The way forward for LC2021

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

If I were the minister I would come out and just say we intend holding the LC. But have a plan B

Once you mention plan B then the "pleading for certainty" will begin.
Students will want both options.
Students will lose interest in plan A... Which is studying.

Alqua

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Got an email from principal today which came from ETB which said that they've had word from DES/SEC that exams are going ahead as normal currently and they are currently planning for orals and practicals. Consideration is being given to format for these and deadlines. If practicals have to be done under teacher supervision then the dates will be pushed back in line with the number of days we are online.

Expecting written confirmation in due course.

I'm keen to know how we are expected to get courses covered [online on students' phones], while running the practicals in...May? Especially as the classroom guidelines (for music anyway) pretty much prohibit students from practising.

rainbowtrout

Alqua wrote: »

I'm keen to know how we are expected to get courses covered [online on students' phones], while running the practicals in...May? Especially as the classroom guidelines (for music anyway) pretty much prohibit students from practising.

No idea. It's probably the trickiest one given that it seems to be the only practical subject where there is a ban on practice.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No idea. It's probably the trickiest one given that it seems to be the only practical subject where there is a ban on practice.

There's a fair few who do group singing, plus ensembles. Otherwise I think they could have gone the recording route like Royal Irish Academy did.

mirrorwall14

Treppen wrote: »

There's a fair few who do group singing, plus ensembles. Otherwise I think they could have gone the recording route like Royal Irish Academy did.

Yeah this is the major issue. Most of us would put out weaker singers into groups allowing them to show off harmony etc

inbetweentea

I do think the Leaving Certificate is fairer than predicted grades but it's just impossible for me to see how it will go ahead this year. I'm just thinking in terms of logistically having everyone in to do them - or if kids become symptomatic (or someone in their family does) around exam time. Could the element of fairness be reduced if the exam is staggered or postponed in cases like these? Would they not be common occurrences?

I'm not even including staff issues as I say this.


There is also very unequal take-up of online learning across the board (and I'm talking about for reasons outside the students' control...)
I completely agree that grade inflation is an issue with predictive grading...

I was wondering if kids provided paper work evidence of their learning (say- their best work or something) if that would work as a means of verifying the predicted grade (saw the idea of a portfolio as a proposal in the UK) but we all know, as teachers, that this would be very open to abuse..

Treppen

very much open to abuse...

If anything, any form of mocks@home should be strictly ruled out in case there will be predictive grades. Could you imagine!

I suspect that now I've mentioned it, there will be someone from the DES reading it and saying "oh that's a good idea.. mocks@home, yes lets request that all schools do it".

inbetweentea

Treppen wrote: »

very much open to abuse...

If anything, any form of mocks@home should be strictly ruled out in case there will be predictive grades. Could you imagine!

I suspect that now I've mentioned it, there will be someone from the DES reading it and saying "oh that's a good idea.. mocks@home, yes lets request that all schools do it".

Can't disagree with this Treppen. Good point. Exam questions at home only work really as a means of helping students to judge the progress of their own learning- maybe for feedback but it again would be grossly unfair to predict anything using them. I am curious about other schools and if you do Christmas tests/exams or continuous assessments before Christmas...
I wish we had been able to get a bit more guidance from September on the best approaches to this in current climate. I understand the situation has obviously changed since September but there was always the chance of online learning again. It's a horrific mess for subjects with practical elements.

micks_address

Definitely a challenge for students at the moment. Our son is working hard and has a good online setup. He has said repeatedly to us that he will be raging if he spends 3 months more killing himself studying for exams to be cancelled in April/May. I think its highly likely predicted grades will be used this year again. Best case is leaving students get back to school in February. At that point they will have spent 4 months out of classroom settings between 5th and 6th. Id imagine if it is to go predicted grades it will be announced in March. Its not fair to let it drag on. There's arguments to postpone it till July etc but you can't just wing it and hope its all grand by then. last years class and this years are equally impacted by the pandemic. maybe this years more. I don't want him to sit on his hands for 3 months if they do go predicted again this year.

Bobtheman

Unfortunately there is no assurance to be given to students. They will have to accept that we cant predict the next few months,
Thus students will have to work away and if it goes to predicted grades that work will surely count.
I think the media have a huge role to play. They whip up anxiety.
Parents too will have to soothe their kids nerves as best the can.
People who should be living longer are dying. Cancer treatments are delayed. Peoples lives are literally going down the tubs. People who might just now be back on their feet after the last crash. People who are too old to start again.
We as a nation need to stop the hysterical veneration of the LC. It doesn't help kids nor do articles about kids feeling anxiety over the LC help. It just creates more anxiety not less.
It needs to be taken down a few notches. The whole LC on a high altar thing. You see more articles about it than say hospital treatments delayed .

Smacruairi

Am I the only one thinking that the lc will, and should, go ahead as normal?

More invigilators, and spread out the exams more, maybe even rent a few hotel venues, but itll be far easier to run than a whole school /trying to keep up timetables etc?

The remote aspect is a bit of an impact, but not a huge one imo, though granted I'm in Dublin. It seems to me those calling loudest amongst the student body for them to be cancelled are the ones who don't really want to study and are looking for a vent for their anxiety and this is it, as opposed to just engaging with work. We are 3 days into remote learning, most secondary schools have drastically increased their provision like.

History Queen

Smacruairi wrote: »

Am I the only one thinking that the lc will, and should, go ahead as normal?

More invigilators, and spread out the exams more, maybe even rent a few hotel venues, but itll be far easier to run than a whole school /trying to keep up timetables etc?

The remote aspect is a bit of an impact, but not a huge one imo, though granted I'm in Dublin. It seems to me those calling loudest amongst the student body for them to be cancelled are the ones who don't really want to study and are looking for a vent for their anxiety and this is it, as opposed to just engaging with work. We are 3 days into remote learning, most secondary schools have drastically increased their provision like.

I agree with you. Futher adjustment of the papers if necessary, will help mitigate poor remote engagement/provision.

Bobtheman

If the rates continue to go down and if the vaccination continue then of course it can go ahead. The LC. That's a few Ifs and here is another. If there are no more variants or these variants are treatable.
I'd love to see a minister say something along these lines instead of the 1984 double think we usually get.
Morning - schools will not be closed
Afternoon - it was always our intention to close the schools. We never said otherwise. Delete all newsreels with this information and shoot those who say they remember anything else!

micks_address

Bobtheman wrote: »

If the rates continue to go down and if the vaccination continue then of course it can go ahead. The LC. That's a few Ifs and here is another. If there are no more variants or these variants are treatable.
I'd love to see a minister say something along these lines instead of the 1984 double think we usually get.
Morning - schools will not be closed
Afternoon - it was always our intention to close the schools. We never said otherwise. Delete all newsreels with this information and shoot those who say they remember anything else!

I don't think there's any issue with having it go ahead physically. Kids were in schools from September. I think the question is if its fair to have the exams given the amount of disruption the current leaving certs have had.

Bobtheman

micks_address wrote: »

I don't think there's any issue with having it go ahead physically. Kids were in schools from September. I think the question is if its fair to have the exams given the amount of disruption the current leaving certs have had.

I see your distinction but I still wonder if it's physically possible in June. That's issue number 1. As to whether it should go ahead or not-even if its physically possible-I think it should, with adjustments. It's still the fairest system out there.
Yes, it needs reform. I see no reason why students cant sit state exams at the end of both 5th year and 6th year but now is not the time to mess with major reform.
Cut what students have to be assessed at and plough away in June-if possible.

History Queen

micks_address wrote: »

I don't think there's any issue with having it go ahead physically. Kids were in schools from September. I think the question is if its fair to have the exams given the amount of disruption the current leaving certs have had.

This is exactly why the exams must go ahead albeit with accommodations made. What would the predicted grades be based on?

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

This is exactly why the exams must go ahead albeit with accommodations made. What would the predicted grades be based on?

Judgement of teacher, backed up by principle staff, with standardization applied. Thought that would be obvious at this stage.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

Judgement of teacher, backed up by principle staff, with standardization applied. Thought that would be obvious at this stage.

That didn't work out so well last year

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

That didn't work out so well last year

No solution is going to be perfect. At least they can learn from their mistakes, I hope.

micks_address

History Queen wrote: »

That didn't work out so well last year

The principal had zero involvement in how the grades were awarded last year and the union deals meant no minutes of the grading meetings were kept

am_zarathustra

inbetweentea wrote: »

I do think the Leaving Certificate is fairer than predicted grades but it's just impossible for me to see how it will go ahead this year. I'm just thinking in terms of logistically having everyone in to do them - or if kids become symptomatic (or someone in their family does) around exam time. Could the element of fairness be reduced if the exam is staggered or postponed in cases like these? Would they not be common occurrences?

I'm not even including staff issues as I say this.


There is also very unequal take-up of online learning across the board (and I'm talking about for reasons outside the students' control...)
I completely agree that grade inflation is an issue with predictive grading...

I was wondering if kids provided paper work evidence of their learning (say- their best work or something) if that would work as a means of verifying the predicted grade (saw the idea of a portfolio as a proposal in the UK) but we all know, as teachers, that this would be very open to abuse..

Any evidence from home will be very influenced by the level of education of parents. I used to give very expensive grinds in south Dublin to kids in HL maths, I could get nearly anyone a H5, better if they had a bit of ability. I hated doing it but in the middle of the recession I needed regular money for rent. 100% these parents would have me on zoom now, for whatever money I made up in my head to make sure their kids work was fabulous.

For context I'm now in a DEIS school in a very deprived area. I think the kids should sit the exams in June. It's a great leveler. The main reason they are strssed is because of the media and parents. If they were told, the exams will be adjusted based on how much time your out, they would be fine. Those aiming for high points will quickly learn that every college exam is worse than the Leaving and a hell of a lot less predictable.

micks_address wrote: »

Definitely a challenge for students at the moment. Our son is working hard and has a good online setup. He has said repeatedly to us that he will be raging if he spends 3 months more killing himself studying for exams to be cancelled in April/May. I think its highly likely predicted grades will be used this year again. Best case is leaving students get back to school in February. At that point they will have spent 4 months out of classroom settings between 5th and 6th. Id imagine if it is to go predicted grades it will be announced in March. Its not fair to let it drag on. There's arguments to postpone it till July etc but you can't just wing it and hope its all grand by then. last years class and this years are equally impacted by the pandemic. maybe this years more. I don't want him to sit on his hands for 3 months if they do go predicted again this year.

Learning is also so he can competently move on to whatever course he wants. No learning is wasted, the goal of education is not an exam it is just a rough way of streaming people into courses (and I agree it could be better). Assume you have exams, just like I willl continue to teach as if there are exams.

History Queen

micks_address wrote: »

The principal had zero involvement in how the grades were awarded last year and the union deals meant no minutes of the grading meetings were kept

Thats not true. At all. Principals signed off on results and there were no grading meetings so I don't know how there could have been minutes of them

micks_address

History Queen wrote: »

Thats not true. At all

Please do tell. Principal’s keyed in the results. Only involvement they had in process. You have another insight? Minutes were not kept of grading meetings to protect teacher’s from come back.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

No solution is going to be perfect. At least they can learn from their mistakes, I hope.

But in what way? Our system is fundamentally unsuited to predicted grades.

History Queen

micks_address wrote: »

Please do tell. Principal’s keyed in the results. Only involvement they had in process. You have another insight? Minutes were not kept of grading meetings to protect teacher’s from come back.

I took part in the process last year. Principals had to sign off results. They did not key them in.

micks_address

History Queen wrote: »

I took part in the process last year. Principals had to sign off results. They did not key them in.

Principal I spoke to said they weren’t not allowed have any input to the results. All they did was key them into the system. Might have been different in different schools

History Queen

micks_address wrote: »

Principal I spoke to said they weren’t not allowed have any input to the results. All they did was key them into the system. Might have been different in different schools

That principal didn't adhere to process if that is the case. There was a specific role created for the inputting of data (I cannot for the life of me remember the title) and principals were to sign-off on grades. It was a shambolic system and did a disservice to our students.there should be no repeat of it.

solerina

History Queen wrote: »

But in what way? Our system is fundamentally unsuited to predicted grades.

This.
We have very little proper exams to base a predicted grade on this year and I for one will refuse to do it, it was a disaster last year and I am not doing it again.

micks_address

History Queen wrote: »

That principal didn't adhere to process if that is the case. There was a specific role created for the inputting of data (I cannot for the life of me remember the title) and principals were to sign-off on grades. It was a shambolic system and did a disservice to our students.there should be no repeat of it.

What does sign off mean? If the principal didn’t agree with a grade they had no way of getting to changed?

solerina

micks_address wrote: »

What does sign off mean? If the principal didn’t agree with a grade they had no way of getting to changed?

He/ she signed the form...or inputted the grade the teacher have into the system. They had no input otherwise

amacca

micks_address wrote: »

Please do tell. Principal’s keyed in the results. Only involvement they had in process. You have another insight? Minutes were not kept of grading meetings to protect teacher’s from come back.

Did principals not take part in alignment meetings with single teacher subjects (deputy principals definitely did anyway)

Principals also relayed the dept guidelines/ info/ blurb regarding how predict grades to staff and I'm fairly sure my OH was in a whole staff meet8ng regarding guidelines delivered by principal......to say they just sat there and inputted results or just signed off on them without any other involvement in the process must be over egging the pasta for some places anyway

I'm sure most of them when inputting the results wouldn't let completely off theveall ones through either......

micks_address

solerina wrote: »

He/ she signed the form...or inputted the grade the teacher have into the system. They had no input otherwise

That’s what I was told from someone I’d have no reason to not believe

History Queen

micks_address wrote: »

What does sign off mean? If the principal didn’t agree with a grade they had no way of getting to changed?

Principal can return queried grades to teachers for further consideration

Details can be found @ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1afce4-a-guide-to-calculated-grades-for-leaving-certificate-students-2020/#oversight-of-the-marksranking-process-by-the-school-principal

I have screenshot the relevant part to answer your question.

History Queen

The fact that there is so much misunderstanding about the process and the role of different people in it just shows how bloody awful and ill thought out it all was (and i include myself in that)

Smacruairi

Principals, from my experience, signed off in so far as they checked (with their assistants) that levels were correct.if they were diligent they would ensure someone who had failed every exam would not be getting a H 1 in applied maths. Other than that, and relaying the dept circulars, they didn't have any realistic input.

It wasn't like a SLAR meeting with thr principal invited to comment and guide. They were purely overseeing the admin side of things.

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

But in what way? Our system is fundamentally unsuited to predicted grades.

We are already discussing some ways to do it. We will have error free standardization software for a start. Could involve principle staff a bit more, maybe take into account a wider set of results from the students previous years. I'm sure if you weren't so against it you could easily think of ways to improve it. Essentially the school are assigning CAO currency based on perceived performance. Standardization will do the rest. I won't be perfect but nothing will be for the 6th years of 2021. If you believe school staff will behave on a fair and objective manner, I can't see a problem with it.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

We are already discussing some ways to do it. We will have error free standardization software for a start. Could involve principle staff a bit more, maybe take into account a wider set of results from the students previous years. I'm sure if you weren't so against it you could easily think of ways to improve it. Essentially the school are assigning CAO currency based on perceived performance. Standardization will do the rest. I won't be perfect but nothing will be for the 6th years of 2021. If you believe school staff will behave on a fair and objective manner, I can't see a problem with it.

I see huge issues with it. Why do you think sitting exams with changes made to papers is not a good solution?

I am against it precisely because I cannot see a way of improvong it to ensure fairness.

Edit: also many staff, myself included would find ourselves unable to complete predicticed grades in an objective manner given what happened last year.

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

I see huge issues with it. Why do you think sitting exams with changes made to papers is not a good solution?

I am against it precisely because I cannot see a way of improvong it to ensure fairness.

Edit: also many staff, myself included would find ourselves unable to complete predicticed grades in an objective manner given what happened last year.

Never said exams were a bad solution. I'm just saying predicted grades can work and shouldn't ruled out as being completely unworkable.

The main issue I have with changing exam papers is that students have already done a lot of revision. I think we all agree that students need to be put in a position where they can eliminate some of the material, the stuff they couldn't cover due to lost time. This could mean that some of their revision may have been in vain. They may have spent Christmas, for example, preparing for 4 poets in English, and might be told they only need three now. They could have worked on other material while they were working on that poet they didn't need.

But no perfect solution. The options and alternatives will have flaws but we need to prepare them none the less. Could offer the students one or more options but for everyone's sake decisions need to be made pretty soon.

mirrorwall14

There should have been a set of exam paper changes ready to go the minute we locked down. The fact they didn’t or don’t appear to have contingency plans ready for this is absolutely incompetent

They should have sat down in September and said ok adjustments made assuming they’re in school now

Then organised a set of adjustments if schools were closed for two more weeks, four more weeks, six more weeks and eight more weeks.

With contingency plans for all practicals or orals.

That should have been published so that teachers could organise their yearly plans appropriately and work around potential changes.

Instead here we are. With adjustments that are not sufficient in some subjects. With no clear plan for practicals. No further adjustments to papers ready?

It is total incompetence

TheValeyard

Department last April/May



Department this April/May again I'd say

rainbowtrout

TheValeyard wrote: »

Department last April/May



Department this April/May again I'd say

mtoutlemonde

micks_address wrote: »

The principal had zero involvement in how the grades were awarded last year and the union deals meant no minutes of the grading meetings were kept

Are you 100%? Inflated grades could be a result of 'inflating' principals with no principles

Bobtheman

Wombatman wrote: »

Never said exams were a bad solution. I'm just saying predicted grades can work and shouldn't ruled out as being completely unworkable.

The main issue I have with changing exam papers is that students have already done a lot of revision. I think we all agree that students need to be put in a position where they can eliminate some of the material, the stuff they couldn't cover due to lost time. This could mean that some of their revision may have been in vain. They may have spent Christmas, for example, preparing for 4 poets in English, and might be told they only need three now. They could have worked on other material while they were working on that poet they didn't need.

But no perfect solution. The options and alternatives will have flaws but we need to prepare them none the less. Could offer the students one or more options but for everyone's sake decisions need to be made pretty soon.

Reducing the course down can only be a benefit. Take the poets. If it goes from 4 to 3 then they have more choice. Most teachers, have not completely finished their courses. And even if such a teacher existed - that doesn't mean that the kids know it all.

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

We are already discussing some ways to do it. We will have error free standardization software for a start. Could involve principle staff a bit more, maybe take into account a wider set of results from the students previous years. I'm sure if you weren't so against it you could easily think of ways to improve it. Essentially the school are assigning CAO currency based on perceived performance. Standardization will do the rest. I won't be perfect but nothing will be for the 6th years of 2021. If you believe school staff will behave on a fair and objective manner, I can't see a problem with it.

What's that?

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

Reducing the course down can only be a benefit. Take the poets. If it goes from 4 to 3 then they have more choice. Most teachers, have not completely finished their courses. And even if such a teacher existed - that doesn't mean that the kids know it all.

If all students get more choice there a danger that the percentage getting full marks goes up. There's only so much you can simplify before affecting the bell curve.

inbetweentea

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

There should have been a set of exam paper changes ready to go the minute we locked down. The fact they didn’t or don’t appear to have contingency plans ready for this is absolutely incompetent

They should have sat down in September and said ok adjustments made assuming they’re in school now

Then organised a set of adjustments if schools were closed for two more weeks, four more weeks, six more weeks and eight more weeks.

With contingency plans for all practicals or orals.

That should have been published so that teachers could organise their yearly plans appropriately and work around potential changes.

Instead here we are. With adjustments that are not sufficient in some subjects. With no clear plan for practicals. No further adjustments to papers ready?

It is total incompetence

I don't think the Leaving Certificate is impossible but it needs an extremely robust and organised approach. They would need to announce the approach and contingencies soon.


I think they would need to ensure a very wide range of student choice on a paper and have a contingency paper (or papers) for those who might miss the initial examination due to extenuating circumstances (covid in families, an outbreak in a group etc). I don't think the same paper should be re-used in a situation where the examination might be staggered.

Written examiners meetings would need to be online I would have thought (and secure platform). Examiners might need more time- if covid is an issue in their household.

If it's going ahead- think staffing for the Leaving Certificate would need to have begun or be in the process right now...it's not entirely impossible at all. I haven't been contacted about marking or supervising this year so I'm just wondering when they would plan to do this. I personally think this really could be under way now! Primary staff might consider doing some supervision.

I'm reading reports that SEC is planning a meeting at the end of the month and if this is true, they need to speed up!!

deiseindublin

Treppen wrote: »

If all students get more choice there a danger that the percentage getting full marks goes up. There's only so much you can simplify before affecting the bell curve.

Nobody has said it but surely if the bell curve does what it's supposed it's less relevant how much is cut from the syllabus, or how much choice is given.

I've an LC in the house this year so I'm hanging on to that anyway. Would prefer for my child, and my students, that the exams went ahead. Yes, it's tough for them, but it's fair.

Choochtown

deiseindublin wrote: »

Nobody has said it but surely if the bell curve does what it's supposed it's less relevant how much is cut from the syllabus, or how much choice is given.

I've an LC in the house this year so I'm hanging on to that anyway. Would prefer for my child, and my students, that the exams went ahead. Yes, it's tough for them, but it's fair.

Totally agree Deise.

The only fair thing to do is to allow the Leaving cert exams to go ahead in whatever format possible and let the bell-curve do its job.


Predicted grades are not fair on students or teachers.

Last year teachers were put in the position of perhaps deciding someone's future at the stroke of a pen. If 2 students were both deemed to be the same grade right down to the actual percentage then the teacher had to pick one above the other. In effect this meant in a lot of cases student X got a H3 whilst student Y got a H4 once the magical calculations were done by the department.

That was so wrong. In a lot of cases these students may have been neighbours or even friends or family of the teacher.

To add insult to injury the department then went and broke the agreement by allowing all students to access the information regarding where they were placed by the teacher within the class. Disgraceful!

inbetweentea

Well I certainly agree with the bell curve point but I was thinking more in terms of widening student choice to alleviate anxiety in the approach to exams for the students. But certainty it's true -the curve would play a part.

Treppen

deiseindublin wrote: »

Nobody has said it but surely if the bell curve does what it's supposed it's less relevant how much is cut from the syllabus, or how much choice is given.

I've an LC in the house this year so I'm hanging on to that anyway. Would prefer for my child, and my students, that the exams went ahead. Yes, it's tough for them, but it's fair.

You ll get a skewed bell curve by simplifying. There will be basically no way to apply a proper bell curve once you over simplify or add too much choice.
If questions are over simplified or given extra choices you can't mark those H1s down , once they're 100% correct you can't take it away.

As much as I give out about the dept. I think the SEC really know their stuff when it comes to tweeking the bell curve with questions and marking schemes. They've been fine tuning for decades by adjusting one or two points in the marking scheme to get the curve right.