balanced diet are. Thats it really.
    Christy42 wrote: »
    If that the crutch that some people need to avoid processed food then I will applaud them as opposed to being offended by their existence. I said before most processed heavily salted food we eat is meat based. Not all but hey if you cut out meat it is a handy excuse to not eat any of that and feel pressured.

    Tbh I am not interested in your specific ideas about diet. The issue which I've highlighted is the misinformation and propaganda used against animal farming and meat as part of a healthy balanced diet in particular. One point though I would strongly disagree that 'most' highly processed food is 'meat based'. In the main its largely cheap carbs fried or processed with added salt, artificial sugars and sweeteners and god know what additives.
    Christy42 wrote: »
    Honestly most that I have seen is "yeah I don't eat meat for environmental reasons" "what how dare you compare meat to nuclear waste or call it the worst thing in the world". I live in this world. Meat as the worst thing ever is not prevelant. I have met plenty of vegetarians for all sorts of reasons. The closest I have seen to the above is a few pictures of pigs or cows which made me hungry. There are plenty of lies such that vegans can't get protein or whatever. They can. They may have to work for it but there are plenty who are much stronger than me for all my meat eating and fair play to them.

    Again not referring to some singular or throwaway comments - rather the ever present misinformation and bs repeated on a whole raft of pro plant food websites and elsewhere about farming whether that's water or land use. As for the old chestnut about vegans and protein - you may want to revisit that again. No evidence of it on boards eitherway. See: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110176733
    Christy42 wrote: »
    I made a glib comment on the ploughing and you ran with it. Fair enough I should not have said it about ploughing. It still leaves you ignoring the core issue of raising the amount of farm animals we currently have as being worse for the environment than if we moved a lot of that over to crops. You keep complaining but you have yet to actually come back with anything to counter it.

    Glib? In reality you presented it as something in support of crop cultivation. It doesnt wash. As pointed out cultivation in general is indeed harmful to the environment and a significant cause of carbon emissions. And no I'm not comparing the two. Both can be extremly bad or good depending on the farming methods employed.

    Again you ignore that it is not possible to move unsuitable land over to crops. By the singular reason that such land is unusable for arable production or similar. Interestingly that is one of the most often and seriously flawed pro vegan arguments out there. Agriculture should involve the best use of resources and where that means extensive rearing of livestock then that is a beneficial good. Plus do note we have less cattle in this country on the same land than we had in 1973. What we do have is a hell of a lot more people.
    Christy42 wrote: »
    Ignoring all the money being pumped into selling meat there is no great campaign for meat eating??? Sounds a little ridiculous. Some people feel strongly about veganism and are voicing their opinion. Some want to sell more vegetables. I see no issue with either.

    Again not grasping the basic premise that what you describe is regular advertising. Nothing stopping Icantbelievevitsnotaburger or whoever making similar claims. Rather It is the very active and vocal promotion of misinformation against animal farming repeatedly pushed by the plant food industry and the more extreme elements of the vegan movement. The vegan anti farming billboards are just one example of this agenda. Do they tell us how good tofu is? Do they heck! They portray farmers as mass murders and heartless villains amongst other daft horse manure nonsense. Not a mention of lovely veggies or tofu! Funnily enough people may also feel strongly about being omnivores but I dont see them voicing their opinion and putting up billboards saying how terrible plant eaters are.
    Christy42 wrote: »
    I like that people are not hypocritical just their beliefs are? Much better.

    Lol. Twisting there again. No matter but yes an idea or a statement can indeed be 'hypocritical." But you know that already.


  • #120
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Say my name wrote: »
    Ah yea but sure that's all soil and carbon friendly.:pac:

    Local spudman here was watering a field all last year with pump from the river. There was as much clay washed out on the road as was left in the field. They won't take a field now unless they've water access. This is our new climate and ecological friendly future now I suppose.

    Very soon he'll be told to build water stores and he can only have winter extraction and severe rain events at that crack. It's half the reason veg cropping is very concentrated these days as a proper underground mains and reservoir set up is silly money. Those alu pipes are 100 euro a pop usually in 9m sections for over grounds. Not playing by the rules is loose water licence and big fines as needs to be metered and epa informed of meters location off the pump for random visits.
    Though the land is getting rotten with disease.
    Lads getting excited about veganism and only growing veg is putting food production in the hands of a few huge farming corporations as it's monopolly money.
    Some land can take the abuse imo so long as it's not puddled into soup. This is an older guy we helped out this autumn as he had some ill health. 2'-15" of black silt over sand. He'd be as likely needing to irrigate his cereals to get them to harvest as grow a 20ton crop of spuds putting water on the type of ground.


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  • #121
    emaherx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,203 ✭✭✭emaherx


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

    The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

    Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.


    It's funny it looked like I had asked questions and didn't try to read your mind. Notice the question marks.

    By the way farming is far from the only subsidized industry in Ireland it just happens to be the most transparent.


  • #122
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

    The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

    Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.

    Yeah the Russians tried that. And then the Chinese tried that. And the end result was famine and the death of millions. But hey whose counting eh ...

    We farm livestock here because grass is the most successful crop cover for our topography and climatic conditions. 

    Do we need to support farming? Yes we do. It feeds people. Sometimes it takes others to recognise the value of what we have when Ireland is recognised as the world leader in food security. 

    Good article here on food security. With Ireland ranked number one ...

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/


  • #123
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,556 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    gozunda wrote: »
    Yeah the Russians tried that. And then the Chineese tried that. And the end result was famine and the death of millions. But hey whose counting eh ...

    We farm livestock here because grass is the most successful crop cover for our topography and climatic conditions. 

    Do we need to support farming? Yes we do. It feeds people. Sometimes it takes others to recognise the value of what we have when Ireland is recognised as the world leader in food security. 

    Good article here on food security. With Ireland ranked number one ...

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

    OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

    So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?


  • #124
    emaherx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,203 ✭✭✭emaherx


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

    So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?


    Which rival business that's not propped up by subsidies? The farmers supplying them are receiving subsidies. Do you think meat factories here are in financial trouble?


  • #125
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

    So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?

    Nope I dont. You asked for food security. Ireland has food security. And no nationalism of the sector needed to achieve this either. And you still have an issue with that?

    As detailed in the link above Ireland has excellent reputation for food security from a sector which produces top class foodstuffs. True this sector has historically recieved subsidies to help keep food prices low. The decoupling of many such subsidies now mean that whilst prices have remained low - the costs of production have not. Who wins?

    As for Frankenberger Inc and friends - I dont give a monkies about large corporate interests who dont give a crap for our national food security or otherwise.

    But anyway no point in rewriting what others have already said about the usual 'subsidies thou!' type attacks on agriculture.

    I hope Buford will excuse me quoting this comment which I believe explains who exactly receives subsidies here ...
    Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »
    Yes, farming is subsidised but probably less than any other sector in the wider Irish economy. But it's open and transparent and so makes it an easy target.

    So let's look at the other subsidies that aren't transparent but readily accepted as a 'right'. Sick pay, sick leave, holiday pay, holiday leave, minimum wages, dole, paternity leave, maternity leave, maternity pay etc etc etc. They're all, in effect, subsidies as they are an indirect benefit to those in receipt. And they're just the ones I thought of in two minutes.

    So I have no problem in not receiving any subsidies, my goods are sold at world market prices though I have to pay first world prices for my inputs and have first world restrictions on what inputs I can use. But let's see the level of support there is for the banning of ALL subsidies first.

    As the old saying goes, you never know who's swimming naked till the tide goes out:pac:


  • #126
    emaherx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,203 ✭✭✭emaherx


    gozunda wrote: »
    Nope I dont. You asked for food security. Ireland has food security. And no nationalism needed to achieve this either. And you still have an issue with that?

    As detailed in the link above Ireland has excellent reputation for food security from a sector which produces top class foodstuffs. True this sector has historically recieved subsidies to help keep food prices low. The decoupling of many such subsidies now mean that whilst prices have remained low - the costs of production have not. Who wins?

    As for Frankenberger Inc and friends - I dont give a monkies about large corporate interests who dont give a crap for our national food security or otherwise.

    But anyway no point in rewriting what others have already said about the usual 'subsidies thou!' type attacks on agriculture.

    I hope Buford will excuse me quoting this comment which I believe explains who exactly receives subsidies here ...

    Of course there is also subsidies grants and tax breaks offered directly to all kinds of industry from small manufacturers to multinational IT companies.


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  • #127
    Esho
    Registered Users Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Esho


    This made me think about when we were told to drink loads of water every day- around about the time it started to be widely sold

    Link to an article about who benefits from plant based

    https://theconversation.com/the-dark-side-of-plant-based-food-its-more-about-money-than-you-may-think-127272


  • #128
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,556 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    gozunda wrote: »
    Nope I dont. You asked for food security. Ireland has food security. And no nationalism of the sector needed to achieve this either. And you still have an issue with that?

    As detailed in the link above Ireland has excellent reputation for food security from a sector which produces top class foodstuffs. True this sector has historically recieved subsidies to help keep food prices low. The decoupling of many such subsidies now mean that whilst prices have remained low - the costs of production have not. Who wins?

    As for Frankenberger Inc and friends - I dont give a monkies about large corporate interests who dont give a crap for our national food security or otherwise.

    But anyway no point in rewriting what others have already said about the usual 'subsidies thou!' type attacks on agriculture.

    I hope Buford will excuse me quoting this comment which I believe explains who exactly receives subsidies here ...

    So your business couldn't survive without handouts, and you don't see the issue with mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts.

    I think you'd be furious if frankenburger was given the same handouts you're given. But to put them on a level playing field would be unfair for all the reasons, I'm quite sure ;)


  • #129
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    So your business couldn't survive without handouts, and you don't see the issue with mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts. I think you'd be furious if frankenburger was given the same handouts you're given. But to put them on a level playing field would be unfair for all the reasons, I'm quite sure ;)

    Did I say any of that? Nope. :D As for the name used - easier to use an imaginary one for sure.

    Why is that on a thread about those pushing plant food interests and using misinformation to do so - that some think it a good idea to attack agriculture on a completely unrelated topic rather than come up with any logical counter argument?

    You seem awfully caught up by the very strange idea of 'mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts'. Is this one of your businesses by any chance? Not get one of the many government subsidies or grants for your business or something?

    I'm quite happy that lots of industries here get grant's and / or subsidies and help support Irish exports and further employment opportunities that brings.

    Just cant quite figure out if your comments are simply deliberatly contrarian or you just dont like farming. But hey no matter.

    Btw you're the one that wanted Ireland to have food security and for food production to be nationalised. Now you are all for importing Frankenbeger inc products and paying them to sell us highly produced ****e? How is that going to benefit anyone or our food security ?


  • #130
    emaherx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,203 ✭✭✭emaherx


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    So your business couldn't survive without handouts, and you don't see the issue with mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts.

    I think you'd be furious if frankenburger was given the same handouts you're given. But to put them on a level playing field would be unfair for all the reasons, I'm quite sure ;)

    Same sort of subsidies for the ingredients of the frankenburgers as the ingredients of beef burgers you keep choosing to ignore that fact.

    497496.jpeg


  • #131
    davidk1394
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭davidk1394


    Interesting clip of a nutritionist comparing meat substitutes

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=537282353668377&id=22265760886


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  • #132
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,556 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    gozunda wrote: »
    Did I say any of that? Nope. :D As for the name used - easier to use an imaginary one for sure.

    Why is that on a thread about those pushing plant food interests and using misinformation to do so - that some think it a good idea to attack agriculture on a completely unrelated topic rather than come up with any logical counter argument?

    You seem awfully caught up by the very strange idea of 'mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts'. Is this one of your businesses by any chance? Not get one of the many government subsidies or grants for your business or something?

    I'm quite happy that lots of industries here get grant's and / or subsidies and help support Irish exports and further employment opportunities that brings.

    Just cant quite figure out if your comments are simply deliberatly contrarian or you just dont like farming. But hey no matter.

    Btw you're the one that wanted Ireland to have food security and for food production to be nationalised. Now you are all for importing Frankenbeger inc products and paying them to sell us highly produced ****e? How is that going to benefit anyone or our food security ?

    Yeah you said you see nothing wrong with that.

    And you also acknowledge your industry couldn't survive without the handouts - why else would hey bother worth them? So with all he advantages of the wonderful grass and the wonderful product and the tradition of people using your products by default, you still need handouts to compete. And still see nothing wrong with mocking a Company who who doesn't get the handouts.

    And no, I have nothing to do with subsidies. Not everyone can only see things from the POV of their own self Interest.


  • #133
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah you said you see nothing wrong with that. And you also acknowledge your industry couldn't survive without the handouts - why else would hey bother worth them? So with all he advantages of the wonderful grass and the wonderful product and the tradition of people using your products by default, you still need handouts to compete. And still see nothing wrong with mocking a Company who who doesn't get the handouts.
    And no, I have nothing to do with subsidies. Not everyone can only see things from the POV of their own self Interest.

    Bizarrely your comment comes across as being extremely bitter. Why is that?

    But as you said 'wonderful grass' and 'wonderful products' which as detailed even people elsewhere point out are major resouces which are beneficial to our country and economy.

    Btw you missed the question again. A reply would be great ..
    you're the one that wanted Ireland to have food security and for food production to be nationalised. Now you are all for importing Frankenbeger inc products and paying them to sell us highly produced ****e? How is that going to benefit anyone or our food security ?

    As to the bolded bit: Just to put your evident concern about that poor company 'Frankenbeger Inc' to bed - it is made up btw - it doesn't exist - so no they couldn't get any grant's for investment. But hey there we go eh?


  • #134
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    As to the original question who is behind the plant food / anti agriculture agenda. Looks like there is ample evidence of big business muscling in for a market share.

    Some one mentioned Beyond Meat earlier. Seems like it has recieved substantial funding from some big venture capitalists such as GreatPoint Ventures, Kleiner Perkins, Obvious Corporation, Bill Gates, Biz Stone

    Interestingly in 2019, a civil suit was filed against Beyond Meat by its former business partner, Don Lee Farms (despite the name yet another synthethic food company) after Beyond Meat switched to using different suppliers for its products. Don Lee Farms alleged breach of contract, and further alleged that they had expressed "significant concerns" about food safetyprotocols at Beyond Meat's facility.

    Of course Beyond meats aren't the only ones fighting for venture capital and market share.

    Good article here on the cut throat business practices of some of these corporate interests and details on who is backing who ...


    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/02/01/whats-really-behind-the-plant-based-diet-agenda/
    Last year, New Crop Capital (private venture firm) launched a $100 million “New Protein Fund” to focus on investments in alternative protein companies.

    The fund’s co-founder and chief investment officer (CIO), Chris Kerr, certainly believes there are fortunes to be made. “We will be rich, not matter what” he said in a pitch to a food manufacturing business, according Bloomberg Businessweek...

    Reportedly, Kerr created New Crop Capital with funding from “wealthy backers who wish to remain anonymous.” The December 2018 article said that the fund has stakes in 33 vegan food companies.

    Bloomberg summarised the discussion with the fund’s CIO, by stating: “To go truly global, in other words, vegan foods must be financialized and industrialized.”

    "Impossible Foods, yet another company receiving much of the alternative protein limelight, has attracted nearly $400 million in total funding. The company counts Google Ventures and Bill Gates among its investors.

    Gates is not the only high-profile billionaire backing the alternative protein mania. Richard Branson is another notable example, he is an investor in Memphis Meats – a synthetic protein start-up".

    I thought this quote was particularly relevant

    “Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good.” – Thomas Sowell


    Kind of reminds me of the line from Jurassic Park
    scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. 
    ...


  • #135
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    gozunda wrote: »
    Good article here on food security. With Ireland ranked number one ...

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/
    You need to critically assess that source.

    Notice that Singapore in number four on that list. Singapore imports 90% of its food, so you'll appreciate that the measure is not looking at resiliance delivered by the productivity of the domestic sector.

    We know from the Brexit issue that we are heavily dependent on food imports, and exposed to any interruption in supply.

    While awareness seems to be low, we're actually net food importers.
    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/ireland-has-been-net-importer-of-food-since-2000-un-data-reveals/

    the value of this country’s food energy net imports in calories has at times exceeded the equivalent of the calorie intake of 2.5 million people.
    The system isn't working for us. Any of us, producer or consumer.


  • #136
    ganmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Balf wrote: »
    You need to critically assess that source.

    Notice that Singapore in number four on that list. Singapore imports 90% of its food, so you'll appreciate that the measure is not looking at resiliance delivered by the productivity of the domestic sector.

    We know from the Brexit issue that we are heavily dependent on food imports, and exposed to any interruption in supply.

    While awareness seems to be low, we're actually net food importers.The system isn't working for us. Any of us, producer or consumer.

    our current diet is heavily dependent on imports along with our cloths etc.
    but it would be a very long time before Ireland would starve if importing food was stopped.
    regarding the report itself, economists create metrics all the time using other metrics and different weighting systems. Without reading the report I'm guessing Singapore ranked so highly due to their very affluent society.


  • #137
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    ganmo wrote: »
    our current diet is heavily dependent on imports along with our cloths etc.
    but it would be a very long time before Ireland would starve if importing food was stopped.
    regarding the report itself, economists create metrics all the time using other metrics and different weighting systems. Without reading the report I'm guessing Singapore ranked so highly due to their very affluent society.

    If imports stopped in the morning there would be an awful lot of empty shelves in 7-10 days.
    The food delivery chain is brief, nobody is carrying massive stocks of food.


  • #138
    ganmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    _Brian wrote: »
    If imports stopped in the morning there would be an awful lot of empty shelves in 7-10 days.
    The food delivery chain is brief, nobody is carrying massive stocks of food.

    ya there would be an immediate(3-4days) impact on the fresh fruit and veg
    medium term some bread and confectionery would go...actually there would be no sugar!!!
    in the long term there would be no plastic but there would be dairy, meat, spuds, veg and fruit in season


  • #139
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Balf wrote: »
    You need to critically assess that source. Notice that Singapore in number four on that list. Singapore imports 90% of its food, so you'll appreciate that the measure is not looking at resiliance delivered by the productivity of the domestic sector.We know from the Brexit issue that we are heavily dependent on food imports, and exposed to any interruption in supply.While awareness seems to be low, we're actually net food importers.The system isn't working for us. Any of us, producer or consumer.

    Balf - what is the thing with hanging around these type of discussions and apparently always looking down the wrong end of the telescope when agriculture is being discussed?

    I noted in a previous discussion we had that there appeared to be a strong undercurrent of anti-agricultural bias at work.

    To your comment here - If you read the read the report correctly there are two scores used - An Overall Food Security Score and the Adjusted Food Security Score.

    Countries scores are judged and adjusted according to certain factors
    Affordability
    Food consumption as share of household expenditure
    Proportion of population under global poverty line
    Gross domestic product per capita
    Agricultural import tariffs
    Presence of food safety net programs
    Access to financing for farmers
    Availability
    Sufficiency of supply
    Public expenditure on agricultural R&D
    Agricultural infrastructure
    Volatility of agricultural production
    Political stability risk
    Corruption
    Urban absorption capacity
    Food loss
    Quality And Safety
    Diet diversification
    Nutritional standards
    Micronutrient availability
    Protein quality
    Food safety

     Added in 2017
    Natural Resources And Resilience
    Exposure
    Water
    Land
    Oceans
    Sensitivity
    Adaptive capacity
    Demographic stresses

    So no it just doesn't look solely at what you refer to as "resiliance delivered by the productivity of the domestic sector" but does indeed include a whole range of factors including sufficiency of supply, agricultural infrastructure and volatility of agricultural production

    Adjusting for all the relevant factors Singapore moved from 4th place to 19th (near the bottom) whilst Ireland remained in first place on the Global Food Security Index.

    According to the article -
    Ireland has outspent the U.S. in relative terms on public research and development on agriculture over the past five years, increasing farming’s share of gross domestic product even as its economy has grown, according to data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development.

    No one claimed Ireland doesn't import food just as most nations around the world also do. We are also an island nation with a maritime influenced, mild and humid climate which means we import foodstuffs which we cannot produce here. That's not difficult to understand. I dont see that changing tbh unless you wish to move Ireland to some balmy location elsewhere.

    What the report highlights Is that Ireland is at the top of the list with Ireland being judged the world’s most “food-secure” nation, improving its food affordability, availability, quality and safety" 

    Whether you are a vegan or otherwise us immaterial imo. You may personally believe the system isn't working for you' - however the facts are that the we are excellent at the agricultural foodstuffs we do produce. Are we perfect? Far from it. Imo there are many aspects of our food production and security which require addressing.


  • #140
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    ganmo wrote: »
    ya there would be an immediate(3-4days) impact on the fresh fruit and veg
    medium term some bread and confectionery would go...actually there would be no sugar!!!
    in the long term there would be no plastic but there would be dairy, meat, spuds, veg and fruit in season

    Much of the population have no idea how to cook any meals from scratch. It would be a train wreck.


  • #141
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    _Brian wrote: »
    Much of the population have no idea how to cook any meals from scratch. It would be a train wreck.

    Ah sure they'd learn quickly enough ...


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  • #142
    roosterman71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,720 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

    So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    So your business couldn't survive without handouts, and you don't see the issue with mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts.

    I think you'd be furious if frankenburger was given the same handouts you're given. But to put them on a level playing field would be unfair for all the reasons, I'm quite sure ;)

    This is the second time you've spouted this "handout" nonsense. They are subsidies to keep the cost of food on the shelf cheap and plentiful. And it's worked well don't you think? Food is as cheap as ever. Irish people spend something like 8% of their money on food. It's gone down over the last few years. It's a ridiculously low amount of money to sustain yourself. Compare it what is spent on unnecessary ****e like tvs, phones, hairdos, pints!

    For context, the last 2 companies I've worked for got huge grants. One, got a new facility built by the IDA, then after 2 years left the country and set up shop in Poland. The second, got huge money for R&D. They get more for training their staff each year (I know as I still work there and after each course there's Revenue evaluation forms to fill in). Note that all this money ultimately leaves the country to the HQ of these internationals. Whereas a farmers subsidy is spent in the local coop, the local pub, the local shop. It keeps rural Ireland alive, and keeps food on your table


  • #143
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    roosterman71 wrote: »
    This is the second time you've spouted this "handout" nonsense. They are subsidies to keep the cost of food on the shelf cheap and plentiful. And it's worked well don't you think? Food is as cheap as ever. Irish people spend something like 8% of their money on food. It's gone down over the last few years. It's a ridiculously low amount of money to sustain yourself. Compare it what is spent on unnecessary ****e like tvs, phones, hairdos, pints!

    For context, the last 2 companies I've worked for got huge grants. One, got a new facility built by the IDA, then after 2 years left the country and set up shop in Poland. The second, got huge money for R&D. They get more for training their staff each year (I know as I still work there and after each course there's Revenue evaluation forms to fill in). Note that all this money ultimately leaves the country to the HQ of these internationals. Whereas a farmers subsidy is spent in the local coop, the local pub, the local shop. It keeps rural Ireland alive, and keeps food on your table

    CAP has provided more food no doubt, but at a cost. Only 1% of water catchments are of pristine water quality, fields silent of once common species like corncrake, 33% of bee species endanger of extinction in Ireland. Traditional hay meadows replaced with ryegrass monocultures. Patchwork of extensive hedgerows vastly decreased. Farmers who once could make a living milking on a small herd of cows. Majority of beef struggling.....


  • #144
    roosterman71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,720 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    CAP has provided more food no doubt, but at a cost. Only 1% of water catchments are of pristine water quality, fields silent of once common species like corncrake, 33% of bee species endanger of extinction in Ireland. Traditional hay meadows replaced with ryegrass monocultures. Patchwork of extensive hedgerows vastly decreased. Farmers who once could make a living milking on a small herd of cows. Majority of beef struggling.....

    Agreed with all that. Is it the farmer to blame here for that? Or the advisors/government? All the talk the last few years has been expand expand and expand. Especially dairy. And at what cost? Farmers expenses sky rocket with newer facilities, more animals, more input costs. Yet the price at the gate has stagnated/reduced.

    I feel we're getting side tracked here on the original post though :-)


  • #145
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    gozunda wrote: »
    What the report highlights Is that Ireland is at the top of the list with Ireland being judged the world’s most “food-secure” nation, improving its food affordability, availability, quality and safety" 
    Fine, and I'm saying that has nothing to do with the ability of Irish farmers to meet domestic needs. Because Irish agriculture is heavily dependent on the production of a few products for export.

    So if there's an interruption in trade, say on foot of Brexit, Irish consumers will be faced with empty shelves, while Irish farmers will be faced with lots of product of no use to anyone.

    So a survey saying we're the most food secure place on Earth is obviously not about that practical, possible, risk.

    Do you disagree? Are you one of those people who is apparently oblivious to our reliance on imports for even basic products like potatoes? Is your knowledge of the national supply chain based on the big poster on the wall of your local Aldi?


  • #146
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Balf wrote: »
    Fine, and I'm saying that has nothing to do with the ability of Irish farmers to meet domestic needs. Because Irish agriculture is heavily dependent on the production of a few products for export.
    So if there's an interruption in trade, say on foot of Brexit, Irish consumers will be faced with empty shelves, while Irish farmers will be faced with lots of product of no use to anyone.
    So a survey saying we're the most food secure place on Earth is obviously not about that practical, possible, risk. Do you disagree? Are you one of those people who is apparently oblivious to our reliance on imports for even basic products like potatoes? Is your knowledge of the national supply chain based on the big poster on the wall of your local Aldi?

    True - you waded in claiming that the Irelands place in the rankings were questionable because of something something about Singapore.

    No where was it claimed that 'a survey saying we're the most food secure place on Earth is about that practical, possible, risk". The rankings are what they are and Ireland does extremly well with that. Credit where credit is due.

    We produce that which does well. No one has claimed we can produce absolutely everything. And yes as an Island Nation we both export and import a wide range of goods and foodstuffs.

    If there is an interruption of supply - people will have to forgoe their avocados and quinoa for a while. Yes and maybe even cheap white bread and sugar and tea and coffee.

    But no one will starve as we certainly produce enough basics to feed people as long as suitable measures are implemented.

    And no as detailed I am not "one of those people who is apparently oblivious to our reliance on imports for even basic products like potatoes"

    The facts are that we import potatoes for a variety of reasons including seasonality as in the case of new potatoes to particular varieties which are used for specific uses such as chips etc. According to Teagasc recent developments in cold storage technology means that Ireland is now close to being self sufficient in a main crop potato supply . Ok so we would have to forgoe baby potatoes month in month out and not consume chips and crisps etc but yes if the boats stopped coming I reckon we would manage an adequate supply ok.

    Tbh I reckon my knowledge of the supply chain is adequate and no offence meant but better than a lot of people who know little if anything about farming and agriculture yourself included

    That said Aldi and its rival do have a fairly good selection of Irish produce despite globalisation But there we go - the more people who buy Irish goods the better for everyone imo.


  • #147
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Not much point buying Irish at 39 cents a unit. Until supermarkets stop below cost selling of fresh produce irish horticulture is never going to flourish outside one or two niche areas.

    As for veganism - there is no actual agenda- just a generational shift based on various factors - much of which is down to health concerns, be it personal or environmental.

    The Silent Spring is almost here.


  • #148
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Not much point buying Irish at 39 cents a unit. Until supermarkets stop below cost selling of fresh produce irish horticulture is never going to flourish outside one or two niche areas.

    As for veganism - there is no actual agenda - just a generational shift based on various factors - much of which is down to health concerns, be it personal or environmental.

    The Silent Spring is almost here.

    True and as detailed there is room for improvement in price paid to all producers here. And not just horticultural produce.

    To be fair veganism occupies a tiny niche. That said lots of the foodstuffs eaten by plant food enthusiasts are cheap imports and come from regions of the world with few if any environmental or ethical standards.

    And as pointed out above an agenda appears to be certainly being pushed by the global multi billion dollar synthetic food industry.

    Silent Spring was Rachel's Carsons book about the use of chemicals mainly in the arable and horticultural sectors in the US in tte 1960s. And notably an issue still prevalent in many countries we import foodstuffs from.


  • #149
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    gozunda wrote: »
    Well as detailed there is room for improvement in price paid to all producers here. And not just horticultural produce.

    To ge fair veganism occupies a tiny niche. That said lots of the foodstuffs eaten by plant food enthusiasts are cheap imports and come from regions of the world with few if any environmental or ethical standards.

    And as pointed out above an agenda appears to be certainly being pushed by the global multi billion dollar synthetic food industry.

    Silent Spring was Rachel's Carsons book about the use of chemicals mainly in the arable and horticultural sectors in the US in tte 1960s. And notably an issue still prevalent in many countries we import foodstuffs from.

    Silent Spring can be applied to this Country as well. With shifting baseline syndrome, successive generations don't even realize the loss in biodiversity....


  • #150
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Not much point buying Irish at 39 cents a unit. Until supermarkets stop below cost selling of fresh produce irish horticulture is never going to flourish outside one or two niche areas.

    As for veganism - there is no actual agenda- just a generational shift based on various factors - much of which is down to health concerns, be it personal or environmental.

    The Silent Spring is almost here.

    Veganism is getting plenty of airtime at present because the orchestrators cleverly latched onto climate and there were a number of high profile reports paid for that linked animal farming to being the No1 climate issue. Most of that hack science is being corrected now and indeed evidence is pointing towards grazing of animals on farms as being a wider a gong tool on carbon sequesteuan into soils at rates higher than forestry.

    Again, something like 83% of vegans will drop the ethos within a year and return to a regular omnivorous diet as is normal for humans. Humans are omnivores by evolution where veganism is a choice, typically a first world choice too.

    Nobody really cares how many vegans there are and unless I’m inviting you to dinner(I’m not doing that) I don’t need to know your a vegan or hear anything about it The big problem lies with the irrational need to force everyone to adopt a lifestyle that is completly abnormal for humans, there is no actual evidence that it can be sustained at a population level nor the health implications for the wider population particularly those who don’t supplement heavily. It’s no coincidence that few if any state registered dietitians in Ireland endorse a vegan lifestyle because of concerns about the nutritional content and deficiencies.

    Be a vegan, absolutely I admire such conviction and belief

    Don’t try and pretend it’s the only way forward or that it needs to be widely adopted.

    Don’t fall for the lie that farming is the primary climate issue, burning fossil fuels far far outweighs it, and does nothing in return.

    Don’t be a nuisance to society abusing people in and out of butcher shops, there was a video of some cowards abusing older ladies at a butcher shop in Ireland this year, younger people in masks abusing old ladies in the streets is disgusting.


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  • #151
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Silent Spring can be applied to this Country as well. With shifting baseline syndrome, successive generations don't even realize the loss in biodiversity....

    I've read the book and whilst we have problems here - it bears little resemblence to the issues of arable and horticultural production to the US in the 1960s as detailed in Rachel's Carson's book. But the main point being - swapping everything to plant food as in arable and horticultural production (even if that were possible) Is certainly no panacea to the issues of cheap food production or a healthy environment.


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