Veganism: Who is behind the Agenda?

gozunda

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.

Yeah the Russians tried that. And then the Chinese tried that. And the end result was famine and the death of millions. But hey whose counting eh ...

We farm livestock here because grass is the most successful crop cover for our topography and climatic conditions. 

Do we need to support farming? Yes we do. It feeds people. Sometimes it takes others to recognise the value of what we have when Ireland is recognised as the world leader in food security. 

Good article here on food security. With Ireland ranked number one ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah the Russians tried that. And then the Chineese tried that. And the end result was famine and the death of millions. But hey whose counting eh ...

We farm livestock here because grass is the most successful crop cover for our topography and climatic conditions. 

Do we need to support farming? Yes we do. It feeds people. Sometimes it takes others to recognise the value of what we have when Ireland is recognised as the world leader in food security. 

Good article here on food security. With Ireland ranked number one ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?

Which rival business that's not propped up by subsidies? The farmers supplying them are receiving subsidies. Do you think meat factories here are in financial trouble?

gozunda

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?

Nope I dont. You asked for food security. Ireland has food security. And no nationalism of the sector needed to achieve this either. And you still have an issue with that?

As detailed in the link above Ireland has excellent reputation for food security from a sector which produces top class foodstuffs. True this sector has historically recieved subsidies to help keep food prices low. The decoupling of many such subsidies now mean that whilst prices have remained low - the costs of production have not. Who wins?

As for Frankenberger Inc and friends - I dont give a monkies about large corporate interests who dont give a crap for our national food security or otherwise.

But anyway no point in rewriting what others have already said about the usual 'subsidies thou!' type attacks on agriculture.

I hope Buford will excuse me quoting this comment which I believe explains who exactly receives subsidies here ...

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Yes, farming is subsidised but probably less than any other sector in the wider Irish economy. But it's open and transparent and so makes it an easy target.

So let's look at the other subsidies that aren't transparent but readily accepted as a 'right'. Sick pay, sick leave, holiday pay, holiday leave, minimum wages, dole, paternity leave, maternity leave, maternity pay etc etc etc. They're all, in effect, subsidies as they are an indirect benefit to those in receipt. And they're just the ones I thought of in two minutes.

So I have no problem in not receiving any subsidies, my goods are sold at world market prices though I have to pay first world prices for my inputs and have first world restrictions on what inputs I can use. But let's see the level of support there is for the banning of ALL subsidies first.

As the old saying goes, you never know who's swimming naked till the tide goes out:pac:

emaherx

gozunda wrote: »

Nope I dont. You asked for food security. Ireland has food security. And no nationalism needed to achieve this either. And you still have an issue with that?

As detailed in the link above Ireland has excellent reputation for food security from a sector which produces top class foodstuffs. True this sector has historically recieved subsidies to help keep food prices low. The decoupling of many such subsidies now mean that whilst prices have remained low - the costs of production have not. Who wins?

As for Frankenberger Inc and friends - I dont give a monkies about large corporate interests who dont give a crap for our national food security or otherwise.

But anyway no point in rewriting what others have already said about the usual 'subsidies thou!' type attacks on agriculture.

I hope Buford will excuse me quoting this comment which I believe explains who exactly receives subsidies here ...

Of course there is also subsidies grants and tax breaks offered directly to all kinds of industry from small manufacturers to multinational IT companies.

Esho

This made me think about when we were told to drink loads of water every day- around about the time it started to be widely sold

Link to an article about who benefits from plant based

https://theconversation.com/the-dark-side-of-plant-based-food-its-more-about-money-than-you-may-think-127272

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

Nope I dont. You asked for food security. Ireland has food security. And no nationalism of the sector needed to achieve this either. And you still have an issue with that?

As detailed in the link above Ireland has excellent reputation for food security from a sector which produces top class foodstuffs. True this sector has historically recieved subsidies to help keep food prices low. The decoupling of many such subsidies now mean that whilst prices have remained low - the costs of production have not. Who wins?

As for Frankenberger Inc and friends - I dont give a monkies about large corporate interests who dont give a crap for our national food security or otherwise.

But anyway no point in rewriting what others have already said about the usual 'subsidies thou!' type attacks on agriculture.

I hope Buford will excuse me quoting this comment which I believe explains who exactly receives subsidies here ...

So your business couldn't survive without handouts, and you don't see the issue with mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts.

I think you'd be furious if frankenburger was given the same handouts you're given. But to put them on a level playing field would be unfair for all the reasons, I'm quite sure

gozunda

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So your business couldn't survive without handouts, and you don't see the issue with mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts. I think you'd be furious if frankenburger was given the same handouts you're given. But to put them on a level playing field would be unfair for all the reasons, I'm quite sure

Did I say any of that? Nope. As for the name used - easier to use an imaginary one for sure.

Why is that on a thread about those pushing plant food interests and using misinformation to do so - that some think it a good idea to attack agriculture on a completely unrelated topic rather than come up with any logical counter argument?

You seem awfully caught up by the very strange idea of 'mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts'. Is this one of your businesses by any chance? Not get one of the many government subsidies or grants for your business or something?

I'm quite happy that lots of industries here get grant's and / or subsidies and help support Irish exports and further employment opportunities that brings.

Just cant quite figure out if your comments are simply deliberatly contrarian or you just dont like farming. But hey no matter.

Btw you're the one that wanted Ireland to have food security and for food production to be nationalised. Now you are all for importing Frankenbeger inc products and paying them to sell us highly produced ****e? How is that going to benefit anyone or our food security ?

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So your business couldn't survive without handouts, and you don't see the issue with mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts.

I think you'd be furious if frankenburger was given the same handouts you're given. But to put them on a level playing field would be unfair for all the reasons, I'm quite sure

Same sort of subsidies for the ingredients of the frankenburgers as the ingredients of beef burgers you keep choosing to ignore that fact.

davidk1394

Interesting clip of a nutritionist comparing meat substitutes

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=537282353668377&id=22265760886

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

Did I say any of that? Nope. As for the name used - easier to use an imaginary one for sure.

Why is that on a thread about those pushing plant food interests and using misinformation to do so - that some think it a good idea to attack agriculture on a completely unrelated topic rather than come up with any logical counter argument?

You seem awfully caught up by the very strange idea of 'mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts'. Is this one of your businesses by any chance? Not get one of the many government subsidies or grants for your business or something?

I'm quite happy that lots of industries here get grant's and / or subsidies and help support Irish exports and further employment opportunities that brings.

Just cant quite figure out if your comments are simply deliberatly contrarian or you just dont like farming. But hey no matter.

Btw you're the one that wanted Ireland to have food security and for food production to be nationalised. Now you are all for importing Frankenbeger inc products and paying them to sell us highly produced ****e? How is that going to benefit anyone or our food security ?

Yeah you said you see nothing wrong with that.

And you also acknowledge your industry couldn't survive without the handouts - why else would hey bother worth them? So with all he advantages of the wonderful grass and the wonderful product and the tradition of people using your products by default, you still need handouts to compete. And still see nothing wrong with mocking a Company who who doesn't get the handouts.

And no, I have nothing to do with subsidies. Not everyone can only see things from the POV of their own self Interest.

gozunda

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah you said you see nothing wrong with that. And you also acknowledge your industry couldn't survive without the handouts - why else would hey bother worth them? So with all he advantages of the wonderful grass and the wonderful product and the tradition of people using your products by default, you still need handouts to compete. And still see nothing wrong with mocking a Company who who doesn't get the handouts.
And no, I have nothing to do with subsidies. Not everyone can only see things from the POV of their own self Interest.

Bizarrely your comment comes across as being extremely bitter. Why is that?

But as you said 'wonderful grass' and 'wonderful products' which as detailed even people elsewhere point out are major resouces which are beneficial to our country and economy.

Btw you missed the question again. A reply would be great ..

you're the one that wanted Ireland to have food security and for food production to be nationalised. Now you are all for importing Frankenbeger inc products and paying them to sell us highly produced ****e? How is that going to benefit anyone or our food security ?

As to the bolded bit: Just to put your evident concern about that poor company 'Frankenbeger Inc' to bed - it is made up btw - it doesn't exist - so no they couldn't get any grant's for investment. But hey there we go eh?

gozunda

As to the original question who is behind the plant food / anti agriculture agenda. Looks like there is ample evidence of big business muscling in for a market share.

Some one mentioned Beyond Meat earlier. Seems like it has recieved substantial funding from some big venture capitalists such as GreatPoint Ventures, Kleiner Perkins, Obvious Corporation, Bill Gates, Biz Stone

Interestingly in 2019, a civil suit was filed against Beyond Meat by its former business partner, Don Lee Farms (despite the name yet another synthethic food company) after Beyond Meat switched to using different suppliers for its products. Don Lee Farms alleged breach of contract, and further alleged that they had expressed "significant concerns" about food safetyprotocols at Beyond Meat's facility.

Of course Beyond meats aren't the only ones fighting for venture capital and market share.

Good article here on the cut throat business practices of some of these corporate interests and details on who is backing who ...


https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/02/01/whats-really-behind-the-plant-based-diet-agenda/

Last year, New Crop Capital (private venture firm) launched a $100 million “New Protein Fund” to focus on investments in alternative protein companies.

The fund’s co-founder and chief investment officer (CIO), Chris Kerr, certainly believes there are fortunes to be made. “We will be rich, not matter what” he said in a pitch to a food manufacturing business, according Bloomberg Businessweek...

Reportedly, Kerr created New Crop Capital with funding from “wealthy backers who wish to remain anonymous.” The December 2018 article said that the fund has stakes in 33 vegan food companies.

Bloomberg summarised the discussion with the fund’s CIO, by stating: “To go truly global, in other words, vegan foods must be financialized and industrialized.”

"Impossible Foods, yet another company receiving much of the alternative protein limelight, has attracted nearly $400 million in total funding. The company counts Google Ventures and Bill Gates among its investors.

Gates is not the only high-profile billionaire backing the alternative protein mania. Richard Branson is another notable example, he is an investor in Memphis Meats – a synthetic protein start-up".

I thought this quote was particularly relevant

“Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good.” – Thomas Sowell


Kind of reminds me of the line from Jurassic Park

scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. 

...

Balf

gozunda wrote: »

Good article here on food security. With Ireland ranked number one ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

You need to critically assess that source.

Notice that Singapore in number four on that list. Singapore imports 90% of its food, so you'll appreciate that the measure is not looking at resiliance delivered by the productivity of the domestic sector.

We know from the Brexit issue that we are heavily dependent on food imports, and exposed to any interruption in supply.

While awareness seems to be low, we're actually net food importers.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/ireland-has-been-net-importer-of-food-since-2000-un-data-reveals/

the value of this country’s food energy net imports in calories has at times exceeded the equivalent of the calorie intake of 2.5 million people.

The system isn't working for us. Any of us, producer or consumer.

ganmo

Balf wrote: »

You need to critically assess that source.

Notice that Singapore in number four on that list. Singapore imports 90% of its food, so you'll appreciate that the measure is not looking at resiliance delivered by the productivity of the domestic sector.

We know from the Brexit issue that we are heavily dependent on food imports, and exposed to any interruption in supply.

While awareness seems to be low, we're actually net food importers.The system isn't working for us. Any of us, producer or consumer.

our current diet is heavily dependent on imports along with our cloths etc.
but it would be a very long time before Ireland would starve if importing food was stopped.
regarding the report itself, economists create metrics all the time using other metrics and different weighting systems. Without reading the report I'm guessing Singapore ranked so highly due to their very affluent society.

_Brian

ganmo wrote: »

our current diet is heavily dependent on imports along with our cloths etc.
but it would be a very long time before Ireland would starve if importing food was stopped.
regarding the report itself, economists create metrics all the time using other metrics and different weighting systems. Without reading the report I'm guessing Singapore ranked so highly due to their very affluent society.

If imports stopped in the morning there would be an awful lot of empty shelves in 7-10 days.
The food delivery chain is brief, nobody is carrying massive stocks of food.

ganmo

_Brian wrote: »

If imports stopped in the morning there would be an awful lot of empty shelves in 7-10 days.
The food delivery chain is brief, nobody is carrying massive stocks of food.

ya there would be an immediate(3-4days) impact on the fresh fruit and veg
medium term some bread and confectionery would go...actually there would be no sugar!!!
in the long term there would be no plastic but there would be dairy, meat, spuds, veg and fruit in season

gozunda

Balf wrote: »

You need to critically assess that source. Notice that Singapore in number four on that list. Singapore imports 90% of its food, so you'll appreciate that the measure is not looking at resiliance delivered by the productivity of the domestic sector.We know from the Brexit issue that we are heavily dependent on food imports, and exposed to any interruption in supply.While awareness seems to be low, we're actually net food importers.The system isn't working for us. Any of us, producer or consumer.

Balf - what is the thing with hanging around these type of discussions and apparently always looking down the wrong end of the telescope when agriculture is being discussed?

I noted in a previous discussion we had that there appeared to be a strong undercurrent of anti-agricultural bias at work.

To your comment here - If you read the read the report correctly there are two scores used - An Overall Food Security Score and the Adjusted Food Security Score.

Countries scores are judged and adjusted according to certain factors

Affordability
Food consumption as share of household expenditure
Proportion of population under global poverty line
Gross domestic product per capita
Agricultural import tariffs
Presence of food safety net programs
Access to financing for farmers
Availability
Sufficiency of supply
Public expenditure on agricultural R&D
Agricultural infrastructure
Volatility of agricultural production
Political stability risk
Corruption
Urban absorption capacity
Food loss
Quality And Safety
Diet diversification
Nutritional standards
Micronutrient availability
Protein quality
Food safety

 Added in 2017
Natural Resources And Resilience
Exposure
Water
Land
Oceans
Sensitivity
Adaptive capacity
Demographic stresses

So no it just doesn't look solely at what you refer to as "resiliance delivered by the productivity of the domestic sector" but does indeed include a whole range of factors including sufficiency of supply, agricultural infrastructure and volatility of agricultural production

Adjusting for all the relevant factors Singapore moved from 4th place to 19th (near the bottom) whilst Ireland remained in first place on the Global Food Security Index.

According to the article -

Ireland has outspent the U.S. in relative terms on public research and development on agriculture over the past five years, increasing farming’s share of gross domestic product even as its economy has grown, according to data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development.

No one claimed Ireland doesn't import food just as most nations around the world also do. We are also an island nation with a maritime influenced, mild and humid climate which means we import foodstuffs which we cannot produce here. That's not difficult to understand. I dont see that changing tbh unless you wish to move Ireland to some balmy location elsewhere.

What the report highlights Is that Ireland is at the top of the list with Ireland being judged the world’s most “food-secure” nation, improving its food affordability, availability, quality and safety" 

Whether you are a vegan or otherwise us immaterial imo. You may personally believe the system isn't working for you' - however the facts are that the we are excellent at the agricultural foodstuffs we do produce. Are we perfect? Far from it. Imo there are many aspects of our food production and security which require addressing.

_Brian

ganmo wrote: »

ya there would be an immediate(3-4days) impact on the fresh fruit and veg
medium term some bread and confectionery would go...actually there would be no sugar!!!
in the long term there would be no plastic but there would be dairy, meat, spuds, veg and fruit in season

Much of the population have no idea how to cook any meals from scratch. It would be a train wreck.

gozunda

_Brian wrote: »

Much of the population have no idea how to cook any meals from scratch. It would be a train wreck.

Ah sure they'd learn quickly enough ...

roosterman71

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So your business couldn't survive without handouts, and you don't see the issue with mocking other business who lose share price, even though they don't get the same handouts.

I think you'd be furious if frankenburger was given the same handouts you're given. But to put them on a level playing field would be unfair for all the reasons, I'm quite sure

This is the second time you've spouted this "handout" nonsense. They are subsidies to keep the cost of food on the shelf cheap and plentiful. And it's worked well don't you think? Food is as cheap as ever. Irish people spend something like 8% of their money on food. It's gone down over the last few years. It's a ridiculously low amount of money to sustain yourself. Compare it what is spent on unnecessary ****e like tvs, phones, hairdos, pints!

For context, the last 2 companies I've worked for got huge grants. One, got a new facility built by the IDA, then after 2 years left the country and set up shop in Poland. The second, got huge money for R&D. They get more for training their staff each year (I know as I still work there and after each course there's Revenue evaluation forms to fill in). Note that all this money ultimately leaves the country to the HQ of these internationals. Whereas a farmers subsidy is spent in the local coop, the local pub, the local shop. It keeps rural Ireland alive, and keeps food on your table

Capercaillie

roosterman71 wrote: »

This is the second time you've spouted this "handout" nonsense. They are subsidies to keep the cost of food on the shelf cheap and plentiful. And it's worked well don't you think? Food is as cheap as ever. Irish people spend something like 8% of their money on food. It's gone down over the last few years. It's a ridiculously low amount of money to sustain yourself. Compare it what is spent on unnecessary ****e like tvs, phones, hairdos, pints!

For context, the last 2 companies I've worked for got huge grants. One, got a new facility built by the IDA, then after 2 years left the country and set up shop in Poland. The second, got huge money for R&D. They get more for training their staff each year (I know as I still work there and after each course there's Revenue evaluation forms to fill in). Note that all this money ultimately leaves the country to the HQ of these internationals. Whereas a farmers subsidy is spent in the local coop, the local pub, the local shop. It keeps rural Ireland alive, and keeps food on your table

CAP has provided more food no doubt, but at a cost. Only 1% of water catchments are of pristine water quality, fields silent of once common species like corncrake, 33% of bee species endanger of extinction in Ireland. Traditional hay meadows replaced with ryegrass monocultures. Patchwork of extensive hedgerows vastly decreased. Farmers who once could make a living milking on a small herd of cows. Majority of beef struggling.....

roosterman71

Capercaillie wrote: »

CAP has provided more food no doubt, but at a cost. Only 1% of water catchments are of pristine water quality, fields silent of once common species like corncrake, 33% of bee species endanger of extinction in Ireland. Traditional hay meadows replaced with ryegrass monocultures. Patchwork of extensive hedgerows vastly decreased. Farmers who once could make a living milking on a small herd of cows. Majority of beef struggling.....

Agreed with all that. Is it the farmer to blame here for that? Or the advisors/government? All the talk the last few years has been expand expand and expand. Especially dairy. And at what cost? Farmers expenses sky rocket with newer facilities, more animals, more input costs. Yet the price at the gate has stagnated/reduced.

I feel we're getting side tracked here on the original post though :-)

Balf

gozunda wrote: »

What the report highlights Is that Ireland is at the top of the list with Ireland being judged the world’s most “food-secure” nation, improving its food affordability, availability, quality and safety" 

Fine, and I'm saying that has nothing to do with the ability of Irish farmers to meet domestic needs. Because Irish agriculture is heavily dependent on the production of a few products for export.

So if there's an interruption in trade, say on foot of Brexit, Irish consumers will be faced with empty shelves, while Irish farmers will be faced with lots of product of no use to anyone.

So a survey saying we're the most food secure place on Earth is obviously not about that practical, possible, risk.

Do you disagree? Are you one of those people who is apparently oblivious to our reliance on imports for even basic products like potatoes? Is your knowledge of the national supply chain based on the big poster on the wall of your local Aldi?

gozunda

Balf wrote: »

Fine, and I'm saying that has nothing to do with the ability of Irish farmers to meet domestic needs. Because Irish agriculture is heavily dependent on the production of a few products for export.
So if there's an interruption in trade, say on foot of Brexit, Irish consumers will be faced with empty shelves, while Irish farmers will be faced with lots of product of no use to anyone.
So a survey saying we're the most food secure place on Earth is obviously not about that practical, possible, risk. Do you disagree? Are you one of those people who is apparently oblivious to our reliance on imports for even basic products like potatoes? Is your knowledge of the national supply chain based on the big poster on the wall of your local Aldi?

True - you waded in claiming that the Irelands place in the rankings were questionable because of something something about Singapore.

No where was it claimed that 'a survey saying we're the most food secure place on Earth is about that practical, possible, risk". The rankings are what they are and Ireland does extremly well with that. Credit where credit is due.

We produce that which does well. No one has claimed we can produce absolutely everything. And yes as an Island Nation we both export and import a wide range of goods and foodstuffs.

If there is an interruption of supply - people will have to forgoe their avocados and quinoa for a while. Yes and maybe even cheap white bread and sugar and tea and coffee.

But no one will starve as we certainly produce enough basics to feed people as long as suitable measures are implemented.

And no as detailed I am not "one of those people who is apparently oblivious to our reliance on imports for even basic products like potatoes"

The facts are that we import potatoes for a variety of reasons including seasonality as in the case of new potatoes to particular varieties which are used for specific uses such as chips etc. According to Teagasc recent developments in cold storage technology means that Ireland is now close to being self sufficient in a main crop potato supply . Ok so we would have to forgoe baby potatoes month in month out and not consume chips and crisps etc but yes if the boats stopped coming I reckon we would manage an adequate supply ok.

Tbh I reckon my knowledge of the supply chain is adequate and no offence meant but better than a lot of people who know little if anything about farming and agriculture yourself included

That said Aldi and its rival do have a fairly good selection of Irish produce despite globalisation But there we go - the more people who buy Irish goods the better for everyone imo.

Harry Palmr

Not much point buying Irish at 39 cents a unit. Until supermarkets stop below cost selling of fresh produce irish horticulture is never going to flourish outside one or two niche areas.

As for veganism - there is no actual agenda- just a generational shift based on various factors - much of which is down to health concerns, be it personal or environmental.

The Silent Spring is almost here.

gozunda

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Not much point buying Irish at 39 cents a unit. Until supermarkets stop below cost selling of fresh produce irish horticulture is never going to flourish outside one or two niche areas.

As for veganism - there is no actual agenda - just a generational shift based on various factors - much of which is down to health concerns, be it personal or environmental.

The Silent Spring is almost here.

True and as detailed there is room for improvement in price paid to all producers here. And not just horticultural produce.

To be fair veganism occupies a tiny niche. That said lots of the foodstuffs eaten by plant food enthusiasts are cheap imports and come from regions of the world with few if any environmental or ethical standards.

And as pointed out above an agenda appears to be certainly being pushed by the global multi billion dollar synthetic food industry.

Silent Spring was Rachel's Carsons book about the use of chemicals mainly in the arable and horticultural sectors in the US in tte 1960s. And notably an issue still prevalent in many countries we import foodstuffs from.

Capercaillie

gozunda wrote: »

Well as detailed there is room for improvement in price paid to all producers here. And not just horticultural produce.

To ge fair veganism occupies a tiny niche. That said lots of the foodstuffs eaten by plant food enthusiasts are cheap imports and come from regions of the world with few if any environmental or ethical standards.

And as pointed out above an agenda appears to be certainly being pushed by the global multi billion dollar synthetic food industry.

Silent Spring was Rachel's Carsons book about the use of chemicals mainly in the arable and horticultural sectors in the US in tte 1960s. And notably an issue still prevalent in many countries we import foodstuffs from.

Silent Spring can be applied to this Country as well. With shifting baseline syndrome, successive generations don't even realize the loss in biodiversity....

_Brian

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Not much point buying Irish at 39 cents a unit. Until supermarkets stop below cost selling of fresh produce irish horticulture is never going to flourish outside one or two niche areas.

As for veganism - there is no actual agenda- just a generational shift based on various factors - much of which is down to health concerns, be it personal or environmental.

The Silent Spring is almost here.

Veganism is getting plenty of airtime at present because the orchestrators cleverly latched onto climate and there were a number of high profile reports paid for that linked animal farming to being the No1 climate issue. Most of that hack science is being corrected now and indeed evidence is pointing towards grazing of animals on farms as being a wider a gong tool on carbon sequesteuan into soils at rates higher than forestry.

Again, something like 83% of vegans will drop the ethos within a year and return to a regular omnivorous diet as is normal for humans. Humans are omnivores by evolution where veganism is a choice, typically a first world choice too.

Nobody really cares how many vegans there are and unless I’m inviting you to dinner(I’m not doing that) I don’t need to know your a vegan or hear anything about it The big problem lies with the irrational need to force everyone to adopt a lifestyle that is completly abnormal for humans, there is no actual evidence that it can be sustained at a population level nor the health implications for the wider population particularly those who don’t supplement heavily. It’s no coincidence that few if any state registered dietitians in Ireland endorse a vegan lifestyle because of concerns about the nutritional content and deficiencies.

Be a vegan, absolutely I admire such conviction and belief

Don’t try and pretend it’s the only way forward or that it needs to be widely adopted.

Don’t fall for the lie that farming is the primary climate issue, burning fossil fuels far far outweighs it, and does nothing in return.

Don’t be a nuisance to society abusing people in and out of butcher shops, there was a video of some cowards abusing older ladies at a butcher shop in Ireland this year, younger people in masks abusing old ladies in the streets is disgusting.

gozunda

Capercaillie wrote: »

Silent Spring can be applied to this Country as well. With shifting baseline syndrome, successive generations don't even realize the loss in biodiversity....

I've read the book and whilst we have problems here - it bears little resemblence to the issues of arable and horticultural production to the US in the 1960s as detailed in Rachel's Carson's book. But the main point being - swapping everything to plant food as in arable and horticultural production (even if that were possible) Is certainly no panacea to the issues of cheap food production or a healthy environment.