The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

Zero-Cool · 19-06-2020 6:46pm #1

A thread to openly discuss the full story, thoughts, issues, leaks, etc.

Mods, feel free to close it if unnecessary or apply thread rules.

Grumpypants · 19-06-2020 7:40pm

It's a spoiler thread but let's take it handy and discuss roughly in line with how far people could get without pulling an all nighter.

Maybe let's say the lodge is fairly obtainable in a day, but anything in the last 2/3s should get a spoiler tag for a week or so.

I'm interested in how people felt about "the lodge".

I thought it was pretty badly handled. It is always a sign of weak writing when the only way they can get a big reaction is to knock off a main character. That they couldn't write a story to make Ellie upset enough.

They could have built the Ellie Abby switching for hours, bringing them closer together and closing the gap between who is the good and bad character.

They had a chance to make this a centerpiece and have you invested in the revenge. But conflicted over who is right.

It happens so early it didn't have the impact they probably hoped.

Thecageyone · 19-06-2020 7:46pm

I don't have a Ps4 so can't play it, but been watching streams of it on Twitch, looks good. If they can stream it live, which obviously gives spoilers to anyone watching, then I'm sure this is fine too

johnny_ultimate · 19-06-2020 10:49pm

Mod note: For the time being, I think the first few hours of the game are fair game for this thread. If you haven't played up until 'the lodge' part you probably shouldn't be here! Later game stuff please do spoiler tag for the next little while, we'll go spoiler tag free in a week or so once more people have had a chance to finish the game.

johnny_ultimate · 19-06-2020 10:58pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

It happens so early it didn't have the impact they probably hoped.

(spoilers for the first few hours, it goes without saying)

I've got to say I like that it happens early, to the point I'd barely call it a spoiler (it's the inciting incident for the whole game!) and would've been interesting to see what happened if they allowed that info out a bit earlier.

I think having it happen when it does in a sense releases that fairly clichéd narrative tension of zombie fiction, where you're just waiting for a main character to die (see The Walking Dead). Obviously there are a couple of other potential fatalities here, but getting rid of Joel early focuses the story on Ellie (and Abbie) nearly immediately and complicates the 'big secret' that we know is out there about their relationship. Killing a lead character is always a brute force storytelling move, but the placement here in what's effectively a prologue is interesting.

Whether the game follows through on the potential, I can only wait and see - I've read some very smart critics express some deep reservations about the game (that it's repetitive, unsubtle - not that I expect subtlety from this series - and doesn't really do many interesting things with its themes) so I'm reticent to analyse too much more until I know where they go with it. But yeah I think offing Joel early is a clever enough setup for the game, as it'd have been far more obvious to have his death as the big, climactic beat of the story.

The Raging Bile Duct · 20-06-2020 2:45am

Just past the lodge and I'd have no issue with the offing of Joel so early. I had a feeling it was going to happen in the first few hours as there was little of him in the promo material. I just hope it has a proper conclusion.

Is Abby meant to be the trans character? Because she doesn't look trans to me...

The Raging Bile Duct · 20-06-2020 2:49am

Presumably Joel's death is in relation to his kill em all rescue of Ellie at the end of the first game.

Joshua J · 20-06-2020 5:42pm

So I've just finished it. Good luck to the speed-running community with this one

The ending somewhat saved this game for me. It stirred some sort of emotion that had been lacking throughout. When Joel died I was there with Ellie, ready to go hunt down his killers. But as the game went on and on and the hours piled up, I just got bored. The best part of the first game was the story. They caught lightning in a bottle. The relationship between Ellie and Joel and their journey together is gaming folk lore now. The weakest part on TLOU was the gameplay and the middle 10-15 hours of part 2 is just gameplay.

Some reviewers had said that the game just wasn't fun. I thought they were being overly judgemental and this game wasn't meant to be fun it was a revenge mission so was meant to be bleak and harrowing. But they were right. It is just so so tedious. Spending an hour stealthing and clearing a section of Scars, to then straight into a section with Wolves, clear that. We're done right?. On with the story?. Nope, gotta clear a section with infested now. But twice. Once going up a building and then coming down. Over and over and over again like this. Is it by design?. Did the devs want you to feel like Ellie, like you just didnt care anymore, you just wanted to get done?. I dunno. If they did they succeeded with me anyway.

Another thing that didn't sit right with me was Tommy coming to Dina and Ellies home to tell Ellie he had a lead on Abby. This was not Tommy. He literally went after the Wolves to stop Ellie from going. He wasn't going to until she said she would and made Marie give him a head start so he could get there and keep Ellie out of danger. But it's to show how revenge can twist and distort someone, right?. I mean its hinted his life had fallen apart and that he and Marie are separated. I dunno, felt forced and completely out of character.

Did I hear correctly, that when Ellie freed the slaves at the Rattlers one of them said Abby had been bit?. Was Abby immune like Ellie?. I probably misheard. Anyway, if they had taken the first four hours and the last two hours, scrapped the middle 15 hours and tightened up the story it would have been so much better imo. They wanted it to be an Epic tale I'm sure, but it turned into a slog.

Hard to know where Ellie headed off at the end. I'd like to think she headed back to Jacksonville. Maybe just hit the road. I guess Joel ruined any chance of a happy ending by saving Ellie in the first game.

Zero replayability for me due to a bloated mid game. 7/10.

Zero-Cool · 21-06-2020 9:05am

Had a quick peak in here and good to see there's only discussions about the lodge as i just finished it last night. I was already spoiled that Joel dies but i didn't expect it to be that early. As much as i love Joel, i think it was hugely impactful to kick off the revenge plot. I'm just interested to see why Tommy and Ellie were left alive as the wlf know they will be coming after them.

So obviously the trailers were cleverly edited which i was always a possibility anyway but i wonder if Joel was added as a red herring or if ghost Joel follows you around, interested to find out anyway.

What i thought was superb was the walk around Joel's house. That to me was the true ending to his story. He saved Ellie, settled down in a really nice house, whittled some wood and played some music. I got the sense he was truly happy, if not a bit guilty for his actions.

I thought Dina was gonna die in the lodge but glad she didn't, great chemistry between her and Ellie.

Grumpypants · 21-06-2020 9:43am

I felt Joel had turned into a bit of a doddering old man in the 4 years since the first game. If old age creeps up that fast I'm getting worried

General time line spoilers

The time line jumps around a bit. It goes from present day, back to the first game and the inbetween years. It does a great job of character building and you become far more invested in many more of the people in that Lodge scene.

They are going for the same thing you see in movies and TV that they show you the big event at the start then shift back and build up to it.

But now having the investment, that scene means way more. If it had been mid game it would have been a really conflicted moment. I think it was a missed opportunity. The scene as it is, is simply bad people are bad and we must kill them

20+ hour mark spoiler here

I was actively trying to kill Tommy by this point because my affiliation had moved to Abby and Tommy was hunting me and my friends.

It does a great job of showing how people get locked into their little "tribes" And any outsider is viewed as a threat.

Although it is bleak. I don't get the idea that it is constantly bleak it's just war. There are some really selfless acts of kindness in there too.

It's a bit like Band of Brothers. It's war and horrific, but there's small windows where they see the enemy as human.

The bits where one guy saves the German soldier when the others wanted to kill him. That act of kindness gets people killed but later. Or when they have the German soldiers held prisoner and one is a German from the US. They are chatting and sharing a smoke. He walks away and someone else just guns them all down.

Joshua J · 21-06-2020 2:50pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

I felt Joel had turned into a bit of a doddering old man in the 4 years since the first game. If old age creeps up that fast I'm getting worried

Ending spoiler so dont read if not finished.

I had completely avoided spoilers leading up to release and only after finishing it did I go back and see what all the fuss was about. Tbh the criticisms are not without merit, particularly when it comes to Joel. In part one he was an absolute bad-ass. Strong, confident, authoritative and head strong. He took no sh1t from anyone. But every scene in part 2 he's some weak weepy eyed teenager who gets scolded by Ellie and he's walking around with his tail between his legs. And it's not because he felt guilty, one of the last scenes he tells Ellie that if he had the chance again in the hospital he'd do the same thing. It's just poor writing imo, may as well be a different character for all he had in common with Joel from part 1.

BruteStock · 21-06-2020 5:26pm

Most are in agreement with Angry Joe. It was out of character for Joel to walk haphazardly into a situation that had the potential for an ambush.
It was worse to have him reveal his identity to a bunch of strangers who had him completely surrounded.

johnny_ultimate · 21-06-2020 5:54pm

Well he didn’t ‘walk haphazardly’ into any situation - he rode into shelter during a blizzard to avoid an army of infected. Anyone would be forgiven for taking a breather and letting your guard down after reaching safety.

Similarly, it’s hard to say he acted out of character after four entire years had passed since we last saw the character - four years of peace and stability. Perhaps there’s stuff later in this game flashback-wise that contradicts that, but four years is a very long time for any character, especially after moving from constant, cynical survival mode to a years-long period of relative calm and civility. Someone becoming a bit warmer and more accepting of other people in such a situation seems like a perfectly credible progression to me.

The Raging Bile Duct · 21-06-2020 6:26pm

BruteStock wrote: »

Most are in agreement with Angry Joe. It was out of character for Joel to walk haphazardly into a situation that had the potential for an ambush.
It was worse to have him reveal his identity to a bunch of strangers who had him completely surrounded.

They were being chased by a horde of infected so it hardly gave him time to assess the potential dangers of the group and he then introduced himself and Tommy when they were safe. I can't see the problem with how it was handled.

BruteStock · 21-06-2020 7:22pm

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

They were being chased by a horde of infected so it hardly gave him time to assess the potential dangers of the group and he then introduced himself and Tommy when they were safe. I can't see the problem with how it was handled.

I can see a few. For starters , Abby was a trespasser in the midst of an invasion. Joel who was patrolling the area to protect the settlement , would and should have associated a trespasser to the cause of the clicker invasion.
He would have either let her there to croak , or demanded to know who she was and she was in the area. Thats kinda the point of being on watch. There were many opportunity's to ask the obvious questions.

Abby then informing Joel that she had a gang hiding out in the nearby mansion would have raised even more suspicion.

Upon arriving at the mansion , they are saved by the gang who mow down the perusing clickers with a heavy arsenal of pistols , shotguns an Molotov's.

Now Joel is out-numbed by strangers who are heavily armed and who are hiding in a house they probably shouldn't have been in given its close proximity to Joel's settlement and surrounding lookout posts.

He still has his suspicions that these people might have been responsible for the invasion , so walking into this situation like everything was fine and dandy was totally out of character for him.

mewso · 22-06-2020 3:13pm

I'm a non-console guy so for both TLOU 1 and now 2 I will only see it on youtube which is fine with me since I think Naughty Dog would rather be making movies and should. Their games would have little appeal to me bar good story. I've seen this controversial opening and to be honest I am totally mystified at the outrage not to mention at a loss as to how it equates to wokeness (hate the term) etc.

My prediction based on the beginning, as I have not seen anything after that, would be

that Ellie finds these guys and they turn out to be Fireflies who killed Joel for the hospital wipe out in the last game and the only thing that makes sense story wise (although probably not game play wise considering how many people you are likely to have killed by the end) is that Ellie lets yer one live to end the cycle of violence in a seen it all before move.

To me it's fairly basic writing and the only bad thing about it is that we've seen this kind of thing many times before.

I'm really only posting because I was hoping someone might let me know why this is being accused of being 'woke'.

SomeSayKos · 22-06-2020 4:23pm

My thoughts on the lodge:

For me, in the world of 'the last of us' it makes sense that Joels past would inevitably come back to get him in the end. The guy had done a lot of bad things and killed a lot of people since the outbreak so it felt like it was only a matter of time before someone sought revenge against him.

One of the reasons I loved the first game was because he was a true antihero. I wanted Joel to succeed during the game only because I wanted Ellie to get where she was going safely. Yes, it was bittersweet that two people who had suffered a great deal of loss were able to bond and find a father figure/daughter figure in such a vicious world. It was the strength in the writing that I understood why Joel killed the fireflies and rescued Ellie even though objectively it was arguably the worst thing that had happened in the world since the outbreak. It was pure selfishness. He didn't do it for Ellie, he did it for himself. I played through the first game recently and the end stuck with me because of the amount of people you kill in the hospital before reaching Ellie. To me it would make sense that any firefly not murdered would go to any lengths to find and kill Joel. And a part of me thinks 'fair play to them'.

Also, Ellie wanted her immunity to mean something. She lost her best friend/love interest when she was bitten and her parents were long gone too and Joel robbed her of that opportunity.

So basically the TLDR is that I think Joel got what he deserved....

SomeSayKos · 22-06-2020 4:26pm

Also, I assumed Joel was already dead from the very first reveal of TLOU2. The way ellie was in the house on her own and the way Joel came in from a glowing all white door. My first thought 'oh, I guess Joel is dead in the new one'

J Mysterio · 22-06-2020 5:54pm

Finished the game. Left feeling kind of sad about it, and strangely unfulfilled.

In the end, don't like Ellie so much anymore, loved her in part 1. I think Abby came across better, other than the brutal murder of Joel... But Abby learned from her mistakes, it's not clear Ellie did. I might feel differently if Ellie didnt go after Abby again at the end, but she did, that definitely felt OTT, and was disappointing.

Dissapointed with Tommy too, to approach Ellie about this near game end. Also isn't clear why he couldn't continue to hunt Abby if it was still so important to him. Sure, he had a lame leg, but he could still do the business - he could still ride a horse, and it's clear he was an excellent sniper.

Meh. At the end of the Last of Us, I felt good, at the end of this, just a bit morose.

I also just wanted to 'get through it' about 2/3 through. Particularly after Abby met Yarra and Lev. Just wanted to finish it. I like playing as Abby in Santa Barbara though.

Still, would be interested to know/ see if there is more to come.

J Mysterio · 22-06-2020 6:32pm

Joshua J wrote: »

So I've just finished it. Good luck to the speed-running community with this one
The ending somewhat saved this game for me. It stirred some sort of emotion that had been lacking throughout. When Joel died I was there with Ellie, ready to go hunt down his killers. But as the game went on and on and the hours piled up, I just got bored. The best part of the first game was the story. They caught lightning in a bottle. The relationship between Ellie and Joel and their journey together is gaming folk lore now. The weakest part on TLOU was the gameplay and the middle 10-15 hours of part 2 is just gameplay.

Some reviewers had said that the game just wasn't fun. I thought they were being overly judgemental and this game wasn't meant to be fun it was a revenge mission so was meant to be bleak and harrowing. But they were right. It is just so so tedious. Spending an hour stealthing and clearing a section of Scars, to then straight into a section with Wolves, clear that. We're done right?. On with the story?. Nope, gotta clear a section with infested now. But twice. Once going up a building and then coming down. Over and over and over again like this. Is it by design?. Did the devs want you to feel like Ellie, like you just didnt care anymore, you just wanted to get done?. I dunno. If they did they succeeded with me anyway.

Another thing that didn't sit right with me was Tommy coming to Dina and Ellies home to tell Ellie he had a lead on Abby. This was not Tommy. He literally went after the Wolves to stop Ellie from going. He wasn't going to until she said she would and made Marie give him a head start so he could get there and keep Ellie out of danger. But it's to show how revenge can twist and distort someone, right?. I mean its hinted his life had fallen apart and that he and Marie are separated. I dunno, felt forced and completely out of character.

Did I hear correctly, that when Ellie freed the slaves at the Rattlers one of them said Abby had been bit?. Was Abby immune like Ellie?. I probably misheard. Anyway, if they had taken the first four hours and the last two hours, scrapped the middle 15 hours and tightened up the story it would have been so much better imo. They wanted it to be an Epic tale I'm sure, but it turned into a slog.

Hard to know where Ellie headed off at the end. I'd like to think she headed back to Jacksonville. Maybe just hit the road. I guess Joel ruined any chance of a happy ending by saving Ellie in the first game.

Zero replayability for me due to a bloated mid game. 7/10.

Posted my thoughts before reading yours but pretty much agree with all of that.

Only thing is that

it was Ellie who was bit near the end, not Abby. The guy meant she would have enough time to find Abby before she turned.

J Mysterio · 22-06-2020 6:36pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well he didn’t ‘walk haphazardly’ into any situation - he rode into shelter during a blizzard to avoid an army of infected. Anyone would be forgiven for taking a breather and letting your guard down after reaching safety.

Similarly, it’s hard to say he acted out of character after four entire years had passed since we last saw the character - four years of peace and stability. Perhaps there’s stuff later in this game flashback-wise that contradicts that, but four years is a very long time for any character, especially after moving from constant, cynical survival mode to a years-long period of relative calm and civility. Someone becoming a bit warmer and more accepting of other people in such a situation seems like a perfectly credible progression to me.

Agree. Also, he had just saved Abby's life, so he would surely not have expected a double cross.

SMC92Ian · 22-06-2020 8:04pm

Load of nonsense lads, it had some great parts but forcing me to play as the huar that killed Joel and then making us control her trying to kill Ellie... I mean wtf Naughty Dog were you all off your head making this. I enjoyed bits of it but after halfway through Abby's parts I wanted to just stop, it became a chore, I'm not really a fan of the combat, the story is what I was hear for and by lord was it something. I'd give it about a 5/10.

Grumpypants · 22-06-2020 8:07pm

Spoiler tags FFS

Joshua J · 22-06-2020 9:11pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Posted my thoughts before reading yours but pretty much agree with all of that.

Only thing is that
it was Ellie who was bit near the end, not Abby. The guy meant she would have enough time to find Abby before she turned.

Ah yes of course that makes sense she got bit when she fought the 2 Rattlers. Actually one of few really good scenes that when she pulled your man into the hanging clicker. Really wanted to love this game and waited so long. Oh well.

Joshua J · 22-06-2020 9:15pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Finished the game. Left feeling kind of sad about it, and strangely unfulfilled.
In the end, don't like Ellie so much anymore, loved her in part 1. I think Abby came across better, other than the brutal murder of Joel... But Abby learned from her mistakes, it's not clear Ellie did. I might feel differently if Ellie didnt go after Abby again at the end, but she did, that definitely felt OTT, and was disappointing.

Dissapointed with Tommy too, to approach Ellie about this near game end. Also isn't clear why he couldn't continue to hunt Abby if it was still so important to him. Sure, he had a lame leg, but he could still do the business - he could still ride a horse, and it's clear he was an excellent sniper.

Meh. At the end of the Last of Us, I felt good, at the end of this, just a bit morose.

I also just wanted to 'get through it' about 2/3 through. Particularly after Abby met Yarra and Lev. Just wanted to finish it. I like playing as Abby in Santa Barbara though.

Still, would be interested to know/ see if there is more to come.

There were parts that I just sprinted through the enemies just to clear it to get to the end. Shouldn't be like that.

SMC92Ian · 22-06-2020 10:04pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

Spoiler tags FFS

What? This is the spoiler thread?

johnny_ultimate · 22-06-2020 10:21pm

SMC92Ian wrote: »

What? This is the spoiler thread?

There’s a very clear note near the top of the thread about what should and shouldn’t be behind spoiler tags for the time being.

SomeSayKos · 23-06-2020 12:27pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Meh. At the end of the Last of Us, I felt good, at the end of this, just a bit morose.

Just out of interest, why did you feel good at the end of the first game? I thought the ending of the first game was really dark and sad because Joel had done dreadful things and then lied to Ellies' face. I was really bummed out at the end of it, just like I was at the end of this one

J Mysterio · 23-06-2020 12:47pm

SomeSayKos wrote: »

Just out of interest, why did you feel good at the end of the first game? I thought the ending of the first game was really dark and sad because Joel had done dreadful things and then lied to Ellies' face. I was really bummed out at the end of it, just like I was at the end of this one

I guess it was that - despite everything - there seemed to be hope for them 'going forward'. Ellie and Joel would live and they would settle somewhere. There was that moment with the sun coming out, and the giraffe walking around. It was a 'life goes on' moment - hopeful. There was an acceptance that the world is as it is, but there are good moments and it can get better, particularly if people who care about each other work together.

Joel lied to Ellie, yes, but that was a 'white lie' for me. Something that a parent would do for the benefit of a child. I didn't think Joel was wrong. He was driving her away from the disaster they escaped from, and to an undetermined, but presumably better future.

That's my memory looking back anyway. It was a number of years ago. There doesn't seem to be that same hope after TLOU2, not for Ellie anyway. She is a haunted, tormented soul, moreso than before, and has arguably ruined her relationship with her remaining friends which aren't dead. Something is broken in her, literally and metaphorically. I think her playing the guitar at the end illustrated that - she couldn't play the tune properly anymore (with the loss of her fingers).

There probably is some hope for Abby and Lev, as they will inevitably join with the remaining Firerfiles (assuming Abby doesn't succumb to her seemingly serious injuries). But TLOU2 just ended on a much more bleak note for me.

In TLOU, Joel was fighting for something positive - for Ellie, for a cure. In TLOU2, Ellie was just consumed with hate and anger, and took it out on everyone. She became selfish and unlikable, and her actions led to the deaths of many of her friends and destroyed her relationships. As Abby said, she had 'allowed her to live, and she ruined it'. And this happened again. Ellie going to Santa Barbara was too much

Penn · 23-06-2020 4:59pm

BruteStock wrote: »

I can see a few. For starters , Abby was a trespasser in the midst of an invasion. Joel who was patrolling the area to protect the settlement , would and should have associated a trespasser to the cause of the clicker invasion.
He would have either let her there to croak , or demanded to know who she was and she was in the area. Thats kinda the point of being on watch. There were many opportunity's to ask the obvious questions.

Abby then informing Joel that she had a gang hiding out in the nearby mansion would have raised even more suspicion.

Upon arriving at the mansion , they are saved by the gang who mow down the perusing clickers with a heavy arsenal of pistols , shotguns an Molotov's.

Now Joel is out-numbed by strangers who are heavily armed and who are hiding in a house they probably shouldn't have been in given its close proximity to Joel's settlement and surrounding lookout posts.

He still has his suspicions that these people might have been responsible for the invasion , so walking into this situation like everything was fine and dandy was totally out of character for him.

I disagree. It's been almost 25 years since the outbreak began. The idea that there are groups, fairly well-armed and experienced at taking out clickers etc, travelling place to place either looking for supplies or settlements and shacking up in abandoned buildings (and fortifying them as much as possible while they are there)... That's all completely reasonable imo. Obviously if they showed up at the gates of Jackson it wouldn't be a case of "Come on in, folks, make yourself at home". We saw that in TLOU1 when Joel and Ellie first arrived there.

But a new pretty small group appearing on the outskirts of their town that they run into as an emergency situation, I don't think it's an issue that Joel & Tommy said their names. After all, what would be the chances that they'd have any idea who Joel was or what he'd done? The Fireflies were mostly dead or disbanded. There'd be no reason to give a fake name because he's just "Joel".

Given the size of the settlement in Jackson, it's probable that over the years they've taken in more people or small groups.

You can pick apart small things like that all day and for every decision he made in the first game. He told his name to Henry & Sam during the first game too but no one complained about that. Things like that are only considered bad when they make things go wrong, but that's only with the benefit of hindsight. There was no legitimate reason why Joel wouldn't have told them his name.

BruteStock · 23-06-2020 6:51pm

Penn wrote: »

He told his name to Henry & Sam during the first game too but no one complained about that.

Joel was about to beat Henry to death when he first encountered him. It was actually Ellie who blurted out Joel's name when she saw Sam appear with a gun.

When Henry got up he asked - "I don't think I caught your name , was it Joel?"

Ellie answers first by introducing herself and that clearly unsettles Joel. Joel never says his name and he swiftly changes the topic by asking Henry if he's by himself or with others.
Joel got straight to the point by asking the the relevant questions and ignoring Henry's question about his name.

Joel is again put on edge moments later when Ellie requests they should all work together.

Key takeaways from this scene
- Joel isn't too keen on revealing his name
- He has concerns about groups of strangers
- He's slow to trust new acquaintances

If the Joel in the sequel was true to the real Joel , he would have questioned Abby before they got to the mansion and upon hearing a gang was there waiting its unlikely he would have even went there. Its more true to his character that he would have brought Abby with him to another location. Its logical he would have had another recourse , rather than the one that led him to meet his maker.

johnny_ultimate · 23-06-2020 7:16pm

BruteStock wrote: »

Its logical he would have had another recourse , rather than the one that led him to meet his maker.

Even more logical: to happily accept an offer of safety and refuge nearby when you're being swarmed and overcome by an army of monsters

The urgency and instinctual split-second decision that had to be made in order to come out of an immediately dangerous situation alive makes perfect sense to me. Never for a second while playing the game did I doubt that it's precisely what almost anybody would do in the same situation. There was no time or indeed opportunity for considered decision-making.

Grumpypants · 23-06-2020 8:00pm

You also have to consider that it is set after years of relative peace too. Look at their house, the town. It is a small farming community. Yeah they ride out and keep watch but the waring factions are not an immediate threat.

They often have small groups stop, stock up and move on.

I don't have any real issue with it. Yeah I would have liked Joel as a character for longer. But I still really enjoyed it regardless.

If it was just Joel and Ellie on another 30 hour bin moving adventure everyone would have been moaning that it was just a re skinned DLC.

BeerWolf · 23-06-2020 8:15pm

Are people bombing this game only because Joel dies? I thought it was pretty good.

Abby was pretty justified in seeking revenge against just Joel, after he killed her father and a whole bunch of Fireflies... probably relatives of her friends as well. Meanwhile Ellie was so blinded by revenge she killed all of Abby's friends and pooch Alice, worst still knowing why Abby did it!, still went after Abby twice despite being spared twice along with Tommy...

Ellie really annoyed me, yet for some reason people defend her and want Abby dead regardless of Abby's completely justified actions. Annoys me more so how she never puts pristine guitars back into their cases left out to rot! :mad:

Blind Fanboyism sucks.

SMC92Ian · 23-06-2020 9:00pm

Ellie didn't know did she? Also I was pissed we never got a straight up line of Joel saying why he done it, say he loves her or something.

J Mysterio · 23-06-2020 9:40pm

bloodless_coup wrote: »

Too much transgender

Gtfo

Sandor Clegane · 23-06-2020 10:08pm

Just finished it today.

It'll take me a while to digest but first impressions are it was a bit of a mess, tbh id of been happier with a straight up revenge story of Ellie mascaraing her way through the Wolves to then brutally kill Abby, end of.

I felt playing as the two over complicated the whole thing.

It felt like a grind to get through, it had a lot of fluff that didn't need to be there, it was very drawn out and I was glad to be finished it.

Yeah, disappointed tbh.

johnny_ultimate · 23-06-2020 10:13pm

Mod note: To be 100% clear (the posts in question have been deleted), we will not tolerate any bigotry - trolling or otherwise - in this forum.

BruteStock · 23-06-2020 10:46pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Even more logical: to happily accept an offer of safety and refuge nearby when you're being swarmed and overcome by an army of monsters

The urgency and instinctual split-second decision that had to be made in order to come out of an immediately dangerous situation alive makes perfect sense to me. Never for a second while playing the game did I doubt that it's precisely what almost anybody would do in the same situation. There was no time or indeed opportunity for considered decision-making.

Thats if Joel thought the newly occupied mansion was his best and only bet for safety and refuge. He could have went to any of the nearby lookout posts , or better yet , ride on to a safe locale where he can gather his thoughts and establish who Abby is and why the was sneaking around the settlement.

But riding to the mansion isn't explicitly out of character as walking lackadaisical into a house of heavily armed strangers and not thinking to himself that they might be hostile.

Its also not just about Joel , he's entrusted with the safety of the camp , there's other involved , particularly the safety of Ellie s , so Joel either cocking his gun or telling Tommy to be on guard is the survivalist behavior you would naturally expect from him.

Ftr , Joel punching his ticket was no shock to me , i knew it was going to happen years ago.
A well written send-off that didn't rely on plot contrivances would have been acceptable , but ending Joel in an unsatisfying and non-believable manner could have been Neil's intention

Penn · 23-06-2020 11:19pm

Over the halfway point, so will spoiler tag for this.

Don't mind playing as Abby, that's fine. But I hate when games do this and knock your skills back. I've lost most of the useful skills I put points into for Ellie like listening distance. Have to worry about carrying shivs now too.

In terms of story, I get you're supposed to feel horrified at killing the pregnant woman as Ellie. I felt more horrified at making her climb ropes and jump off ledges as Abby.

SMC92Ian · 24-06-2020 1:24am

Penn wrote: »

Over the halfway point, so will spoiler tag for this.
Don't mind playing as Abby, that's fine. But I hate when games do this and knock your skills back. I've lost most of the useful skills I put points into for Ellie like listening distance. Have to worry about carrying shivs now too.

In terms of story, I get you're supposed to feel horrified at killing the pregnant woman as Ellie. I felt more horrified at making her climb ropes and jump off ledges as Abby.

It's mental how she was just let out into the field lol

Kirby · 24-06-2020 4:41am

SMC92Ian wrote: »

It's mental how she was just let out into the field lol

Yeah that bothered me too. I get that they were trying to make a point that pregnant women shouldn't be coddled and wrapped in bubble wrap but they went too far there to try and make the point. It defied belief.

Dina was early along but Mel was huge. Nobody responsible would allow somebody that pregnant out of the stadium in a world where both infected and religous zealouts want to kill you. And what responsible mother would risk it? It's nuts.

It's at that point that "Women Power! Rawr!" removes some of the reality of the game.

As for Joel, I figured he was brown bread years ago at the e3 reveal. He entered the house with golden light behind him. Twas obvious. And I have no issue with how it was done. He let his guard down and paid the price for it. And lets be under no illusions here, what Joel did to the Fireflies at the hospital was horrific. Tess said it best in the first game, "We're sh*tty people Joel!". Joel did some bad sh*t and it caught up with him. The bill comes due.

Midgame spoilers from here.

I do think Neil greatly misjudged his audience though. Some of this seems very tone deaf. The idea of playing as Abby ACTIVELY trying to kill Ellie was stupid. In my fight with Ellie she blew my head off and I got a "Game Over" screen and said aloud "Okay, I'm fine with it. Good job Ellie!" Ofcourse it reloaded from the checkpoint and had me try again. I'd come to understand Abby at that point and sympathize with her so good job......but to have the player try and kill Ellie was a mistep.

You've made your point. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. Revenge has far reaching consequences. There are two sides to every conflict. It's easy to see My Tribe versus Your Tribe and get caught up in that. But having the player try to kill Ellie was only going to piss people off. That part should have stayed a cutscene. Or perhaps have Abby get a few licks in and then switch the players perspective to Ellie for the rest of the fight.

Overall I really enjoyed the game. I love the stealth aspect and using all the tools you have at your disposal. Gameplay wise its a big improvement on the first game. Being able to prone through grass, leave bombs around, replacing shiv doors with puzzle doors, new infected types and making stalkers invisible to listen mode, adding dogs to track you, etc. All good additions. Some people don't enjoy the gameplay but I love it.

As for the story, I enjoyed that too. But as much as the original? I adored the story in the first one. It's one of my favourite games ever. Maybe I need more time to digest this one but having just finished it last night....I liked it. But I didn't love it. And that's disappointing I guess.

Grumpypants · 24-06-2020 8:38am

This bottom part contains almost end game spoilers.

It's mad that people are so fixed on Joel and Ellie. They are petty, cruel, mass murdering psychopaths. They murdered Abby's dad, a decent kind person, a doctor who was saving lives and had to make a horrible ethical decision, but one that would save the human race.

Abby lost her Dad, if Ellie is justified in her rampage then Abby is equally if not more justified. Joel was at this point someone she wouldn't even talk to.

But unlike Ellie, Abby just wanted Joel. She let Ellie and Tommy go. Because unlike Ellie and Joel she is a pretty decent person.

Ellie kills all her friends, the body bags are stacking up in a container, she lost her childhood friend Owen and his pregnant wife.

All the time she puts her life in danger to save two kids that should be "enemies" That Ellie wouldn't have blinked before killing.

She let Ellie and Tommy go because her revenge was purely for the one person who killed her dad, not everyone he ever knew. She let them both go again, along with Dina later. And then when Ellie has her life with a nice house, and baby. She is still such a piece of **** she leaves Dina again to go after Abby.

Naughty Dog did a great job in showing how the players loved characters they should be repulsed by. Their whole point is how people in their tribe justify the horrible acts of their tribe.

And now you have stacks of players raging that "their favorite characters" didn't get to go on another murder spree.

Kinda proves the whole narrative was on point.

BruteStock · 24-06-2020 11:06am

LoL@ Jerry Anderson being a kind and decent person. Just because the game goes out if its way to portray him as a nice guy (to make the player sympathise with Abby) , it does not distract from the fact he was about to dissect a child for a cure that may or may not have made any difference.
Marlene casts doubt on whether he would have done the same if it was Abby , and he probably wouldn't have , as no father would offer up their child as a slab of meat to be used in medical trials.

The fact Jerry discussed his medical findings with a bandit in Marlene , rather than a panel of experts , kinda tells you his decision can't be trusted.
The right thing to do would be to study Ellie over time , run tests etc. Jerry was planning on opening her up within hours of seeing her. Any rational father or father-figure would have done what Joel did.
Besides , Jerry isn't the only doctor left in the world. There was potential for Eille to see many more scientists and doctors down the line. It wasn't the decision of one man to determine Ellie's fate.

Furthermore, tackling the spore problem with with some form of chemical spray would probably be a better solution , as testing , manufacturing and deploying a vaccine in that would is not plausible in the slightest. Its not like its human vs the infected. Humanity is divided up into multiple sections and they are all in conflict with each other.

Independent critical thought is required for a situation like this as neither decision was truly the right one. Its an ambiguous outcome designed to provoke debate.
The sequel on the other hand isn't at all subtle in how it wants the player to chose allegiances.

Penn · 24-06-2020 11:16am

BruteStock wrote: »

LoL@ Jerry Anderson being a kind and decent person. Just because the game goes out if its way to portray him as a nice guy (to make the player sympathise with Abby) , it does not distract from the fact he was about to dissect a child for a cure that may or may not have made any difference.
Marlene casts doubt on whether he would have done the same if it was Abby , and he probably wouldn't have , as no father would offer up their child as a slab of meat to be used in medical trials.

The fact Jerry discussed his medical findings with a bandit in Marlene , rather than a panel of experts , kinda tells you his decision can't be trusted.
The right thing to do would be to study Ellie over time , run tests etc. Jerry was planning on opening her up within hours of seeing her. Any rational father or father-figure would have done what Joel did.
Besides , Jerry isn't the only doctor left in the world. There was potential for Eille to see many more scientists and doctors down the line. It wasn't the decision of one man to determine Ellie's fate.

Furthermore, tackling the spore problem with with some form of chemical spray would probably be a better solution , as testing , manufacturing and deploying a vaccine in that would is not plausible in the slightest. Its not like its human vs the infected. Humanity is divided up into multiple sections and they are all in conflict with each other.

Independent critical thought is required for a situation like this as neither decision was truly the right one. Its an ambiguous outcome designed to provoke debate.
The sequel on the other hand isn't at all subtle in how it wants the player to chose allegiances.

Marlene was the leader of the Fireflies, not just some random Firefly bandit. Jerry was obviously the most senior and experienced doctor trying to find the cure and so with his death (and the significant losses incurred by the Fireflies), all that was lost. There was no panel of experts to consult, the Fireflies were a large but fringe group, and one of the only groups actively searching for a cure. They also did some testing to find that that the key to studying why Ellie was immune lied in her brain as that's where the virus attacks but hers was stopping it.

Ultimately it was Marlene's decision. If Jerry wanted to do it but Marlene didn't, it wouldn't have happened. Marlene was trusting Jerry that it was the right thing to do and so it was her decision as leader of the Fireflies. Given her connection and bond with Ellie, that shows how desperate they were to find a cure and how this appeared to be the only way. Marlene also talked about how many losses the Fireflies had been incurring and how they were verging on being disbanded anyway. Eliie was their last chance.

SomeSayKos · 24-06-2020 11:21am

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Ellie didn't know did she? Also I was pissed we never got a straight up line of Joel saying why he done it, say he loves her or something.

Did you not play until the end of the game?

SomeSayKos · 24-06-2020 12:19pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Joel lied to Ellie, yes, but that was a 'white lie' for me. Something that a parent would do for the benefit of a child. I didn't think Joel was wrong. He was driving her away from the disaster they escaped from, and to an undetermined, but presumably better future.

I understand why Joel lied to Ellie about this, because he wanted her to live as he loved her but he also lied because he knew she'd be angry with him for what he did. His lie was ultimately a selfish one. I don't think it was for her protection, it was for his protection from reality because he was desperate for something good in his life since the death of his daughter.
And what I loved about the ending of the first game was that when Joel lied to Ellie you could tell she doubted his answer. That doubt obviously festered for the years since the first game and I think it's what turned Ellie into such a cold and angry person. That was my take away anyways. The fact that she returned to Salt Lake City because she knew deep down that Joel wasn't being honest with her is proof that it had been driving her mad and she needed to know the truth.

What I really liked about TLOU2 was that there was a whole range of emotions going on with the main characters. I think Ellie's lust for revenge was interesting because it was partly about avenging Joel's murder but it was also because of her own guilt over how she had treated Joel since he admitted that he lied to her. She obviously loved him but was also hurt by him and I think that's what set her off on such a destructive course. It's hard for her to reconcile her love for him with the terrible things that he did.

SMC92Ian · 24-06-2020 1:44pm

SomeSayKos wrote: »

Did you not play until the end of the game?

I finished it 2 days ago.

Sandor Clegane · 24-06-2020 1:59pm

SMC92Ian wrote: »

I finished it 2 days ago.

Joel basically says he loves her,

he says the lord gave him a second chance that day and if e had to do it all over again, he would.

At least thats what I think he's referring to.

SMC92Ian · 24-06-2020 4:56pm

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

Joel basically says he loves her,
he says the lord gave him a second chance that day and if e had to do it all over again, he would.

At least thats what I think he's referring to.

It's not the same, I just found it a bit lacking. After 4 years they didn't say it.

Penn · 24-06-2020 5:05pm

SMC92Ian wrote: »

It's not the same, I just found it a bit lacking. After 4 years they didn't say it.

To be honest,

I would have cringed if they just outright said it like that. He showed he loved her through his actions. It's one of those things that really doesn't need to be said.

The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

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