Irish Traveller Culture

mikehn

I have been reading the previous posts with some interest and wonder have the posters any ongoing contact with the travelling community in general.
I am almost 60 and for most of that time have watched the evolution of the travelling community in my immediate area.I have know many of the old stock, sadly most of whom have now passed away, they were people of immense dignity and honour.
I have watched the present generation evolve into what I think of as commercial travellers "excuse pun" they are carving out an unpleasant niche with a public perception of no regard for the law and general social niceties.
In my area there are approximatly 30 traveller families, only five of these would I regard as good neighbours as they do not let their lifestyle intrude on their community. The travelling lifestyle is dead in this day and age as travelling involves illegal encampments with great cost to the community involved.
The present lifestyle does not warrant recognition as an ethnic minority.
Before any request for ethnic staus be tabled I believe that the present day travellers need to examine their present culture as they badly need to reinvent themselves in the public perception.
I write as somebody who has contact with the travelling community for most of my life, I have gone from absolute acceptance of the local travelling people to regarding the present generation with a jaundiced eye. these are my personal views and if anybody want to villify my comments so be it.
So would I vote for ethnic status No I would not.

The Chessplayer

FairFilly wrote: »

I think this is not a million miles away from other situations, the aboriginals of Australia & the native Americans of the USA both peoples are basically indigenous minority populations living as many groups of ethnics do, except by birthright . So the Travellers/Pavee are in a similar position in that they to are as undeniably native Irish but also a minority .

I see your point but I honestly think it's madness to mention travellers in the same paragraph as Aborigines and Indigenous Americans. You're talking about races that were almost wiped out through a policy of mega ethnic-cleansing that would leave even Slobodan Milosevic in the ha-penny place.

Traveller-perceived discrimination involved the policy of "settling" them.

FairFilly

Yes you are correct about the big difference between the Australia/USA situation I mentioned ,my point being only that a comparison of all these sets of people are natives in a homeland that for various reasons has forcibly effected traditional lifestyles & culture. They are all populations of minority indigenous people, that have been constantly legislated against for generations yet still try to retain some parts of historical culture that has been taken away little by little

FairFilly

True figures for how many Pavee have been displaced by anti Gypsy laws are not as yet available ,having said that these laws were a form of ethnic-cleansing, since that time I know that further anti Gypsy laws were introduced making what was a way of traditional life for that section basically impossible to live within the law.. Perhaps not carried out in a blatant manner but a similar result of eradicating a way of life. Today some comparisons & ongoing projects are being carried-out between these various Gypsy/Traveller groups simply because of a few common links .

Hitler & Nazi Germany tried to eradicate many Gypsy people & had its own project that put them in concentration camps ,did experiments etc .the estimated death figures for that are 250,000-500,000
Great Britain added to its anti Gypsy laws with the removal & transportation of children [Tinker clearances] 1888-1952 authorities swooped randomly on any Gypsy/Traveller sites & forcibly removed children between 7-13 years of age ,they were then transported to parts of the Empire never to return.

During this last year the Italian government had started a program of fingerprinting its Gypsy population .
All the present EU countries have at some point in history had anti Gypsy laws ranging from corporal punishment, deportation, hanging to state genocide .
The CJPOA of GB is seen & interpreted by many as a modern way of ethnic cleansing with the criminalisation of any nomadic ways of life .

Close bonds between the various types of people now grow stronger & with the help of internet technology quick & in-depth communication, facts, figures & comparisons can be analysed. Here follows a few old pieces of Irish information from July 1986, Paper no. 131. The ESRI .onwards.
Irish Travellers are still seen and treated as a 'lower caste' in society. . ."
According to his research findings there has been a substantial deterioration in attitudes towards Travellers since 1972-3, leading him to conclude that
"Irish people's prejudice against Travellers is one of caste-like apartheid."

Kenny in her investigation into the interaction between Traveller ethnic identity and schooling concludes that
"dominant sedentary society and its institutions remain the instigators and maintainers of institutional and interpersonal racism and exclusion, which has pressured Travellers over a long time-span into distorted performances"
(Kenny, 1997).
Quite clearly, a racial-isation process inferring the inferiority of Travellers is the outcome of media and political discourse.

Traveller tradition not a divine right."
Brendan O'Connor applauds Councillor Ann Devitt for suggesting that Traveller culture is not sacrosanct, and that the time has come for them to change their way of life. (Sunday Independent June 15 1997)

The sooner the shotguns are at the ready and these travelling people are put out of our
county the better.
They are not our people, they aren't natives." Remarks of a Fianna Fail Councillor at a Waterford County Council meeting. (Sunday Independent, 14 April 1996)

This year 2009
Jun 16, In Northern Ireland racist thugs armed with bricks and bottles forced more than 100 Romanian Gypsies from their Belfast homes in a wave of attacks that sent them fleeing to the safety of a nearby church
Jun 23, Northern Ireland’s government said more than 100 Romanian Gypsies who suffered racist attacks and intimidation in Belfast are being flown back home .
In Bucharest this year, Madonna made a statement live on stage in defence of the Romany peoples

The Irish census for 2002 recorded over 4,000 Traveller families that is about 23,681 individual Traveller people .
63% of them were under 25 years of age
33% of adults were over 65 years of age, Big debate is ongoing within GB Gypsy/Traveller communities regarding the next census as it will have provision for the first time ever for recording/registering information specifically about Gypsy/Traveller people.
In simple terms no matter what time period or what country ,Gypsy/Traveller people have been used for a perfect scapegoat for any particular event or crisis ,they provide authorities, local populations & the media with a focus point .

WindSock

FairFilly, do you think that there is a lot of negativity directed toward travellers in Ireland, because of negative experiences of them?

I am not saying any group is right over the other, I don't know many travellers, in fact I don't know any all too well. Therefore I don't know much about traveller culture or traveller voices. I am sure every traveller has had a bad experience with a member from the settled community, but it is also true that many settled people in Ireland mostly have only negative experiences with Travellers.
I think most settled people don't wish for travellers to be living in the extreme poverty or to be treated as they are. How do you think we can best understand their culture and reduce our negative experiences of each other?

Ostrom

WindSock wrote: »

I think most settled people don't wish for travellers to be living in the extreme poverty or to be treated as they are. How do you think we can best understand their culture and reduce our negative experiences of each other?

There was a traveller woman on one of our adult ed B.A's a few years back who did some research on traveller women (early marriage, expected duties in the home, violence). I never met her myself, but remember reading her thesis (I may be remembering a conversation also...) where she mentioned that it would be impossible for anyone outside the travelling community to reliably question them about anything.

Most of what I have come across is either historical or secondary, so I suppose more of the above would be a useful start (which isn't likely anytime soon considering recent cuts; if the combat poverty agency cant get any....)

looksee

I agree with Windsock's points and my experience of Travellers would be much the same as his/hers. If Travellers were to be given ethnic status, what would that mean? Can anyone suggest how they would realistically live out their customs in today's Ireland? Has the enthusiasm for supporting Travellers as an ethnic grouping anything to do with romantic notions of freedom and vicariously living a life on the open road?
What does the Traveller culture require, is it to keep moving, living by the roadside, or on halting sites, with the consequent problems of inadequate education for the children, unreliable health care and sanitation? Is there a living to be made with this lifestyle? Everyone else has to abide by society's rules of working environments, pay VAT and insurance, be identifiable for the purposes of paying taxes and trading fairly.
Wouldn't it be rather paternalisitic to keep Travellers dependant on society for the sake of this lifestyle?
Would settled Travellers who have employment, are educating their children and are contributing members of society, want to be declared part of an ethnic group, could they 'opt out'?
The point is made that we should not generalise about Travellers, they are not all thieves or beggers etc, they are individuals. So how does lumping them together into an ethnic group help their individuality? If the government decided to try and 'manage' them and insisted they carry Traveller identity cards there would be outrage, yet people are suggesting they should be made separate as an ethnic group, why?
I teach some Traveller young people, but it is not relevant to my subject to identify them or treat them differently to the rest of the class. How would it be relevant to create a different slot for them. There are also Africans, Chinese, Muslims, and they are not separated out, in fact they are encouraged to integrate in Irish society. This does not mean that they will lose their identity or should forget their history or culture.
Travellers used to be called Tinkers, a name with inherent dignity which reflected their role in society. That time is gone - as have vast numbers of settled agricultural workers, and many aspects of rural life, because times have changed - but they have chosen to lose the description Tinker in favour of Traveller, which doesn't really mean anything at all. In a name change they have chosen to forget a major part of their own culture.
What exactly is the settled community being asked to do to preserve the Traveller culture? Certainly we should support and care for the less well off in society, but preserving a culture can best be done by the people concerned, and preserving it does not necessarily mean living it out day by day.
Sorry if I sound a bit pompous, that's just my writing style, I am just throwing my views into the discussion

PFJSplitter

In 1964 or thereabouts, Ewan MacColl and his group presented "The Travelling People" on BBC. The album (CD) is available through Amazon and may be available through a local library.

The Travelling People - A Radio Ballad by Ewan MacColl, Charles Parker and Peggy Seeger

The programme was broadcast on BBC Home Service on 17th April 1964.

Additionally, in the mid-seventies, TOPIC records released an album titled "Travellers - Songs, Stories, and Tunes From English Gypsies" (TOPIC 12TS395).

Here in the USA and Canada, there is a growing, albeit invisible, Traveler community. Additionally, there is currently a website devoted to the traveling culture:
The Gypsy Lore Society

I would be, as others have stated, disinclined to label Travelers as an ethnic group, as theirs is the culture of travel.

spoonface

I read a book about Travellers a couple of years ago, an interesting point was that plenty of Travellers are descended from people who became migratory during the famine times as they had no choice.

Ostrom

spoonface wrote: »

I read a book about Travellers a couple of years ago, an interesting point was that plenty of Travellers are descended from people who became migratory during the famine times as they had no choice.

Thats true, but the process itself began a little earlier. Rundale (communal leaseholding) tenants were cleared from enclosing estates after the napoleonic wars until their final eradication by improving landlords throughout the famine years. They farmed by techniques involving seasonal migration to mountain pastures, organized their governance by brehon law (kingship and tannistry up until the late 18th century), accounted for a large proportion of the poitin trade, migrated seasonally, and according to travel accounts (and other documents such as the devon commission) were hated by the larger tenantry due to their ability to resist rent collection.

FairFilly

[If Travellers were to be given ethnic status, what would that mean?]

That’s a good question & takes us back to the origins of the thread.
I think it’s a big IF there are at least 2 sides to it ,the Traveller community & Settled society , the Traveller community are still divided over the issue ,while I guess the settled society are mostly little concern by it but relying on government & local officials to whatever is best. Unfortunately the question has no easy answers .. At best it could mean some safeguards, law & protection for the Traveller community but at the same time some Travellers see it as undermining & demeaning to the community, surely before any legislation was ever passed some consideration should be given to the views of the people it would involve.


[suggest how they would realistically live out their customs in today's Ireland?]
In basic terms the same way as they do now , like any modern developing society they make changes & constantly adapt to the circumstances they meet or are confronted by.

[Has the enthusiasm for supporting Travellers as an ethnic grouping anything to do with romantic notions of freedom and vicariously living a life on the open road? ]
If that question relates to this forums topic I have no idea , What I can say is on the whole society has two basic views of Traveller/Gypsy society one is of the leafy sunny lanes with trailers parked on the roadside ,food cooking & children happily playing etc ,the other is of cars being striped down ,piles of rubbish wild dogs roaming & some thieving type scam being performed. Possibly the reality lays someplace between the two if at all. On a different note I would think origins of any ethnic status comes from EU membership & the early immigrant European union populations , that had suffered & fought hard for recognition & equality as minorities.

[What does the Traveller culture require, is it to keep moving, living by the roadside, or on halting sites, with the consequent problems of inadequate education for the children, unreliable health care and sanitation? ]

Again this is nothing new, since constant legislation has done nothing, but make the nomadic life ever more difficult, so new problems have been created with few issues being resolved. Education for the Gypsy communities does not have to be a problem, in the UK its known & accepted that the same goals for most Gypsy’s in the education system is not the same as mainstream society , mobile education ,home learning form part of the process with all sides recognising that because of Gypsy culture most will not attend the same amount of school days a year or attain the same exam results. For a few they do stay in education & even go on to further education but most want to leave & work within there own community as soon as possible . Sanitation is the biggest problem on sites ,lack of plentiful water supplies & waste disposal being the regular complaints of the inhabitants & often overcrowding by authorities enforcing more on to sites than local or site amenities can cope with.

[The point is made that we should not generalise about Travellers, they are not all thieves or beggars etc, they are individuals. So how does lumping them together into an ethnic group help their individuality? ]
Statistics show they are certainly not all thieves or beggars but the press /media mostly promote that image, I understand that for most to look at a nomadic Gypsy community from your outside settled view its not ever going to be easy to fully understand or recognise the true Gypsy community. The ethnic minority status of most existing peoples is for the benefit to all without individuals loosing any identity & see no good reason why that should not remain so in Ireland. After all they are mostly lumped together presently by society. Yet each community strives to maintain its hold of lifestyle & culture & within that so does each individual that the families are made-up from & in turn the community at large .

[What exactly is the settled community being asked to do to preserve the Traveller culture? ] At this time nothing , the Traveller community has changed & adapted for countless generations & preserved much of its own identity against the odds.

FairFilly

[FairFilly, do you think that there is a lot of negativity directed toward travellers in Ireland, because of negative experiences of them?]

In all honesty my time in Ireland is short when compared to my life living elsewhere, I certainly think the press & electronic media here give a very similar approach as in the UK , most of the information broadcast or published is bad news ,sad news or unsavoury, all helping to promote a negative view of Gypsy/Travellers people .In no way does that help any of the community’s involved .


[How do you think we can best understand their culture and reduce our negative experiences of each other? ]
I am not sure the question has any easy answers ,education & acceptance are possibly two big issues ,the Gypsy/Travellers weald no power in politics, numbers or voting rites , the settled community with much higher numbers hold that key.

Not having been educated in Ireland I know not the truth of the education system here , making a wild guess I would think from starting school as a child to leaving as a youth very little in the education system is about the Gypsy/Travellers.
On a similar note look in most news agents for the magazine voice of the Traveller it wont be found, major bookshops & no Traveller books will be easily found, a lending library & again no Traveller books to be found. Read Irish history books & very little if any reference is made of Travellers .
The constant laws that have made Traveller life more difficult & has possibly forced more contact between both communities has been implemented for generations but to no ones benefit .
Travellers are part of Irish society & history ,they may be looked down on by the media & some of society & be unrecognised or ignored until its bad publicity, Fortunately the bonds that bind the individual into families & families into the movement as a whole will still remain strong & virtually unaltered at source for generations.
In the past few years in GB most county’s have some form of event that’s managed to bring together both members of the settled & Traveller communities in an attempt to build bridges & form further understandings about both parts of a community.
Also is the Gypsy/Traveller month this has nationwide events, TV/Radio broadcasts & debates .Art galleries & Libraries are also involved with promoting & displaying relevant items. Schools & some colleges get involved & many have members of the Gypsy/Traveller community come in to give demonstrations/lectures & debates.

looksee

FairFilly, you say 'most of the information broadcast or published is bad news ,sad news or unsavoury, all helping to promote a negative view of Gypsy/Travellers people'. How does this differ from settled people? It is not a conspiracy, if a group of students tear a house apart in a drunken party you will see a headline 'Students wreck house'. If a group of football supporters go on a rampage and fight in the streets you will see 'Football Fans Fight'. You will not see any headlines about normal day to day life, there has to be something exceptional - I have never had any newspaper articles written about me as I go about my normal, law-abiding, self-supporting life, and nor has the vast majority of the rest of the population.
You seem to be suggesting that the settled population should actively work to give the Travellers all the facilities they want in order to travel the country doing whatever they do. But they do, we pay taxes and our representatives (social services, public service etc) distribute a portion of this to people who need it, including Travellers.
It is only right that society should support the sick, the elderly, people who have lost their jobs. Some Travellers fit into these categories, but many are people who are in fact working, dealing in horses or scrap or furniture; should they be supported too? How about some of their income being channelled into building or improving halting sites?
Is it appropriate for one section of society to allow itself to be supported, just on the grounds that they are following their customs? Do they not have any responsibility for their own lives?
There is education available to anyone willing to stand still long enough to accept it. If members of the settled community take their children out of school to go on holiday, there are questions asked. Parents are responsible for the education of their children, why should the Traveller community be any different? If settled parents kept their children in damp, dangerous, insanitary conditions, no matter how loving, well intentioned or involuntary, the children would be taken into care. Many settled people neither own their homes, nor have a council house, they struggle to pay rent, care for children, and live on social security or a low-paid job. In better times they pay taxes - to provide customised accommodation for Travellers?
I do think that any people who want to lead eccentric or alternative lifestyles should be able to, but only if they can support their own eccentricity, and are not doing harm to their children or the wider community.

Azelfafage

I would happily let a Traveller family live on on my front lawn.

If they were clean.

It seems to me that Travellers want to be filthy on my front lawn.

And they call it "Their Culture" if I object to their filth.

"My Culture" means I do not like filth.

If I object to them I am a racist.

The travellers are the racists.



.

Ostrom

Azelfafage wrote: »

I would happily let a Traveller family live on on my front lawn.

If they were clean.

It seems to me that Travellers want to be filthy on my front lawn.

And they call it "Their Culture" if I object to their filth.

"My Culture" means I do not like filth.

If I object to them I am a racist.

The travellers are the racists.



.

Please read the sticky on discussion standards and do not post responses of this nature again.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055790943

FairFilly

[You say , How does this differ from settled people? ]

One of the commonest ways is that the press tend to make deliberate mention of Gypsy/Traveller etc in its reports, no matter what the circumstances are, for example
[Gypsy] motorist find ,[Traveller] fraudster convicted, [Gypsy] shoplifter arrested would generally contain the Gypsy/Traveller reference unlike if it’s a member of the settled population or a sports fan. A comparison would be like your football fans ,if every time a settled person was mentioned in the media they listed the football team that was supported it would then be similar but not the same. The relevance of a persons football team ,or background of society should only be mentioned if it is strictly necessary to the report.
The other point in relation to your football fans is that they chose to follow a team at some point in life ,they are not born into it as Gypsy/Travellers are ,similar with the students ,they could be reported as you mention except the chances are it would state town & most probably the institution of education they were from .All these sports fans & students would possibly be from very mixed social, & religious backgrounds but of mainstream society , the sports is a hobby & education is a passage of a part of life ,but that is not quiet the case with Gypsy/Travellers. As it’s the equivalent of settled society but on a different path.

Stamp on the Camps was the headline of a series of articles the Sun newspaper ran from 9/3/05 it urged readers to stamp on the camps as part of the Sun war on Gypsies.

Travellers/Gypsies are heavily stereo typed as problems, & have far less access to influential positions in the media , or other kinds of power. [the media students book, j,branston & r Stafford 1996 p83]

A bullet in the head is what they need , [comment by settled man in the Independent 16th June 1993]

The press, both broadsheets, local & national alike routinely represent Travellers in a manner that actively increases dislike of them & the way of life. That was the conclusion reached by monitoring the national press & much local press as possible [1999-2001] The CRE of London s media office concurred the same findings.[ Dr Rachel Morris Traveller research unit 1998-2002]

A review 1998-99 of coverage of minority ethnic groups by 5 regional newspapers in N Ireland found such groups subject to marginalisation by media that was reactive & overly narrow in its definition of what constituted news ,It was found at times it reinforced stereo types of minority ethnic groups as criminal or deviant ,with particular regard to Travellers the Report noted 5 of 15 pages of press coverage to Travellers describing instances of, Travellers being demonised & reinforced common stereo types .

The minority ethnic group accorded most media prominence in Northern Ireland is the Traveller community …they tend to be reported if the subject of controversy ,the media provides a platform for those councillors who take a dim view of Travellers. [L Fawcett Equality commission for N Ireland /press reporting on minority, ethnic issues & racism 1999 op:cit,p5]

Clippings sent to Dr Rachel Morris & organisations like CRE 1999-2002 showed the positive/neutral pieces in the collection to be outweighed by the negative ratio of ten to one ,other extant research suggests this is to be expected & is a long standing problem. [94% of the coverage was racist /objectionable on other based standards grounds]

1977 UNESCO analysed media reporting of race in UK/Canada & Ireland attention is drawn to the high rate of coverage to Travellers & that for some of the period certain constraints operating on race coverage did not get applied to Travellers [UNESCO, Op cit: p.160-164]

December 2004 European commission against racism & intolerance [ECRI, a CoE body] notes at paragraph 129 Romany’s/Gypsies & Travellers are the ethnic minority group which faces the highest level of social prejudice, by reporting often in a sensational way & using stereo types & racist language ,in the media print .

FairFilly

[There is education available to anyone willing to stand still long enough to accept it]
There is some education available for distance learning & duel enrolment .
.
. [Parents are responsible for the education of their children,] Yes &
The state is responsible for providing education for all children , regardless of parents likes or dislikes & no matter what type of community.

Educational skills are often of limited importance for Gypsy’s/Travellers & culturally there is a strong drive for males [in particular] to learn relevant practical skills & move towards adulthood by participating in employment opportunities , often by working alongside fathers or family members from a young age. Learning the trade & becoming familiar with work patterns & culturally appropriate behaviour. Although most attend schooling up to secondary level.

Gypsy/Traveller education is a difficult subject not only in the here & now but also by trying to research its history & past information. Possibly the most noted work so far is by STEP [Scottish Traveller Education Project.] at the university of Edinburgh. ,England’s is via individual LEA & TES Traveller education services. While Sandra Clay & Mary Waterson are the distinguished ones for gathering information in Wales. All 3 systems have found various ways of providing suitable education for the majority ,Northern Ireland has a separate school for Traveller children in Belfast , but no segregation like that is used in England/Scotland or Wales anymore. Under various schemes GB has a number of special teachers & liaison workers for helping with Gypsy Traveller education likewise to other minorities

What tends to be problem areas in the education system for Gypsy’s & Travellers is the points of conflict between some parts of education & there cultural background ways making some aspects very difficult for both the Gypsy /Travellers & Schools to overcome. At times this results in deeper problems. Also is the initial registration process of finding a place for these children part way into any school year for a newly arrived family in a given area. For a number of families the big issue is that a school will not except the children simply because the family are not living on a registered site. One survey 2001 for the Republic of Ireland found only 38 Gypsy Traveller pupils in secondary education
across the country & only one in further education .[Dr C Clark]

FairFilly

For the time I think its best I try to sum-up any other points before I either create an almighty argument or bore people to death .
I will say the following ,Gypsy/Travellers culture, customs nomadism etc are as old & established as deeply as any of the settled population, history shows these people existed in a similar way many, many generations ago, by constantly adapting to changes they still live this life in as best way as society will allow .
These people have problems as do the settled populations, these people do have the occasional bad apple, just like the settled population.

Both these populations have to live & share the same basic lands of population.& resources . The conflict between the two I doubt is desired by either side when it happens , local authorities & governments make rules, enforce rules & change rules,.

The settled population has the numbers of voting power & it’s the common man & Gypsy Traveller that have to live by the consequences of any legislation. I see many gripes by settled people saying pretty much the same points, no matter what forum/message board or newspapers ,readers writes etc, they don’t pay tax, they live of the tax payers ,they are dirty, etc, etc.

Of course the reality is large numbers of settled people are guilty of the same things, play the system, fiddle income tax, & vat , deliberately spend a lifetime in social housing & benefits, others scam insurance companies, holiday insurances etc, squatters rites or extravagant expenses .

Not all settled peoples accommodation is spotless clean, not all housing estates/ complexes is love thy neighbour , I would say virtually most accusation against Gypsy/Traveller populations could also be found in a settled population .
what you wont find in a Gypsy Traveller community is much if any difference of theft, burglary, handling stolen goods compared to settled society but that, fraud or forgery are exceedingly rare & sexual crimes have not been found .[Dr m Greenfield’s Gypsies & Travellers p173]

Its never going to be easy whatever way things move, the old saying about not tarring everyone with the same brush should apply equally to Gypsy/Travellers as to any other population. I guess we are all mostly the same ,in that we tend to look out for our own first & then the others. no matter what side of a fence we are on.

As for sites ,they come in a variety of types, long stay/permanent, short stay privately owned or run & government owned/run, not for getting illegal sites & temporary stopping places. Mainly governments announce some basic formula about the number of existing sites & the further number required, but often local opposition prevents or delays for years many new sites ,while local authorities tend to spend a lot of effort in clearing illegal sites .In GB on more than one site the Gypsy/Travellers have supplied both labour & materials for the drainage, hard standings, fencing ,road ways & entrance /exit roads & when these options are made its generally taken up ,but rarely for council run/owned developments ,possibly because of the ongoing feuds regarding locations& security of tenure etc.


How much bearing these matters have on the original question [Would you consider them as an ethnic group?]
I am not sure , perhaps it’s a case of what would people hope for or be in fear of, by them being recognised or not as an ethnic group! what could be gained or lost by all parts of society.

spoonface

FairFilly wrote: »

[You say , How does this differ from settled people? ]

One of the commonest ways is that the press tend to make deliberate mention of Gypsy/Traveller etc in its reports, no matter what the circumstances are, for example
[Gypsy] motorist find ,[Traveller] fraudster convicted, [Gypsy] shoplifter arrested would generally contain the Gypsy/Traveller reference unlike if it’s a member of the settled population or a sports fan. A comparison would be like your football fans ,if every time a settled person was mentioned in the media they listed the football team that was supported it would then be similar but not the same. The relevance of a persons football team ,or background of society should only be mentioned if it is strictly necessary to the report.
The other point in relation to your football fans is that they chose to follow a team at some point in life ,they are not born into it as Gypsy/Travellers are ,similar with the students ,they could be reported as you mention except the chances are it would state town & most probably the institution of education they were from .All these sports fans & students would possibly be from very mixed social, & religious backgrounds but of mainstream society , the sports is a hobby & education is a passage of a part of life ,but that is not quiet the case with Gypsy/Travellers. As it’s the equivalent of settled society but on a different path.

Stamp on the Camps was the headline of a series of articles the Sun newspaper ran from 9/3/05 it urged readers to stamp on the camps as part of the Sun war on Gypsies.

Travellers/Gypsies are heavily stereo typed as problems, & have far less access to influential positions in the media , or other kinds of power. [the media students book, j,branston & r Stafford 1996 p83]

A bullet in the head is what they need , [comment by settled man in the Independent 16th June 1993]

The press, both broadsheets, local & national alike routinely represent Travellers in a manner that actively increases dislike of them & the way of life. That was the conclusion reached by monitoring the national press & much local press as possible [1999-2001] The CRE of London s media office concurred the same findings.[ Dr Rachel Morris Traveller research unit 1998-2002]

A review 1998-99 of coverage of minority ethnic groups by 5 regional newspapers in N Ireland found such groups subject to marginalisation by media that was reactive & overly narrow in its definition of what constituted news ,It was found at times it reinforced stereo types of minority ethnic groups as criminal or deviant ,with particular regard to Travellers the Report noted 5 of 15 pages of press coverage to Travellers describing instances of, Travellers being demonised & reinforced common stereo types .

The minority ethnic group accorded most media prominence in Northern Ireland is the Traveller community …they tend to be reported if the subject of controversy ,the media provides a platform for those councillors who take a dim view of Travellers. [L Fawcett Equality commission for N Ireland /press reporting on minority, ethnic issues & racism 1999 op:cit,p5]

Clippings sent to Dr Rachel Morris & organisations like CRE 1999-2002 showed the positive/neutral pieces in the collection to be outweighed by the negative ratio of ten to one ,other extant research suggests this is to be expected & is a long standing problem. [94% of the coverage was racist /objectionable on other based standards grounds]

1977 UNESCO analysed media reporting of race in UK/Canada & Ireland attention is drawn to the high rate of coverage to Travellers & that for some of the period certain constraints operating on race coverage did not get applied to Travellers [UNESCO, Op cit: p.160-164]

December 2004 European commission against racism & intolerance [ECRI, a CoE body] notes at paragraph 129 Romany’s/Gypsies & Travellers are the ethnic minority group which faces the highest level of social prejudice, by reporting often in a sensational way & using stereo types & racist language ,in the media print .

Excellent informative post, thanks for this.

calledit

what was Manuela Riedo's experience of traveller culture? the french girl raped by the same culprit? the 13 year old who was the x-case? the 86 year old raped by the same cuprit? now, we could put all of this down to dis-crimination?

Seren_

FairFilly wrote: »

What tends to be problem areas in the education system for Gypsy’s & Travellers is the points of conflict between some parts of education & there cultural background ways making some aspects very difficult for both the Gypsy /Travellers & Schools to overcome. At times this results in deeper problems. Also is the initial registration process of finding a place for these children part way into any school year for a newly arrived family in a given area. For a number of families the big issue is that a school will not except the children simply because the family are not living on a registered site. One survey 2001 for the Republic of Ireland found only 38 Gypsy Traveller pupils in secondary education
across the country & only one in further education .[Dr C Clark]

The number of Travellers in secondary and third level education has increased a lot since that survey was done. I think there's roughly 60 or so in further education at the moment, and a few of them have went through the entire educational system in I suppose what would be considered the "usual" way, i.e. doing the Leaving Cert and going on to college through the points system. This fact needs to be more widely publicised, so people don't just generalise an entire group of people as lazy and uneducated, which as I've seen from other posts and threads on boards and in society in general, is a widely held view of Travellers.

Also, the importance of education for Travellers is one thing that is being addressed at the moment by groups such as the Irish Traveller Movement, and also the introduction of Access programmes in universities and I.Ts. Programmes such as these give help and support to Travellers throughout their time in college (these programmes are also aimed at other under-represented groups in higher education, such as people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, and people with disabilities.)

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

calledit wrote: »

what was Manuela Riedo's experience of traveller culture? the french girl raped by the same culprit? the 13 year old who was the x-case? the 86 year old raped by the same cuprit? now, we could put all of this down to dis-crimination?

Are you suggesting that travellers had something to do with these incidents?

Just for the record, I know who the guy is that was charged with Manuela Riedo's murder, and he's not a traveller.

calledit

calledit wrote: »

what was Manuela Riedo's experience of traveller culture? the french girl raped by the same culprit? the 13 year old who was the x-case? the 86 year old raped by the same cuprit? now, we could put all of this down to dis-crimination?

I hope you're not suggesting that--even if the above offences were commited by members of the travelling community--such instances are representative of the travelling community? That won't be tolerated on this forum.

Seren_

No offence, but I'm sure that Travellers can't possibly take up that much of the time in court when they are such a small percentage of society in general. Obviously there are some members who do engage in illegal activities, but that can be said of any group of people. I think it's a bit unfair to tar all Travellers as criminals just because of the actions of a minority.

calledit

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055790943

Read the above link. If you have nothing substantial to contribute, please do not post again - efla

calledit

The vast majority of people using this very general and not so explanatry label are decent folk. They may get a bad reference from misbehaved members of this grouping. This guy knows it better than I and is unbiased.http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/news-gossip/im-a-social-worker-but-even-i-am-angry-with-travellers-1733905.html

panda100

FairFilly wrote: »

I think this is not a million miles away from other situations, the aboriginals of Australia & the native Americans of the USA both peoples are basically indigenous minority populations living as many groups of ethnics do, except by birthright . So the Travellers/Pavee are in a similar position in that they to are as undeniably native Irish but also a minority .

Can we really compare the travelling community with the Aboriginies or the Maori's? Are they indigenous to Ireland?

I had heared of Roma gypsies but I did not know there was large travelling communities in so many European countries still. Anti gypsy prejeduice from this thread seems most certainly not isolated to Ireland.
I wonder why goverments seem to have taken such a strong stance against gypsys in the past with anti-gypsy legistion etc? Is there nomad culture a threat to property ownership,work and family structure that Euopean capitalist countries promote?

Im finding this thread really interesting.Despite being from a town that has a large traveller population I am ashamed to say I know little about travellers.

FairFilly

Yes its not to difficult to find media reporting on the Traveller community , whatever takes place in the settled community is much like that in the Traveller community.
A segment of opinion from one section of the Traveller community said the following, -
Pavee Point considers this disturbance a matter for An Garda Siochána, and encourages any person with any information on the events in question to contact Balbriggan Garda Station.
Also-The events in Balbriggan should not be allowed to reflect negatively on the Traveller community in general; like the majority population, the vast majority of Travellers will be appalled by these actions, and will now wish for justice to be done and for peace to return to Balbriggan.

What I struggle with is not the initial report of fighting as it is unsavoury but can be found in all parts of society at various times, & hopefully gets dealt with by the powers that be, no it’s the words of the social care worker,

[social-care practitioner who has worked with and lived alongside the Travelling people for many years. ] If that’s true then they should fully understand that people on the outside will always remain on the outside even if looking in via work.

[While at the project, I happened upon a group of kids talking in a language I had never encountered before] So this person possibly had not much experience of the culture then!

[Despite my familiarity with Travellers, I was, at this stage, totally unaware of their indigenous tongue:] This is showing some very poor remarks by what is supposed to be a experianced professional care worker.
[I recall organising for a group of Travelling children to go to Dublin ]
then says they didn’t turn out,
[we made our way to the virtually empty halting site, only to be told by an elderly man that there was a horse-fair in a nearby village, and everyone had gone to it.]

I find it hard to believe a so called professional care worker who’s committed to working with this community could lack so much basic understanding, in the comments
many fairs/horse fairs are the mane points of contact & socialisation amongst the community ,it forms part of a age old custom when generation & genders get to mix & meet up with others from the community. The language is astounding , it can be heard at gatherings as can Gypsy rokkering but its often frowned up-on to teach it to others outside the community & has been that way for generations, anyone who’s been supposedly living/working with these communities should have grasped some of these basic points.

The general public tend to read or listen to most major media sources ,often agreeing or disagreeing with certain aspects of any news no matter what topic is aired. If the reporting was balanced between good, bad & neutral events, then it carries little effect on the public ,but when reporting is shown to be somewhat bias over a matter or some aspects of society ,then obviously the public get a unbalanced view by no fault of there own.
One of the Irish Traveller organisations shows that media reporting is numbered as follows, Positive reports =47 Neutral reports =62 Negative reports=141 .
The law applies to all people no matter what background they are from , if a crime is committed or a law is broken then action is taken by the authorities to put things rite. Remember the Traveller community faces similar problems & troubles as the settled community, some families or individuals are more troublesome than others, be it a legal site or illegal stopping place most families try to stop with other groups they know, unfortunately sometimes a family or individual pulls on that becomes a problem this usually reflects on the whole site/community ,not so different than one undesirable on a housing estate or block of flats ,that creates similar problems for the settled community.

Overall so far I have little idea as to the Irish press , but would expect it to be not so different than the
GB press , there possibly the biggest anti Gypsy/Traveller reports are by the Sun or Daily mail newspapers .

Only last year the mail had a large article with photo attached showing an unsavoury scene , the truth turns out that even though they sent a reporter to the site no photos were taken , they decided to publish a totally unrelated picture that gave readers a false impression
[,'tip site full of rubbish' that was nothing to do with the story at all] via the press complaints process the photo was removed from later editions that followed but I doubt that removed the initial impressions people got from the other editions ,they never fully explained why a photo so unrelated was chosen from a photo library .Surely no matter what topic/subject the press should be more responsible when deciding to include images that are not of an actual reported event as it must sway the balance.

FairFilly

There are a number of widely recognised similarities , identified & found amongst native Americans, Australian aboriginals & Maori populations ,whos status is in many cases comparable to that of Gypsies/Travellers .
Also similar comparisons are found in the following works, National aboriginal health organisation. Conference on drug related harm April 2004 /
statistics on drug use in Australia [2002] M Hutt[2003]
Maori & alcohol a history ,health service research centre new Zealand .M Lobb [1989] Native American youth & alcohol ,an annotated bibliography .
The Harvard project on American Indian economic strengthening [2004] The context & meaning of family strengthening in Indian America [2004]

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The Holocaust was the implementation of the Final Solution, Hitler's genocidal programme intended to eradicate the genetic contaminants in his plan to create a master race. Only Jews and Romanies were subject to the Final Solution; both peoples lost the same percentage of their total number. Nothing was done to acknowledge the Romani survivors after 1945. The United Nations' decision to exclude Romanies from Holocaust remembrance only perpetuates the marginalization of our people in the historical record.

Ian Hancock
(dzeno)

http://www.dzeno.cz/?c_id=17584

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A recent House of Lords publications of unanswered questions by the Government includes:

Baroness Whitaker to ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have asked the United Nations and its agencies to move the families no longer covered by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees from the camp at Osterode in Kosovo which is contaminated by lead waste. [FCO] HL876

Baroness Whitaker to ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made, bilaterally or through the European Union, to the government of the Czech Republic about any discrimination against its Roma citizens. [FCO] HL877

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The following is only a small extract from a much bigger item by Grattan Puxon.


Gypsy-bashing - acceptable racism?
From Eastern Europe to Basildon ...


UK FAR-RIGHT TAKES LEAD IN
EUROPE'S ANTI-GYPSY FRONT
By Grattan Puxon

Europe's new far-right alliance, bent on Gypsy bashing
from Basildon to Budapest, is taking much of its initiative
from the British National Party. As the front expands, a
spiral of violence against Roma across Europe has
become a sickening certainty.

When the Hungarian Jobbik Party's chairman launched
the Alliance of European Nationalist Movements in
Budapest last month, he read from a manifesto drafted
by BNP leader Nick Griffin. The BNP deputy led an alliance
-building mission to Italy in April, where he was welcomed
with the fascist solute.

Over in the Czech Republic, mirroring its Hungarian
counterpart, a National Guard has been formed and is
terrorizing Romani neighbourhoods. The National Party
has even placed adverts on television calling for a
"final solution of the Gypsy problem."


Not all the far-rights groupings are yet united, far
from it. But the alliance is currently reaching out to
Austria's Freedom Party, and smaller political entities
in Belgium and Sweden. The hope is that together
they can claim substantial EU grants available for
pan-European parties

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The mental age of an average adult Gypsy is thought to be about that of a child of ten. Gypsies have never accomplished anything of great significance in writing, painting, musical composition ,science or social organisation.
[encyclopaedia Britannica [1956] vol .XI,pp43-44 ]

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Anti-Roma racism focused on by report
Author: Joe Cahill
Jan 2nd
Irish Times
The Government needs to review its anti-discrimination laws to better protect the Roma community, which is facing high levels of racism and discrimination.
It should also train all public officials, civil servants and gardaí to refrain from discriminating against this group, according to a new report by the Oireachtas European Affairs Committee.
The report estimates 2,500 – 3000 Roma are living in Ireland, and cites EU research which shows they face widespread discrimination. “The results of an EU-wide survey have shown that only 24 per cent of Irish people would be comfortable having a Roma person as their next-door neighbour and that only 6 per cent had Roma friends or acquaintances….” said Senator Terry Leyden, who wrote the report for the committee
The report criticises comments made by Judge Aingeal Ní Chonduin, who aid Roma raised their children to steal and were responsible for our “shops being robbed blind”, “crime is a universal problem and it not only relates to migrants,” wrote Mr Leyden.
It concludes there is a lack of adequate statistics on the Roma, but notes a “moderate to high rise” in hate crimes perpetrated in Ireland in 2006 – 2007.

Links of intrest.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~racismctee/travellr2.html#90
http://homepage.eircom.net/~racismctee/travellr.html

994

FairFilly wrote: »

Yes you are correct about the big difference between the Australia/USA situation I mentioned ,my point being only that a comparison of all these sets of people are natives in a homeland that for various reasons has forcibly effected traditional lifestyles & culture. They are all populations of minority indigenous people, that have been constantly legislated against for generations yet still try to retain some parts of historical culture that has been taken away little by little

Indigenous people??? So when people came over from Scotland in 10000 BC, Mikey Mac Ward greeted them and tried to sell them some reindeer-fur carpets?
Travellers are not indigenous, they are a social group whose ancestors separated from the mainstream in the last few centuries.