Irish Traveller Culture

Rowley Birkin QC

FairFilly wrote: »

Today in most civilised countries its wrong or /& illegal to call Black people the N word or with Asians etc but in Ireland shops ,pubs & clubs do put out notices saying no Travellers

I have never seen a sign like this, care to cite examples?

TwoBit Tommy

to me travellers are not an ethnic group necessarily different from non travellers. to me ethnicity means that someone is racially different. but i am guessing that the definition of ethnic is broader than racially different in the main sense.

Rozabeez

'Race is nature and ethnicity is nurture; that is, birth characteristics versus cultural heritage.'

panda100

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

I have never seen a sign like this, care to cite examples?

There was a particularly discriminatory Bus Eireann ban in my town last Christmas. I wrote an article about it at the time

"Bus Eireann suspended all bus services through Rathkeale, Co.Limerick throughout the festive season. Rathkeale is a small rural town which has the highest percentage (~30%) of residents in an Irish town who identify themselves as travellers.
http://www.towns-ireland.com/highest-percentage-of-trav...eale/

Bus Eireann refused to stop in the vicinity of Rathkeale during the festive season when there is an influx of travellers returning back to the town. Many of the travelling community return to Rathkeale at Christmas as its their time for weddings,to visit family graves, socialise etc etc. As there is no other transportation system in West Limerick the residents of Rathkeale, were reduced to hitching lift's to the next bus stop (which is 5miles away) out on the busy and dangerous by-pass.

What the locals have to say:
People are not happy," said Seamus Hogan, who has a shop in the town and is a member of the community council. Mr Hogan believes it was the behaviour of young Travellers, many of them home for Christmas, which led to Bus Eireann's decision. "Why should people, like my partner and other regular users be discriminated against?," he demanded. And he is angry that the bus company has made no alternative arrangements for regular passengers. "First they abandon them and then they give them no lifeline," he said, pointing out that people wishing to use the bus now have to go to Newcastle West or Croagh. "It is not acceptable," he continued. He believes Bus Eireann should put a conductor on the buses and insist that no minor be allowed to travel unaccompanied.

What Bus Eireann have to say:
A statement released by Bus Eireann said that "anti-social behaviour by a number of people who are not regular passengers on the service" led to their decision. The Limerick Leader was unable to make contact with a spokesman in order to clarify what exactly had taken place on their buses to bring about this decision.

What the gardia have to say:
"We mount a specific operation each year and there are extra resources in terms of manpower brought into Rathkeale. The purpose of the operation is to ensure all the people of Rathkeale, settled and Traveller, have a peaceful Christmas," said Supt Roe.

Yet, statistically,It is has the lowest crime rates of all the towns in West Limerick?!

Relationships between travellers and the settled community in Rathkeale have always been harmonious and good. In the words of local Fine Gael TD Dan Neville, "Rathkeale is a unique town in the Irish context. Both communities live together with a high level of understanding of each other, friendship and a level of tolerance as there are two cultures in the area. In Rathkeale there are nothing like the difficulties that are experienced in other places where there are sizeable Traveller communities. One does not hear of flashpoints, riots or anything like those problems. Rathkeale is a peaceful town and the crime rate is low."

However, with an unusual and unnecessary gardai presence brought into Rathkeale this Christmas along with the withdrawal of Rathkeale's only transportation system being blamed unfairly on young travellers, The travelling community in Rathkeale for the first time is experiencing divisions and tensions that it never had before with locals. "

Rowley Birkin QC

panda100 wrote: »

There was a particularly discriminatory Bus Eireann ban in my town last Christmas. I wrote an article about it at the time

A statement released by Bus Eireann said that "anti-social behaviour by a number of people who are not regular passengers on the service" led to their decision. The Limerick Leader was unable to make contact with a spokesman in order to clarify what exactly had taken place on their buses to bring about this decision.

Dublin Bus did the same thing due to anti-social behaviour in Dublin suburbs in 2006 so there is nothing "particularly discriminatory" against travellers here.

Still haven't seen an example of what FairFilly was referring to.

FairRawny

I hope you will permit me to start by apologising for the time it takes me to post, personally my time is limited & the internet time I get has to be shared between various websites , some of that is in relation to the long & ongoing Dale Farm situation now in its seventh year ,that’s a Traveller site in England mostly populated by Irish Travellers & some British Gypsy’s totalling several hundred people who all face eviction by Constant bailiffs who’s past record shows they have been allowed to ignore safety procedures & the destruction of private property has gone unchecked. Basildon Primary Care Trust doctors talk of the inevitable trauma and injuries that will occur again by these people being the bailiffs An eviction DVD about the meadowlands site gives some idea as to the terror instilled in children in particular by the use of riot police . So far I have seen very little about this in Irish media but feel that if this was any other group of settled Irish in Britain, then some ongoing coverage would be aired.

When I wrote I possibly never explained the actual situation very well. It surprises me not that many haven’t seen such signs they are not littering doors & windows of commercial premises like the January sale signs 24 /7 & I never meant to give that impression.
The problem is complex but improving, the best time to see this is during the build up to an event or during the event itself, the main events would be the major horse fairs & street fairs then other times can be during the influx of new Travellers to a area ,also in localities hosting big Traveller weddings or funerals . The signs are usually either hand written with something like a marker pen or printed from a computer .
The usual place of display is on a door or window sometimes on a widow ledge internally with words something like Travellers not served/admitted etc.

The problem is difficult for me to explain but is based on the given situation, its not realistic during very busy events to expect the police force to have much time to act if such things are reported to them, also comes the burden of proof in that its not easily possible to prove who posted a sign , the business owner, staff ,regular customers or someone trying to cause a situation. Mobile phones with cameras & video devices have been used , again it’s a minefield as it only shows the message nothing more & in all fairness is not much use for evidence. The other problem is the change in Irish law that basically allows a landlord/publican to refuse service to customers if its for the interests of said person ,his clientele or business .A simple example is as in UK when some refuse all football supporters or alternatively only serve one teams supporters because to have both sets of fans in the same bar is obviously a recipe for disaster.
I have little knowledge of Irelands sports supporters to know how likely it could be. If you are a QC or involved within the profession then with a few discrete enquires should soon show you that prosecutions over signage is a difficult process when compared to other such problems. I doubt most reports never get to a legal stage & often are submitted/filed as refusals not signage.& for most people its enough to only make the report, not wanting to get involved any further.
Whatever the instance as is documented the law in this country for Travellers is not a clear cut issue.

To say you or others have not seen this problem is little surprise , if driving a long motorway journey we don’t take in fully every sign that’s seen but we do tend to look for the ones that are directed at our journey or destination , To be in a fair town that’s
heaving with people , livestock, traders ,stalls & traffic its easily possible many things go unnoticed or not recognised for what they are. Things are changing & hopefully at some future point no such matters will arise be that deliberate, accidental .Traveller organisations & Traveller Support Movements are getting better at recording, reporting & following up many of the situations that were once not monitored.
A number of posts talking or commenting of these sign problems,
[no Gypsy’s/No Travellers signs Ireland] were on Gypsy/Traveller sites & message boards [from Sep 23 2008, Mar 20 2009 Nov 7 2008,]
&[ bbc seeing signs in pubs and shop windows that said no Gypsies allowed.Yeh! Happy memories?Thu Jan 2009 ]
]http://z10.invisionfree.com/Traveller_chat/index.php?act=idx
[ Gypsy prevention signs saying no Travellers on public houses & other public facility’s, Discrimination & race relations 153 Greenfields 04]
[55Noted by night & king no Gypsy’s served or door signs no Gypsy’s 2000]
[Anti-Gypsy signs crackdown
Mrs Dunn said a group of Gypsy women reacted to a similar sign in Ireland by simply sitting in the pub talking for hours until the landlord relented and served them.
[BBC news Tuesday, 4 May, 2004,]


Overall, forty-two interviews were completed. Twenty-five of these were with Irish Travellers; nine with members of criminal justice agencies; six with non-Traveller members of Traveller support agencies; one with a non-Traveller working for a voluntary agency and one with a priest working in a prison in the South. Criminal justice agencies were invited to participate in order to redress the obvious deficit of existing knowledge concerning the Traveller Community and to enable comparison between the experiences and perceptions of Travellers and official policy responses. Interviews were semi-structured using a list of extensive open ended questions. Questions were developed in consideration of information gleaned from the existing literature review. In the main, these related to nomadism and anti-trespass laws; obstacles in access to employment; access to services and goods such as shops, pubs, restaurants and leisure centres and the outcomes of complaints regarding such issues; knowledge of human rights; views upon media representation of Travellers; the criminalisation of Travellers; stop and search by police; complaints against police practice; incarceration; drug use and risk of offending; access to solicitors, and allegations of feuding
[University of Ulster
09]

FairRawny

[ Following From NCCRI Reports & Equality Authority]

[The situation of Travellers in Ireland and how they experience discrimination. Individuals, when recognised as Travellers, are sometimes arbitrarily refused entry or access to public places or services such as: shops, pubs, restaurants, laundries, leisure facilities and such like. Individuals often experience verbal or physical abuse because of their identity. Individual Travellers have also reported incidents of insurance companies refusing to provide them with motor insurance cover.


Travellers who wish to avail of supplementary welfare in Dublin have to accept a 'special' segregated service
NCCRI Report
This report does not seek to provide a comprehensive list of every racist incident in Ireland, indeed the evidence from other countries tends to show that with all racist incidents reporting systems, there is likely to be significant under-reporting of incidents.
In a small number of instances those involved in or reporting the incident only want the incident to be logged by the NCCRI, with no further action taken. These requests have been respected.

Some Gardai were reported as being dismissive or indifferent to people making complaints or being reluctant to consider the possibility of the incident as being racist.

22 incidents of Travellers being denied access to public houses and hotels over the Christmas period reported to the NCCRI

Equality Authority
and cancellation of bookings
Misinformation and the circulation of offensive material.


20 Traveller families living in a temporary site near Laytown, County Meath were attacked during the night by a person driving agricultural machinery. Their trailers were covered with effluent from the spray unit and there was substantial damage to their property.

Romany family co kerry ,subject to hostility at place of residence such as go home refugee & property damage

November 03 homless traveller family were protested against by settled community including placard stating residents in-travellers out

December 03 co clare Traveller site was attacked & left with knackers out/keep the filth out messages

October 04 a call for a removal of barrier that was preventing Travellers from entering finglas village

Irish examiner reported on private sector discrimination in co kerry with complaints by Travellers that pubs,clubs & supermarkets banning them
05

The newly-established European Monitoring Centre for Racism and Xenophobia, in co-operation with the Council of Europe, needs to undertake a special initiative to address the specific forms of racism experienced by Roma/Gypsy/Travellers. The Centre needs to be able to provide reliable and comparable data at European level on the causes of this racism and how it impacts on Roma/Gypsies/Travellers in relation to: freedom of movement, employment and economic activity, media portrayal, education, training, social inclusion, civic engagement, and cultural identity.]
[All above from NCCRI reports]

Griffing travellers suport group regarding a blanket ban on by pubs in co mayo
April 03

Numerous figuers for travellers who had been refused certain goods or been refused admision or event cancelled by the Survey: Because I'm a Traveller
Equality Authority
Discrimination at the individual level is most common when Travellers seek access to any of a range of goods, services and facilities, to which access is denied purely on the basis of their identity as Travellers.]



[Feb 6th
Evening Herald
A couple who claimed their wedding day was ruined when a publican reneged on their reception plans, have settled a €38,000 damages claim for breach of contract.]


[Irish Times
24 jan The mayor of Galway Cllr Pádraig Conneely has apologised on behalf of the people of the city to former Olympic boxer Francis Barrett over his treatment at a nightclub earlier this week. Mayor Conneely said that Mr Barrett was an “international figure” who had “brought great pride to the city, and he was very
disappointed to hear he had been refused access to a hostelry earlier this week.”]

[aug14
Irish Sun Page 7
COUSINS of Olympic boxing hero John Joe Nevin have told how they were left in tears after their wedding plans were scuppered at the last minute. Newlyweds Hugh and Joanne Nevin say they were SHUNNED by hotels and pubs just like champion John Joe because they are Travellers.]

[jul22
Irish Times Page 3
A Co Mayo hotel has been found guilty of discrimination against a member of the
Traveller community by the Equality Authority]


[Travellers were subjected to an organised physical attack in Glenamaddy, Co. Galway, for having the cheek to drink in one of the few pubs that served them. This pub has since lost its licence as a warning to other publicans not to serve Travellers.
http://struggle.ws/rbr/travrbr2.html
Nan Joyce, in the general election of 1982. She ran against the straightforwardly racist 'community' candidate who stood on a ticket of Get the Knackers out of Tallaght .

The protests against Travellers in Tallaght were threatening and violent affairs. Leaflets were distributed in the doors advising men to leave women and children at home and to bring hurley sticks.
No Travellers were physically attacked ]


Irish Travellers are an indigenous minority or ethnic group who make up less than 1% of the population in Ireland.
University of Limerick

FairRawny

The following is only a small part of the work that explains things far better than I can .
Independent Researcher, Derry, McVeigh
The Case of the Government of Ireland Against Irish Travellers

Travellers do not appear to fall within the definition of racial discrimination’
Broadly, therefore, we find the Republic of Ireland in a deeply anomalous situation in which the current President, the current Taoiseach, the Departments of Health and the National Action Plan Against Racism say that Travellers are an ethnic group that experiences racism while the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform say that they are not an ethnic group. Moreover we find the Government position in direct contradiction to the position of its own Equality Authority
If a group is not an ethnic group, if it does ‘not appear to fall within the definition of racial discrimination’, then how can it possibly experience racism?
no ethnicity means no racial discrimination & means no racism.

With regard to racism, however, it is also important to note that the experience of prejudice and discrimination by Irish Travellers appears broadly similar to the experience of prejudice and discrimination of different ethnic groups whose ethnicity is uncontested in the context of Mandla v Lee as well as other anti-racist legislation. If the reality of anti-Traveller racism is accepted, it seems very difficult to construct, even theoretically, a case against Traveller ethnicity.
Submission of the Irish Government to CERD which stated that:
Irish Travellers [population 24,000] are an indigenous Irish community with a shared history of a nomadic way of life and cultural identity. Some of the bodies representing Travellers claim that members of the community constitute a distinct ethnic group
(Government of Ireland 2004: 90).
Travellers are the largest indigenous minority, with approximately 24,000 people, representing 0.6% of the population (2005: 28).


In short, the Irish government policy on Traveller ethnicity is both perverse and discriminatory. This has immediately negative consequences for Irish Travellers. They are not afforded the automatic protection of international and regional standards on ‘race’ provided to Irish Travellers in Northern Ireland or Great Britain – this is directly contrary to commitments on equality given in the Good Friday Agreement, the EU Race Directive and the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. In particular, ethnicity denial in the Republic of Ireland appears to completely undermine these protections in a context in which Irish Travellers have been mainstreamed in all of the equality legislation and mechanisms which emerged from the GFA in Northern Ireland - including Section 75 and the work of the Equality Commission Northern Ireland.

While some individuals may continue to insist that Travellers are not an ethnic group, this position is rarely presented in a tangible form in the public domain, let alone grounded in research or analysis. In short, it is necessary to search fairly hard to find academic research or other informed opinion that argues that Irish Travellers are not an ethnic group.

Irish governments commision stated Travellers of indigenous origin
[rci:34.39]

Equality Authority
July 2006
They are not permitted to enter many public houses and public houses where they are served are avoided by many of the settled population


An appendix to the report discussed initiatives taken to combat discrimination against Travellers and stated:


“Irish Travellers (population 24,000) are an indigenous Irish community with a shared history of a nomadic way of life and cultural identity. (2004: 13)
(2004:90)

Seaghán Ó Murchú • 24 November 2005
In this anthropologically based collection of academic studies, Irish Travellers: Culture & Ethnicity, I found, in my long-desired if elusive (at least from me) secondhand copy, valuable information about 'indigenous commercial nomads' (aka 'tinkers' as formerly known by many;


Gypsies, tramps and thieves
We'd hear it from the people of the town
They'd call us gypsies, tramps and thieves
But every night all the men would come around
And lay their money down
[Cher Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves]


Was only one small song about a part of the Gypsy/Traveller world today most youngsters listen to a wide range of music no different than settled people but in Britain at most large fairs or events is country & western that dominates by a long way .Many can & do sing very well & play a variety of instruments ,sometimes a session is of older more traditional music & dance & its been noted by some how the Traveller/Gypsy culture as helped keep it alive.
In some places they hold Gypsy/Traveller talent contests for all ages.
Gypsy’s don’t really feature in big movies much & possibly the best known is Snatch a favourite for many in the community a Irish movie Pavee Lackeen is well worth a look for a small incite to some aspects of life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavee_Lackeen_(film)

http://anlarfilms.com/v2/

jojowho

so intersting....

Dr Strange

jojowho wrote: »

so intersting....

Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion? Otherwise, please refrain from commenting. Thanks.

Amtmann

Haven't read the whole thread.

I actually got to know some Travellers a few years ago while working for a company and have maintained a friendship with them over the past seven years. These girls live as settled people, and have done so since they were babies. This does not lessen their status as Travellers in their own eyes.

When I was first introduced to them, I didn't know they were Travellers. Some gossipy co-workers revealed that information to me on the quiet, half expecting me to ignore the girls after I'd found out. But I didn't ignore them; instead, I carried on before. They didn't know that I was aware that they were Travellers. I was really interested in asking them about it, but the time never seemed 'right'. It was clear that they weren't open to discussing it. After about a year an opportunity arose and I started a conversation with them about them being Travellers. They were astonished that I knew, found my method of broaching the topic very funny, and then we carried on our friendship as before. They asked me not to tell other people, saying that it was not something they wanted broadcasted, and I respected that.

It's quite funny actually that after we'd all left that company and got jobs in different places and met new people, none of the 'new friends' ever knew (and still don't know, in fact) that they are Travellers. Whenever someone mentions Travellers or "Knackers" in a conversation, they always look over at me and smile.

For what it's worth, neither of them think they belong to a separate ethnic group, and both feel as Irish as anyone. They are both quite adamant, in fact, that they are not ethnically different.

FairRawny

Its taken me some time to decide on replying to this but after much thought I will add the following & that is yes some Travellers do bit by bit slide into the mainstreem if it works more often than not old connections become ever more distant & given enough time generation by generation they are not the same as the REAL Travellers not because they are kenicks,buffers [house dwellers] but because of it being very difficult to live in two worlds at the same time in the same place & be accepted by the two worlds.
In that post I belive it to be true as its written that basically these girls worked in a place alongside the settled community ,its mentioned of exchanged looks when Travellers or derogatory terms are mentioned but the secrets kept safe its not openly revealed by the girls of the community they are from but its also said certain people in the works did in fact mention that they were Travellers regardless of them trying to disguise the fact .
Not how the settled people live at work unless with a dark secret to hide so it reads like they were living life partly as a lie or at the least not being able to be true to themselves of heritage.
I don’t think anyone could find hardly one Irish Traveller who doesn’t believe themselves to be as Irish as anyone few will want to live a life for long & hide the facts of who they are & most are rightly Proud to be Travellers & wont hide these facts for long because its denying themself the family ,heritage etc.
This interweb available every where even on mobile phones , young Gypsys/Travellers make much good use of this staying in contact with friends & family whatever the location & making new friends & contacts with this is the escalation of what many of the youngsters feel at roots LOUD N PROUD be that Romany or Traveller its much like the world of American or British Blacks they took the N word turned it about face in songs & street talk so what was insulting is now common use by themselves .

Derogatery terms used against Gypsy/Travellers are being turned about & used the same .
This is the way of the younger breed

Yσυя иσт α gуρѕу вє¢αυѕє уσυ ∂σ gуρѕу тнιиgѕ,
Yσυя иσт α gуρѕу вє¢αυѕє уσυ ωєαя σνєя ѕιzє∂ яιиgѕ,
Yσυя иσт α gуρѕу вє¢αυѕє σf ωнєяє уσυ ¢αll нσмє,
Yσυя иσт α gуρѕу вє¢αυѕє уσυ ∂σи'т σωи α ρнσиє,
Yσυя иσт α gуρѕу вє¢αυѕє уσυ gєт ιитσ fιgнтѕ,
Yσυя иσт α gуρѕу вє¢αυѕє уσυ lινє σи α ѕιтє.
Tнєяєѕ σиlу σиє ωαу ιf уσυя α тяυє gуρѕу,
Tσ lσσк αт уσυ fαмιlу αи∂ ѕαу ωнαт уσυ ѕєє,
Bє¢αυѕє α gуρѕу ιѕи'т αвσυт ιf уσυ lινє ιи тнє мυ∂!
A gуρѕу ιѕ Aвσυт нανιиg тнє яιgнт вlσσ∂!


My TRAVLLER PRIDE
I WILL NOT HIDE
MY TRAVLLER RACE
I WILL NOT DISGRACE
MY TRAVLLER BLOOD
FLOWS HOT &TRUE
MY TRAVLLER PEEPS
I WILL STAND BY U
THRU THICK & THIN
TILL THE DAY WE DIE
OUR TRAVLLER FLAG
ALWAYS STANDS HIGH
I YELL THIS POEM
LOUDER THAN ALL THE REST
COZ EVERY 1 KNOWS
TRAVLLERS R THE BEST!!!
TRAVLLER PRIDE IN MY MIND
TRAVLLER BLOOD IS MY KIND
SO STEP AND LET ME THROUGH
COZITS ALL ABOUT THE TRAVELLING CREW

FairRawny

Anyway getting back to the more original points asked at the start of the thread ,heres a link for people to read & consider to themselves for there own reasons .It is a ongoing online petition by

The Irish Traveller Movement to ,
Recognise Traveller Ethnicity. If you read it & know of anyone who would be interested to read it please send them a link.it’s a free choice for Travellers & settled people to either sign or not .

Recognise Traveller Ethnicity
Presents policies to local, national and international statutory bodies and agencies and any other bodies that it considers appropriate which would alleviate the hardships Travellers face

Promotes the adoption and implementation of Human Rights Standards in relation to Travellers as outlined in relevant United Nations, E.C. and Council of Europe conventions, declarations, covenants and charters
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/itmethnicity/signatures?page=1

The Irish Traveller Movement (ITM) is calling on the Irish Government to recognise Travellers as an ethnic minority group. Catherine Joyce, chair of the ITM said: “Ethnic status would provide greater protection of Travellers cultural independence under law. This would include official recognition of Traveller culture in the provision of housing, education, health services. For example, nomadism would have to be properly catered for in housing provision. It also would have implications in terms of ensuring Traveller representation in the political system. Furthermore, there is also an important symbolic meaning of Traveller Culture becoming validated as both distinct and valued within Irish society.”

Niall Crowley, CEO of the Equality Authority, said the Authority would sign the Irish Traveller Movement’s petition and added that "the definition of Travellers needs to be more widely articulated in national policy and programmes if Travellers are to achieve full equality in practice across all areas of policy and provision."

Amnesty International also agreed to sign the petition and promote it. Executive Director of Amnesty International’s Irish Section Colm O’Gorman said: "Amnesty International fully endorses this petition and we urge our members and supporters to join the campaign".
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/itmethnicity/

Yes i did

denisedxx

As a Traveller i believe that we are an ethnic group, although the goverment has not recognised it yet, and gammon shelta and cant are words used to describe the same language, its name varies depending on where your from. hope this was helpful to your its nice to see people taking an interest in our culture and giving us an opportunity to reply and erased some myths perhaps !

denisedxx

As a Traveller i believe that we are an ethnic group, although the goverment has not recognised it yet, and gammon shelta and cant are words used to describe the same language, its name varies depending on where your from. I hope this was helpful to you, its nice to see people taking an interest in our culture and giving us an opportunity to reply and erased some myths perhaps ! As for becoming less of a Traveller if you live, work, or are friends with the settled community I believe this for me completley untrue. I live in a settled estate 40 houses and i have 3 children we are still the Travellers were always were. I still have the same beliefs and traditions as always and i'm proud of them. When we first moved in we didnt say that we were Travellers for two reasons first i thought that if some of the other residents knew that there was a Traveller family moving in that maybe the would petiton against us. Second they dont have to explain their heritage to me nor do I to them. I wanted them to get to know my family and I first and if they didnt like me for the person i am i could be ok with that, but i didnt want people to judge me on my ethnicty/culture. After a few months i told some of my friend and they were great nothing has change between us except for the fact that they seem to be more open to Travellers now and less warey than before.

dermothickey

well spoken Denise... You speak from the Heart about the realities of being from the travelling community.

Ostrom

denisedxx wrote: »

As a Traveller i believe that we are an ethnic group, although the goverment has not recognised it yet, and gammon shelta and cant are words used to describe the same language, its name varies depending on where your from. I hope this was helpful to you, its nice to see people taking an interest in our culture and giving us an opportunity to reply and erased some myths perhaps !

At what level are they spoken? Is it just a few works or do people use it in conversation?

Also, anyone catch the documentary on RTE 1 earlier?

spannerotoole

Racism toward travellers exists because some travellers put this label on themselves. It appears so that some of them can play the race card. As happened to me when I defended myself from a mugger who happened to be a traveller. I had no way of knowing he was a traveller, but I pushed him to the ground in self defence. He said it was because he was a traveller.

I would not condone any culture that encourages this kind of behaviour, a culture that takes children out of school because the parents don't want them associating with settled people (non traveller). This is why racism towards travellers exists.

It seems to say "We are not Irish, We are travellers and we want more rights." but democracy doesn't work like that.

I have heard of anti-traveller laws (like the anti-tresspass law) which personally I don't find racist at all, because it applies to all people, whether or not they are travellers.

A lot of people will see this post as racist because they read it wrong.
In reality, this statement comes from a neutral perspective.

In reality, it seems that some travellers are racist towards settled non traveller people.

For any travellers reading this post, If you live by the law and you and your family don't go around annoying other people, then there is no issue with you.

But if your kids are harassing other people, or going out doing illegal things, then discipline them.

FairRawny

Racism toward travellers exists because some travellers put this label on themselves. It appears so that some of them can play the race card. As happened to me when I defended myself from a mugger who happened to be a traveller. I had no way of knowing he was a traveller, but I pushed him to the ground in self defence. He said it was because he was a traveller .So it couldn’t have been a guy from the settled population just saying that, to help try getting himself out of a fix. Who he was & what he did is very wrong by any standards but one persons not a whole community no matter what creed.

I would not condone any culture that encourages this kind of behaviour, a culture that takes children out of school because the parents don't want them associating with settled people (non traveller). This is why racism towards travellers exists.
Not exactly the full story or reasons why eductation is how it is.

It seems to say "We are not Irish, We are travellers and we want more rights." but democracy doesn't work like that. No I don’t see them saying there not Irish, as stated many times before no matter what part of the world the Irish Travellers remain as true to Irish origins as anyothers if not more so.

I have heard of anti-traveller laws (like the anti-tresspass law) which personally I don't find racist at all, because it applies to all people, whether or not they are travellers.
Except it effects the Traveller/Gypsy community far more ,the constant legistlation making one type of traditional life extremely difficult while not following through on site or housing obligations.

A lot of people will see this post as racist because they read it wrong.
In reality, this statement comes from a neutral perspective.
As indicated before at this time its not really possible to be racsist in Ireland against
the Traveller population.

In reality, it seems that some travellers are racist towards settled non traveller people.
In truth the Traveller population is of a minority in number with varying attitudes & opinions held by individuals not so different from any population.


For any travellers reading this post, If you live by the law and you and your family don't go around annoying other people, then there is no issue with you.
For any person living in Ireland the same should be said.

But if your kids are harassing other people, or going out doing illegal things, then discipline them. Same for should be said of everyone in Ireland particularly as the total population of children is made up from far greater numbers in the settled community.

Independent Researcher, Derry, McVeigh
The Case of the Government of Ireland Against Irish Travellers

Travellers do not appear to fall within the definition of racial discrimination’
Broadly, therefore, we find the Republic of Ireland in a deeply anomalous situation in which the current President, the current Taoiseach, the Departments of Health and the National Action Plan Against Racism say that Travellers are an ethnic group that experiences racism while the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform say that they are not an ethnic group. Moreover we find the Government position in direct contradiction to the position of its own Equality Authority
If a group is not an ethnic group, if it does ‘not appear to fall within the definition of racial discrimination’, then how can it possibly experience racism?
no ethnicity means no racial discrimination & means no racism.

In short, the Irish government policy on Traveller ethnicity is both perverse and discriminatory. This has immediately negative consequences for Irish Travellers. They are not afforded the automatic protection of international and regional standards on ‘race’ provided to Irish Travellers in Northern Ireland or Great Britain – this is directly contrary to commitments on equality given in the Good Friday Agreement, the EU Race Directive and the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.
In particular, ethnicity denial in the Republic of Ireland appears to completely undermine these protections in a context in which Irish Travellers have been mainstreamed in all of the equality legislation and mechanisms which emerged from the GFA in Northern Ireland - including Section 75 and the work of the Equality Commission Northern Ireland.

The Irish Traveller Movement to ,
Recognise Traveller Ethnicity. If you read it & know of anyone who would be interested to read it please send them a link.it’s a free choice for Travellers & settled people to either sign or not .

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/itmethnicity/signatures?page=1

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/itmethnicity/

The newly-established European Monitoring Centre for Racism and Xenophobia, in co-operation with the Council of Europe, needs to undertake a special initiative to address the specific forms of racism experienced by Roma/Gypsy/Travellers. The Centre needs to be able to provide reliable and comparable data at European level on the causes of this racism and how it impacts on Roma/Gypsies/Travellers in relation to: freedom of movement, employment and economic activity, media portrayal, education, training, social inclusion, civic engagement, and cultural identity.]
[All above from NCCRI reports]

FairRawny

For Traveller Women In Ireland, Life Is Changing
DAVIA NELSON and NIKKI SILVA

Helen Connors , who is part of a Traveller family, says she started school when she was 4 years old. But the community didn't take Traveller girls very seriously — and she says she was called a "knacker" and a "pikey."
text size A A A April 29, 2010
Travellers, "the people of walking," are often referred to as the Gypsies of Ireland. Mistrusted for the most part, their traditions and lifestyle are not well understood within the larger culture. Historically, they were nomads who moved in caravans and lived in encampments on the side of the road. Their tradition as "tinkers" or tinsmiths, and as the breeders and traders of some of Ireland's best horses, goes back hundreds of years.

As times change in Ireland and the notions of private and public space change and contract, the culture no longer accepts the Travellers on public and private lands and has begun to create "halts" where they can settle.

Helen Connors, 21, lives in Hazel Hill, a new government experiment in Traveller housing on the lower slopes of Dublin Mountain, with her husband and two children.

"Travellers got their name because they're so fond of traveling around the world in a caravan," she says. "They'd have their wagons and their horses. You'd see them along the roadside. You could be in Dublin today; you could be in Cork tomorrow. That's how Travellers got their name. We call you 'settled people.' "


"Travelling girls don't really mix much with settled girls," says Shirley Martin, a 23-year-old mother of three. "The way of living, caravans, by the side of the road. A come and go thing. My family is a Travelling family."

Life In School Hard For Travellers

There are similarities between Traveller and Romany Gypsy culture, but Travellers do not define themselves as Romany, says Mary Burke, associate professor of Irish literature at the University of Connecticut.

For many generations, Travellers — the nomadic, indigenous Irish minority — provided services to an Ireland that was predominantly agricultural: seasonal farm labor, tinsmithing, horse-trading, hawking, music and entertainment.


EnlargeGerry O'Leary
The Irish government is experimenting with housing for Travellers — the Gypsies of Ireland — on the lower slopes of Dublin Mountain. The houses are called "halts." Today, the majority of Travellers either live in houses permanently or live in houses at certain times of the year.
In the early days Travellers moved from place to place with horses and carts. British Romany introduced Travellers to wagons. The wagons were overtaken by caravans, and the caravans were overtaken by mobile homes. But today the majority of Travellers either live in houses permanently or live in houses at certain times of the year.

"But that doesn't mean that prejudice or identity disappear when they settle in houses," Burke says.

Connors started school when she was about 4 years old. She says the community didn't take educating Traveller girls very seriously.

"I didn't learn very much in school because I was bullied a lot," Connors says. "You were a 'knacker' or a 'pikey.' That's all you'd hear every day. You'd be in trouble nearly every day for fighting. If I said to the teacher, 'I can't do that; can I have some help?' she'd say, 'Here's paper; just go down to the back of the class and draw whatever you want.' I had one teacher that said to me, 'Well, a Traveller won't do nothing with their life. Why would you want to know how to read and write? You're going to go off and marry young and have loads of children.' So I was just put down to the end of the class and everyone else was up on top."

Because school in Ireland is set up for kids who live in a house year-round, Burke says, a cultural attitude developed toward Traveller kids who moved around a lot for not being capable of — or interested in — learning.

"And that carries over into today," Burke says.

Traveller Girls Marry Young

Traveller families are especially strict with girls, according to Martin.

"Some mothers and fathers is too strict where you wouldn't be allowed to go anywhere," she says. "This is why most Travelling girls get married young, because they want to get away from that. Travelling girls, most of them today would be 16, 17,
18, which will want marriage."

Tell Us Your Stories
This year, NPR and The Kitchen Sisters will bring you stories of girls and the women they become. You can follow them on Twitter by going to @kitchensisters. You can send suggestions to our listener comment line at (202) 408-9576.
We want to hear from you — Click Here For Instructions
The girls travel in a pack, promenading.

"They look very glamorous," Burke says. "Lot's of makeup and heels and long hair."

Terry McCarthy, 16, was recently married.

"When I was 13, I met my husband at a festival," she says. "And the minute I met him, I knew I was in love. I got engaged when I was 15. I had a big do for that. I had a big engagement party. Just went from there then. I got married last month. I had a lovely big huge white dress."

"Whatever you want on your wedding day you have to get," Connors says. "When I got married, I got to design my own wedding dress — my dream dress. It had a 50-foot train. It was all diamonds and lace. Travellers, too, they have a mini-bride. That's a girl you just dress up to look just like yourself for the day. Your mini-bride has to look like you."

Theresa Hughes and daughter Jennifer have been sewing wedding dresses for Traveller girls for more than 10 years.

"The Travelling community, they come over to us to get their outfits made for going to weddings — even the mothers and grannies want bling," Theresa says. "Thick pink satin, sequins, beads, glitter. They go all out."

Jennifer shows off a white miniskirt with beads on it.

"I just go all out; I go for extremes," she says. "I kind of used Elvis as an inspiration — Elvis' white Lycra suit, the flared one that he wears to his last concert."

There is a lot of money involved in Traveller weddings, both in terms of substantial dowry payments and in terms of putting on a good show.

Traveller Women Gain Power


As women age in Traveller culture, they gain power. They often outlive the men. They can become matriarchs in the culture, particularly if they have a large family. And there's prestige attached to being the mother of many.



Shirley Martin, 23, a resident at Hazel Hill, says that Traveller families are especially strict with girls — and that's why they marry young.

"When I was a kid, the Travellers, they used to come around our houses making pots and pans and doing odd jobs," says Paul Connelly, the caretaker of the Hazel Hill halting site. "And in return for that, they may get milk and bread and potatoes. People will not tolerate Travellers living on the side of the roads now. It's dangerous for themselves. The country's trying to get them settled. Set up halting sites and trying to get them to live in them."

Traveller life has changed, Helen Connors says.

"My mother and father had 17 children — nine boys and eight girls," she says. "Myself, I left school when I was 11, but then I started a trainer course where I learned how to read and write. Then I did a child care course, and I passed all my exams. Now I can read and write what I never learned in school. I learned it by myself. Travellers are speaking up for themselves and being heard."

Produced by The Kitchen Sisters (Davia Nelson and Nikki Silva) in collaboration with Dublin producer, Nuala Macklin; mixed by Jim McKeenpr.org

[Full item]
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125907642&ps=cprs

Cjoe

I have read through this thread looking to be moved from my view that there is no traveller culture. I also watched a show about them on TV3 on 04/05/10. Im still lost as to Traveller culture. Nobody has put down in black and white what this culture is. A woman mentioned on the show in response to the young woman getting married "this is our culture". Getting married at 18 is not a seperate cultural trait.
To be honest I dont believe there is a Traveller culture. There is a Traveller way of life just like there is a fishermans way of life or an inhabitant of one of the aran islands way of life. I do feel Travellers live differentley to many people but they are not in my opinion an ethinc group in any shape or form. Alot of customs they have are old catholic traditions. Teling stories and singing are great talents to have but once again they do not make you ethnicly or culturally different to the average Irish man or Woman.

Some travellers have great IRISH traditions such as singing, trad music playing, story telling etc but they are no different to any other irish person. And that is exactly it. They are Irish people. Nothing more nothing less. And the sooner Travellers realise that and stop playing the "Racism, Ethnic Minority" cards the sooner peoples views will change and the better the relationships will be amounst both travellers and non travellers alike.

T-Square

WindSock wrote: »

Would you consider them as an ethnic group? I am confused by how many different languages they have. Gammon, Shelta and Cant. What are the differences, and which is the main one?

They are not an ethnic group.
Ireland speaks two languages officially, 1/ English 2/ Irish

We don't entertain any "ethnic" group / we have our own creole, type m'larkey.

FairRawny

Im from British Romany Gypsy background ,that’s obviously not Irish Traveller ,I don’t belive in the thought police , if you know what I mean ,like the British government forbidding any of the police forece from being members of the BNP, its not that I like them but it just dosent fully add up ,people see things how they do , think & belive how they do ,its not like you can say don’t think that & it stops. I am sure lots of people who read this thread don’t think or want to belive the Travellers are a separate culture .Times will always change & views constantly change ,the majority tend to rule no matter what .
Traveller talk runs a little like Romani Jib or Rokkering I only know a little of Traveller talk compared to the Jib ,Perhaps in some high & mighty quarter it is determined that Ireland only has the 2 languages of English & Irish , perhaps such bodies declare England only has English but the fact is at street level many tongues are spoken some are old dialects while others are that of large immigrant populations.
Today in Ireland id guess that the Polish still all talk plenty in there own tongue sure a
government mite not acknowledge it but its still real.The same as its unrealistic to think the true depths & insights into a culture like Gypsy/Travellers can be fully revealed on the interweb ,its scratching the surface & hopefully intresting for everyone who reads the thread but a few hundred words is no substitue for generations of heritage that’s mostly kept away from mainstream.its nothing new theres plenty of old books recording it.But its only a window giving a view of some aspects ,hopefully thats a good start for everyone.

Tesco Ireland Ltd pay Ms McDonagh
www.equalitytribunal.ie/uploadedfiles/Decisions/DEC-S2001-016.PDF

www.equalitytribunal.ie/uploadedfiles/Decisions/DEC-S2001-016.PDF

FairRawny

The United Nations keeps an atlas of languages facing extinction, and U.N. experts as well as linguists generally agree that a language will probably disappear in a generation or two when the population of native speakers is both too small and in decline. Language attrition has also been hastened by war, ethnic cleansing and compulsory schooling in a national tongue.

full article linked newyorktimes 29/4/2010
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/nyregion/29lost.html


French government found to be in violation of the Revised European
Social Charter in relation to Housing Conditions of Travellers in France*

In a recent decision with regard to the collective complaint taken by the
European Roma Rights Centre against France (ERRC v. France (no. 51/2008)),
the European Committee of Social Rights held that the French government was
in violation of the effective right to housing of Travellers leading to
social exclusion and discrimination. Amongst the violations were: failure to
create a sufficient number of stopping places, poor living conditions and
operational failures at these sites, lack of access to permanent housing and
unjustified violence during eviction from stopping places.

The Irish Traveller Movement Law Centre, together with researcher Anna de
Paor, is currently researching for a similar complaint to be filed against
the Irish government for violations of the European Social Charter. The
complaint will be filed by the same organisation (the ERRC) that took the
complaint against France.

Read the full Decision on the Merits here:
http://www.coe.int/T/DGHL/Monitoring/SocialCharter/

spannerotoole

FairRawny wrote: »

For Traveller Women In Ireland, Life Is Changing
DAVIA NELSON and NIKKI SILVA

Helen Connors , who is part of a Traveller family, says she started school when she was 4 years old. But the community didn't take Traveller girls very seriously — and she says she was called a "knacker" and a "pikey."
text size A A A April 29, 2010
Travellers, "the people of walking," are often referred to as the Gypsies of Ireland. Mistrusted for the most part, their traditions and lifestyle are not well understood within the larger culture. Historically, they were nomads who moved in caravans and lived in encampments on the side of the road. Their tradition as "tinkers" or tinsmiths, and as the breeders and traders of some of Ireland's best horses, goes back hundreds of years.

As times change in Ireland and the notions of private and public space change and contract, the culture no longer accepts the Travellers on public and private lands and has begun to create "halts" where they can settle.

Helen Connors, 21, lives in Hazel Hill, a new government experiment in Traveller housing on the lower slopes of Dublin Mountain, with her husband and two children.

"Travellers got their name because they're so fond of traveling around the world in a caravan," she says. "They'd have their wagons and their horses. You'd see them along the roadside. You could be in Dublin today; you could be in Cork tomorrow. That's how Travellers got their name. We call you 'settled people.' "


"Travelling girls don't really mix much with settled girls," says Shirley Martin, a 23-year-old mother of three. "The way of living, caravans, by the side of the road. A come and go thing. My family is a Travelling family."

Life In School Hard For Travellers

There are similarities between Traveller and Romany Gypsy culture, but Travellers do not define themselves as Romany, says Mary Burke, associate professor of Irish literature at the University of Connecticut.

For many generations, Travellers — the nomadic, indigenous Irish minority — provided services to an Ireland that was predominantly agricultural: seasonal farm labor, tinsmithing, horse-trading, hawking, music and entertainment.


EnlargeGerry O'Leary
The Irish government is experimenting with housing for Travellers — the Gypsies of Ireland — on the lower slopes of Dublin Mountain. The houses are called "halts." Today, the majority of Travellers either live in houses permanently or live in houses at certain times of the year.
In the early days Travellers moved from place to place with horses and carts. British Romany introduced Travellers to wagons. The wagons were overtaken by caravans, and the caravans were overtaken by mobile homes. But today the majority of Travellers either live in houses permanently or live in houses at certain times of the year.

"But that doesn't mean that prejudice or identity disappear when they settle in houses," Burke says.

Connors started school when she was about 4 years old. She says the community didn't take educating Traveller girls very seriously.

"I didn't learn very much in school because I was bullied a lot," Connors says. "You were a 'knacker' or a 'pikey.' That's all you'd hear every day. You'd be in trouble nearly every day for fighting. If I said to the teacher, 'I can't do that; can I have some help?' she'd say, 'Here's paper; just go down to the back of the class and draw whatever you want.' I had one teacher that said to me, 'Well, a Traveller won't do nothing with their life. Why would you want to know how to read and write? You're going to go off and marry young and have loads of children.' So I was just put down to the end of the class and everyone else was up on top."

Because school in Ireland is set up for kids who live in a house year-round, Burke says, a cultural attitude developed toward Traveller kids who moved around a lot for not being capable of — or interested in — learning.

"And that carries over into today," Burke says.

Traveller Girls Marry Young

Traveller families are especially strict with girls, according to Martin.

"Some mothers and fathers is too strict where you wouldn't be allowed to go anywhere," she says. "This is why most Travelling girls get married young, because they want to get away from that. Travelling girls, most of them today would be 16, 17,
18, which will want marriage."

Tell Us Your Stories
This year, NPR and The Kitchen Sisters will bring you stories of girls and the women they become. You can follow them on Twitter by going to @kitchensisters. You can send suggestions to our listener comment line at (202) 408-9576.
We want to hear from you — Click Here For Instructions
The girls travel in a pack, promenading.

"They look very glamorous," Burke says. "Lot's of makeup and heels and long hair."

Terry McCarthy, 16, was recently married.

"When I was 13, I met my husband at a festival," she says. "And the minute I met him, I knew I was in love. I got engaged when I was 15. I had a big do for that. I had a big engagement party. Just went from there then. I got married last month. I had a lovely big huge white dress."

"Whatever you want on your wedding day you have to get," Connors says. "When I got married, I got to design my own wedding dress — my dream dress. It had a 50-foot train. It was all diamonds and lace. Travellers, too, they have a mini-bride. That's a girl you just dress up to look just like yourself for the day. Your mini-bride has to look like you."

Theresa Hughes and daughter Jennifer have been sewing wedding dresses for Traveller girls for more than 10 years.

"The Travelling community, they come over to us to get their outfits made for going to weddings — even the mothers and grannies want bling," Theresa says. "Thick pink satin, sequins, beads, glitter. They go all out."

Jennifer shows off a white miniskirt with beads on it.

"I just go all out; I go for extremes," she says. "I kind of used Elvis as an inspiration — Elvis' white Lycra suit, the flared one that he wears to his last concert."

There is a lot of money involved in Traveller weddings, both in terms of substantial dowry payments and in terms of putting on a good show.

Traveller Women Gain Power


As women age in Traveller culture, they gain power. They often outlive the men. They can become matriarchs in the culture, particularly if they have a large family. And there's prestige attached to being the mother of many.



Shirley Martin, 23, a resident at Hazel Hill, says that Traveller families are especially strict with girls — and that's why they marry young.

"When I was a kid, the Travellers, they used to come around our houses making pots and pans and doing odd jobs," says Paul Connelly, the caretaker of the Hazel Hill halting site. "And in return for that, they may get milk and bread and potatoes. People will not tolerate Travellers living on the side of the roads now. It's dangerous for themselves. The country's trying to get them settled. Set up halting sites and trying to get them to live in them."

Traveller life has changed, Helen Connors says.

"My mother and father had 17 children — nine boys and eight girls," she says. "Myself, I left school when I was 11, but then I started a trainer course where I learned how to read and write. Then I did a child care course, and I passed all my exams. Now I can read and write what I never learned in school. I learned it by myself. Travellers are speaking up for themselves and being heard."

Produced by The Kitchen Sisters (Davia Nelson and Nikki Silva) in collaboration with Dublin producer, Nuala Macklin; mixed by Jim McKeenpr.org

[Full item]
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125907642&ps=cprs

Well that's brilliant, but it's all too clear that you don't actually understand the english language.

"Some mothers and fathers is too strict" should be 'are too strict'.
If you could get the grammar right then I might be able to take you seriously. If you talk like that, it doesn't help.

maxxie

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

No. I don't want people responding to certain points he raised in his post.

Also, please don't derail the thread further by questioning moderation again.

seig heil mein fuhrer

charlemont

i dont mean this as smart but my friend who is a traveller once said to me in a discussion..you have settled people , travelling people but knackers can be from any group...our definition of a knacker would be the thieving violent type which is in every race or culture .. travellers are mostly grand people, but i dont think they are a separate:cool: group

spannerotoole

charlemont wrote: »

i dont mean this as smart but my friend who is a traveller once said to me in a discussion..you have settled people , travelling people but knackers can be from any group...our definition of a knacker would be the thieving violent type which is in every race or culture .. travellers are mostly grand people, but i dont think they are a separate:cool: group

Odd because I was told by more than one traveller that the term knacker is a murderer of horses. and because a lot of them deal with horses they shouldn't be labelled as such

Ostrom

spannerotoole wrote: »

Well that's brilliant, but it's all too clear that you don't actually understand the english language.

"Some mothers and fathers is too strict" should be 'are too strict'.
If you could get the grammar right then I might be able to take you seriously. If you talk like that, it doesn't help.

Lovely. There was no need for that.

spannerotoole

The whole point is that she said that they have education now.
But they fact that there are multiple grammar errors in the statements about education proves to be somewhat ironic.

If you are going to say that you are educated, then at least get the grammar right. Especially when you're talking about reading and writing.