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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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rainbowtrout

Wombatman wrote: »

Maybe so, but we are talking about the students who haven't have the opportunity to complete their two year LC course because THERE IS A PANDEMIC IN THE BACKGROUND. We are discussing how this exceptional situation should be dealt with. Any ideas?

ya, and they are ALL in that position.

Let's look at this illogically......

Leaving Cert students roaring for a cancellation on Twitter all day today. Let's say Norma gives them what they want. Well, so no student can try and influence their teachers, we would have to down tools now in the middle of January. What are the Leaving Cert students going to do between January and June?

And what are teachers going to grade them on? Last year they finished attending school in March. There was online teaching for 7 or so weeks with variable engagement until the Leaving Cert was cancelled on May 8th, one month before it was due to start.

The bulk of the practical projects would have been completed at that stage, while orals and music practicals didn't take place the prep work would have been done at that stage as we only finished up school a few weeks before they were scheduled. Teachers had a lot of information to go on.

This year what would they have??? The first seven months of fifth year and the first four months of Leaving Cert?

Coupled with the fact that the predicted grades let to serious inflation of grades across the board. Do you honestly think they wouldn't go even higher this year?

There are going to be attitudes out there like 'Jaysis, I chanced my arm at giving the two H1s in French last year, normally I'd be lucky to get one, and neither was downgraded, shure lookit, might as well stick down three this year and see what happens'. That will happen.

You also have a situation where students want both predicted grades and a chance to sit the exams. Have their cake and eat it more like. It worked relatively well this year because they were more or less finished their courses last year, so were in a position to sit the exams in November.

If they down tools now, with almost half an academic year left, how would they be in any position to sit exams in June?

Wombatman

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That happens students every year in the exam without a pandemic in the background.

The Leaving Cert has always been stressful. This year's crew are going to get some shock in college when they have to sit exams and the college won't care if they've missed time or not.

Maybe so, but we are talking about the students who haven't have the opportunity to complete their two year LC course because THERE IS A PANDEMIC IN THE BACKGROUND. We are discussing how this exceptional situation should be dealt with. Any ideas?

mirrorwall14

Aaaaand no reference to music practicals again. They have been thoroughly sticking their head in the sand regarding singing performance all bloody year

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That happens students every year in the exam without a pandemic in the background.

The Leaving Cert has always been stressful. This year's crew are going to get some shock in college when they have to sit exams and the college won't care if they've missed time or not.

Exactly...the system does way too much hand holding and various other associated enabling when it comes to stress...im convinced it amplifies it in an increasing cohort by pandering to it, by system I mean media, parents and teachers to some extent although the latter two are nearly pressured into it...even more so with the way things are going....its no preparation for the university of life and very counter productive imo

They are going to have to deal with life....school is increasingly becoming some sort of Mary poppins parallel reality where if you are a student everyone tidies up your mess except you.

What's next a virtual exam stress simulator before you do the mocks ....sometimes in fact nearly all the time the best approach is rip the band aid off and get on with it.

rainbowtrout

Wombatman wrote: »

The flip side of that is the experience in the exam for the student. They know when an exam is going poorly. This could be due to inadequate material coverage because of Covid and closures. They won't be thinking, at that point in time, that the bell curve is going to turn their 60% into a 75%, for example, because everyone is likely to underperform. At that point in time, they are going to have a sick feeling in their gut and are likely to panic.

Wouldn't like to see this happening.

That happens students every year in the exam without a pandemic in the background.

The Leaving Cert has always been stressful. This year's crew are going to get some shock in college when they have to sit exams and the college won't care if they've missed time or not.

History Queen

Correspondence from SEC to schools today:

Please see for your attention some important information from the SEC in light of the recently announced period of school closure until 31 January 2021. This situation will be kept under review in light of the Covid-19 situation.

1. Coursework
You will be aware that prior to the Christmas break, the SEC published important information (Circular S64/20) in relation to exceptional arrangements for the completion and authentication of Coursework for Leaving Certificate and Junior Cycle candidates in 2021 owing to COVID 19. The purpose of the circular was to assist and support schools and candidates in relation to the completion of coursework by providing as much flexibility as possible for students and schools, while maintaining the integrity and fairness of the assessment process. The circular set out flexibility in the arrangements for completion and authentication of coursework owing to Covid related absences of either individual candidates or of the class teacher impacting on full class groups. The arrangements in the circular due to interruptions to learning related to COVID, up to Christmas, still stand and will remain in place once schools reopen. There is no change to the exceptional provision made for exemptions from coursework for students under the Adapted Education Provision and applications can be made to the SEC for these noting that this application date is being extended to 26 February.

In light of the recent school closure the following should be noted by reference to Circular S64/20:

In relation to Category 1 coursework, which can be completed by candidates at home, subject to appropriate oversight, it is in schools’ and candidates’ best interests to seek to make progress with the completion of this work over the period of the school closure. While the SEC will allow some additional time for the completion of this work generally by candidates, which will be reflected in the formal completion dates, the SEC believes that it should not be necessary to extend the completion dates to fully take account of the closure period, and indeed it would not be in candidates’ best interests, in terms of managing their time for completing the course, to seek to push out these dates many of which do not arise until late March/April.

The coursework completion dates for all Category 2 coursework, which requires attendance at school for completion, will be extended to take account of the period of the school closure. Details of the extended completion dates in individual subjects will issue from the SEC in due course but schools and candidates should be reassured that this additional time will be provided.

In particular, students due to complete their Design and Communication Graphics coursework by the 15th January should be notified that this date will be extended to take account of the time period between the school closure and the completion date; that is, all students will have an additional 8 days to complete their DCG coursework from the date on which schools reopen.

The SEC had already advised schools that the submission date for Physical Education – Physical Activity Project and the Leaving Certificate Economics coursework, both of which had completion dates in late December 2020, would be extended to mid-January to allow time for the finalisation of the digital system (SEC Schools Portal) to allow schools to upload this digital coursework to the SEC. The Schools Portal will be ready to accept this coursework from the 8 - 12 February inclusive.

As noted in circular 64/20, schools will continue to have flexibility in relation to coursework completion, including by reference to any extended dates, based on local circumstances.

Queries related to coursework should be directed by email to practicals@examinations.ie or by phone to 090 644 2867.

2. RACE Applications
The closing date for the submission of Junior Cycle RACE applications is 22 January. To enable school authorities to complete the application process including any necessary testing with students, this date is being extended to Friday 26 February. Queries related to RACE Applications should be directed to race@examinations.ie or by phone to 090 644 2781.

3. Leaving Certificate Applied February Tasks.
The SEC had provided schools with a provisional start date for the assessment of the LCA Tasks of Monday 1 February. The arrangements for the optimum timing of these assessments to take account of the period of school closure is currently under review by the SEC. Further information will be provided to schools in due course. Meanwhile, the SEC will be issuing schools with the turnaround documents for completion to facilitate arrangements for the assessment of the tasks in due course. Teachers should continue to support their students in the completion of these tasks while engaging in remote learning. Queries related to LCA should be directed to lca@examinations.ie or by phone to 090 644 2725.

4. Entries 2021
Following the collection of data from schools via the Department of Education through the October returns process, the SEC would, under normal arrangements, provide schools at this time of year with individual Leaving Certificate entry forms (E7 forms) for completion by students. As part of its digital strategy, for the 2021 examinations, the SEC will be asking candidates to confirm their own entry data online through the Candidate Self Service Portal. It is intended that the portal will open for this purpose in mid-February. Candidates will be asked to create their own account and will need their examination number in this process. The SEC will shortly be issuing schools with a matrix of Leaving Certificate candidate entries displaying the 2021 examination numbers and will be seeking the assistance of schools in providing these number to candidates. It is intended that the examination number matrix will be in schools next week. Schools will be asked to confirm the entry data submitted by candidates through a turnaround process in due course. The Junior Cycle entries process will operate as normal through the E8 entry form process and these forms will issue in February. Queries related to Entries should be directed to entries@examinations.ie or by phone to 090 644 2702.

5. Planning for examinations
Planning for the 2021 examinations is underway by the State Examinations Commission (SEC) and the Department of Education with this work being assisted by an advisory group of key stakeholders including representatives of students, parents, teachers, school leadership and management bodies, the SEC, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Education, including the National Educational Psychological Service. The advisory group has been considering the possible arrangements for completion of the various components of the 2021 examinations in the context of the challenges presented by Covid-19. The advisory group will consider all of the various issues arising in relation to the holding of the 2021 examinations, including public health considerations and appropriate contingency measures. As this work is continuing, the SEC is not yet in a position to issue the detailed timetables and schedules of key dates for the forthcoming examinations.

Further information on all of these matters will issue in due course.

TheValeyard

I've a feeling a greatly reduced leaving cert will take place

mirrorwall14

Without content reduction and not just choices there is huge pressure on teachers and students to finish courses. Some course adjustments seem better thought out than others.

Maths adding a question doesn’t really help shorten the course as the papers don’t have set questions and you don’t know what those questions will be in. It’s not as straightforward as ‘I’ll leave this chapter out’. Adding extra choice to the Irish music essays does help a little though as the essays don’t include multiple tops (generally).

Music made no substantial adjustments to the composing paper for example which is the longest paper to teach, needs constant practise and is a very summative paper. The teacher and student needs to get the whole way to the end of the content or risk the whole question being un-answerable. Considering they had homeschool from March to May and now for a fourth month of their run to leaving cert I think that’s harsh to leave unadjusted

deiseindublin

Treppen wrote: »

You ll get a skewed bell curve by simplifying.

Yes Treppen, I'm agreeing. Give some more choice as they have done, and just run the exams.

I keep telling my LC about the bell curve as a way to reassure that really it's irrelevant what changes or doesn't change, just do them and stats don't change year to year, unless it's 2020 of course.

Wombatman

Treppen wrote: »

You ll get a skewed bell curve by simplifying. There will be basically no way to apply a proper bell curve once you over simplify or add too much choice.
If questions are over simplified or given extra choices you can't mark those H1s down , once they're 100% correct you can't take it away.

As much as I give out about the dept. I think the SEC really know their stuff when it comes to tweeking the bell curve with questions and marking schemes. They've been fine tuning for decades by adjusting one or two points in the marking scheme to get the curve right.

The flip side of that is the experience in the exam for the student. They know when an exam is going poorly. This could be due to inadequate material coverage because of Covid and closures. They won't be thinking, at that point in time, that the bell curve is going to turn their 60% into a 75%, for example, because everyone is likely to underperform. At that point in time, they are going to have a sick feeling in their gut and are likely to panic.

Wouldn't like to see this happening.

Treppen

deiseindublin wrote: »

Nobody has said it but surely if the bell curve does what it's supposed it's less relevant how much is cut from the syllabus, or how much choice is given.

I've an LC in the house this year so I'm hanging on to that anyway. Would prefer for my child, and my students, that the exams went ahead. Yes, it's tough for them, but it's fair.

You ll get a skewed bell curve by simplifying. There will be basically no way to apply a proper bell curve once you over simplify or add too much choice.
If questions are over simplified or given extra choices you can't mark those H1s down , once they're 100% correct you can't take it away.

As much as I give out about the dept. I think the SEC really know their stuff when it comes to tweeking the bell curve with questions and marking schemes. They've been fine tuning for decades by adjusting one or two points in the marking scheme to get the curve right.

inbetweentea

Well I certainly agree with the bell curve point but I was thinking more in terms of widening student choice to alleviate anxiety in the approach to exams for the students. But certainty it's true -the curve would play a part.

Choochtown

deiseindublin wrote: »

Nobody has said it but surely if the bell curve does what it's supposed it's less relevant how much is cut from the syllabus, or how much choice is given.

I've an LC in the house this year so I'm hanging on to that anyway. Would prefer for my child, and my students, that the exams went ahead. Yes, it's tough for them, but it's fair.

Totally agree Deise.

The only fair thing to do is to allow the Leaving cert exams to go ahead in whatever format possible and let the bell-curve do its job.

Predicted grades are not fair on students or teachers.

Last year teachers were put in the position of perhaps deciding someone's future at the stroke of a pen. If 2 students were both deemed to be the same grade right down to the actual percentage then the teacher had to pick one above the other. In effect this meant in a lot of cases student X got a H3 whilst student Y got a H4 once the magical calculations were done by the department.

That was so wrong. In a lot of cases these students may have been neighbours or even friends or family of the teacher.

To add insult to injury the department then went and broke the agreement by allowing all students to access the information regarding where they were placed by the teacher within the class. Disgraceful!

deiseindublin

Treppen wrote: »

If all students get more choice there a danger that the percentage getting full marks goes up. There's only so much you can simplify before affecting the bell curve.

Nobody has said it but surely if the bell curve does what it's supposed it's less relevant how much is cut from the syllabus, or how much choice is given.

I've an LC in the house this year so I'm hanging on to that anyway. Would prefer for my child, and my students, that the exams went ahead. Yes, it's tough for them, but it's fair.

inbetweentea

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

There should have been a set of exam paper changes ready to go the minute we locked down. The fact they didn’t or don’t appear to have contingency plans ready for this is absolutely incompetent

They should have sat down in September and said ok adjustments made assuming they’re in school now

Then organised a set of adjustments if schools were closed for two more weeks, four more weeks, six more weeks and eight more weeks.

With contingency plans for all practicals or orals.

That should have been published so that teachers could organise their yearly plans appropriately and work around potential changes.

Instead here we are. With adjustments that are not sufficient in some subjects. With no clear plan for practicals. No further adjustments to papers ready?

It is total incompetence

I don't think the Leaving Certificate is impossible but it needs an extremely robust and organised approach. They would need to announce the approach and contingencies soon.

I think they would need to ensure a very wide range of student choice on a paper and have a contingency paper (or papers) for those who might miss the initial examination due to extenuating circumstances (covid in families, an outbreak in a group etc). I don't think the same paper should be re-used in a situation where the examination might be staggered.

Written examiners meetings would need to be online I would have thought (and secure platform). Examiners might need more time- if covid is an issue in their household.

If it's going ahead- think staffing for the Leaving Certificate would need to have begun or be in the process right now...it's not entirely impossible at all. I haven't been contacted about marking or supervising this year so I'm just wondering when they would plan to do this. I personally think this really could be under way now! Primary staff might consider doing some supervision.

I'm reading reports that SEC is planning a meeting at the end of the month and if this is true, they need to speed up!!

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

Reducing the course down can only be a benefit. Take the poets. If it goes from 4 to 3 then they have more choice. Most teachers, have not completely finished their courses. And even if such a teacher existed - that doesn't mean that the kids know it all.

If all students get more choice there a danger that the percentage getting full marks goes up. There's only so much you can simplify before affecting the bell curve.

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

We are already discussing some ways to do it. We will have error free standardization software for a start. Could involve principle staff a bit more, maybe take into account a wider set of results from the students previous years. I'm sure if you weren't so against it you could easily think of ways to improve it. Essentially the school are assigning CAO currency based on perceived performance. Standardization will do the rest. I won't be perfect but nothing will be for the 6th years of 2021. If you believe school staff will behave on a fair and objective manner, I can't see a problem with it.

What's that?

Bobtheman

Wombatman wrote: »

Never said exams were a bad solution. I'm just saying predicted grades can work and shouldn't ruled out as being completely unworkable.

The main issue I have with changing exam papers is that students have already done a lot of revision. I think we all agree that students need to be put in a position where they can eliminate some of the material, the stuff they couldn't cover due to lost time. This could mean that some of their revision may have been in vain. They may have spent Christmas, for example, preparing for 4 poets in English, and might be told they only need three now. They could have worked on other material while they were working on that poet they didn't need.

But no perfect solution. The options and alternatives will have flaws but we need to prepare them none the less. Could offer the students one or more options but for everyone's sake decisions need to be made pretty soon.

Reducing the course down can only be a benefit. Take the poets. If it goes from 4 to 3 then they have more choice. Most teachers, have not completely finished their courses. And even if such a teacher existed - that doesn't mean that the kids know it all.

mtoutlemonde

micks_address wrote: »

The principal had zero involvement in how the grades were awarded last year and the union deals meant no minutes of the grading meetings were kept

Are you 100%? Inflated grades could be a result of 'inflating' principals with no principles

rainbowtrout

TheValeyard wrote: »

Department last April/May

Department this April/May again I'd say

TheValeyard

Department last April/May

Department this April/May again I'd say

ffb8cd3ef21a87b746f3f5502726ee7a389596b9.gifv

mirrorwall14

There should have been a set of exam paper changes ready to go the minute we locked down. The fact they didn’t or don’t appear to have contingency plans ready for this is absolutely incompetent

They should have sat down in September and said ok adjustments made assuming they’re in school now

Then organised a set of adjustments if schools were closed for two more weeks, four more weeks, six more weeks and eight more weeks.

With contingency plans for all practicals or orals.

That should have been published so that teachers could organise their yearly plans appropriately and work around potential changes.

Instead here we are. With adjustments that are not sufficient in some subjects. With no clear plan for practicals. No further adjustments to papers ready?

It is total incompetence

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

I see huge issues with it. Why do you think sitting exams with changes made to papers is not a good solution?

I am against it precisely because I cannot see a way of improvong it to ensure fairness.

Edit: also many staff, myself included would find ourselves unable to complete predicticed grades in an objective manner given what happened last year.

Never said exams were a bad solution. I'm just saying predicted grades can work and shouldn't ruled out as being completely unworkable.

The main issue I have with changing exam papers is that students have already done a lot of revision. I think we all agree that students need to be put in a position where they can eliminate some of the material, the stuff they couldn't cover due to lost time. This could mean that some of their revision may have been in vain. They may have spent Christmas, for example, preparing for 4 poets in English, and might be told they only need three now. They could have worked on other material while they were working on that poet they didn't need.

But no perfect solution. The options and alternatives will have flaws but we need to prepare them none the less. Could offer the students one or more options but for everyone's sake decisions need to be made pretty soon.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

We are already discussing some ways to do it. We will have error free standardization software for a start. Could involve principle staff a bit more, maybe take into account a wider set of results from the students previous years. I'm sure if you weren't so against it you could easily think of ways to improve it. Essentially the school are assigning CAO currency based on perceived performance. Standardization will do the rest. I won't be perfect but nothing will be for the 6th years of 2021. If you believe school staff will behave on a fair and objective manner, I can't see a problem with it.

I see huge issues with it. Why do you think sitting exams with changes made to papers is not a good solution?

I am against it precisely because I cannot see a way of improvong it to ensure fairness.

Edit: also many staff, myself included would find ourselves unable to complete predicticed grades in an objective manner given what happened last year.

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

But in what way? Our system is fundamentally unsuited to predicted grades.

We are already discussing some ways to do it. We will have error free standardization software for a start. Could involve principle staff a bit more, maybe take into account a wider set of results from the students previous years. I'm sure if you weren't so against it you could easily think of ways to improve it. Essentially the school are assigning CAO currency based on perceived performance. Standardization will do the rest. I won't be perfect but nothing will be for the 6th years of 2021. If you believe school staff will behave on a fair and objective manner, I can't see a problem with it.

Smacruairi

Principals, from my experience, signed off in so far as they checked (with their assistants) that levels were correct.if they were diligent they would ensure someone who had failed every exam would not be getting a H 1 in applied maths. Other than that, and relaying the dept circulars, they didn't have any realistic input.

It wasn't like a SLAR meeting with thr principal invited to comment and guide. They were purely overseeing the admin side of things.

History Queen

The fact that there is so much misunderstanding about the process and the role of different people in it just shows how bloody awful and ill thought out it all was (and i include myself in that)

History Queen

micks_address wrote: »

What does sign off mean? If the principal didn’t agree with a grade they had no way of getting to changed?

Principal can return queried grades to teachers for further consideration

Details can be found @ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1afce4-a-guide-to-calculated-grades-for-leaving-certificate-students-2020/#oversight-of-the-marksranking-process-by-the-school-principal

I have screenshot the relevant part to answer your question.

micks_address

solerina wrote: »

He/ she signed the form...or inputted the grade the teacher have into the system. They had no input otherwise

That’s what I was told from someone I’d have no reason to not believe

amacca

micks_address wrote: »

Please do tell. Principal’s keyed in the results. Only involvement they had in process. You have another insight? Minutes were not kept of grading meetings to protect teacher’s from come back.

Did principals not take part in alignment meetings with single teacher subjects (deputy principals definitely did anyway)

Principals also relayed the dept guidelines/ info/ blurb regarding how predict grades to staff and I'm fairly sure my OH was in a whole staff meet8ng regarding guidelines delivered by principal......to say they just sat there and inputted results or just signed off on them without any other involvement in the process must be over egging the pasta for some places anyway

I'm sure most of them when inputting the results wouldn't let completely off theveall ones through either......