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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Maybe I could borrow Norma's pearls and use them to say a few decades of the rosary that the Dept don't capitulate on this. It does look to be going ahead for now, and I don't see why not based on the fact that we were in school as normal in October with 1200 cases a day. No reason cases can't be brought under control by June.

Hard, at face value, to argue with your point that "based on the fact that we were in school as normal in October with 1200 cases a day", things should be well under control by June.

You'd imagine even by normal linear progression achieved in previous periods of enhanced restrictions (I don't see it as a lockdown in the original sense so try to avoid the term) you'd think that we might even hit those sort of figures by end of the month.

However, I do notice a change in the mood music recently. Last week Minister Foley was metaphorically kicking and punching the ground during a TV interview in her determination to say "schools are safe" as often as possible. But this has softened in recent days.

The Taoiseach on TV yesterday (think it was yesterday - days all blur into one at this stage) was not as bullish about schools or as "passionate" about education as he usually is. I get the impression that maybe they see trends and have concerns about variants that they are not being very candid about publicly.

But like I have said before an inability of government to communicate effectively and get away from cover-my-ass-at-all-costs-and-say-nothing speak is their greatest weakness. It is allowing others to dictate the trend of the conversation.

rainbowtrout

They might have also realised finally that the public are not buying the 'schools are safe' rhetoric anymore.

mirrorwall14

The schools are safe is driving me mad. No one ever said schools were safe without the stipulation that ‘schools are safe while community transmission is low’. Norma seems to have tried to equate these. They are VERY different

am_zarathustra

deiseindublin wrote: »

Nobody has said it but surely if the bell curve does what it's supposed it's less relevant how much is cut from the syllabus, or how much choice is given.

I've an LC in the house this year so I'm hanging on to that anyway. Would prefer for my child, and my students, that the exams went ahead. Yes, it's tough for them, but it's fair.

Tried to respond to PM but you have no space for new messages! Not a problem, I've lots of stuff, I'll try tomorrow to respond!

Bobtheman

Where are we exactly with school openings? No agreement on special schools? Why can't the vaccine be given to those teachers as a priority?
Why wasn't childcare issue not sorted by now? Essential workers and childcare has been a red flag for months.
When will schools open??

TheValeyard

Bobtheman wrote: »

Where are we exactly with school openings? No agreement on special schools? Why can't the vaccine be given to those teachers as a priority?
Why wasn't childcare issue not sorted by now? Essential workers and childcare has been a red flag for months.
When will schools open??

Piff. You and your common sense questions.

micks_address

Bobtheman wrote: »

Where are we exactly with school openings? No agreement on special schools? Why can't the vaccine be given to those teachers as a priority?
Why wasn't childcare issue not sorted by now? Essential workers and childcare has been a red flag for months.
When will schools open??

what still baffles me is how the dept will come out and declare schools opening without full agreement from everyone. Then it proceeds to fall apart in a %hit show in the following days annoying everyone in involved

Treppen

micks_address wrote: »

what still baffles me is how the dept will come out and declare schools opening without full agreement from everyone. Then it proceeds to fall apart in a %hit show in the following days annoying everyone in involved

Maybe that's their plan. Just keep announcing (without agreement) and unions have to keep saying no. Then in a few months time history will be revised to say it was all unions fault.
Kind of like the "unions sold out younger teachers" idea.

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

Maybe that's their plan. Just keep announcing (without agreement) and unions have to keep saying no. Then in a few months time history will be revised to say it was all unions fault.
Kind of like the "unions sold out younger teachers" idea.

Oh God please don't reopen that can of worms.

micks_address

Treppen wrote: »

Maybe that's their plan. Just keep announcing (without agreement) and unions have to keep saying no. Then in a few months time history will be revised to say it was all unions fault.
Kind of like the "unions sold out younger teachers" idea.

Seems very divisive on the special needs front. i think the challenge is schools that don't have dedicated special needs units. How do you manage which teachers come in and manage which classes.. then you have teachers/sna's with underlying health conditions that don't want to mix with other people.. then you have parents of some kids with needs who want to keep them at home and others who need a break and help with their kids.. its very hard to sort it out..

rainbowtrout

micks_address wrote: »

Seems very divisive on the special needs front. i think the challenge is schools that don't have dedicated special needs units. How do you manage which teachers come in and manage which classes.. then you have teachers/sna's with underlying health conditions that don't want to mix with other people.. then you have parents of some kids with needs who want to keep them at home and others who need a break and help with their kids.. its very hard to sort it out..

Well there's been a lot of controversy about who is getting the spare vaccines in hospitals, something that will run and run for the next few months I'd imagine. Mainly cos nothing is done right in this country without some wheeling and dealing in the background. I do think it's right to use up the vaccines instead of wasting them, but surely there can be a waiting list that if you have vaccinated everyone in the nursing homes in the area and all the hospital staff that you then move down the list and start doing some of the other essential workers. Wouldn't be too hard to have started giving a few people the vaccine that they want to go back into special schools, particularly if they are in the high risk category.

French Toast

Got word today that a few of our LCs are really struggling.

The cynic in me would have previously said LCs will just have to toughen it out and keep working but when you see genuine, hardworking students getting dismayed you definitely feel for them.

rainbowtrout

French Toast wrote: »

Got word today that a few of our LCs are really struggling.

The cynic in me would have previously said LCs will just have to toughen it out and keep working but when you see genuine, hardworking students getting dismayed you definitely feel for them.

Our principal cancelled our mocks yesterday. Talking to my Leaving Certs they didn't really want that. They asked if I would run a mock when they went back to school - which I don't have a problem doing. They figure, it's either practice for the real thing, or some evidence for predictive grading.

History Queen

French Toast wrote: »

Got word today that a few of our LCs are really struggling.

The cynic in me would have previously said LCs will just have to toughen it out and keep working but when you see genuine, hardworking students getting dismayed you definitely feel for them.

Absolutely, the constant back and forth on social media, newspapers, television and the airwaves cannot be helping them.

Why the Department cannot make a clear statement including an outline of contingency measures is beyond me. It's almost as if they are playing for it to be called off. It's a disgrace.

banie01

French Toast wrote: »

Got word today that a few of our LCs are really struggling.

The cynic in me would have previously said LCs will just have to toughen it out and keep working but when you see genuine, hardworking students getting dismayed you definitely feel for them.

Not a teacher, but I am both a Uni student and a parent of a 5th year student.

From a personal and albeit 3rd level standpoint.
We moved online in March and I've currently run through 10 modules of online learning.
Of those, only 1 lecturer took on board feedback from the Spring semester and really engaged and improved his entire module content for the Autumn.
The other 9 modules were recorded asynchronous lectures and of zero practical value.
It's a firm belief of mine that asynchronous lectures really kill the collegiate in college.
Exams were wholly abandoned, moved to either essay or continuous assessment, with a couple of modules finished off with an open book exam open for 24hrs.

I've been employed by my Uni as a peer support tutor and 2nd and 3rd yr students are struggling and 1st yrs are being supported but are adrift.

Balance that approach versus the drive to ensure that the annual set of pressurised limited time exams are run "as normal"?
Normal for the next exam cycle and quite honestly the 22 LC is gone and trying to keep it is only adding to the anxiety of students and likely teachers too.
Truncated curriculum, poor online experience of course content and delivery, connection and technology issues all are playing a part in ensuring an imperfect and stressful learning environment.

My Son is a bright, ambitious and engaged student.
More of his classes are moving to synchronous lectures, currently @50%.
The school is working incredibly hard to keep as close to in-school scheduling and normality as possible.
It has tweaked and changed as it has worked through the 1st 2 weeks of online this time around.
That said, some teachers really have taken the opportunity to push the self directed learning trope to the absolute limit.

Too many models and delivery methods are in play.
Consistency across the delivery of any learning experience is vital and whilst many teachers are doing their utmost.
The need for uniformity in curriculum delivery and even teaching standards, surely means that further concessions to the realities of the current learning environment are made?

djr15

Biggest issue here as i see it is the Govt/Dept/Unions should have got together last September and set out a road map of a solution which would work in both a disrupted scenario like we have but also one where the school year was unaffected.

That didn’t happen and now it’s a mess to sort out.

The reality is online classes are not happening right across the board, even more so in disadvantaged areas (second hand info) and thus there is no way the exams can go ahead.

Bare in mind this years leaving certs have been affected worse than last years group as they will have had two years of school disrupted.

History Queen

Can somone who would like to see predicted grades happen please outline how they envision that happening? I'm vehemently opposed to them BUT I appreciate that I may be coloured by my experience with them last year. Are people who call for predicted grades able to outline how they could work this year?

Bobtheman

djr15 wrote: »

Biggest issue here as i see it is the Govt/Dept/Unions should have got together last September and set out a road map of a solution which would work in both a disrupted scenario like we have but also one where the school year was unaffected.

That didn’t happen and now it’s a mess to sort out.

The reality is online classes are not happening right across the board, even more so in disadvantaged areas (second hand info) and thus there is no way the exams can go ahead.

Bare in mind this years leaving certs have been affected worse than last years group as they will have had two years of school disrupted.

The government were foolishly committed to keep schools open at all costs. Thus even entertaining the idea would be a thought crime.

Bobtheman

History Queen wrote: »

Can somone who would like to see predicted grades happen please outline how they envision that happening? I'm vehemently opposed to them BUT I appreciate that I may be coloured by my experience with them last year. Are people who call for predicted grades able to outline how they could work this year?

I really don't see that happening. Get the covid levels down. Delay the exams and do them as normal. We are just not set up for it. Predicted grades.
However incase covid is still bad after March I'd be drawing up a contingency plan now. Discuss it with unions and be open about it. What this might entail is beyond my pay level.

History Queen

Bobtheman wrote: »

I really don't see that happening. Get the covid levels down. Delay the exams and do them as normal. We are just not set up for it. Predicted grades.
However incase covid is still bad after March I'd be drawing up a contingency plan now. Discuss it with unions and be open about it. What this might entail is beyond my pay level.

I agree with you completely. I'm just finding it hard to understand why anyone would want predicted grades, hence asking for insight. Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask on though as I think most teachers are against predicted grades too.

Edit: Not sure about delaying exams part but absolutely if needs be

shesty

Bobtheman wrote: »

The government were foolishly committed to keep schools open at all costs. Thus even entertaining the idea would be a thought crime.

Just beyond stupid. Not having contingency plans for the bl**dy obvious few potential scenarios that could occur in the event of numbers rising and schools closing is unforgivable at this point. All of these things were extremely predictable by August, and could have been well planned for in advance. Nothing wrong with planning. Special needs kids, proper online platforms, mocks, orals/practicals and the LC. I have said it before and I will say it again, it is not rocket science. Why they persist in going along with their fingers in their ears pretending it is not happening is beyond me.

Bobtheman

But cases are falling so putting LC aside when will schools open for all?

shesty

I would hazard around the 22nd Feb, and that would be on the "just to be sure" side of caution.

At the rate the numbers are falling, and if it continues at this rate, they could potentially open on Feb 1st on the basis of the argument that they stayed open last Oct with similar numbers.But they let the genie out of the bottle when they agreed to shut for January, so that argument would be hard for the Dept to win.

This week will tell a lot, but if the trend continues as is, there would be a hard argument for them to stay closed past the Feb midterm.

Str8outtaWuhan

There are too many solicitors will to take a case against the state if they allow certain counties or areas to go back and not others , You can just seen Young Tarquin's mummy engaging her bridge partner the barrister to tell the gov they can't allow boggers in Leitrim access to inschool teaching while her precious is slumming it on Teams.

Reality is LC won't be help til July and Secondary schools teachers will be working June. The seeds were sown last year and the Dept will try it again.

History Queen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

There are too many solicitors will to take a case against the state if they allow certain counties or areas to go back and not others , You can just seen Young Tarquin's mummy engaging her bridge partner the barrister to tell the gov they can't allow boggers in Leitrim access to inschool teaching while her precious is slumming it on Teams.

Reality is LC won't be help til July and Secondary schools teachers will be working June. The seeds were sown last year and the Dept will try it again.

I'm expecting LC back on February 1st. Everyone else after midterm. Allows Norma a win by sticking to that date and unions a win with reduced numbers.

Str8outtaWuhan

History Queen wrote: »

I'm expecting LC back on February 1st. Everyone else after midterm. Allows Norma a win by sticking to that date and unions a win with reduced numbers.

And July LC?

History Queen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

And July LC?

Not sure if u asking if i think that'll happen or if I would agree with it? I'll answer both.

At the moment I can't see it being moved from original date because of the precedent set last year (would lead to more cries for "certainty" ie. cancellation).

If they think July LC was a way of making the exams happen I'd support it.

thegreatescape

Bobtheman wrote: »

But cases are falling so putting LC aside when will schools open for all?

Cases are falling but not a real representation of community transmission as close contacts are not being tested. Also, deaths are increasing which is even more worrying.

Str8outtaWuhan

History Queen wrote: »

Not sure if u asking if i think that'll happen or if I would agree with it? I'll answer both.

At the moment I can't see it being moved from original date because of the precedent set last year (would lead to more cries for "certainty" ie. cancellation).

If they think July LC was a way of making the exams happen I'd support it.

Interesting, many of the teachers I've read on here consider the work they are doing now online as days counted, adding 3-4 more weeks to the teaching year would surely be a hard sell?

shesty

thegreatescape wrote: »

Cases are falling but not a real representation of community transmission as close contacts are not being tested. Also, deaths are increasing which is even more worrying.

Do we actually know for certain that close contacts are still not being tested?In the last few days, the numbers on all fronts are low enough that surely they have capacity to test close contacts once more.