Irish Traveller Culture

WindSock

Would you consider them as an ethnic group? I am confused by how many different languages they have. Gammon, Shelta and Cant. What are the differences, and which is the main one?

WindSock

WindSock wrote: »

Would you consider them as an ethnic group? I am confused by how many different languages they have. Gammon, Shelta and Cant. What are the differences, and which is the main one?

Well, I suppose they are an ethnic group, aren't they? They're a group of people who have a common and distinctive culture and heritage, so in that respect I suppose they are. It really depends on how you'd define an ethnic group; I've always thought that the definition--this is the definition I learned for LC geography a few years ago--was a group of people who share a particular and distinctive culture, or heritage, or language, or religion, etc.

As for the second part of the question, I honestly don't know. It's bad for me to admit that I've never heard of any of their languages.

Rozabeez

I know they consider themselves as an ethnic group, but to discuss it we'd have to clear up that we view them as an "other" or a "them" instead of simply as Irish people as it's not a class difference thing, it's an ethnicity thing. I've a good article on it somewhere...probably under my bed

mikemac

Absolutely not a different group.
The Irish state confirms they are not a different ethnic group so that's what we go by

Rozabeez

mikemac wrote: »

Absolutely not a different group.
The Irish state confirms they are not a different ethnic group so that's what we go by

I disagree with this because it depends how people view themselves and what travellers as a group consider themselves to be, not just a label (or lack of) thrown around by the State.

holly1

WindSock wrote: »

Would you consider them as an ethnic group? I am confused by how many different languages they have. Gammon, Shelta and Cant. What are the differences, and which is the main one?

I think the language is all the same,it's just got different titles for different parts of the country and groups,it,s called Gammon here in my part of Kildare.
This is just my opinion.

Rozabeez

We need to remember this isn't a debate, it's a discussion, there's not right or wrong opinion

holly1

Rozabeez wrote: »

We need to remember this isn't a debate, it's a discussion, there's not right or wrong opinion

Sorry was that directed at me :).

chughes

I wouldn't consider Travellers to be a different ethnic group. They are Irish people who have chosen a type of lifestyle for themselves.

Some people may choose to consider Travellers to be a different ethnic group in order to leverage funding from central government or halting sites from county councils but the bottom line is that they are no different to the rest of the Irish race and shouldn't be treated any differently.

WindSock

I would consider them to be an ethnic group too. They certainly have a different culture to the rest of Ireland. The thing is, I really don't know much about it. I don't think many Irish people do.
I know the Irish Traveller Movement have been trying to appeal to get recognition, but the Irish Governemnt hasn't given any solid reasons why it isn't granting them the status.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0616/1224248899709.html

He said that to recognise Travellers as an ethnic group “is not to state that Travellers are a distinct race from the rest of the Irish population” but that it would have implications for the recognition and respect for Travellers’ cultural identity “and the obligation to ensure that respect is reflected in policy decisions by Government and public bodies

Cannibal Ox

mikemac wrote:

The Irish state confirms they are not a different ethnic group so that's what we go by

They're a seperate ethnic/cultural group in the census. (The question is, What is your ethnic or cultural background? Irish, Irish Traveller, Any other white background.). I think the intention is probably to label them a cultural grouping though.

I don't think an ethnic group needs state recognition to claim a distinct ethnicity, but I would say it needs to be justified through a distinct history and cultural practices, which, from the little I know, I think travelers can claim. I'd also say there's a certain utility in travelers being an ethnic grouping in Ireland in terms of legislation.

dlofnep

Of course they are a separate ethnic group.

mikemac wrote: »

Absolutely not a different group.
The Irish state confirms they are not a different ethnic group so that's what we go by

The Irish state doesn't define who is and who isn't an ethnic group. Give me your definition of an ethnic group, and then we'll see if they are or aren't.

mikemac

dlofnep wrote: »

The Irish state doesn't define who is and who isn't an ethnic group.

Ok, maybe I shouldn't said define but what I meant to say was the Irish state will not recognize them as a different group.

And in that newspaper link, the Irish Traveller Movement are demanding to " to grant Travellers the status of an ethnic group"
So that is what they are looking for and the Irish state won't do it

I go along with the government opinion here if that's what's been decided

dlofnep

mikemac wrote: »

Ok, maybe I shouldn't said define but what I meant to say was the Irish state will not recognize them as a different group.

So you agree that they are indeed an ethnic group?

mikemac wrote: »

And in that newspaper link, the Irish Traveller Movement are demanding to " to grant Travellers the status of an ethnic group"

Yes, and rightfully so. They wish to be declared as a separate ethnic group, and meet all the requirements to do so.

mikemac wrote: »

I go along with the government opinion here if that's what's been decided

So what you're saying is that, although they are indeed an ethnic group - you're going along with something which is subjective.

WindSock

Looks like it was traveller focus week last week too. Didn't hear anything about it.

eleanoroosevelt

I believe a lot of the problems travellers face today stems from the lack of recognition they receive in irish society as a separate ethnic group.
They are looked on as a nuisance and some people just refer to them as "the knackers" or "the tinkers"
This level of degradation surely doesn't do anything for their self-esteem and doesn't encourage them to educate themselves or their children and so they get caught in a vicious circle.
Irish society doesn't give them a place within its society. If from childhood you're led to believe you're worthless and a leech on society it's not surprising you're lack of belief in your ability cripples you. Travellers are stereotyped and they fulfill this stereotype because they're told they can be nothing else.
We need to encourage travellers to preserve their culture and their language- I've heard travellers speak cant and they've done better job at preserving cant than we've done at preserving irish!
I feel they should be given status as a sepatate ethnic group and be made proud of their culture. We need to give them a place in todays society, only then will the stereotypical anti-social behaviour stop.

Mr. Presentable

Bonk

FairFilly

Starting with the original question, [Would you consider them as an ethnic group? ]
I can only comment from what I have so far seen & learnt from within Ireland in connection to the Pavee/Traveller community at large, I do think they are a totally separate but indigenous group within Ireland mostly born & bred here for as many generations as any Irish could ever claim for themselves , Not only that but what the Traveller community have is a common language [A very interesting topic on its own] a common religion & shared history, not forgetting traditions & cultural practices all of this stems from many generations living in a world that is mostly separate from the main stream of Irish life
A fact remains that it is believed [Not proven] that the Travellers are a old mixture of original Travelling families plus a few that were forced off the land or who took to the roads during the periods of famine .The truth is the Irish Travellers heritage is as old & genuine as any could be , they have produced much needed goods & services through generations, sports men & musicians, dancers not forgetting traditional food .


During the autumn period of 2008 a ongoing debate was underway in parts of the Traveller community regarding the ethnic minority debate & here’s the very basic fundamentals that came up.


Some were in favour while others were not in favour much of it was in connection with Irelands own part of obligations regarding the signed up principles of the UN convention for all forms of racial discrimination ,However because the Travellers are Irish no protection under that system would cover them. Many Pavee are not interested by having any more labels applied to them ,particularly if it could make them separate from being termed Irish as that is the native/indigenous roots of the community.

By comparison in England the Irish Travellers are classed as a ethnic minority ,most probably because it is not the true country of origin for them, .Scottish travellers & English Romany’s face similar issues within the homeland communities & on a political scale within Great Britain.
Ireland has a lot of problems & many new ones with the way the world has changed in the last few months, From where I am standing the Pavee/Travellers are mostly ignored or looked down on by society in general, any bad news that can be linked to them & it is mentioned ,in many ways its like what’s happened to many minorities or immigrants over generations in most developed countries, true no smoke without fire, but drive along the roads ,the litter ,dumped cars ,household goods etc its not all from the Pavee ,the prisons are full to bursting ,but not with the Pavee. Sure some commit crimes & get away with it ,just like members of mainstream do .
I notice bookshop shelves heaving with every Irish topic & fragment of history except for finding a book on the Travellers, in Sports headlines on reaching any achievement the Irish media is shouting aloud along with the public, but little if any mention is made about that star is from the Traveller community.
I think people come in all types ,no matter what colour, religeon,age ,gender or social background etc some people are genuinely good while a minority are bad , the bad is what most tend to remember.
I am not sure that society is right to try assimilating all people particularly ones who have lived by slight adaptations in the same ways for generations, legislation has been used to try forcing people off the roads , new sites are few ,many times officialdom would like everyone to be pigeon holed in shoebox lifestyles .

dlofnep

nipplenuts wrote: »

They are not a different ethnic group, they are a different ethical group. Being outside of normal social boundaries by economical choice is not an ethnicity.

They choose (largely) a pariah's lifestyle, and are effectively outside the auspices of the law because we have people excusing their anti-social, anti-establishment behaviour by giving them an ethnic badge.

If thieving, dumping, imtimidation and scumbaggery are a culture, then we must redefine Art, Philosophy, Respect and Humanity.

Way to go to paint everyone with the same brush.

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

Way to go to paint everyone with the same brush.

nipplenuts received a warning for his post.

I don't want anybody to reply or respond to the points which nipplenuts made, nor do I want anybody to respond to what I've quoted. If, from this point on, somebody does, they'll be infracted. Thanks.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Iolar

Iolar wrote: »

You may not agree with his opinion but is that not stiffling discussion?

No. I don't want people responding to certain points he raised in his post.

Also, please don't derail the thread further by questioning moderation again.

The Chessplayer

Rozabeez wrote: »

I disagree with this because it depends how people view themselves and what travellers as a group consider themselves to be, not just a label (or lack of) thrown around by the State.

No, this is codswallop. It's possible for a grouping of people to have an inaccurate perception of themselves. If all the inhabitants of Blarney proclaimed themselves to be an ethnic group apart, should this be accepted because that is how they perceive themselves? No, of course not. What a load of absolute cobblers!

Also, culture and ethnicity should not be confused.

Ostrom

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Also, culture and ethnicity should not be confused.

Are you suggesting there is no association?

dlofnep

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Also, culture and ethnicity should not be confused.

Let's have your definition for culture and ethnicity and we'll see then. Culture plays a role in ethnicity.

The Chessplayer

efla wrote: »

Are you suggesting there is no association?

No, but that culture, in the context of this thread, is an indicator of ethnicity.

Rozabeez

The Chessplayer wrote: »

No, this is codswallop. It's possible for a grouping of people to have an inaccurate perception of themselves. If all the inhabitants of Blarney proclaimed themselves to be an ethnic group apart, should this be accepted because that is how they perceive themselves? No, of course not. What a load of absolute cobblers!

Also, culture and ethnicity should not be confused.

That depends. Hypothetically speaking, what would the people of Blarney be basing their 'difference' on? Would it be a very long history of different culture to other Irish people?

The Chessplayer

Rozabeez wrote: »

That depends. Hypothetically speaking, what would the people of Blarney be basing their 'difference' on? Would it be a very long history of different culture to other Irish people?

It's remarkable that people would disect notions of ethnicity in such a meaningless way. The people of Donegal have a "very long history of different culture" to those of Cork; that doesn't mean it is necessary to recognise them as a specific ethnic strain. Travellers are more like a 33rd county. Perhaps surnames would be a good measure of separate ethnicity. Travellers share surnames commonly found in every Irish county.

dlofnep

The Chessplayer wrote: »

It's remarkable that people would disect notions of ethnicity in such a meaningless way. The people of Donegal have a "very long history of different culture" to those of Cork; that doesn't mean it is necessary to recognise them as a specific ethnic strain. Travellers are more like a 33rd county. Perhaps surnames would be a good measure of separate ethnicity. Travellers share surnames commonly found in every Irish county.

That's a very narrow view on the situation.

Travellers live different, speak differently, look differently, have a different history, take part in different sports (most boxing), have their own language, their own stories that they tell their children. They haven't been ethnically the same as us since the famine.

The people in Cork and Donegal have alot more in common than we do with the travelling community.

professore

The modern usage definition of the Oxford English Dictionary is:

a[djective]
...
1.a. Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.
b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by racial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity. Also attrib.
n[oun]
...
2 A member of an ethnic group or minority. orig. U.S.
—Oxford English Dictionary "ethnic, a. and n."[23]

So yes, they most definitely are an ethnic group under point 1.a above.

Put it this way - if a Traveller family or a family from Blarney was to move into a housing estate, would the reaction be the same?

FairFilly

I think this is not a million miles away from other situations, the aboriginals of Australia & the native Americans of the USA both peoples are basically indigenous minority populations living as many groups of ethnics do, except by birthright . So the Travellers/Pavee are in a similar position in that they to are as undeniably native Irish but also a minority .

Next is the Traveller language ,this is shared not only in Ireland but at any settlement on the globe of the Pavee, take Great Britain the USA & Australia in all three destinations are embedded populations of Irish people, some of them since the famine years while others are more recent ,these people tend to describe themselves as Irish American/Australian etc the same in parallel can be seen of the Pavee they to have emigrated during similar times to the same countries & in each destination where they live ,they are living as Irish Travellers clinging to the same customs & culture as the ones in Ireland have .
So even down through the passage of time ,decade by decade the Irish living abroad or at home in Ireland are still living as two types of people settled & Traveller.

If a person today was to purchase a trailer & travell the roads ,that person would not be a true Traveller like the Pavee are, No matter what county the settled population have mostly attempted to remain settled but the Pavee were & are still mostly nomadic people. Close blood marriages are a common enough factor of the Pavee along with name changes little of that exists in the settled community.

In the mid 1500s Queen Elizabeth 1st introduced some of what are commonly called the anti Gyps laws these were also applied in Ireland with the penalty for being a Gypsy or Traveller to be deportation to the colonies .Today in most civilised countries its wrong or /& illegal to call Black people the N word or with Asians etc but in Ireland shops ,pubs & clubs do put out notices saying no Travellers I doubt it would ever be tolerated to do the same for the settled mainstream community. So both are Irish but remain separate now as they have been in the past.