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Veganism: Who is behind the Agenda?

musings

The media seem to be promoting the Vegan Agenda at every opportunity lately. Here is a graph that shows just how much interest has risen in Veganism.

Here is a link to the graph: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=vegan

Who is putting the money behind this agenda? I am wondering if it is Big Tech?

Interestingly, In June 2017, Amazon bought Whole Foods Market, the world's largest retailer of organic/vegan food.....Since July 2017 the search term has gone up in popularity by 50 to 100%!!!!

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El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah the Russians tried that. And then the Chineese tried that. And the end result was famine and the death of millions. But hey whose counting eh ...

We farm livestock here because grass is the most successful crop cover for our topography and climatic conditions.

Do we need to support farming? Yes we do. It feeds people. Sometimes it takes others to recognise the value of what we have when Ireland is recognised as the world leader in food security.

Good article here on food security. With Ireland ranked number one ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

OK. And even with the great grass and amazing product, it also doesn't work as a business without government handouts.

So do you see the issue with people who's business is propped up with government handouts as part of the long term business model, mocking a rival business who doesn't get those handouts?

gozunda

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.

Yeah the Russians tried that. And then the Chinese tried that. And the end result was famine and the death of millions. But hey whose counting eh ...

We farm livestock here because grass is the most successful crop cover for our topography and climatic conditions.

Do we need to support farming? Yes we do. It feeds people. Sometimes it takes others to recognise the value of what we have when Ireland is recognised as the world leader in food security.

Good article here on food security. With Ireland ranked number one ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.

It's funny it looked like I had asked questions and didn't try to read your mind. Notice the question marks.

By the way farming is far from the only subsidized industry in Ireland it just happens to be the most transparent.

[Deleted User]

Say my name wrote: »

Ah yea but sure that's all soil and carbon friendly.:pac:

Local spudman here was watering a field all last year with pump from the river. There was as much clay washed out on the road as was left in the field. They won't take a field now unless they've water access. This is our new climate and ecological friendly future now I suppose.

Very soon he'll be told to build water stores and he can only have winter extraction and severe rain events at that crack. It's half the reason veg cropping is very concentrated these days as a proper underground mains and reservoir set up is silly money. Those alu pipes are 100 euro a pop usually in 9m sections for over grounds. Not playing by the rules is loose water licence and big fines as needs to be metered and epa informed of meters location off the pump for random visits.
Though the land is getting rotten with disease.
Lads getting excited about veganism and only growing veg is putting food production in the hands of a few huge farming corporations as it's monopolly money.
Some land can take the abuse imo so long as it's not puddled into soup. This is an older guy we helped out this autumn as he had some ill health. 2'-15" of black silt over sand. He'd be as likely needing to irrigate his cereals to get them to harvest as grow a 20ton crop of spuds putting water on the type of ground.

gozunda

Christy42 wrote: »

You are simply dodging my argument at that stage.
I have repeat said that eating a balanced diet of both is better. However you continue to ignore this. I stated some people have managed to eat healthier as a vegan than they did as a meat eater. And you keep attacking a strawman of it not being the perfect diet.

I presume this is aimed at me? Incorrect. I've said nothing about one diet being 'better' or more or less 'perfect' than any other. I have linked to what the current guidelines about meat as part of healthy balanced diet are. Thats it really.

Christy42 wrote: »

If that the crutch that some people need to avoid processed food then I will applaud them as opposed to being offended by their existence. I said before most processed heavily salted food we eat is meat based. Not all but hey if you cut out meat it is a handy excuse to not eat any of that and feel pressured.

Tbh I am not interested in your specific ideas about diet. The issue which I've highlighted is the misinformation and propaganda used against animal farming and meat as part of a healthy balanced diet in particular. One point though I would strongly disagree that 'most' highly processed food is 'meat based'. In the main its largely cheap carbs fried or processed with added salt, artificial sugars and sweeteners and god know what additives.

Christy42 wrote: »

Honestly most that I have seen is "yeah I don't eat meat for environmental reasons" "what how dare you compare meat to nuclear waste or call it the worst thing in the world". I live in this world. Meat as the worst thing ever is not prevelant. I have met plenty of vegetarians for all sorts of reasons. The closest I have seen to the above is a few pictures of pigs or cows which made me hungry. There are plenty of lies such that vegans can't get protein or whatever. They can. They may have to work for it but there are plenty who are much stronger than me for all my meat eating and fair play to them.

Again not referring to some singular or throwaway comments - rather the ever present misinformation and bs repeated on a whole raft of pro plant food websites and elsewhere about farming whether that's water or land use. As for the old chestnut about vegans and protein - you may want to revisit that again. No evidence of it on boards eitherway. See: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110176733

Christy42 wrote: »

I made a glib comment on the ploughing and you ran with it. Fair enough I should not have said it about ploughing. It still leaves you ignoring the core issue of raising the amount of farm animals we currently have as being worse for the environment than if we moved a lot of that over to crops. You keep complaining but you have yet to actually come back with anything to counter it.

Glib? In reality you presented it as something in support of crop cultivation. It doesnt wash. As pointed out cultivation in general is indeed harmful to the environment and a significant cause of carbon emissions. And no I'm not comparing the two. Both can be extremly bad or good depending on the farming methods employed.

Again you ignore that it is not possible to move unsuitable land over to crops. By the singular reason that such land is unusable for arable production or similar. Interestingly that is one of the most often and seriously flawed pro vegan arguments out there. Agriculture should involve the best use of resources and where that means extensive rearing of livestock then that is a beneficial good. Plus do note we have less cattle in this country on the same land than we had in 1973. What we do have is a hell of a lot more people.

Christy42 wrote: »

Ignoring all the money being pumped into selling meat there is no great campaign for meat eating??? Sounds a little ridiculous. Some people feel strongly about veganism and are voicing their opinion. Some want to sell more vegetables. I see no issue with either.

Again not grasping the basic premise that what you describe is regular advertising. Nothing stopping Icantbelievevitsnotaburger or whoever making similar claims. Rather It is the very active and vocal promotion of misinformation against animal farming repeatedly pushed by the plant food industry and the more extreme elements of the vegan movement. The vegan anti farming billboards are just one example of this agenda. Do they tell us how good tofu is? Do they heck! They portray farmers as mass murders and heartless villains amongst other daft horse manure nonsense. Not a mention of lovely veggies or tofu! Funnily enough people may also feel strongly about being omnivores but I dont see them voicing their opinion and putting up billboards saying how terrible plant eaters are.

Christy42 wrote: »

I like that people are not hypocritical just their beliefs are? Much better.

Lol. Twisting there again. No matter but yes an idea or a statement can indeed be 'hypocritical." But you know that already.

Say my name

Waffletraktor wrote: »

If the fields in for veg it'll usually have a pass from a bed tiller/Baiselier, subsoiler, destoner,powerharrow to work it to a fine tilt and remove stones if it's that type of land.

Ah yea but sure that's all soil and carbon friendly.:pac:

Local spudman here was watering a field all last year with pump from the river. There was as much clay washed out on the road as was left in the field. They won't take a field now unless they've water access. This is our new climate and ecological friendly future now I suppose.

[Deleted User]

Say my name wrote: »

Ploughing a field does indeed contribute to global warming.

https://medium.com/datadriveninvestor/why-ploughing-is-such-a-bad-idea-62956c17967c

Water use in vegetables in Ireland is as much a factor as anywhere. Potato growers nowadays won't really take out land for sowing unless they've access to water bodies for irrigation.

If the fields in for veg it'll usually have a pass from a bed tiller/Baiselier, subsoiler, destoner,powerharrow to work it to a fine tilt and remove stones if it's that type of land.

thecomedian

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.

It’s suppose to keep the price down, that was one of the reasons for it.
The EU has strict standards on what is produced here.
All other parts of the world do not have these standards or regulations.
Ours isn’t perfect but it’s way ahead of everywhere else.

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

Why meat?
Because you happen to not like it?

I think sprouts should be made unaffordable, evil little green spheres.

Who said I don't like meat or eat? Don't try to read my mind. If you want to know something, you can ask.

The question is "why subsidise farming and not all other industries that aren't cost effective in Ireland?" There's food grown in other parts of the world. We import all kinds of products from all other parts of the world.

Food security is a national issue so government has to make sure food is produced her, so nationalise food production.

Christy42

_Brian wrote: »

Equally many people have eaten better as omnivores than as veggie or vegan.

Identifying with a particular diet does not make one healthy, they all have poor options that if chosen regularly will be detrimental to ones health.

Yes. This is what I have said. This is not a counter to anything I have said.

_Brian

Christy42 wrote: »

You are simply dodging my argument at that stage.

I have repeat said that eating a balanced diet of both is better. However you continue to ignore this. I stated some people have managed to eat healthier as a vegan than they did as a meat eater. And you keep attacking a strawman of it not being the perfect diet.

I made a glib comment on the ploughing and you ran with it. Fair enough I should not have said it about ploughing. It still leaves you ignoring the core issue of raising the amount of farm animals we currently have as being worse for the environment than if we moved a lot of that over to crops. You keep complaining but you have yet to actually come back with anything to counter it.

Ignoring all the money being pumped into selling meat there is no great campaign for meat eating??? Sounds a little ridiculous. Some people feel strongly about veganism and are voicing their opinion. Some want to sell more vegetables. I see no issue with either.

I like that people are not hypocritical just their beliefs are? Much better.

Equally many people have eaten better as omnivores than as veggie or vegan.

Identifying with a particular diet does not make one healthy, they all have poor options that if chosen regularly will be detrimental to ones health.

djmc

We really need to step our game and raise awareness of whats going on inside the farm gate whether through Facebook twitter or wherever. I have family members that are only one generation away from the farm that don't eat meat. I can see from comments on a recent article I wrote how little people in general know about farming. Questions like is it true that meat is filled with antibiotics and growth promoters and how often do we abuse cows by AI
While that might seem laughable to the average farmer a lot of people out there believe it and the more propaganda spreads.
The pig and poultry sectors have got an awful bad rep to the stage that even some farmers believe the lies that is being told.

Christy42

You are simply dodging my argument at that stage.

I have repeat said that eating a balanced diet of both is better. However you continue to ignore this. I stated some people have managed to eat healthier as a vegan than they did as a meat eater. And you keep attacking a strawman of it not being the perfect diet. If that the crutch that some people need to avoid processed food then I will applaud them as opposed to being offended by their existence. I said before most processed heavily salted food we eat is meat based. Not all but hey if you cut out meat it is a handy excuse to not eat any of that and feel pressured.

Honestly most that I have seen is "yeah I don't eat meat for environmental reasons" "what how dare you compare meat to nuclear waste or call it the worst thing in the world". I live in this world. Meat as the worst thing ever is not prevelant. I have met plenty of vegetarians for all sorts of reasons. The closest I have seen to the above is a few pictures of pigs or cows which made me hungry. There are plenty of lies such that vegans can't get protein or whatever. They can. They may have to work for it but there are plenty who are much stronger than me for all my meat eating and fair play to them.

I made a glib comment on the ploughing and you ran with it. Fair enough I should not have said it about ploughing. It still leaves you ignoring the core issue of raising the amount of farm animals we currently have as being worse for the environment than if we moved a lot of that over to crops. You keep complaining but you have yet to actually come back with anything to counter it.

Ignoring all the money being pumped into selling meat there is no great campaign for meat eating??? Sounds a little ridiculous. Some people feel strongly about veganism and are voicing their opinion. Some want to sell more vegetables. I see no issue with either.

I like that people are not hypocritical just their beliefs are? Much better.

gozunda

Christy42 wrote: »

I never stated a vegetarian diet is the healthiest? I said it is an easy way to help cut out processed foods. My diet is the healthiest. Who am I to give out? Many vegetarians get better diets than me as do meat eaters. Is m trying to avoid the statements on those weird sites but you are putting words in my mouth at times here.
Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? Not everyone. Not what is the ideal diet (cos no one eats that anyway).
No offense taken. I mean I am going with vegetarian arguments when I feel like they are not the best way to achieve their goals. However I do acknowledge that there are reasons behind it and accept their choice. As you and I have said a veggie diet with some chicken will be better but if someone gets healthier than their CURRENT diet then more power to them. It is certainly not a fix for everyone like some claim (though those pictures of pigs have led me to some nice bacon sandwiches)

I use the word agenda because it is the title. Yes companies are trying to make money off it with plenty of disinformation but the same can be said for meat (the recent mc ads trying to show off natural ingredients really annoyed me. Doesn't matter what they use after it is thrown in grease). I can't see it as an agenda any more than meat is being pushed by an agenda with their own disinformation.

I use hypocrite as ordinary vegetarians were referred by this term here because insects are equal to a cow apparently.Yes in some places it makes sense to cultivate cows due to a lack of farmland available. Is this true for every place used for cows? I am not just talking about Ireland as the Ireland does farming really well and many facts and figures are taken on a global scale.Edit: your link definitely outlines the climate effect of farming crops. It does not compare it with farming animals which is the core point here so I am unsure of the relevance.

Your core argument there appears to be that there is equal propaganda against meat and non meat diets.

Not so. Discounting actual advertising for products like McDs - Meat producers or even omnivores do not endlessly push absolute misinformation about plants or plant food diets. And yet day in and day out - this the crap being pushed about animal farming and that meat is little better than nuclear waste or wtte. Like US figures for water being used for animal farming here in an effort to claim animal agiculture is single handily using every drop of water in the country etc. And thats just one single example of the bs being endlessly repeated .

And that point that does not just relate to Ireland btw - worldwide there are vast areas of grassland which will not support the growing of crop. See the FAO article linked - Where it states that globally "Livestock use large areas of pastures where nothing else could be produced".

As to digressing about specific diets - your premise that. "Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? .

No - because eating meat or otherwise is not the main problem with western diets. Not even sure why you are picking 'meat' tbh or even whether that is processed meats or otherwise . It's true that eating highly processed high fat high salt and other unhealthy foodstuffs appears to be one of the main issues identified by nutritionists for the majority of people.

It remains that meat and dairy products are recommended as part of a healthy balanced diet by bodies such as the NHS

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/

Just to note I believe the other poster referred to the issue as being hypocritical and not that any veggies were hypocrites or otherwise. I believe there is a clear difference there tbh

As to the highlighted bit. The link was added to detail just some of the climate effect of farming crops which you seemed to be unaware of. There are also many more impacts of cultivation which makes livestock farming look like a picnic in comparison.

And that is the issue with much of these discussions is that there are those who know little or nothing about agriculture whether animal or arable either here or abroad but who endlessly repeat the same old mantras that meat is badddd and animal farming is the worst thing in the universe because they read it on a plant food website someplace.. What is evident that little or any of it stands up to scrutiny and the endless kitchen sink throwing is simply tiresome.

_Brian

Christy42 wrote: »

I never stated a vegetarian diet is the healthiest? I said it is an easy way to help cut out processed foods. My diet is the healthiest. Who am I to give out? Many vegetarians get better diets than me as do meat eaters. Is m trying to avoid the statements on those weird sites but you are putting words in my mouth at times here.

Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? Not everyone. Not what is the ideal diet (cos no one eats that anyway).

No offense taken. I mean I am going with vegetarian arguments when I feel like they are not the best way to achieve their goals. However I do acknowledge that there are reasons behind it and accept their choice. As you and I have said a veggie diet with some chicken will be better but if someone gets healthier than their CURRENT diet then more power to them. It is certainly not a fix for everyone like some claim (though those pictures of pigs have led me to some nice bacon sandwiches).

I use the word agenda because it is the title. Yes companies are trying to make money off it with plenty of disinformation but the same can be said for meat (the recent mc ads trying to show off natural ingredients really annoyed me. Doesn't matter what they use after it is thrown in grease). I can't see it as an agenda any more than meat is being pushed by an agenda with their own disinformation. I use hypocrite as ordinary vegetarians were referred by this term here because insects are equal to a cow apparently.

Yes in some places it makes sense to cultivate cows due to a lack of farmland available. Is this true for every place used for cows? I am not just talking about Ireland as the Ireland does farming really well and many facts and figures are taken on a global scale.

Edit: your link definitely outlines the climate effect of farming crops. It does not compare it with farming animals which is the core point here so I am unsure of the relevance.

Ironically in contradiction to what you open with processed foods for the v & v movement is seeing a massive surge in retail sales.

Much of the food aimed at these groups is heavily processed and in cases containing ingredients where their long term impact on humans is unknown.

Both vegetarian and omnivorous diets are easily made healthy by avoiding certain foods marketed to both.

Vegan diet is a very different thing.
It is near impossible to be vegan in Ireland an not rely on , processed foods, high supplementation or consuming out of season imported goods with shocking environmental footprints. This is often a case where the person is putting ethical issues before their own health, sometimes knowingly and sometimes through ignorance.

emaherx

Christy42 wrote: »

Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? Not everyone. Not what is the ideal diet (cos no one eats that anyway).

Simply put no and neither would most vegans and vegetarians. Simply cutting out meat would most likely be much more unhealthy, that's not to say one can't be healthy as a vegan or vegetarian but most people would need to replace the meat with something else.

Here's a crazy idea, if you want to cut out processed foods simply do that it doesn't take a genius to work out the difference between whole foods and processed foods whether vegan omnivore or otherwise.

Christy42

I never stated a vegetarian diet is the healthiest? I said it is an easy way to help cut out processed foods. My diet is the healthiest. Who am I to give out? Many vegetarians get better diets than me as do meat eaters. Is m trying to avoid the statements on those weird sites but you are putting words in my mouth at times here.

Simply put, do you agree that cutting out meat could lead to some people eating healthier than their current diet? Not everyone. Not what is the ideal diet (cos no one eats that anyway).

No offense taken. I mean I am going with vegetarian arguments when I feel like they are not the best way to achieve their goals. However I do acknowledge that there are reasons behind it and accept their choice. As you and I have said a veggie diet with some chicken will be better but if someone gets healthier than their CURRENT diet then more power to them. It is certainly not a fix for everyone like some claim (though those pictures of pigs have led me to some nice bacon sandwiches).

I use the word agenda because it is the title. Yes companies are trying to make money off it with plenty of disinformation but the same can be said for meat (the recent mc ads trying to show off natural ingredients really annoyed me. Doesn't matter what they use after it is thrown in grease). I can't see it as an agenda any more than meat is being pushed by an agenda with their own disinformation. I use hypocrite as ordinary vegetarians were referred by this term here because insects are equal to a cow apparently.

Yes in some places it makes sense to cultivate cows due to a lack of farmland available. Is this true for every place used for cows? I am not just talking about Ireland as the Ireland does farming really well and many facts and figures are taken on a global scale.

Edit: your link definitely outlines the climate effect of farming crops. It does not compare it with farming animals which is the core point here so I am unsure of the relevance.

gozunda

Christy42 wrote: »

Not in the numbers we are breeding them which is the point. Remember they also take up more farmland. And that the veggie numbers also include rainfall and the comparison is what we are after. You can probably get some places with enough rainfall to completely cover cattle production but certainly not all.I am sure processed vegan food is on the increase. Where did I claim otherwise???Right now it is an easier way to eat healthier. This is the claim and it isn't wrong. Seriously eat more veg and less processed food. If giving up meat helps someone do that then I will wish them the best of luck. Given the current state of the market it seems likely to helpThen stop trying to make other people fight for insects?
https://www.sciencealert.com/are-animals-as-smart-or-as-dumb-as-we-think-they-are. Cows seem smart enough (as well as tasty, let's be fair here). Not sure I would bet on a spider winning a test.I am a meat eater but I can also not shout that there is some Agenda or hypocrite at someone because they don't eat meat. It is an easy way to improve health and do something about the environment. Ploughing a field is not going to cause global warming and neither with a few spiders getting caught up in it. Throwing resources at cows can cause issues.

That's the thing - we have fewer cattle than we did in 1973 when Ireland joined the EU. Most of the vegan propaganda bandied about against animal farming is simply pure and utter bs.

And no animals dont "take up more farmland'. In this country livestock units per hectare are used to manage how many animals a given area can support. And as most of soils topography and climate does not suit the growing of crops - but are suitable for grass - then it makes sense to utilise livestock who can convert that grass into food whether that is dairy products or extensively reared cattle etc. From the FAO:

Animal food sources make a vital contribution to global nutrition and are an excellent source of macro- and micronutrients. Livestock products make up 18% of global calories, 34% of global protein consumption and provides essential micro-nutrients, such as vitamin B12, iron and calcium. Livestock use large areas of pastures where nothing else could be produced. Animals also add to agricultural production through manure production and drought power. Further, keeping livestock provides a secure source of income for over 500 million poor people in many in rural areas.

https://www.eea.europa.eu/signals/signals-2015/articles/soil-and-climate-change

The funny thing about much of the 'veggie numbers' is has been shown that they do not use the same metrics and exclude much of the artificial inputs, irrigation and fossil fuels required for their production.

Eating highly processed ****e is not healthier whether that is plant based or otherwise. The fact is that an omnivorous diet remains a recommended diet by health bodies such as the NHS and not the usual whack nutjobs we have screaming otherwise.

To the bolded bit. Incorrect. Ploughing including all forms of cultivation is known to cause a significant release of carbon into the atmosphere. Grassland on the other hand actively sequesteres carbon. And no it's not just 'spiders'. It has been estimated that some 7.3 billion animals and organisms are killed as a result of soil cultivation and harvesting every year.

According to the European Environmental Agency one of the best ways to sequester carbon is to utilise existing grasslands.

Climate change mitigation.
The most carbon-rich soils are peatlands, mostly found in northern Europe, the UK and Ireland. Grassland soils also store a lot of carbon per hectare...The fastest way to increase organic carbon in farmed soil is to convert arable land to grassland...

On farmland, ploughing the soil is known to accelerate decomposition and mineralisation of organic matter. In order to keep carbon and nutrients in the soil, researchers suggest reducing tillage

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

And that is the problem with a lot of the plant food industry spiel that is wrong. Is it being promoted? - yes it is- go take a look at who is funding a whole bunch of the pro plant food hype in the slick hollywood type documentaries being endlessly touted here and elsewhere.

As for the idea (your words) that "that there is some Agenda or hypocrite at someone because they don't eat meat".

Thats a very odd statement and doesn't match with anything here tbh. The multi billion dollar plant food industry and a person eating a primarily plant food diet are not the one and same by any stretch of the imagination. That there is a huge amount of misinformation about agriculture being constantly regurgitated is without doubt. No offence meant but many of your own statements are identical to those found on many of prosletysing type vegan websites, videos and documentaties promoting plant food diets. And as pointed out they dont stand up to scrutiny.

emaherx

Christy42 wrote: »

Not in the numbers we are breeding them which is the point. Remember they also take up more farmland. And that the veggie numbers also include rainfall and the comparison is what we are after. You can probably get some places with enough rainfall to completely cover cattle production but certainly not all.

I am sure processed vegan food is on the increase. Where did I claim otherwise???Right now it is an easier way to eat healthier. This is the claim and it isn't wrong. Seriously eat more veg and less processed food. If giving up meat helps someone do that then I will wish them the best of luck. Given the current state of the market it seems likely to help.

Then stop trying to make other people fight for insects?
https://www.sciencealert.com/are-animals-as-smart-or-as-dumb-as-we-think-they-are. Cows seem smart enough (as well as tasty, let's be fair here). Not sure I would bet on a spider winning a test.

I am a meat eater but I can also not shout that there is some Agenda or hypocrite at someone because they don't eat meat. It is an easy way to improve health and do something about the environment. Ploughing a field is not going to cause global warming and neither with a few spiders getting caught up in it. Throwing resources at cows can cause issues.

Point is water is not an issue in this country for either I'm not anti plants. Yes they take up more farmland but they share this farm land with nature many species of butterfly would disappear without our pasture land and Meadows. Sure the more intensive cattle farms can be an issue but 50% of Irish farms have less than 10 cows. But the more extensive a farm is the greater the area of land per kg of produce that will be used however it will be more friendly to the native wildlife.

If the world ever went completely vegan the same people who live off processed foods now will do so as a vegan supply and demand, vegan products make up a small percentage of the overall market for a fairly obvious reason. Vegans often get excited over new vegan versions of junk foods being available as it is something they miss. Not sure about spiders but crickets are meant to be fairly nutritious.

I've never tried to get anyone to save the insects, although over all it probably is an area of agriculture that needs to improve. Just pointed out the obvious hypocrisy.Not sure about spiders but crickets are meant to be fairly nutritious. I wish anyone the best who wants to be vegan for their own reasons but there is a massive movement of misinformation being spread about animal agriculture I'd call that an agenda. In this thread and many others there are regular vegan posters who spread complete nonsense.

Not calling anyone a hypocrite for not eating meat, what's hypocritical is claiming their food is cruelty free.

Say my name

Ploughing a field does indeed contribute to global warming.

https://medium.com/datadriveninvestor/why-ploughing-is-such-a-bad-idea-62956c17967c

Water use in vegetables in Ireland is as much a factor as anywhere. Potato growers nowadays won't really take out land for sowing unless they've access to water bodies for irrigation.

einn32

Christy42 wrote: »

Using California as an example is just intentionally picking and choosing to skew the data. California probably shouldn't be doing much growing. Hey veganism isn't perfect. Compare like with like, what are figured like for producing veggies in Ireland vs meat?

Is processed food more available for meat eaters or vegans. That was my only claim. Again veganism or veggie is not perfect here either. Single counterexamples don't negate the trend. I am sure the new fast food veggie burger I have seen advertised is absolute muck. But it is way easier to find a vast selection of processed meat.

You can go onto a fight for the insects but it seems pretty strawman to assume the vegans are.

They should promote it. It's helping some agri sectors. It might provide work for me! I don't dislike vegans. It's a small market that benefits some agri sectors. Ireland agriculture doesn't really benefit from veganism in any great way I assume?

I was just wondering what vegans think about the destruction of animals for crop production that's all. The fact that most crop farms also slaughter animals. The message is life isn't fair and just get on with it I guess.

Christy42

emaherx wrote: »

It's a exactly the way data is skewed against cattle which was my point. Claims of requiring 20,000 liters to produce 1 kg of beef in Ireland are complete BS because it rains the real figure counting what a cow consumes 150-200 liters of water. Cattle can graze land and live side by side with nature but a plough destroys everything in it's path. And funny enough the more extensively farmed land is with cattle it increases the claimed land use and water use by the unfair calculations used.

Processed vegan food is on the increase and will only increase more as that market expands.

I don't need to put up a fight for the insects as I'm an omnivore and accept animals die for my food but I'm not hypocritical about it.

Not in the numbers we are breeding them which is the point. Remember they also take up more farmland. And that the veggie numbers also include rainfall and the comparison is what we are after. You can probably get some places with enough rainfall to completely cover cattle production but certainly not all.

I am sure processed vegan food is on the increase. Where did I claim otherwise???Right now it is an easier way to eat healthier. This is the claim and it isn't wrong. Seriously eat more veg and less processed food. If giving up meat helps someone do that then I will wish them the best of luck. Given the current state of the market it seems likely to help.

Then stop trying to make other people fight for insects?
https://www.sciencealert.com/are-animals-as-smart-or-as-dumb-as-we-think-they-are. Cows seem smart enough (as well as tasty, let's be fair here). Not sure I would bet on a spider winning a test.

I am a meat eater but I can also not shout that there is some Agenda or hypocrite at someone because they don't eat meat. It is an easy way to improve health and do something about the environment. Ploughing a field is not going to cause global warming and neither with a few spiders getting caught up in it. Throwing resources at cows can cause issues.

emaherx

Christy42 wrote: »

Using California as an example is just intentionally picking and choosing to skew the data. California probably shouldn't be doing much growing. Hey veganism isn't perfect. Compare like with like, what are figured like for producing veggies in Ireland vs meat?

Is processed food more available for meat eaters or vegans. That was my only claim. Again veganism or veggie is not perfect here either. Single counterexamples don't negate the trend. I am sure the new fast food veggie burger I have seen advertised is absolute muck. But it is way easier to find a vast selection of processed meat.

You can go onto a fight for the insects but it seems pretty strawman to assume the vegans are.

It's a exactly the way data is skewed against cattle which was my point. Claims of requiring 20,000 liters to produce 1 kg of beef in Ireland are complete BS because it rains the real figure counting what a cow consumes is 150-200 liters of water. Cattle can graze land and live side by side with nature but a plough destroys everything in it's path. And funny enough the more extensively farmed land is with cattle it increases the claimed land use and water use by the unfair calculations used.

Processed vegan food is on the increase and will only increase more as that market expands.

I don't need to put up a fight for the insects as I'm an omnivore and accept animals die for my food but I'm not hypocritical about it.

Christy42

emaherx wrote: »

Water claims on animal production are wildly overstated as it includes all water which happens to fall in a field with livestock. For example there is much more water required to make the likes of almond milk in California than Irish dairy milk or a kilo of Irish Beef.

Organic farms use pesticides, they happen to be organic in nature but often more damaging to the environment. Insects are just a sentient as cows so it is a valid argument.

Plenty of processed vegan foods available now, take a beef burger for example which is minced beef some seasoning and egg compare that to the ingredients of a beyond burger with 18 ingredients some specially invented in a lab to make plants taste bloody.

Using California as an example is just intentionally picking and choosing to skew the data. California probably shouldn't be doing much growing. Hey veganism isn't perfect. Compare like with like, what are figured like for producing veggies in Ireland vs meat?

Is processed food more available for meat eaters or vegans. That was my only claim. Again veganism or veggie is not perfect here either. Single counterexamples don't negate the trend. I am sure the new fast food veggie burger I have seen advertised is absolute muck. But it is way easier to find a vast selection of processed meat.

You can go onto a fight for the insects but it seems pretty strawman to assume the vegans are.

emaherx

Christy42 wrote: »

Plants don't require as much room and resources in terms of feed and water etc. No insects tend not to make the cut though you could go organic (this route is terrible for the environment as you need to grow more again). I suspect you are aware they don't mind killing fungi earlier since they are eating crops so no idea why that was put in.

The rest of your post is nonsense for the sake of not liking vegans??

To the person talking about disease. Definitely the prosessed foods. However most of them tend to meat/dairy. So if you cut out meat/dairy you end up with less prosessed food as it simply cuts out the option.

Certainly I agree that good meat isn't bad for you if you don't have ridiculous amounts. I also strongly suspect a lot of vegetarian diets would be better with a bit of chicken now and then. However, while their diet is not perfect, I am sure I have a bit of a glass house in that regard.

Water claims on animal production are wildly overstated as it includes all water which happens to fall in a field with livestock. For example there is much more water required to make the likes of almond milk in California than Irish dairy milk or a kilo of Irish Beef.

Organic farms use pesticides, they happen to be organic in nature but often more damaging to the environment. Insects are just a sentient as cows so it is a valid argument.

Plenty of processed vegan foods available now, take a beef burger for example which is minced beef some seasoning and egg compare that to the ingredients of a beyond burger with 18 ingredients some specially invented in a lab to make plants taste bloody.

Christy42

einn32 wrote: »

What I don't get is how crop, vegetable and fruit farming is any better than the meat or milk farming. The chemical fertiliser and pesticide use is huge. Wiping out large amounts of insects, weeds and fungi for example throughout the growing season. Is this an issue for vegans? I remember knocking canola in oz and the spray bar on the swather dosing the stubble with round up! Then sheep would be in around the stubble of oat crops picking up the spilt grain. I don't think a vegan is allowed to eat that oat crop as it came into contact with an animal destined for slaughter? We used to have kangaroos and emu birds go through the header by accident. Surely they shouldn't touch that canola oil?

Plants don't require as much room and resources in terms of feed and water etc. No insects tend not to make the cut though you could go organic (this route is terrible for the environment as you need to grow more again). I suspect you are aware they don't mind killing fungi earlier since they are eating crops so no idea why that was put in.

The rest of your post is nonsense for the sake of not liking vegans??

To the person talking about disease. Definitely the prosessed foods. However most of them tend to meat/dairy. So if you cut out meat/dairy you end up with less prosessed food as it simply cuts out the option.

Certainly I agree that good meat isn't bad for you if you don't have ridiculous amounts. I also strongly suspect a lot of vegetarian diets would be better with a bit of chicken now and then. However, while their diet is not perfect, I am sure I have a bit of a glass house in that regard.

emaherx

djmc wrote: »

Sorry it was late and I was tired, lol:o

I thought it was funny

djmc

emaherx wrote: »

Thanks, I needed a farmers point of view!

I was referring to a program in a warmer climate using older breeds in central Europe where some areas are loosing natural grassland due to small farmers simply giving up and leaving the landscape with no natural grazing animals.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/return-of-the-aurochs

Sorry it was late and I was tired, lol:o

Effects

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

If 2.4 million years of human evolution were compressed into the 24 hours of a clock:

*we've been eating meat for 24 hours
*we've been eating wheat for 6 minutes
*we've been eating ultra-processed food for 4 seconds

What's more likely to be a cause of a modern disease?

5G phone masts I'd say.

gozunda

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah I think that would be better. I think we should pay the price things actually cost to be viable. So if that means meat goes up and some people can't afford it, grand. We don't subsidise every business to make sure everyone can afford the product. If meat is expensive and a luxury item or something people have once a week then that's OK. People would just eat other things they can afford. So yeah, I'd agree with you there.

You really dont have clue eh? It wouldn't just be your personal bete noir "meat" which would rise in price but all agricultural produce. Or is it that you just choose to support veganism which seems to rely on cheap imports of food from other countries many of which have few if any ethical or environmental standards or highly processeed ****e. It would be good to at least try to be seen to be impartial instead of constantly and only bashing animal agriculture because some do not like 'meat' and even those delighted for producers to go to the wall because that seems to suit a tiny minorities lifestyle choice.