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Irish Traveller Culture

  • 12-12-2009 11:53am
    #1
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭


    Would you consider them as an ethnic group? I am confused by how many different languages they have. Gammon, Shelta and Cant. What are the differences, and which is the main one?


«13

Comments

  • #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    WindSock wrote: »
    Would you consider them as an ethnic group? I am confused by how many different languages they have. Gammon, Shelta and Cant. What are the differences, and which is the main one?

    Well, I suppose they are an ethnic group, aren't they? They're a group of people who have a common and distinctive culture and heritage, so in that respect I suppose they are. It really depends on how you'd define an ethnic group; I've always thought that the definition--this is the definition I learned for LC geography a few years ago--was a group of people who share a particular and distinctive culture, or heritage, or language, or religion, etc.

    As for the second part of the question, I honestly don't know. It's bad for me to admit that I've never heard of any of their languages.


  • #3
    Rozabeez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,878 ✭✭✭Rozabeez


    I know they consider themselves as an ethnic group, but to discuss it we'd have to clear up that we view them as an "other" or a "them" instead of simply as Irish people as it's not a class difference thing, it's an ethnicity thing. I've a good article on it somewhere...probably under my bed :D


  • #4
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Absolutely not a different group.
    The Irish state confirms they are not a different ethnic group so that's what we go by


  • #5
    Rozabeez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,878 ✭✭✭Rozabeez


    mikemac wrote: »
    Absolutely not a different group.
    The Irish state confirms they are not a different ethnic group so that's what we go by

    I disagree with this because it depends how people view themselves and what travellers as a group consider themselves to be, not just a label (or lack of) thrown around by the State.


  • #6
    holly1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,700 ✭✭✭✭holly1


    WindSock wrote: »
    Would you consider them as an ethnic group? I am confused by how many different languages they have. Gammon, Shelta and Cant. What are the differences, and which is the main one?

    I think the language is all the same,it's just got different titles for different parts of the country and groups,it,s called Gammon here in my part of Kildare.
    This is just my opinion.


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  • #7
    Rozabeez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,878 ✭✭✭Rozabeez


    We need to remember this isn't a debate, it's a discussion, there's not right or wrong opinion :)


  • #8
    holly1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,700 ✭✭✭✭holly1


    Rozabeez wrote: »
    We need to remember this isn't a debate, it's a discussion, there's not right or wrong opinion :)

    Sorry was that directed at me :confused::).


  • #9
    chughes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭chughes


    I wouldn't consider Travellers to be a different ethnic group. They are Irish people who have chosen a type of lifestyle for themselves.

    Some people may choose to consider Travellers to be a different ethnic group in order to leverage funding from central government or halting sites from county councils but the bottom line is that they are no different to the rest of the Irish race and shouldn't be treated any differently.


  • #10
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    I would consider them to be an ethnic group too. They certainly have a different culture to the rest of Ireland. The thing is, I really don't know much about it. I don't think many Irish people do.
    I know the Irish Traveller Movement have been trying to appeal to get recognition, but the Irish Governemnt hasn't given any solid reasons why it isn't granting them the status.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0616/1224248899709.html
    He said that to recognise Travellers as an ethnic group “is not to state that Travellers are a distinct race from the rest of the Irish population” but that it would have implications for the recognition and respect for Travellers’ cultural identity “and the obligation to ensure that respect is reflected in policy decisions by Government and public bodies


  • #11
    Cannibal Ox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Cannibal Ox


    mikemac wrote:
    The Irish state confirms they are not a different ethnic group so that's what we go by
    They're a seperate ethnic/cultural group in the census. (The question is, What is your ethnic or cultural background? Irish, Irish Traveller, Any other white background.). I think the intention is probably to label them a cultural grouping though.

    I don't think an ethnic group needs state recognition to claim a distinct ethnicity, but I would say it needs to be justified through a distinct history and cultural practices, which, from the little I know, I think travelers can claim. I'd also say there's a certain utility in travelers being an ethnic grouping in Ireland in terms of legislation.


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  • #12
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Of course they are a separate ethnic group.
    mikemac wrote: »
    Absolutely not a different group.
    The Irish state confirms they are not a different ethnic group so that's what we go by

    The Irish state doesn't define who is and who isn't an ethnic group. Give me your definition of an ethnic group, and then we'll see if they are or aren't.


  • #13
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The Irish state doesn't define who is and who isn't an ethnic group.

    Ok, maybe I shouldn't said define but what I meant to say was the Irish state will not recognize them as a different group.

    And in that newspaper link, the Irish Traveller Movement are demanding to " to grant Travellers the status of an ethnic group"
    So that is what they are looking for and the Irish state won't do it

    I go along with the government opinion here if that's what's been decided


  • #14
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    mikemac wrote: »
    Ok, maybe I shouldn't said define but what I meant to say was the Irish state will not recognize them as a different group.

    So you agree that they are indeed an ethnic group?
    mikemac wrote: »
    And in that newspaper link, the Irish Traveller Movement are demanding to " to grant Travellers the status of an ethnic group"

    Yes, and rightfully so. They wish to be declared as a separate ethnic group, and meet all the requirements to do so.
    mikemac wrote: »
    I go along with the government opinion here if that's what's been decided

    So what you're saying is that, although they are indeed an ethnic group - you're going along with something which is subjective.


  • #15
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Looks like it was traveller focus week last week too. Didn't hear anything about it.


  • #16
    eleanoroosevelt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭eleanoroosevelt


    I believe a lot of the problems travellers face today stems from the lack of recognition they receive in irish society as a separate ethnic group.
    They are looked on as a nuisance and some people just refer to them as "the knackers" or "the tinkers"
    This level of degradation surely doesn't do anything for their self-esteem and doesn't encourage them to educate themselves or their children and so they get caught in a vicious circle.
    Irish society doesn't give them a place within its society. If from childhood you're led to believe you're worthless and a leech on society it's not surprising you're lack of belief in your ability cripples you. Travellers are stereotyped and they fulfill this stereotype because they're told they can be nothing else.
    We need to encourage travellers to preserve their culture and their language- I've heard travellers speak cant and they've done better job at preserving cant than we've done at preserving irish!
    I feel they should be given status as a sepatate ethnic group and be made proud of their culture. We need to give them a place in todays society, only then will the stereotypical anti-social behaviour stop.


  • #17
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    Bonk


  • #18
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    Starting with the original question, [Would you consider them as an ethnic group? ]
    I can only comment from what I have so far seen & learnt from within Ireland in connection to the Pavee/Traveller community at large, I do think they are a totally separate but indigenous group within Ireland mostly born & bred here for as many generations as any Irish could ever claim for themselves , Not only that but what the Traveller community have is a common language [A very interesting topic on its own] a common religion & shared history, not forgetting traditions & cultural practices all of this stems from many generations living in a world that is mostly separate from the main stream of Irish life
    A fact remains that it is believed [Not proven] that the Travellers are a old mixture of original Travelling families plus a few that were forced off the land or who took to the roads during the periods of famine .The truth is the Irish Travellers heritage is as old & genuine as any could be , they have produced much needed goods & services through generations, sports men & musicians, dancers not forgetting traditional food .


    During the autumn period of 2008 a ongoing debate was underway in parts of the Traveller community regarding the ethnic minority debate & here’s the very basic fundamentals that came up.


    Some were in favour while others were not in favour much of it was in connection with Irelands own part of obligations regarding the signed up principles of the UN convention for all forms of racial discrimination ,However because the Travellers are Irish no protection under that system would cover them. Many Pavee are not interested by having any more labels applied to them ,particularly if it could make them separate from being termed Irish as that is the native/indigenous roots of the community.

    By comparison in England the Irish Travellers are classed as a ethnic minority ,most probably because it is not the true country of origin for them, .Scottish travellers & English Romany’s face similar issues within the homeland communities & on a political scale within Great Britain.
    Ireland has a lot of problems & many new ones with the way the world has changed in the last few months, From where I am standing the Pavee/Travellers are mostly ignored or looked down on by society in general, any bad news that can be linked to them & it is mentioned ,in many ways its like what’s happened to many minorities or immigrants over generations in most developed countries, true no smoke without fire, but drive along the roads ,the litter ,dumped cars ,household goods etc its not all from the Pavee ,the prisons are full to bursting ,but not with the Pavee. Sure some commit crimes & get away with it ,just like members of mainstream do .
    I notice bookshop shelves heaving with every Irish topic & fragment of history except for finding a book on the Travellers, in Sports headlines on reaching any achievement the Irish media is shouting aloud along with the public, but little if any mention is made about that star is from the Traveller community.
    I think people come in all types ,no matter what colour, religeon,age ,gender or social background etc some people are genuinely good while a minority are bad , the bad is what most tend to remember.
    I am not sure that society is right to try assimilating all people particularly ones who have lived by slight adaptations in the same ways for generations, legislation has been used to try forcing people off the roads , new sites are few ,many times officialdom would like everyone to be pigeon holed in shoebox lifestyles .


  • #19
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    They are not a different ethnic group, they are a different ethical group. Being outside of normal social boundaries by economical choice is not an ethnicity.

    They choose (largely) a pariah's lifestyle, and are effectively outside the auspices of the law because we have people excusing their anti-social, anti-establishment behaviour by giving them an ethnic badge.

    If thieving, dumping, imtimidation and scumbaggery are a culture, then we must redefine Art, Philosophy, Respect and Humanity.

    Way to go to paint everyone with the same brush.


  • #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Way to go to paint everyone with the same brush.

    nipplenuts received a warning for his post.

    I don't want anybody to reply or respond to the points which nipplenuts made, nor do I want anybody to respond to what I've quoted. If, from this point on, somebody does, they'll be infracted. Thanks.


  • #21
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Iolar wrote: »
    You may not agree with his opinion but is that not stiffling discussion?

    No. I don't want people responding to certain points he raised in his post.

    Also, please don't derail the thread further by questioning moderation again.


  • #23
    The Chessplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭The Chessplayer


    Rozabeez wrote: »
    I disagree with this because it depends how people view themselves and what travellers as a group consider themselves to be, not just a label (or lack of) thrown around by the State.

    No, this is codswallop. It's possible for a grouping of people to have an inaccurate perception of themselves. If all the inhabitants of Blarney proclaimed themselves to be an ethnic group apart, should this be accepted because that is how they perceive themselves? No, of course not. What a load of absolute cobblers!

    Also, culture and ethnicity should not be confused.


  • #24
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    The Chessplayer wrote: »
    Also, culture and ethnicity should not be confused.
    Are you suggesting there is no association?


  • #25
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The Chessplayer wrote: »
    Also, culture and ethnicity should not be confused.

    Let's have your definition for culture and ethnicity and we'll see then. Culture plays a role in ethnicity.


  • #26
    The Chessplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭The Chessplayer


    efla wrote: »
    Are you suggesting there is no association?

    No, but that culture, in the context of this thread, is an indicator of ethnicity.


  • #27
    Rozabeez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,878 ✭✭✭Rozabeez


    The Chessplayer wrote: »
    No, this is codswallop. It's possible for a grouping of people to have an inaccurate perception of themselves. If all the inhabitants of Blarney proclaimed themselves to be an ethnic group apart, should this be accepted because that is how they perceive themselves? No, of course not. What a load of absolute cobblers!

    Also, culture and ethnicity should not be confused.

    That depends. Hypothetically speaking, what would the people of Blarney be basing their 'difference' on? Would it be a very long history of different culture to other Irish people?


  • #28
    The Chessplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭The Chessplayer


    Rozabeez wrote: »
    That depends. Hypothetically speaking, what would the people of Blarney be basing their 'difference' on? Would it be a very long history of different culture to other Irish people?

    It's remarkable that people would disect notions of ethnicity in such a meaningless way. The people of Donegal have a "very long history of different culture" to those of Cork; that doesn't mean it is necessary to recognise them as a specific ethnic strain. Travellers are more like a 33rd county. Perhaps surnames would be a good measure of separate ethnicity. Travellers share surnames commonly found in every Irish county.


  • #29
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The Chessplayer wrote: »
    It's remarkable that people would disect notions of ethnicity in such a meaningless way. The people of Donegal have a "very long history of different culture" to those of Cork; that doesn't mean it is necessary to recognise them as a specific ethnic strain. Travellers are more like a 33rd county. Perhaps surnames would be a good measure of separate ethnicity. Travellers share surnames commonly found in every Irish county.

    That's a very narrow view on the situation.

    Travellers live different, speak differently, look differently, have a different history, take part in different sports (most boxing), have their own language, their own stories that they tell their children. They haven't been ethnically the same as us since the famine.

    The people in Cork and Donegal have alot more in common than we do with the travelling community.


  • #30
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    The modern usage definition of the Oxford English Dictionary is:

    a[djective]
    ...
    1.a. Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.
    b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by racial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity. Also attrib.
    n[oun]
    ...
    2 A member of an ethnic group or minority. orig. U.S.
    —Oxford English Dictionary "ethnic, a. and n."[23]

    So yes, they most definitely are an ethnic group under point 1.a above.

    Put it this way - if a Traveller family or a family from Blarney was to move into a housing estate, would the reaction be the same?


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  • #31
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    I think this is not a million miles away from other situations, the aboriginals of Australia & the native Americans of the USA both peoples are basically indigenous minority populations living as many groups of ethnics do, except by birthright . So the Travellers/Pavee are in a similar position in that they to are as undeniably native Irish but also a minority .

    Next is the Traveller language ,this is shared not only in Ireland but at any settlement on the globe of the Pavee, take Great Britain the USA & Australia in all three destinations are embedded populations of Irish people, some of them since the famine years while others are more recent ,these people tend to describe themselves as Irish American/Australian etc the same in parallel can be seen of the Pavee they to have emigrated during similar times to the same countries & in each destination where they live ,they are living as Irish Travellers clinging to the same customs & culture as the ones in Ireland have .
    So even down through the passage of time ,decade by decade the Irish living abroad or at home in Ireland are still living as two types of people settled & Traveller.

    If a person today was to purchase a trailer & travell the roads ,that person would not be a true Traveller like the Pavee are, No matter what county the settled population have mostly attempted to remain settled but the Pavee were & are still mostly nomadic people. Close blood marriages are a common enough factor of the Pavee along with name changes little of that exists in the settled community.

    In the mid 1500s Queen Elizabeth 1st introduced some of what are commonly called the anti Gyps laws these were also applied in Ireland with the penalty for being a Gypsy or Traveller to be deportation to the colonies .Today in most civilised countries its wrong or /& illegal to call Black people the N word or with Asians etc but in Ireland shops ,pubs & clubs do put out notices saying no Travellers I doubt it would ever be tolerated to do the same for the settled mainstream community. So both are Irish but remain separate now as they have been in the past.


  • #32
    mikehn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 617 ✭✭✭mikehn


    I have been reading the previous posts with some interest and wonder have the posters any ongoing contact with the travelling community in general.
    I am almost 60 and for most of that time have watched the evolution of the travelling community in my immediate area.I have know many of the old stock, sadly most of whom have now passed away, they were people of immense dignity and honour.
    I have watched the present generation evolve into what I think of as commercial travellers "excuse pun" they are carving out an unpleasant niche with a public perception of no regard for the law and general social niceties.
    In my area there are approximatly 30 traveller families, only five of these would I regard as good neighbours as they do not let their lifestyle intrude on their community. The travelling lifestyle is dead in this day and age as travelling involves illegal encampments with great cost to the community involved.
    The present lifestyle does not warrant recognition as an ethnic minority.
    Before any request for ethnic staus be tabled I believe that the present day travellers need to examine their present culture as they badly need to reinvent themselves in the public perception.
    I write as somebody who has contact with the travelling community for most of my life, I have gone from absolute acceptance of the local travelling people to regarding the present generation with a jaundiced eye. these are my personal views and if anybody want to villify my comments so be it.
    So would I vote for ethnic status No I would not.


  • #33
    The Chessplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭The Chessplayer


    FairFilly wrote: »
    I think this is not a million miles away from other situations, the aboriginals of Australia & the native Americans of the USA both peoples are basically indigenous minority populations living as many groups of ethnics do, except by birthright . So the Travellers/Pavee are in a similar position in that they to are as undeniably native Irish but also a minority .

    I see your point but I honestly think it's madness to mention travellers in the same paragraph as Aborigines and Indigenous Americans. You're talking about races that were almost wiped out through a policy of mega ethnic-cleansing that would leave even Slobodan Milosevic in the ha-penny place.

    Traveller-perceived discrimination involved the policy of "settling" them.


  • #34
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    Yes you are correct about the big difference between the Australia/USA situation I mentioned ,my point being only that a comparison of all these sets of people are natives in a homeland that for various reasons has forcibly effected traditional lifestyles & culture. They are all populations of minority indigenous people, that have been constantly legislated against for generations yet still try to retain some parts of historical culture that has been taken away little by little


  • #35
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    True figures for how many Pavee have been displaced by anti Gypsy laws are not as yet available ,having said that these laws were a form of ethnic-cleansing, since that time I know that further anti Gypsy laws were introduced making what was a way of traditional life for that section basically impossible to live within the law.. Perhaps not carried out in a blatant manner but a similar result of eradicating a way of life. Today some comparisons & ongoing projects are being carried-out between these various Gypsy/Traveller groups simply because of a few common links .

    Hitler & Nazi Germany tried to eradicate many Gypsy people & had its own project that put them in concentration camps ,did experiments etc .the estimated death figures for that are 250,000-500,000
    Great Britain added to its anti Gypsy laws with the removal & transportation of children [Tinker clearances] 1888-1952 authorities swooped randomly on any Gypsy/Traveller sites & forcibly removed children between 7-13 years of age ,they were then transported to parts of the Empire never to return.

    During this last year the Italian government had started a program of fingerprinting its Gypsy population .
    All the present EU countries have at some point in history had anti Gypsy laws ranging from corporal punishment, deportation, hanging to state genocide .
    The CJPOA of GB is seen & interpreted by many as a modern way of ethnic cleansing with the criminalisation of any nomadic ways of life .

    Close bonds between the various types of people now grow stronger & with the help of internet technology quick & in-depth communication, facts, figures & comparisons can be analysed. Here follows a few old pieces of Irish information from July 1986, Paper no. 131. The ESRI .onwards.
    Irish Travellers are still seen and treated as a 'lower caste' in society. . ."
    According to his research findings there has been a substantial deterioration in attitudes towards Travellers since 1972-3, leading him to conclude that
    "Irish people's prejudice against Travellers is one of caste-like apartheid."

    Kenny in her investigation into the interaction between Traveller ethnic identity and schooling concludes that
    "dominant sedentary society and its institutions remain the instigators and maintainers of institutional and interpersonal racism and exclusion, which has pressured Travellers over a long time-span into distorted performances"
    (Kenny, 1997).
    Quite clearly, a racial-isation process inferring the inferiority of Travellers is the outcome of media and political discourse.

    Traveller tradition not a divine right."
    Brendan O'Connor applauds Councillor Ann Devitt for suggesting that Traveller culture is not sacrosanct, and that the time has come for them to change their way of life. (Sunday Independent June 15 1997)

    The sooner the shotguns are at the ready and these travelling people are put out of our
    county the better.
    They are not our people, they aren't natives." Remarks of a Fianna Fail Councillor at a Waterford County Council meeting. (Sunday Independent, 14 April 1996)

    This year 2009
    Jun 16, In Northern Ireland racist thugs armed with bricks and bottles forced more than 100 Romanian Gypsies from their Belfast homes in a wave of attacks that sent them fleeing to the safety of a nearby church
    Jun 23, Northern Ireland’s government said more than 100 Romanian Gypsies who suffered racist attacks and intimidation in Belfast are being flown back home .
    In Bucharest this year, Madonna made a statement live on stage in defence of the Romany peoples

    The Irish census for 2002 recorded over 4,000 Traveller families that is about 23,681 individual Traveller people .
    63% of them were under 25 years of age
    33% of adults were over 65 years of age, Big debate is ongoing within GB Gypsy/Traveller communities regarding the next census as it will have provision for the first time ever for recording/registering information specifically about Gypsy/Traveller people.
    In simple terms no matter what time period or what country ,Gypsy/Traveller people have been used for a perfect scapegoat for any particular event or crisis ,they provide authorities, local populations & the media with a focus point .


  • #36
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    FairFilly, do you think that there is a lot of negativity directed toward travellers in Ireland, because of negative experiences of them?

    I am not saying any group is right over the other, I don't know many travellers, in fact I don't know any all too well. Therefore I don't know much about traveller culture or traveller voices. I am sure every traveller has had a bad experience with a member from the settled community, but it is also true that many settled people in Ireland mostly have only negative experiences with Travellers.
    I think most settled people don't wish for travellers to be living in the extreme poverty or to be treated as they are. How do you think we can best understand their culture and reduce our negative experiences of each other?


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  • #37
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    WindSock wrote: »
    I think most settled people don't wish for travellers to be living in the extreme poverty or to be treated as they are. How do you think we can best understand their culture and reduce our negative experiences of each other?

    There was a traveller woman on one of our adult ed B.A's a few years back who did some research on traveller women (early marriage, expected duties in the home, violence). I never met her myself, but remember reading her thesis (I may be remembering a conversation also...) where she mentioned that it would be impossible for anyone outside the travelling community to reliably question them about anything.

    Most of what I have come across is either historical or secondary, so I suppose more of the above would be a useful start (which isn't likely anytime soon considering recent cuts; if the combat poverty agency cant get any....)


  • #38
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,773 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I agree with Windsock's points and my experience of Travellers would be much the same as his/hers. If Travellers were to be given ethnic status, what would that mean? Can anyone suggest how they would realistically live out their customs in today's Ireland? Has the enthusiasm for supporting Travellers as an ethnic grouping anything to do with romantic notions of freedom and vicariously living a life on the open road?
    What does the Traveller culture require, is it to keep moving, living by the roadside, or on halting sites, with the consequent problems of inadequate education for the children, unreliable health care and sanitation? Is there a living to be made with this lifestyle? Everyone else has to abide by society's rules of working environments, pay VAT and insurance, be identifiable for the purposes of paying taxes and trading fairly.
    Wouldn't it be rather paternalisitic to keep Travellers dependant on society for the sake of this lifestyle?
    Would settled Travellers who have employment, are educating their children and are contributing members of society, want to be declared part of an ethnic group, could they 'opt out'?
    The point is made that we should not generalise about Travellers, they are not all thieves or beggers etc, they are individuals. So how does lumping them together into an ethnic group help their individuality? If the government decided to try and 'manage' them and insisted they carry Traveller identity cards there would be outrage, yet people are suggesting they should be made separate as an ethnic group, why?
    I teach some Traveller young people, but it is not relevant to my subject to identify them or treat them differently to the rest of the class. How would it be relevant to create a different slot for them. There are also Africans, Chinese, Muslims, and they are not separated out, in fact they are encouraged to integrate in Irish society. This does not mean that they will lose their identity or should forget their history or culture.
    Travellers used to be called Tinkers, a name with inherent dignity which reflected their role in society. That time is gone - as have vast numbers of settled agricultural workers, and many aspects of rural life, because times have changed - but they have chosen to lose the description Tinker in favour of Traveller, which doesn't really mean anything at all. In a name change they have chosen to forget a major part of their own culture.
    What exactly is the settled community being asked to do to preserve the Traveller culture? Certainly we should support and care for the less well off in society, but preserving a culture can best be done by the people concerned, and preserving it does not necessarily mean living it out day by day.
    Sorry if I sound a bit pompous, that's just my writing style, I am just throwing my views into the discussion :)


  • #39
    PFJSplitter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,575 ✭✭✭✭PFJSplitter


    In 1964 or thereabouts, Ewan MacColl and his group presented "The Travelling People" on BBC. The album (CD) is available through Amazon and may be available through a local library.

    The Travelling People - A Radio Ballad by Ewan MacColl, Charles Parker and Peggy Seeger

    The programme was broadcast on BBC Home Service on 17th April 1964.

    Additionally, in the mid-seventies, TOPIC records released an album titled "Travellers - Songs, Stories, and Tunes From English Gypsies" (TOPIC 12TS395).

    Here in the USA and Canada, there is a growing, albeit invisible, Traveler community. Additionally, there is currently a website devoted to the traveling culture:
    The Gypsy Lore Society

    I would be, as others have stated, disinclined to label Travelers as an ethnic group, as theirs is the culture of travel.


  • #40
    spoonface
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭spoonface


    I read a book about Travellers a couple of years ago, an interesting point was that plenty of Travellers are descended from people who became migratory during the famine times as they had no choice.


  • #41
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    spoonface wrote: »
    I read a book about Travellers a couple of years ago, an interesting point was that plenty of Travellers are descended from people who became migratory during the famine times as they had no choice.

    Thats true, but the process itself began a little earlier. Rundale (communal leaseholding) tenants were cleared from enclosing estates after the napoleonic wars until their final eradication by improving landlords throughout the famine years. They farmed by techniques involving seasonal migration to mountain pastures, organized their governance by brehon law (kingship and tannistry up until the late 18th century), accounted for a large proportion of the poitin trade, migrated seasonally, and according to travel accounts (and other documents such as the devon commission) were hated by the larger tenantry due to their ability to resist rent collection.


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  • #42
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    [If Travellers were to be given ethnic status, what would that mean?]

    That’s a good question & takes us back to the origins of the thread.
    I think it’s a big IF there are at least 2 sides to it ,the Traveller community & Settled society , the Traveller community are still divided over the issue ,while I guess the settled society are mostly little concern by it but relying on government & local officials to whatever is best. Unfortunately the question has no easy answers .. At best it could mean some safeguards, law & protection for the Traveller community but at the same time some Travellers see it as undermining & demeaning to the community, surely before any legislation was ever passed some consideration should be given to the views of the people it would involve.


    [suggest how they would realistically live out their customs in today's Ireland?]
    In basic terms the same way as they do now , like any modern developing society they make changes & constantly adapt to the circumstances they meet or are confronted by.

    [Has the enthusiasm for supporting Travellers as an ethnic grouping anything to do with romantic notions of freedom and vicariously living a life on the open road? ]
    If that question relates to this forums topic I have no idea , What I can say is on the whole society has two basic views of Traveller/Gypsy society one is of the leafy sunny lanes with trailers parked on the roadside ,food cooking & children happily playing etc ,the other is of cars being striped down ,piles of rubbish wild dogs roaming & some thieving type scam being performed. Possibly the reality lays someplace between the two if at all. On a different note I would think origins of any ethnic status comes from EU membership & the early immigrant European union populations , that had suffered & fought hard for recognition & equality as minorities.

    [What does the Traveller culture require, is it to keep moving, living by the roadside, or on halting sites, with the consequent problems of inadequate education for the children, unreliable health care and sanitation? ]

    Again this is nothing new, since constant legislation has done nothing, but make the nomadic life ever more difficult, so new problems have been created with few issues being resolved. Education for the Gypsy communities does not have to be a problem, in the UK its known & accepted that the same goals for most Gypsy’s in the education system is not the same as mainstream society , mobile education ,home learning form part of the process with all sides recognising that because of Gypsy culture most will not attend the same amount of school days a year or attain the same exam results. For a few they do stay in education & even go on to further education but most want to leave & work within there own community as soon as possible . Sanitation is the biggest problem on sites ,lack of plentiful water supplies & waste disposal being the regular complaints of the inhabitants & often overcrowding by authorities enforcing more on to sites than local or site amenities can cope with.

    [The point is made that we should not generalise about Travellers, they are not all thieves or beggars etc, they are individuals. So how does lumping them together into an ethnic group help their individuality? ]
    Statistics show they are certainly not all thieves or beggars but the press /media mostly promote that image, I understand that for most to look at a nomadic Gypsy community from your outside settled view its not ever going to be easy to fully understand or recognise the true Gypsy community. The ethnic minority status of most existing peoples is for the benefit to all without individuals loosing any identity & see no good reason why that should not remain so in Ireland. After all they are mostly lumped together presently by society. Yet each community strives to maintain its hold of lifestyle & culture & within that so does each individual that the families are made-up from & in turn the community at large .

    [What exactly is the settled community being asked to do to preserve the Traveller culture? ] At this time nothing , the Traveller community has changed & adapted for countless generations & preserved much of its own identity against the odds.


  • #43
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    [FairFilly, do you think that there is a lot of negativity directed toward travellers in Ireland, because of negative experiences of them?]

    In all honesty my time in Ireland is short when compared to my life living elsewhere, I certainly think the press & electronic media here give a very similar approach as in the UK , most of the information broadcast or published is bad news ,sad news or unsavoury, all helping to promote a negative view of Gypsy/Travellers people .In no way does that help any of the community’s involved .


    [How do you think we can best understand their culture and reduce our negative experiences of each other? ]
    I am not sure the question has any easy answers ,education & acceptance are possibly two big issues ,the Gypsy/Travellers weald no power in politics, numbers or voting rites , the settled community with much higher numbers hold that key.

    Not having been educated in Ireland I know not the truth of the education system here , making a wild guess I would think from starting school as a child to leaving as a youth very little in the education system is about the Gypsy/Travellers.
    On a similar note look in most news agents for the magazine voice of the Traveller it wont be found, major bookshops & no Traveller books will be easily found, a lending library & again no Traveller books to be found. Read Irish history books & very little if any reference is made of Travellers .
    The constant laws that have made Traveller life more difficult & has possibly forced more contact between both communities has been implemented for generations but to no ones benefit .
    Travellers are part of Irish society & history ,they may be looked down on by the media & some of society & be unrecognised or ignored until its bad publicity, Fortunately the bonds that bind the individual into families & families into the movement as a whole will still remain strong & virtually unaltered at source for generations.
    In the past few years in GB most county’s have some form of event that’s managed to bring together both members of the settled & Traveller communities in an attempt to build bridges & form further understandings about both parts of a community.
    Also is the Gypsy/Traveller month this has nationwide events, TV/Radio broadcasts & debates .Art galleries & Libraries are also involved with promoting & displaying relevant items. Schools & some colleges get involved & many have members of the Gypsy/Traveller community come in to give demonstrations/lectures & debates.


  • #44
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,773 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    FairFilly, you say 'most of the information broadcast or published is bad news ,sad news or unsavoury, all helping to promote a negative view of Gypsy/Travellers people'. How does this differ from settled people? It is not a conspiracy, if a group of students tear a house apart in a drunken party you will see a headline 'Students wreck house'. If a group of football supporters go on a rampage and fight in the streets you will see 'Football Fans Fight'. You will not see any headlines about normal day to day life, there has to be something exceptional - I have never had any newspaper articles written about me as I go about my normal, law-abiding, self-supporting life, and nor has the vast majority of the rest of the population.
    You seem to be suggesting that the settled population should actively work to give the Travellers all the facilities they want in order to travel the country doing whatever they do. But they do, we pay taxes and our representatives (social services, public service etc) distribute a portion of this to people who need it, including Travellers.
    It is only right that society should support the sick, the elderly, people who have lost their jobs. Some Travellers fit into these categories, but many are people who are in fact working, dealing in horses or scrap or furniture; should they be supported too? How about some of their income being channelled into building or improving halting sites?
    Is it appropriate for one section of society to allow itself to be supported, just on the grounds that they are following their customs? Do they not have any responsibility for their own lives?
    There is education available to anyone willing to stand still long enough to accept it. If members of the settled community take their children out of school to go on holiday, there are questions asked. Parents are responsible for the education of their children, why should the Traveller community be any different? If settled parents kept their children in damp, dangerous, insanitary conditions, no matter how loving, well intentioned or involuntary, the children would be taken into care. Many settled people neither own their homes, nor have a council house, they struggle to pay rent, care for children, and live on social security or a low-paid job. In better times they pay taxes - to provide customised accommodation for Travellers?
    I do think that any people who want to lead eccentric or alternative lifestyles should be able to, but only if they can support their own eccentricity, and are not doing harm to their children or the wider community.


  • #45
    Azelfafage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭Azelfafage


    I would happily let a Traveller family live on on my front lawn.

    If they were clean.

    It seems to me that Travellers want to be filthy on my front lawn.

    And they call it "Their Culture" if I object to their filth.

    "My Culture" means I do not like filth.

    If I object to them I am a racist.

    The travellers are the racists.



    .


  • #46
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    Azelfafage wrote: »
    I would happily let a Traveller family live on on my front lawn.

    If they were clean.

    It seems to me that Travellers want to be filthy on my front lawn.

    And they call it "Their Culture" if I object to their filth.

    "My Culture" means I do not like filth.

    If I object to them I am a racist.

    The travellers are the racists.



    .

    Please read the sticky on discussion standards and do not post responses of this nature again.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055790943


  • #47
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    [You say , How does this differ from settled people? ]

    One of the commonest ways is that the press tend to make deliberate mention of Gypsy/Traveller etc in its reports, no matter what the circumstances are, for example
    [Gypsy] motorist find ,[Traveller] fraudster convicted, [Gypsy] shoplifter arrested would generally contain the Gypsy/Traveller reference unlike if it’s a member of the settled population or a sports fan. A comparison would be like your football fans ,if every time a settled person was mentioned in the media they listed the football team that was supported it would then be similar but not the same. The relevance of a persons football team ,or background of society should only be mentioned if it is strictly necessary to the report.
    The other point in relation to your football fans is that they chose to follow a team at some point in life ,they are not born into it as Gypsy/Travellers are ,similar with the students ,they could be reported as you mention except the chances are it would state town & most probably the institution of education they were from .All these sports fans & students would possibly be from very mixed social, & religious backgrounds but of mainstream society , the sports is a hobby & education is a passage of a part of life ,but that is not quiet the case with Gypsy/Travellers. As it’s the equivalent of settled society but on a different path.

    Stamp on the Camps was the headline of a series of articles the Sun newspaper ran from 9/3/05 it urged readers to stamp on the camps as part of the Sun war on Gypsies.

    Travellers/Gypsies are heavily stereo typed as problems, & have far less access to influential positions in the media , or other kinds of power. [the media students book, j,branston & r Stafford 1996 p83]

    A bullet in the head is what they need , [comment by settled man in the Independent 16th June 1993]

    The press, both broadsheets, local & national alike routinely represent Travellers in a manner that actively increases dislike of them & the way of life. That was the conclusion reached by monitoring the national press & much local press as possible [1999-2001] The CRE of London s media office concurred the same findings.[ Dr Rachel Morris Traveller research unit 1998-2002]

    A review 1998-99 of coverage of minority ethnic groups by 5 regional newspapers in N Ireland found such groups subject to marginalisation by media that was reactive & overly narrow in its definition of what constituted news ,It was found at times it reinforced stereo types of minority ethnic groups as criminal or deviant ,with particular regard to Travellers the Report noted 5 of 15 pages of press coverage to Travellers describing instances of, Travellers being demonised & reinforced common stereo types .

    The minority ethnic group accorded most media prominence in Northern Ireland is the Traveller community …they tend to be reported if the subject of controversy ,the media provides a platform for those councillors who take a dim view of Travellers. [L Fawcett Equality commission for N Ireland /press reporting on minority, ethnic issues & racism 1999 op:cit,p5]

    Clippings sent to Dr Rachel Morris & organisations like CRE 1999-2002 showed the positive/neutral pieces in the collection to be outweighed by the negative ratio of ten to one ,other extant research suggests this is to be expected & is a long standing problem. [94% of the coverage was racist /objectionable on other based standards grounds]

    1977 UNESCO analysed media reporting of race in UK/Canada & Ireland attention is drawn to the high rate of coverage to Travellers & that for some of the period certain constraints operating on race coverage did not get applied to Travellers [UNESCO, Op cit: p.160-164]

    December 2004 European commission against racism & intolerance [ECRI, a CoE body] notes at paragraph 129 Romany’s/Gypsies & Travellers are the ethnic minority group which faces the highest level of social prejudice, by reporting often in a sensational way & using stereo types & racist language ,in the media print .


  • #48
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    [There is education available to anyone willing to stand still long enough to accept it]
    There is some education available for distance learning & duel enrolment .
    .
    . [Parents are responsible for the education of their children,] Yes &
    The state is responsible for providing education for all children , regardless of parents likes or dislikes & no matter what type of community.

    Educational skills are often of limited importance for Gypsy’s/Travellers & culturally there is a strong drive for males [in particular] to learn relevant practical skills & move towards adulthood by participating in employment opportunities , often by working alongside fathers or family members from a young age. Learning the trade & becoming familiar with work patterns & culturally appropriate behaviour. Although most attend schooling up to secondary level.

    Gypsy/Traveller education is a difficult subject not only in the here & now but also by trying to research its history & past information. Possibly the most noted work so far is by STEP [Scottish Traveller Education Project.] at the university of Edinburgh. ,England’s is via individual LEA & TES Traveller education services. While Sandra Clay & Mary Waterson are the distinguished ones for gathering information in Wales. All 3 systems have found various ways of providing suitable education for the majority ,Northern Ireland has a separate school for Traveller children in Belfast , but no segregation like that is used in England/Scotland or Wales anymore. Under various schemes GB has a number of special teachers & liaison workers for helping with Gypsy Traveller education likewise to other minorities

    What tends to be problem areas in the education system for Gypsy’s & Travellers is the points of conflict between some parts of education & there cultural background ways making some aspects very difficult for both the Gypsy /Travellers & Schools to overcome. At times this results in deeper problems. Also is the initial registration process of finding a place for these children part way into any school year for a newly arrived family in a given area. For a number of families the big issue is that a school will not except the children simply because the family are not living on a registered site. One survey 2001 for the Republic of Ireland found only 38 Gypsy Traveller pupils in secondary education
    across the country & only one in further education .[Dr C Clark]


  • #49
    FairFilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭FairFilly


    For the time I think its best I try to sum-up any other points before I either create an almighty argument or bore people to death .
    I will say the following ,Gypsy/Travellers culture, customs nomadism etc are as old & established as deeply as any of the settled population, history shows these people existed in a similar way many, many generations ago, by constantly adapting to changes they still live this life in as best way as society will allow .
    These people have problems as do the settled populations, these people do have the occasional bad apple, just like the settled population.

    Both these populations have to live & share the same basic lands of population.& resources . The conflict between the two I doubt is desired by either side when it happens , local authorities & governments make rules, enforce rules & change rules,.

    The settled population has the numbers of voting power & it’s the common man & Gypsy Traveller that have to live by the consequences of any legislation. I see many gripes by settled people saying pretty much the same points, no matter what forum/message board or newspapers ,readers writes etc, they don’t pay tax, they live of the tax payers ,they are dirty, etc, etc.

    Of course the reality is large numbers of settled people are guilty of the same things, play the system, fiddle income tax, & vat , deliberately spend a lifetime in social housing & benefits, others scam insurance companies, holiday insurances etc, squatters rites or extravagant expenses .

    Not all settled peoples accommodation is spotless clean, not all housing estates/ complexes is love thy neighbour , I would say virtually most accusation against Gypsy/Traveller populations could also be found in a settled population .
    what you wont find in a Gypsy Traveller community is much if any difference of theft, burglary, handling stolen goods compared to settled society but that, fraud or forgery are exceedingly rare & sexual crimes have not been found .[Dr m Greenfield’s Gypsies & Travellers p173]

    Its never going to be easy whatever way things move, the old saying about not tarring everyone with the same brush should apply equally to Gypsy/Travellers as to any other population. I guess we are all mostly the same ,in that we tend to look out for our own first & then the others. no matter what side of a fence we are on.

    As for sites ,they come in a variety of types, long stay/permanent, short stay privately owned or run & government owned/run, not for getting illegal sites & temporary stopping places. Mainly governments announce some basic formula about the number of existing sites & the further number required, but often local opposition prevents or delays for years many new sites ,while local authorities tend to spend a lot of effort in clearing illegal sites .In GB on more than one site the Gypsy/Travellers have supplied both labour & materials for the drainage, hard standings, fencing ,road ways & entrance /exit roads & when these options are made its generally taken up ,but rarely for council run/owned developments ,possibly because of the ongoing feuds regarding locations& security of tenure etc.


    How much bearing these matters have on the original question [Would you consider them as an ethnic group?]
    I am not sure , perhaps it’s a case of what would people hope for or be in fear of, by them being recognised or not as an ethnic group! what could be gained or lost by all parts of society.


  • #50
    spoonface
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭spoonface


    FairFilly wrote: »
    [You say , How does this differ from settled people? ]

    One of the commonest ways is that the press tend to make deliberate mention of Gypsy/Traveller etc in its reports, no matter what the circumstances are, for example
    [Gypsy] motorist find ,[Traveller] fraudster convicted, [Gypsy] shoplifter arrested would generally contain the Gypsy/Traveller reference unlike if it’s a member of the settled population or a sports fan. A comparison would be like your football fans ,if every time a settled person was mentioned in the media they listed the football team that was supported it would then be similar but not the same. The relevance of a persons football team ,or background of society should only be mentioned if it is strictly necessary to the report.
    The other point in relation to your football fans is that they chose to follow a team at some point in life ,they are not born into it as Gypsy/Travellers are ,similar with the students ,they could be reported as you mention except the chances are it would state town & most probably the institution of education they were from .All these sports fans & students would possibly be from very mixed social, & religious backgrounds but of mainstream society , the sports is a hobby & education is a passage of a part of life ,but that is not quiet the case with Gypsy/Travellers. As it’s the equivalent of settled society but on a different path.

    Stamp on the Camps was the headline of a series of articles the Sun newspaper ran from 9/3/05 it urged readers to stamp on the camps as part of the Sun war on Gypsies.

    Travellers/Gypsies are heavily stereo typed as problems, & have far less access to influential positions in the media , or other kinds of power. [the media students book, j,branston & r Stafford 1996 p83]

    A bullet in the head is what they need , [comment by settled man in the Independent 16th June 1993]

    The press, both broadsheets, local & national alike routinely represent Travellers in a manner that actively increases dislike of them & the way of life. That was the conclusion reached by monitoring the national press & much local press as possible [1999-2001] The CRE of London s media office concurred the same findings.[ Dr Rachel Morris Traveller research unit 1998-2002]

    A review 1998-99 of coverage of minority ethnic groups by 5 regional newspapers in N Ireland found such groups subject to marginalisation by media that was reactive & overly narrow in its definition of what constituted news ,It was found at times it reinforced stereo types of minority ethnic groups as criminal or deviant ,with particular regard to Travellers the Report noted 5 of 15 pages of press coverage to Travellers describing instances of, Travellers being demonised & reinforced common stereo types .

    The minority ethnic group accorded most media prominence in Northern Ireland is the Traveller community …they tend to be reported if the subject of controversy ,the media provides a platform for those councillors who take a dim view of Travellers. [L Fawcett Equality commission for N Ireland /press reporting on minority, ethnic issues & racism 1999 op:cit,p5]

    Clippings sent to Dr Rachel Morris & organisations like CRE 1999-2002 showed the positive/neutral pieces in the collection to be outweighed by the negative ratio of ten to one ,other extant research suggests this is to be expected & is a long standing problem. [94% of the coverage was racist /objectionable on other based standards grounds]

    1977 UNESCO analysed media reporting of race in UK/Canada & Ireland attention is drawn to the high rate of coverage to Travellers & that for some of the period certain constraints operating on race coverage did not get applied to Travellers [UNESCO, Op cit: p.160-164]

    December 2004 European commission against racism & intolerance [ECRI, a CoE body] notes at paragraph 129 Romany’s/Gypsies & Travellers are the ethnic minority group which faces the highest level of social prejudice, by reporting often in a sensational way & using stereo types & racist language ,in the media print .


    Excellent informative post, thanks for this.


  • #51
    calledit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭calledit


    what was Manuela Riedo's experience of traveller culture? the french girl raped by the same culprit? the 13 year old who was the x-case? the 86 year old raped by the same cuprit? now, we could put all of this down to dis-crimination?


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