The way forward for LC2021

Wombatman · 14-01-2021 5:24pm

Treppen wrote: »

You ll get a skewed bell curve by simplifying. There will be basically no way to apply a proper bell curve once you over simplify or add too much choice.
If questions are over simplified or given extra choices you can't mark those H1s down , once they're 100% correct you can't take it away.

As much as I give out about the dept. I think the SEC really know their stuff when it comes to tweeking the bell curve with questions and marking schemes. They've been fine tuning for decades by adjusting one or two points in the marking scheme to get the curve right.

The flip side of that is the experience in the exam for the student. They know when an exam is going poorly. This could be due to inadequate material coverage because of Covid and closures. They won't be thinking, at that point in time, that the bell curve is going to turn their 60% into a 75%, for example, because everyone is likely to underperform. At that point in time, they are going to have a sick feeling in their gut and are likely to panic.

Wouldn't like to see this happening.

deiseindublin · 14-01-2021 5:28pm

Treppen wrote: »

You ll get a skewed bell curve by simplifying.

Yes Treppen, I'm agreeing. Give some more choice as they have done, and just run the exams.

I keep telling my LC about the bell curve as a way to reassure that really it's irrelevant what changes or doesn't change, just do them and stats don't change year to year, unless it's 2020 of course.

mirrorwall14 · 14-01-2021 6:30pm

Without content reduction and not just choices there is huge pressure on teachers and students to finish courses. Some course adjustments seem better thought out than others.

Maths adding a question doesn’t really help shorten the course as the papers don’t have set questions and you don’t know what those questions will be in. It’s not as straightforward as ‘I’ll leave this chapter out’. Adding extra choice to the Irish music essays does help a little though as the essays don’t include multiple tops (generally).

Music made no substantial adjustments to the composing paper for example which is the longest paper to teach, needs constant practise and is a very summative paper. The teacher and student needs to get the whole way to the end of the content or risk the whole question being un-answerable. Considering they had homeschool from March to May and now for a fourth month of their run to leaving cert I think that’s harsh to leave unadjusted

TheValeyard · 14-01-2021 6:32pm

I've a feeling a greatly reduced leaving cert will take place

History Queen · 14-01-2021 6:49pm

Correspondence from SEC to schools today:

Please see for your attention some important information from the SEC in light of the recently announced period of school closure until 31 January 2021. This situation will be kept under review in light of the Covid-19 situation.

1. Coursework
You will be aware that prior to the Christmas break, the SEC published important information (Circular S64/20) in relation to exceptional arrangements for the completion and authentication of Coursework for Leaving Certificate and Junior Cycle candidates in 2021 owing to COVID 19. The purpose of the circular was to assist and support schools and candidates in relation to the completion of coursework by providing as much flexibility as possible for students and schools, while maintaining the integrity and fairness of the assessment process. The circular set out flexibility in the arrangements for completion and authentication of coursework owing to Covid related absences of either individual candidates or of the class teacher impacting on full class groups. The arrangements in the circular due to interruptions to learning related to COVID, up to Christmas, still stand and will remain in place once schools reopen. There is no change to the exceptional provision made for exemptions from coursework for students under the Adapted Education Provision and applications can be made to the SEC for these noting that this application date is being extended to 26 February.

In light of the recent school closure the following should be noted by reference to Circular S64/20:

In relation to Category 1 coursework, which can be completed by candidates at home, subject to appropriate oversight, it is in schools’ and candidates’ best interests to seek to make progress with the completion of this work over the period of the school closure. While the SEC will allow some additional time for the completion of this work generally by candidates, which will be reflected in the formal completion dates, the SEC believes that it should not be necessary to extend the completion dates to fully take account of the closure period, and indeed it would not be in candidates’ best interests, in terms of managing their time for completing the course, to seek to push out these dates many of which do not arise until late March/April.

The coursework completion dates for all Category 2 coursework, which requires attendance at school for completion, will be extended to take account of the period of the school closure. Details of the extended completion dates in individual subjects will issue from the SEC in due course but schools and candidates should be reassured that this additional time will be provided.

In particular, students due to complete their Design and Communication Graphics coursework by the 15th January should be notified that this date will be extended to take account of the time period between the school closure and the completion date; that is, all students will have an additional 8 days to complete their DCG coursework from the date on which schools reopen.

The SEC had already advised schools that the submission date for Physical Education – Physical Activity Project and the Leaving Certificate Economics coursework, both of which had completion dates in late December 2020, would be extended to mid-January to allow time for the finalisation of the digital system (SEC Schools Portal) to allow schools to upload this digital coursework to the SEC. The Schools Portal will be ready to accept this coursework from the 8 - 12 February inclusive.

As noted in circular 64/20, schools will continue to have flexibility in relation to coursework completion, including by reference to any extended dates, based on local circumstances.

Queries related to coursework should be directed by email to practicals@examinations.ie or by phone to 090 644 2867.

2. RACE Applications
The closing date for the submission of Junior Cycle RACE applications is 22 January. To enable school authorities to complete the application process including any necessary testing with students, this date is being extended to Friday 26 February. Queries related to RACE Applications should be directed to race@examinations.ie or by phone to 090 644 2781.

3. Leaving Certificate Applied February Tasks.
The SEC had provided schools with a provisional start date for the assessment of the LCA Tasks of Monday 1 February. The arrangements for the optimum timing of these assessments to take account of the period of school closure is currently under review by the SEC. Further information will be provided to schools in due course. Meanwhile, the SEC will be issuing schools with the turnaround documents for completion to facilitate arrangements for the assessment of the tasks in due course. Teachers should continue to support their students in the completion of these tasks while engaging in remote learning. Queries related to LCA should be directed to lca@examinations.ie or by phone to 090 644 2725.

4. Entries 2021
Following the collection of data from schools via the Department of Education through the October returns process, the SEC would, under normal arrangements, provide schools at this time of year with individual Leaving Certificate entry forms (E7 forms) for completion by students. As part of its digital strategy, for the 2021 examinations, the SEC will be asking candidates to confirm their own entry data online through the Candidate Self Service Portal. It is intended that the portal will open for this purpose in mid-February. Candidates will be asked to create their own account and will need their examination number in this process. The SEC will shortly be issuing schools with a matrix of Leaving Certificate candidate entries displaying the 2021 examination numbers and will be seeking the assistance of schools in providing these number to candidates. It is intended that the examination number matrix will be in schools next week. Schools will be asked to confirm the entry data submitted by candidates through a turnaround process in due course. The Junior Cycle entries process will operate as normal through the E8 entry form process and these forms will issue in February. Queries related to Entries should be directed to entries@examinations.ie or by phone to 090 644 2702.

5. Planning for examinations
Planning for the 2021 examinations is underway by the State Examinations Commission (SEC) and the Department of Education with this work being assisted by an advisory group of key stakeholders including representatives of students, parents, teachers, school leadership and management bodies, the SEC, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Education, including the National Educational Psychological Service. The advisory group has been considering the possible arrangements for completion of the various components of the 2021 examinations in the context of the challenges presented by Covid-19. The advisory group will consider all of the various issues arising in relation to the holding of the 2021 examinations, including public health considerations and appropriate contingency measures. As this work is continuing, the SEC is not yet in a position to issue the detailed timetables and schedules of key dates for the forthcoming examinations.

Further information on all of these matters will issue in due course.

rainbowtrout · 14-01-2021 7:03pm

Wombatman wrote: »

The flip side of that is the experience in the exam for the student. They know when an exam is going poorly. This could be due to inadequate material coverage because of Covid and closures. They won't be thinking, at that point in time, that the bell curve is going to turn their 60% into a 75%, for example, because everyone is likely to underperform. At that point in time, they are going to have a sick feeling in their gut and are likely to panic.

Wouldn't like to see this happening.

That happens students every year in the exam without a pandemic in the background.

The Leaving Cert has always been stressful. This year's crew are going to get some shock in college when they have to sit exams and the college won't care if they've missed time or not.

amacca · 14-01-2021 7:30pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That happens students every year in the exam without a pandemic in the background.

The Leaving Cert has always been stressful. This year's crew are going to get some shock in college when they have to sit exams and the college won't care if they've missed time or not.

Exactly...the system does way too much hand holding and various other associated enabling when it comes to stress...im convinced it amplifies it in an increasing cohort by pandering to it, by system I mean media, parents and teachers to some extent although the latter two are nearly pressured into it...even more so with the way things are going....its no preparation for the university of life and very counter productive imo

They are going to have to deal with life....school is increasingly becoming some sort of Mary poppins parallel reality where if you are a student everyone tidies up your mess except you.

What's next a virtual exam stress simulator before you do the mocks ....sometimes in fact nearly all the time the best approach is rip the band aid off and get on with it.

mirrorwall14 · 14-01-2021 7:36pm

Aaaaand no reference to music practicals again. They have been thoroughly sticking their head in the sand regarding singing performance all bloody year

Wombatman · 14-01-2021 8:28pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That happens students every year in the exam without a pandemic in the background.

The Leaving Cert has always been stressful. This year's crew are going to get some shock in college when they have to sit exams and the college won't care if they've missed time or not.

Maybe so, but we are talking about the students who haven't have the opportunity to complete their two year LC course because THERE IS A PANDEMIC IN THE BACKGROUND. We are discussing how this exceptional situation should be dealt with. Any ideas?

rainbowtrout · 14-01-2021 9:50pm

Wombatman wrote: »

Maybe so, but we are talking about the students who haven't have the opportunity to complete their two year LC course because THERE IS A PANDEMIC IN THE BACKGROUND. We are discussing how this exceptional situation should be dealt with. Any ideas?

ya, and they are ALL in that position.

Let's look at this illogically......

Leaving Cert students roaring for a cancellation on Twitter all day today. Let's say Norma gives them what they want. Well, so no student can try and influence their teachers, we would have to down tools now in the middle of January. What are the Leaving Cert students going to do between January and June?

And what are teachers going to grade them on? Last year they finished attending school in March. There was online teaching for 7 or so weeks with variable engagement until the Leaving Cert was cancelled on May 8th, one month before it was due to start.

The bulk of the practical projects would have been completed at that stage, while orals and music practicals didn't take place the prep work would have been done at that stage as we only finished up school a few weeks before they were scheduled. Teachers had a lot of information to go on.

This year what would they have??? The first seven months of fifth year and the first four months of Leaving Cert?

Coupled with the fact that the predicted grades let to serious inflation of grades across the board. Do you honestly think they wouldn't go even higher this year?

There are going to be attitudes out there like 'Jaysis, I chanced my arm at giving the two H1s in French last year, normally I'd be lucky to get one, and neither was downgraded, shure lookit, might as well stick down three this year and see what happens'. That will happen.

You also have a situation where students want both predicted grades and a chance to sit the exams. Have their cake and eat it more like. It worked relatively well this year because they were more or less finished their courses last year, so were in a position to sit the exams in November.

If they down tools now, with almost half an academic year left, how would they be in any position to sit exams in June?

mirrorwall14 · 14-01-2021 10:02pm

Just to be clear, I am adamantly against predicted or calculated grades of any shape or form. Hell no.

But I do think there need to be broader changes to the length of content etc needing to be finished for papers. At least both my subjects, can’t speak for others. And I feel in both those subjects the difficulty can still be easily done to keep a bell curve just without the students having quite so much content to revise.

For example, composing could have had no upbeat in the melody question. The question can still be difficult, compound time, rests, dynamics etc but without the extra weeks of practise needed for upbeats

Similarly in maths, be more explicit say there will be 6 short questions on 8 specific areas listed. Students and teachers can then actually skip one chapter.

Is it ideal for maths in college? No. Does that matter for a pandemic year? No

Is it a middle ground predictive grade nonsense and keeping almost exactly the same papers? Yes in my opinion

rainbowtrout · 14-01-2021 10:25pm

I'd agree mirrorwall.

I would say some subjects written papers are impacted more than others. There is generally quite a lot of choice on the science papers (physics, chemistry, biology) anyway, and more questions were added in those guidelines. I personally don't think there needs to be an adjustment there. But in subjects where several parts of a course are integrated into one question like maths, it makes it trickier. Particularly when those papers normally don't have any choice on them.

Maybe I could borrow Norma's pearls and use them to say a few decades of the rosary that the Dept don't capitulate on this. It does look to be going ahead for now, and I don't see why not based on the fact that we were in school as normal in October with 1200 cases a day. No reason cases can't be brought under control by June.

micks_address · 15-01-2021 12:26pm

i know quite a few kids who didnt engage with schools at all last year once school from home started. Leaving cert kids.. school contacted parents who had no idea they weren't logging on... they had a discussion about it and the child felt they could revise/learn better on their own so that was agreed.. once calculated grades were announced they down tools and did nothing.. i think the issue for this years group is how to keep them engaged unless you hold the threat of physical exams over them till may and then go ah well.. we doing calculated grades anyway... the counter argument is you are needlessly stressing kids who are second guessing that decision is coming regardless.

i think its quite easy to say exams can be held safely in june.. but its the whats been missed between this year and last that's the debate

rainbowtrout wrote: »

ya, and they are ALL in that position.

Let's look at this illogically......

Leaving Cert students roaring for a cancellation on Twitter all day today. Let's say Norma gives them what they want. Well, so no student can try and influence their teachers, we would have to down tools now in the middle of January. What are the Leaving Cert students going to do between January and June?

And what are teachers going to grade them on? Last year they finished attending school in March. There was online teaching for 7 or so weeks with variable engagement until the Leaving Cert was cancelled on May 8th, one month before it was due to start.

The bulk of the practical projects would have been completed at that stage, while orals and music practicals didn't take place the prep work would have been done at that stage as we only finished up school a few weeks before they were scheduled. Teachers had a lot of information to go on.

This year what would they have??? The first seven months of fifth year and the first four months of Leaving Cert?

Coupled with the fact that the predicted grades let to serious inflation of grades across the board. Do you honestly think they wouldn't go even higher this year?

There are going to be attitudes out there like 'Jaysis, I chanced my arm at giving the two H1s in French last year, normally I'd be lucky to get one, and neither was downgraded, shure lookit, might as well stick down three this year and see what happens'. That will happen.

You also have a situation where students want both predicted grades and a chance to sit the exams. Have their cake and eat it more like. It worked relatively well this year because they were more or less finished their courses last year, so were in a position to sit the exams in November.

If they down tools now, with almost half an academic year left, how would they be in any position to sit exams in June?

rainbowtrout · 15-01-2021 1:12pm

micks_address wrote: »

i know quite a few kids who didnt engage with schools at all last year once school from home started. Leaving cert kids.. school contacted parents who had no idea they weren't logging on... they had a discussion about it and the child felt they could revise/learn better on their own so that was agreed.. once calculated grades were announced they down tools and did nothing.. i think the issue for this years group is how to keep them engaged unless you hold the threat of physical exams over them till may and then go ah well.. we doing calculated grades anyway... the counter argument is you are needlessly stressing kids who are second guessing that decision is coming regardless.

i think its quite easy to say exams can be held safely in june.. but its the whats been missed between this year and last that's the debate

It's the parent's responsibility to check what their child is up to. Teachers got a lot of flak last year for not engaging online. I know that there were some that didn't, but I would say most made an effort. Nothing was said about the students that just couldn't be arsed and gambled on the Leaving Cert being cancelled.

The argument is, 'the poor students are stressed and can't sit a leaving cert when they missed 3 months of fifth year' The bell curve can be adjusted on the exam results to reflect this. That's actually the easy part. But the notion that it should all be cancelled because they missed 3 months last year, so they should not bother completing the last 5 months this year is madness. That would only be completing 1 year of 2 years of the Leaving Cert cycle.

Cancelling now will impact their ability to keep up with their courses in college. Then they'll be whinging that they weren't taught properly in school. They need to buckle down and get on with it.

There is a far better understanding of what can and can't be achieved now. We are coming up on a year of living with covid. The necessary logistical arrangements can be put in place for exams.

micks_address · 15-01-2021 1:24pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's the parent's responsibility to check what their child is up to. Teachers got a lot of flak last year for not engaging online. I know that there were some that didn't, but I would say most made an effort. Nothing was said about the students that just couldn't be arsed and gambled on the Leaving Cert being cancelled.

The argument is, 'the poor students are stressed and can't sit a leaving cert when they missed 3 months of fifth year' The bell curve can be adjusted on the exam results to reflect this. That's actually the easy part. But the notion that it should all be cancelled because they missed 3 months last year, so they should not bother completing the last 5 months this year is madness. That would only be completing 1 year of 2 years of the Leaving Cert cycle.

Cancelling now will impact their ability to keep up with their courses in college. Then they'll be whinging that they weren't taught properly in school. They need to buckle down and get on with it.

There is a far better understanding of what can and can't be achieved now. We are coming up on a year of living with covid. The necessary logistical arrangements can be put in place for exams.

Absolutely agree logistics will be no issues this year. I think there is probably quite a disparity in what could be delivered during those three months last year. Our school is full iPad since day one so they had probably as close to ideal situation as possible. Excellent broadband and their own space for work and study etc. I don’t think you could generalise and say everyone had the same experience. I do think it’s easy to be dismissive about stress but I can see our son is bothered about it. He’s not the type to worry about it much but every day there’s a new headline about this or that in relation to schools and leaving certs. Im sure he will be fine either way if there’s actual exams or not but I don’t envy his situation

rainbowtrout · 15-01-2021 1:50pm

I think they just have to get on with it. If Norma capitulates and gives them what they want, all they learn from that is if they whinge enough they'll get what they want even if it's not the right course of action. Also a valuable lesson for them to learn would be that not everything in life is easy or fair, and in the situation they are responsible for themselves and should try to do the best they can in that situation.

Treppen · 15-01-2021 3:13pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Just to be clear, I am adamantly against predicted or calculated grades of any shape or form. Hell no.

But I do think there need to be broader changes to the length of content etc needing to be finished for papers. At least both my subjects, can’t speak for others. And I feel in both those subjects the difficulty can still be easily done to keep a bell curve just without the students having quite so much content to revise.

For example, composing could have had no upbeat in the melody question. The question can still be difficult, compound time, rests, dynamics etc but without the extra weeks of practise needed for upbeats

Similarly in maths, be more explicit say there will be 6 short questions on 8 specific areas listed. Students and teachers can then actually skip one chapter.

Is it ideal for maths in college? No. Does that matter for a pandemic year? No

Is it a middle ground predictive grade nonsense and keeping almost exactly the same papers? Yes in my opinion

Phrasing is the one great divide between the H1H2 and H3H4H5. If they got rid of the upbeat and put in a minor+6/8 I think you'll open the fence too wide for more to get into the top tier. And as we know from many many rants it's the Melody question the generally divides the H1's and H2's.

It was a little bit sneaky but they've cunningly made the harmony question a little bit more difficult in terms of limiting the starting line to Max 3 bars, thus again making it a phrasing exercise to see if they can follow down the cadences, whereas before with 4 bars on the opening line it was a dead cert that there was a cadence at the end of every line. Maybe they wont put an upbeat into the Melody question in the end (just to keep teachers happy), but bump it into the Harmony questions. Now that would be cruel :pac:

am_zarathustra · 15-01-2021 5:57pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think they just have to get on with it. If Norma capitulates and gives them what they want, all they learn from that is if they whinge enough they'll get what they want even if it's not the right course of action. Also a valuable lesson for them to learn would be that not everything in life is easy or fair, and in the situation they are responsible for themselves and should try to do the best they can in that situation.

There is also basic information that is expected in courses with required subjects. in most subjects choice can be given, my current class hate one unit in my subject, with the current approached course they could almost, but not quite leave it out of revision....a little extra choice would mean I could say they could leave it, they'd be delighted, so would I. I can see for music though how decisions need to be made very quickly, it almost seems the worst subject to try and alter.

I have to say the constant media bleeting is the issue for lots of kids, and pressure at home. I just keep telling them they'll be fine, lots of choice.....no worries. I'm in a DEIS school and. Averaging 80/90% attendence in love classes for leaving cert So I think the divide their speaking of is not as pronounced as they might think. We had a good remote learning platform, kids had been trained, notes/papers/books were collected or delivered and anyone who needed a device was given one. There is more work in making sure they have the actual stuff they need but we all knew it this could happen and DEIS schools would be on a much better position this year than they were last year and should have a working list of who had issues previously.

mirrorwall14 · 15-01-2021 7:30pm

Treppen wrote: »

Phrasing is the one great divide between the H1H2 and H3H4H5. If they got rid of the upbeat and put in a minor+6/8 I think you'll open the fence too wide for more to get into the top tier. And as we know from many many rants it's the Melody question the generally divides the H1's and H2's.

It was a little bit sneaky but they've cunningly made the harmony question a little bit more difficult in terms of limiting the starting line to Max 3 bars, thus again making it a phrasing exercise to see if they can follow down the cadences, whereas before with 4 bars on the opening line it was a dead cert that there was a cadence at the end of every line. Maybe they wont put an upbeat into the Melody question in the end (just to keep teachers happy), but bump it into the Harmony questions. Now that would be cruel :pac:

That’s true but I think if they put in a rest or mid phrase break they’d get away with narrowing the field a bit even without the upbeat.

Don’t give anyone from the SEC who reads boards that suggestion Jesus..... lol

I think the harmony question at least Q5 has gotten substantially harder over the years to be honest. Some of the chord progressions are just outright odd. I’m still considering moving question.

Treppen · 15-01-2021 8:43pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

That’s true but I think if they put in a rest or mid phrase break they’d get away with narrowing the field a bit even without the upbeat.

Don’t give anyone from the SEC who reads boards that suggestion Jesus..... lol

I think the harmony question at least Q5 has gotten substantially harder over the years to be honest. Some of the chord progressions are just outright odd. I’m still considering moving question.

Ya the Q4 was a always a bit more subjective as the Treble had to be marked the same as a melody question. Where as Q5 it was a bit more algorithms and rules for chords... and bass was basic enough. What gets me is all these potential suspension, anticipation notes and syncopations in the Q5, feel like I'm in that movie Whiplash trying to figure it out under pressure.

Rosita · 16-01-2021 1:25pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Maybe I could borrow Norma's pearls and use them to say a few decades of the rosary that the Dept don't capitulate on this. It does look to be going ahead for now, and I don't see why not based on the fact that we were in school as normal in October with 1200 cases a day. No reason cases can't be brought under control by June.

Hard, at face value, to argue with your point that "based on the fact that we were in school as normal in October with 1200 cases a day", things should be well under control by June.

You'd imagine even by normal linear progression achieved in previous periods of enhanced restrictions (I don't see it as a lockdown in the original sense so try to avoid the term) you'd think that we might even hit those sort of figures by end of the month.

However, I do notice a change in the mood music recently. Last week Minister Foley was metaphorically kicking and punching the ground during a TV interview in her determination to say "schools are safe" as often as possible. But this has softened in recent days.

The Taoiseach on TV yesterday (think it was yesterday - days all blur into one at this stage) was not as bullish about schools or as "passionate" about education as he usually is. I get the impression that maybe they see trends and have concerns about variants that they are not being very candid about publicly.

But like I have said before an inability of government to communicate effectively and get away from cover-my-ass-at-all-costs-and-say-nothing speak is their greatest weakness. It is allowing others to dictate the trend of the conversation.

rainbowtrout · 16-01-2021 1:52pm

They might have also realised finally that the public are not buying the 'schools are safe' rhetoric anymore.

mirrorwall14 · 16-01-2021 1:58pm

The schools are safe is driving me mad. No one ever said schools were safe without the stipulation that ‘schools are safe while community transmission is low’. Norma seems to have tried to equate these. They are VERY different

am_zarathustra · 17-01-2021 7:48pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

Nobody has said it but surely if the bell curve does what it's supposed it's less relevant how much is cut from the syllabus, or how much choice is given.

I've an LC in the house this year so I'm hanging on to that anyway. Would prefer for my child, and my students, that the exams went ahead. Yes, it's tough for them, but it's fair.

Tried to respond to PM but you have no space for new messages! Not a problem, I've lots of stuff, I'll try tomorrow to respond!

Bobtheman · 19-01-2021 11:40am

Where are we exactly with school openings? No agreement on special schools? Why can't the vaccine be given to those teachers as a priority?
Why wasn't childcare issue not sorted by now? Essential workers and childcare has been a red flag for months.
When will schools open??

TheValeyard · 19-01-2021 12:19pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Where are we exactly with school openings? No agreement on special schools? Why can't the vaccine be given to those teachers as a priority?
Why wasn't childcare issue not sorted by now? Essential workers and childcare has been a red flag for months.
When will schools open??

Piff. You and your common sense questions.

micks_address · 19-01-2021 12:29pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Where are we exactly with school openings? No agreement on special schools? Why can't the vaccine be given to those teachers as a priority?
Why wasn't childcare issue not sorted by now? Essential workers and childcare has been a red flag for months.
When will schools open??

what still baffles me is how the dept will come out and declare schools opening without full agreement from everyone. Then it proceeds to fall apart in a %hit show in the following days annoying everyone in involved

Treppen · 19-01-2021 12:53pm

micks_address wrote: »

what still baffles me is how the dept will come out and declare schools opening without full agreement from everyone. Then it proceeds to fall apart in a %hit show in the following days annoying everyone in involved

Maybe that's their plan. Just keep announcing (without agreement) and unions have to keep saying no. Then in a few months time history will be revised to say it was all unions fault.
Kind of like the "unions sold out younger teachers" idea.

History Queen · 19-01-2021 1:07pm

Treppen wrote: »

Maybe that's their plan. Just keep announcing (without agreement) and unions have to keep saying no. Then in a few months time history will be revised to say it was all unions fault.
Kind of like the "unions sold out younger teachers" idea.

Oh God please don't reopen that can of worms.

micks_address · 19-01-2021 1:13pm

Treppen wrote: »

Maybe that's their plan. Just keep announcing (without agreement) and unions have to keep saying no. Then in a few months time history will be revised to say it was all unions fault.
Kind of like the "unions sold out younger teachers" idea.

Seems very divisive on the special needs front. i think the challenge is schools that don't have dedicated special needs units. How do you manage which teachers come in and manage which classes.. then you have teachers/sna's with underlying health conditions that don't want to mix with other people.. then you have parents of some kids with needs who want to keep them at home and others who need a break and help with their kids.. its very hard to sort it out..

rainbowtrout · 19-01-2021 1:30pm

micks_address wrote: »

Seems very divisive on the special needs front. i think the challenge is schools that don't have dedicated special needs units. How do you manage which teachers come in and manage which classes.. then you have teachers/sna's with underlying health conditions that don't want to mix with other people.. then you have parents of some kids with needs who want to keep them at home and others who need a break and help with their kids.. its very hard to sort it out..

Well there's been a lot of controversy about who is getting the spare vaccines in hospitals, something that will run and run for the next few months I'd imagine. Mainly cos nothing is done right in this country without some wheeling and dealing in the background. I do think it's right to use up the vaccines instead of wasting them, but surely there can be a waiting list that if you have vaccinated everyone in the nursing homes in the area and all the hospital staff that you then move down the list and start doing some of the other essential workers. Wouldn't be too hard to have started giving a few people the vaccine that they want to go back into special schools, particularly if they are in the high risk category.

French Toast · 19-01-2021 2:19pm

Got word today that a few of our LCs are really struggling.

The cynic in me would have previously said LCs will just have to toughen it out and keep working but when you see genuine, hardworking students getting dismayed you definitely feel for them.

rainbowtrout · 19-01-2021 2:27pm

French Toast wrote: »

Got word today that a few of our LCs are really struggling.

The cynic in me would have previously said LCs will just have to toughen it out and keep working but when you see genuine, hardworking students getting dismayed you definitely feel for them.

Our principal cancelled our mocks yesterday. Talking to my Leaving Certs they didn't really want that. They asked if I would run a mock when they went back to school - which I don't have a problem doing. They figure, it's either practice for the real thing, or some evidence for predictive grading.

History Queen · 19-01-2021 2:29pm

French Toast wrote: »

Got word today that a few of our LCs are really struggling.

The cynic in me would have previously said LCs will just have to toughen it out and keep working but when you see genuine, hardworking students getting dismayed you definitely feel for them.

Absolutely, the constant back and forth on social media, newspapers, television and the airwaves cannot be helping them.

Why the Department cannot make a clear statement including an outline of contingency measures is beyond me. It's almost as if they are playing for it to be called off. It's a disgrace.

banie01 · 19-01-2021 2:44pm

French Toast wrote: »

Got word today that a few of our LCs are really struggling.

The cynic in me would have previously said LCs will just have to toughen it out and keep working but when you see genuine, hardworking students getting dismayed you definitely feel for them.

Not a teacher, but I am both a Uni student and a parent of a 5th year student.

From a personal and albeit 3rd level standpoint.
We moved online in March and I've currently run through 10 modules of online learning.
Of those, only 1 lecturer took on board feedback from the Spring semester and really engaged and improved his entire module content for the Autumn.
The other 9 modules were recorded asynchronous lectures and of zero practical value.
It's a firm belief of mine that asynchronous lectures really kill the collegiate in college.
Exams were wholly abandoned, moved to either essay or continuous assessment, with a couple of modules finished off with an open book exam open for 24hrs.

I've been employed by my Uni as a peer support tutor and 2nd and 3rd yr students are struggling and 1st yrs are being supported but are adrift.

Balance that approach versus the drive to ensure that the annual set of pressurised limited time exams are run "as normal"?
Normal for the next exam cycle and quite honestly the 22 LC is gone and trying to keep it is only adding to the anxiety of students and likely teachers too.
Truncated curriculum, poor online experience of course content and delivery, connection and technology issues all are playing a part in ensuring an imperfect and stressful learning environment.

My Son is a bright, ambitious and engaged student.
More of his classes are moving to synchronous lectures, currently @50%.
The school is working incredibly hard to keep as close to in-school scheduling and normality as possible.
It has tweaked and changed as it has worked through the 1st 2 weeks of online this time around.
That said, some teachers really have taken the opportunity to push the self directed learning trope to the absolute limit.

Too many models and delivery methods are in play.
Consistency across the delivery of any learning experience is vital and whilst many teachers are doing their utmost.
The need for uniformity in curriculum delivery and even teaching standards, surely means that further concessions to the realities of the current learning environment are made?

djr15 · 19-01-2021 2:50pm

Biggest issue here as i see it is the Govt/Dept/Unions should have got together last September and set out a road map of a solution which would work in both a disrupted scenario like we have but also one where the school year was unaffected.

That didn’t happen and now it’s a mess to sort out.

The reality is online classes are not happening right across the board, even more so in disadvantaged areas (second hand info) and thus there is no way the exams can go ahead.

Bare in mind this years leaving certs have been affected worse than last years group as they will have had two years of school disrupted.

History Queen · 19-01-2021 2:53pm

Can somone who would like to see predicted grades happen please outline how they envision that happening? I'm vehemently opposed to them BUT I appreciate that I may be coloured by my experience with them last year. Are people who call for predicted grades able to outline how they could work this year?

Bobtheman · 19-01-2021 3:41pm

djr15 wrote: »

Biggest issue here as i see it is the Govt/Dept/Unions should have got together last September and set out a road map of a solution which would work in both a disrupted scenario like we have but also one where the school year was unaffected.

That didn’t happen and now it’s a mess to sort out.

The reality is online classes are not happening right across the board, even more so in disadvantaged areas (second hand info) and thus there is no way the exams can go ahead.

Bare in mind this years leaving certs have been affected worse than last years group as they will have had two years of school disrupted.

The government were foolishly committed to keep schools open at all costs. Thus even entertaining the idea would be a thought crime.

Bobtheman · 19-01-2021 3:44pm

History Queen wrote: »

Can somone who would like to see predicted grades happen please outline how they envision that happening? I'm vehemently opposed to them BUT I appreciate that I may be coloured by my experience with them last year. Are people who call for predicted grades able to outline how they could work this year?

I really don't see that happening. Get the covid levels down. Delay the exams and do them as normal. We are just not set up for it. Predicted grades.
However incase covid is still bad after March I'd be drawing up a contingency plan now. Discuss it with unions and be open about it. What this might entail is beyond my pay level.

History Queen · 19-01-2021 3:47pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I really don't see that happening. Get the covid levels down. Delay the exams and do them as normal. We are just not set up for it. Predicted grades.
However incase covid is still bad after March I'd be drawing up a contingency plan now. Discuss it with unions and be open about it. What this might entail is beyond my pay level.

I agree with you completely. I'm just finding it hard to understand why anyone would want predicted grades, hence asking for insight. Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask on though as I think most teachers are against predicted grades too.

Edit: Not sure about delaying exams part but absolutely if needs be

shesty · 19-01-2021 4:25pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

The government were foolishly committed to keep schools open at all costs. Thus even entertaining the idea would be a thought crime.

Just beyond stupid. Not having contingency plans for the bl**dy obvious few potential scenarios that could occur in the event of numbers rising and schools closing is unforgivable at this point. All of these things were extremely predictable by August, and could have been well planned for in advance. Nothing wrong with planning. Special needs kids, proper online platforms, mocks, orals/practicals and the LC. I have said it before and I will say it again, it is not rocket science. Why they persist in going along with their fingers in their ears pretending it is not happening is beyond me.

Bobtheman · 19-01-2021 7:21pm

But cases are falling so putting LC aside when will schools open for all?

shesty · 19-01-2021 7:36pm

I would hazard around the 22nd Feb, and that would be on the "just to be sure" side of caution.

At the rate the numbers are falling, and if it continues at this rate, they could potentially open on Feb 1st on the basis of the argument that they stayed open last Oct with similar numbers.But they let the genie out of the bottle when they agreed to shut for January, so that argument would be hard for the Dept to win.

This week will tell a lot, but if the trend continues as is, there would be a hard argument for them to stay closed past the Feb midterm.

Str8outtaWuhan · 19-01-2021 8:30pm

There are too many solicitors will to take a case against the state if they allow certain counties or areas to go back and not others , You can just seen Young Tarquin's mummy engaging her bridge partner the barrister to tell the gov they can't allow boggers in Leitrim access to inschool teaching while her precious is slumming it on Teams.

Reality is LC won't be help til July and Secondary schools teachers will be working June. The seeds were sown last year and the Dept will try it again.

History Queen · 19-01-2021 8:47pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

There are too many solicitors will to take a case against the state if they allow certain counties or areas to go back and not others , You can just seen Young Tarquin's mummy engaging her bridge partner the barrister to tell the gov they can't allow boggers in Leitrim access to inschool teaching while her precious is slumming it on Teams.

Reality is LC won't be help til July and Secondary schools teachers will be working June. The seeds were sown last year and the Dept will try it again.

I'm expecting LC back on February 1st. Everyone else after midterm. Allows Norma a win by sticking to that date and unions a win with reduced numbers.

Str8outtaWuhan · 19-01-2021 8:50pm

History Queen wrote: »

I'm expecting LC back on February 1st. Everyone else after midterm. Allows Norma a win by sticking to that date and unions a win with reduced numbers.

And July LC?

History Queen · 19-01-2021 8:55pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

And July LC?

Not sure if u asking if i think that'll happen or if I would agree with it? I'll answer both.

At the moment I can't see it being moved from original date because of the precedent set last year (would lead to more cries for "certainty" ie. cancellation).

If they think July LC was a way of making the exams happen I'd support it.

thegreatescape · 19-01-2021 9:10pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

But cases are falling so putting LC aside when will schools open for all?

Cases are falling but not a real representation of community transmission as close contacts are not being tested. Also, deaths are increasing which is even more worrying.

Str8outtaWuhan · 19-01-2021 9:14pm

History Queen wrote: »

Not sure if u asking if i think that'll happen or if I would agree with it? I'll answer both.

At the moment I can't see it being moved from original date because of the precedent set last year (would lead to more cries for "certainty" ie. cancellation).

If they think July LC was a way of making the exams happen I'd support it.

Interesting, many of the teachers I've read on here consider the work they are doing now online as days counted, adding 3-4 more weeks to the teaching year would surely be a hard sell?

shesty · 19-01-2021 9:16pm

thegreatescape wrote: »

Cases are falling but not a real representation of community transmission as close contacts are not being tested. Also, deaths are increasing which is even more worrying.

Do we actually know for certain that close contacts are still not being tested?In the last few days, the numbers on all fronts are low enough that surely they have capacity to test close contacts once more.

The way forward for LC2021

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