Shannon airport

Skyhawk684 · 29-01-2012 3:23pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Easyjet are NOT operating from WAT, the press relase is to offer connections to passengers flying with AER ARANN on the route.

Ah my apologies, the article that I read made it seem like they were!

Alfasud · 18-02-2012 1:44am

Shannon Airport should be used for the Chinese Hub at Athlone. In fact it should be built close to the airport

source · 18-02-2012 1:03pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

There is also another point to be considered. Depending on the time of day the flight leaves at, there is a check in time to be factored in to the travel time. A flight leaving Shannon at 10 am to the States may well mean being at the airport between 7 and 8. To acheive that arrival time with a journey that's 3 hours means leaving at 4 am, or earlier if a longer journey, or it means a night stop, and what about the scenario of a family member dropping someone off and going home again afterwards. A day's travel to get someone to the airport? I don't think so,

While I agree with most of your post, I take have to disagree with this very Dublincentric point you've made. The majority of the population have to do this every day at the moment.

A bit of anecdotal evidence, My folks live in Sunderland, I live in Limerick. In order to get over to see him, I have to drive to DUB to fly ryanair to Newcastle. So I have to leave 5 hours before the flight time (to allow for traffic depending on time of flight(2-3 hour drive then allowing check-in time)) in order to take a 50min flight. When there's a perfectly good airport 15 minutes by HQDC from my house.

This happens every day with people from all over the country, so there's approx 3 million people in this country who have to travel to Dublin for the majority of flights out of this country. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Dublin folk would have to do similar in order to fly transatlantic.

roundymac · 18-02-2012 3:04pm

source wrote: »

While I agree with most of your post, I take have to disagree with this very Dublincentric point you've made. The majority of the population have to do this every day at the moment.

A bit of anecdotal evidence, My folks live in Sunderland, I live in Limerick. In order to get over to see him, I have to drive to DUB to fly ryanair to Newcastle. So I have to leave 5 hours before the flight time (to allow for traffic depending on time of flight(2-3 hour drive then allowing check-in time)) in order to take a 50min flight. When there's a perfectly good airport 15 minutes by HQDC from my house.

This happens every day with people from all over the country, so there's approx 3 million people in this country who have to travel to Dublin for the majority of flights out of this country. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Dublin folk would have to do similar in order to fly transatlantic.

Why not pop down to Cork, Jet2 to Newcastle on a friday night, return on a sunday night. Much less stressful than going to Dublin. On the T/A side of things we have it in reverse, we have to go to SNN, Delta have changed the times this year, made their times similer to United's. Arriving at 0745, departing at 0925. Used be arr 0925, depart 1105. It will probably mean an over night in SNN for us.

xflyer · 18-02-2012 3:27pm

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Dublin folk would have to do similar in order to fly transatlantic.

Seriously? Isn't that taking the anti Dublin bias of so many people a bit too far? In the real world Dublin and the East coast is the most densely populated part of the country. It's also the destination of choice for many of the inbound passengers.

The reason Shannon doesn't have the choice of routes is the simple lack of population. It's an accident of geography that it's there at all. It was needed then, not so much now.

roundymac · 18-02-2012 3:35pm

MOL has stated in the past that the airports used by "Ryanatlantic" would be Dublin, Stanstead, and I think Frankfurt Hahn. There might have been one or two others.

highlydebased · 18-02-2012 4:21pm

:rolleyes: Not the Shannon debate

source · 18-02-2012 6:43pm

roundymac wrote: »

Why not pop down to Cork, Jet2 to Newcastle on a friday night, return on a sunday night. Much less stressful than going to Dublin. On the T/A side of things we have it in reverse, we have to go to SNN, Delta have changed the times this year, made their times similer to United's. Arriving at 0745, departing at 0925. Used be arr 0925, depart 1105. It will probably mean an over night in SNN for us.

Unfortunately anytime I've been over doesn't coincide with a weekend so I'm stuck with flying Ryanair from DUB, I was just using my experience as an example with which to illustrate a point.

xflyer wrote: »

Seriously? Isn't that taking the anti Dublin bias of so many people a bit too far? In the real world Dublin and the East coast is the most densely populated part of the country. It's also the destination of choice for many of the inbound passengers.

The reason Shannon doesn't have the choice of routes is the simple lack of population. It's an accident of geography that it's there at all. It was needed then, not so much now.

I'm not being anti Dublin, I think the airport is a fantastic facility and I actually enjoy going to Dublin, I like it as a city too. My issue is the fact that Shannon isn't getting the routes due to a number of factors, High landing charges (higher than Dublin) set by DAA for one, Ryanair pulling out of Shannon due to the tourist tax on top of the high landing charges for another. Yes Dublin and the counties immediately surrounding it are densely populated, however Shannon caters for a much larger area, the population of which have to travel to Dublin in order to fly because Shannon remains under utilised.

In the counties immediately surrounding Shannon Airport, there is a population of approximately 700,000 people, Shannon could very well service the needs of these people and provide a bit of relief to Dublin Airport. As I've already stated Dublin is a fantastic airport and needs to be as big as it is due to the fact that 1 it is in the capital city of the country, and 2 it has a large population to service, but it doesn't have to be the only airport in the country, which if things keep going the way they're going then it will be.

I think I've shown that the lack of routes has nothing to do with a lack of population, the figure I've quoted takes into account, Limerick, Tipperary, Offaly, Clare and half of Galway, as they would be closer (travel time) to Shannon by road than Knock. I didn't even include the people living in North Kerry who would be closer to Shannon than Cork.

There's a lot more to the demise of Shannon than a dismissive comment about population figures.

As for the comment on people choosing to fly into Dublin, that is true to a certain extent, but only because they're not given the choice of another airport. It's easy to say they chose to fly to Dublin when they're told they can only fly to Dublin. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are visiting this country only for the west coast and they're forced to travel into Dublin and then spend quite a bit of money getting across the country. These people alone would be more than enough to justify Shannon's existence, add onto that a decent service to the UK and Europe for the 700,000 people living nearby and everyone is happy.

While It's not a huge ordeal for me to travel to Dublin (Living a mile from the M7) imagine how it must be for someone living on the east coast of Clare, First they have to drive for an hour or so to get near a road for Dublin and then they have the trip to Dublin, If Shannon was a viable choice these people would choose it over Dublin every time. As it stands now, there is no choice. Unless you're going to London or the US then don't bother, even considering Shannon.

Irish Steve · 18-02-2012 9:57pm

source wrote: »

While I agree with most of your post, I take have to disagree with this very Dublincentric point you've made. The majority of the population have to do this every day at the moment.

If you were to read some of the posts I've made over the last couple of months or so, I am NOT Dublin centric, despite living only 15 minutes from the place. There is a VERY clear role for Shannon, IF, and it's a very BIG IF, the relevant people in the right places get off their backsides and promote the things that Shannon could be good for. The problem is that they are not, and we've seen the result.

As it stands at the moment, partly through historic idiocy, partly through the range of aircraft 30 and 40 years ago, and partly through parish pump politics that have bedevilled any sensible ideas for longer than I care to think about, Shannon has too big an infrastructure for the level of passengers that want to use the place, which means that any airline looking to use Shannon gets hammered costs wise in order to try and meet the cost of running the place.

If Shannon was being built now, it probably wouldn't get built at all, or it would be the size of Knock, or Exeter, or Bournemouth, or Southampton, or Cardiff, or Liverpool, or........., the list is endless, whereas it has the longest runway in Ireland, and a terminal that's massive in terms of the size of terminals in most of the other airports I've mentioned, all of which have significantly more flights per day than Shannon. OK, not all my list have Transatlantic flights, because they have other places not far from them that are larger again, which serve the long haul market, like Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester, Birmingham, etc.

With proper promotion, and infrastructure around it, both of which are sadly lacking at the moment, the Shannon AREA, note AREA, not just the airport, could be a hub for a large part of not just Ireland, but for a significant part of Europe, as fuel prices increase, and become more difficult to obtain, for both air and sea transport. It needs massive investment to make it happen, and you can bet that it will have to be fought for tooth and nail to get it from Europe, but in the long term, that is the way to go, and if it happens, there won't be any need to complain about lack of business, if anything, the opposite will be the case, and there will be complaints that the area is too busy.

roundymac · 19-02-2012 12:38pm

highlydebased wrote: »

:rolleyes: Not the Shannon debate

I was ruling SNN out of the running. Some people were hinting that MOL might start his T/A operation at SNN.

roundymac · 19-02-2012 12:51pm

The road network around the Shannon Limerick area is still quite poor in places. The N20 between Limerick and Cork is nothing short of a disgrace, it is now easier to go to Dublin via the M8/M7 than to Limerick/SNN from Cork.

source · 19-02-2012 1:48pm

roundymac wrote: »

The road network around the Shannon Limerick area is still quite poor in places. The N20 between Limerick and Cork is nothing short of a disgrace, it is now easier to go to Dublin via the M8/M7 than to Limerick/SNN from Cork.

While the M8 is an easier road it takes 2hours 40 mins to get from Patrick St to Dublin Airport, conversely on the N20 which granted isn't a great road, it takes an hour less to travel from Patrick Street to Shannon Airport.

Besides it doesn't really matter about Cork as they have their own airport, which is why I didn't count the population of Cork, when coming up with the figure of 700,000 people, that I earlier stated would be in the area immediately surrounding Shannon.

roundymac · 19-02-2012 4:10pm

I was talking about T/A out of SNN, Patrick ST to Snn in less than an hour, you'r joking, not within the speed limit any way.

source · 19-02-2012 5:20pm

roundymac wrote: »

I was talking about T/A out of SNN, Patrick ST to Snn in less than an hour, you'r joking, not within the speed limit any way.

I said an hour less than Patrick st to Dublin which is at least 2:40, so what I actually said was 1:40.

roundymac · 19-02-2012 5:43pm

Right, got you, but basicly the point I'm making is that is now less stressful to go to Dublin for a T/A. Before we would have never thought about anything but SNN.

Hogzy · 19-02-2012 6:10pm

roundymac wrote: »

Right, got you, but basicly the point I'm making is that is now less stressful to go to Dublin for a T/A. Before we would have never thought about anything but SNN.

It maybe less stressful but for me Shannon is still the better option primarily because it costs me less in fuel to go to Shannon from Cork City than it does to go to Dublin.
That extra hour is also nice to have when returning from a long haul journey. There is nothing worse than arriving into Dublin airport early in the morning to face M50 and Newlands Cross Traffic and then have at least 2hrs on the motorway. If the traffic is bad enough you could easily spend 1.5hrs getting from Dublin Airport to just Naas.

EDIT: and btw, unless there is no traffic at all and you are breaking speed limits. There is no way you could get from Cork City to Dublin airport in 2 and a half hours. Newlands Cross definetly but you'd need another 20 mins on the M50 before you'd be in the airport car park.

Comhrá · 19-02-2012 6:55pm

Apart from travel distances involved, a dep. or arrival to/from Shannon is generally a far more relaxed affair than Dublin. Car park to dep. building in Shannon is a 150 meter walk and from my last memory of a mid-summer departure from Dublin a few years back, it wasn't a very pleasant affair.

Smaller, less crowded airports like Shannon are generally more user-friendly and
can make for a much less stressful trip. Give me Shannon any day.

Suits · 20-02-2012 2:46am

On the subject of "RyanAtlantic" I believe it was stated in a media document in the "Brainchild" stage that MOL hoped to go from Dublin, Stansted, Frankfurt and a location in Eastern Europe to be decided upon.

I used to travel a lot to the states to see family and to be honest it kind of biased my view of SNN. Shannon was a pain in the unmentionables for the T/A traveller. You leave DUB at 11 and arrive in SNN 15 mins later. You clear immigration(fair enough) and are then delayed 1-2 hours(this happened on a lot of my trips) by people at the duty free!!:mad:(and AL cant offload their bags so have to wait).
You then head off to the states and have to spend the 1st 3 days of you holiday apologising to your relatives who had to wait 2 hours in arrivals for you!:mad:
You then come home and while knackered tired you have to get off the plane and wander round SNN(which evidently isnt heated at this hour of the morning) while locals or people off delayed T/A flights or cancelled/overbooked commuter flights are slotted into empty seats(another hour delay)...you then fly a whole 15 mins to DUB. I remember in 2005 we estimated we could have driven the rest of the way to Dublin quicker than it took to fly on.

It's that experiance in Irish aviation that colours opinion of SNN!

Truth is it needs an angle if it is to survive...what that angle is...I dont know!

bladeruner · 20-02-2012 1:22pm

Imho ,
Shannon should probably focus on becoming a cargo hub but this needs big picture thinking, something were not good at in Ireland.
It needs to be developed in association with a port and the Shannon free enterprise zone.
If it wants pax , it needs a train from limerick to Galway that stops at the terminal in Shannon and many major towns /villages along the way.
Prestwick (a similiar airport from many perspectives ) has only worked for Ryanair due to the train from Glasgow to Ayr every 30 minutes.
Initial cost benefit analysis might suggest that a Shannon train would never pay for itself but this could reinvigorate the western side of the country with employment and associated social benefits.

Nok1a · 20-02-2012 2:34pm

bladeruner wrote: »

Imho ,
Shannon should probably focus on becoming a cargo hub but this needs big picture thinking, something were not good at in Ireland.
It needs to be developed in association with a port and the Shannon free enterprise zone.
If it wants pax , it needs a train from limerick to Galway that stops at the terminal in Shannon and many major towns /villages along the way.
Prestwick (a similiar airport from many perspectives ) has only worked for Ryanair due to the train from Glasgow to Ayr every 30 minutes.
Initial cost benefit analysis might suggest that a Shannon train would never pay for itself but this could reinvigorate the western side of the country with employment and associated social benefits.

Its hard to ever see it succeeding as a large cargo hub. The advantage of a large runway capable of taking any size plane is outweighed by location both internationally and domestically.

Intl:
-what's the advantage of having a transatlantic cargo plane land in Shannon if very little of the cargo will end up at this location? As is done at the moment, the cargo should be sorted at the departure point, ie in Fed Exs case they ship all their European bound cargo from the us into Memphis, then it is put on the appropriate European destined plane,
-Shannon is in the middle of nowhere, the west coast of Ireland with no rail links and as for the sea sailing there from Europe would never work if the cargo was airfreighted in the first place. Whereas an airport like east midlands in the UK which is DHLs UK hub is located in the middle of the UK so its very easy for a transatlantic plane to land, put some of the cargo onto other uk bound planes and put some of it onto trucks to be delivered by road both north and south of the airport.

Domestic:
-Majority of mail/cargo out of Ireland goes from Dublin. its both very expensive(truck/driver/tolls/diesel etc) and time consuming to go from Dublin to Shannon and all the major international couriers already have large modern bases in Dublin. Also if a company is paying extra for a courier then time will be lost if it take 3+ hrs in rush hour to get a van/truck from Dublin to Shannon, meaning earlier pick up times meaning lost customers.

Blue Punto · 20-02-2012 2:39pm

With the night restrictions that are being forced upon Cargo operators at the airports in Germany focusing Shannon as a new Cargo Hub for Europe wouldnt be a bad idea although it would cause its own complexities at the same time and alot of the cargo flights involve night operations which Im sure would cause more problems from locals,but we need to start thinking outside the envelope and make ourselves attractive to new buisness which is a major stumbling block in this country as the people who make decisions seem unable to do so correctly

Suits · 20-02-2012 3:04pm

bladeruner wrote: »

Imho ,
If it wants pax , it needs a train from limerick to Galway that stops at the terminal in Shannon and many major towns /villages along the way.
Prestwick (a similiar airport from many perspectives ) has only worked for Ryanair due to the train from Glasgow to Ayr every 30 minutes.
Initial cost benefit analysis might suggest that a Shannon train would never pay for itself but this could reinvigorate the western side of the country with employment and associated social benefits.

They cut Metro North which was needed more for DUB so I dont see this happening sadly.
Ireland is not good at logistics. None of our airports are serviced by rail. Infact I was told that Weston actually has the best rail access via Leixlip Louisa-Bridge!:pac:. If you want to get transport to an airport here you have to pay inflated captive market prices. I remember paying 30 quid to go 10 mins from DCU direction to DUB by taxi!

. There are many issues that dog our airports and the govt seems unaware!
I worked in a hotel and one of the major complaints we always heard was that there was no transport anywhere. A lot of European and American tourists are used to having a good transport system to move around on and were bemused when they arrived in DUB or SNN and were more or less stranded in the middle of nowhere with no idea how to get anywhere and with a rather large hole in their pocket when they got there! The M1 and airport road in DUB was another issue we heard a lot or negatives about!

Sadly aircraft dont glide over the threshold of SNN with empty tanks anymore and the birth of aircraft that could go from central Europe to the US without stopping killed SNN. The enforced stopover saved them in the past but the major US carriers I think threatened the govt with reduced or removed service unless it was removed.

I'm gonna play the Jackeen card now and put it up the culchies!;)

.......Everything large moves through DUB now. Cargo and pax arrive easier and are moved quicker and the census data suggests that almost a third of the population live in Dublin or the commuter belt. A survey by the CSO I think showed that over half the population live in areas where DUB is their closest airport timewise by road. That doesnt bode well for the likes of SNN. Ryanair are propping Knock open and fueling it's expansion, but the problem is that there is life beyond Ryanair. Cargo, T/A etc is all sort of centralising in DUB.
If Ryanair go T/A this will only get worse as if the model works I believe they will drive the major US carriers off the routes and if DUB is their hub in Ireland that will not be good for SNN as Ryanair wont operate out of SNN if they can go from DUB.

20-02-2012 3:23pm

Suits wrote: »

They cut Metro North which was needed more for DUB so I dont see this happening sadly.
Ireland is not good at logistics. None of our airports are serviced by rail. Infact I was told that Weston actually has the best rail access via Leixlip Louisa-Bridge!:pac:. If you want to get transport to an airport here you have to pay inflated captive market prices. I remember paying 30 quid to go 10 mins from DCU direction to DUB by taxi!. There are many issues that dog our airports and the govt seems unaware!
I worked in a hotel and one of the major complaints we always heard was that there was no transport anywhere. A lot of European and American tourists are used to having a good transport system to move around on and were bemused when they arrived in DUB or SNN and were more or less stranded in the middle of nowhere with no idea how to get anywhere and with a rather large hole in their pocket when they got there! The M1 and airport road in DUB was another issue we heard a lot or negatives about!

Sadly aircraft dont glide over the threshold of SNN with empty tanks anymore and the birth of aircraft that could go from central Europe to the US without stopping killed SNN. The enforced stopover saved them in the past but the major US carriers I think threatened the govt with reduced or removed service unless it was removed.

I'm gonna play the Jackeen card now and put it up the culchies!;)

.......Everything large moves through DUB now. Cargo and pax arrive easier and are moved quicker and the census data suggests that almost a third of the population live in Dublin or the commuter belt. A survey by the CSO I think showed that over half the population live in areas where DUB is their closest airport timewise by road. That doesnt bode well for the likes of SNN. Ryanair are propping Knock open and fueling it's expansion, but the problem is that there is life beyond Ryanair. Cargo, T/A etc is all sort of centralising in DUB.
If Ryanair go T/A this will only get worse as if the model works I believe they will drive the major US carriers off the routes and if DUB is their hub in Ireland that will not be good for SNN as Ryanair wont operate out of SNN if they can go from DUB.

Ireland is too small for having more than one long haul(>6 hrs) airport, making Dublin the sole airport for long haul makes sense as it means more choice for every body. Knock and Cork work perfectly as European and UK destination airports to serve the west/north and south. You do not want to be travelling 3 or 4 hours to Dublin for a 30 minute flight to London. Flying for 6 hours or greater makes this journey to Dublin from anywhere in Ireland justified.

Shannon's purpose is getting harder and harder to justify its too costly for european flights compared to a more efficient airport up the coast and it does not really serve TA customers sufficiently. If SNN lose any of the heathrow slots to Knock then they will be in big trouble as Knock already has more routes than SNN even before the planned doubling of the Ryanair routes from Knock over the next few years.

Is there any chance Nato would be looking for a new base ??:) Or a training airport ?? They might pay off some of the 100 million that SNN and its customers owe the taxpayer (Tax payer should not be funding any airport with massive yearly deficits, this should be paid by customers or close it). Customers of Knock keep it profitable and expanding by paying a development fee, will these same taxpayers also be expected to pay for the luxury of customers in Shannon keeping open another regional loss making airport by paying more taxes to help write off there massive debts ?
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/no-more-kicking-can-on-shannon-3002529.html

bladeruner · 20-02-2012 4:13pm

Nok1a wrote: »

Its hard to ever see it succeeding as a large cargo hub. The advantage of a large runway capable of taking any size plane is outweighed by location both internationally and domestically.

Intl:
-what's the advantage of having a transatlantic cargo plane land in Shannon if very little of the cargo will end up at this location? As is done at the moment, the cargo should be sorted at the departure point, ie in Fed Exs case they ship all their European bound cargo from the us into Memphis, then it is put on the appropriate European destined plane,
-Shannon is in the middle of nowhere, the west coast of Ireland with no rail links and as for the sea sailing there from Europe would never work if the cargo was airfreighted in the first place. Whereas an airport like east midlands in the UK which is DHLs UK hub is located in the middle of the UK so its very easy for a transatlantic plane to land, put some of the cargo onto other uk bound planes and put some of it onto trucks to be delivered by road both north and south of the airport.

Domestic:
-Majority of mail/cargo out of Ireland goes from Dublin. its both very expensive(truck/driver/tolls/diesel etc) and time consuming to go from Dublin to Shannon and all the major international couriers already have large modern bases in Dublin. Also if a company is paying extra for a courier then time will be lost if it take 3+ hrs in rush hour to get a van/truck from Dublin to Shannon, meaning earlier pick up times meaning lost customers.

As I said it would have to be a big picture solution involving improved transport links , favourable tax status and upgraded port facilities.

I think you have made your argument for me by quoting east midlands . The UK being an island also has similiar location issues to Ireland . Shannon is well placed to take flights arriving from the US and then to distribute further East.
This only works if a cargo operator makes Shannon a hub.
The idea would be to make it too attractive not to ...just as we have done for aircraft leasing. (Ireland is to the best of my knowledge the world leader in aircraft leasing. )

It wouldn't be an easy ask though and there's no money in the kitty anyway.
So this is all a bit of an intellectual exercise.

Suits · 20-02-2012 6:46pm

bladeruner wrote: »

Shannon is well placed to take flights arriving from the US and then to distribute further East.
This only works if a cargo operator makes Shannon a hub.
The idea would be to make it too attractive not to ...

I see what you are saying, however DUB is underused and all the major road and rail networks run from Dublin. From a logistics standpoint a freight carrier would much rather fly into DUB and load freight onto trucks to go to Cork. Why land in SNN when you can fly 10 mins on to DUB and save on transport costs? The large amount of stuff is going to stay in Dublin anyhow for retail etc so why have to drive it ALL up to Dublin from SNN?
Another SNN issue is that trains cannot go Limerick to Dublin in the current layout. Cargo would have to go from SNN to Limerick and then change trains at Limerick Junction to avoid congestion on the lines. A freight Terminal would have to be built at Heuston too and that would be a traffic NIGHTMARE for the centre city in Dublin. We dont have a good suburban rail network to move the stuff either and the Port Tunnel was built to avoid Trucks in the centre city anyhow!

Reality is that when you go out and see the world and look at other countries you start to realise that we are a small island with in truth only 1 city. Cork, Limerick, Galway etc are when compared to other European countries just large towns with not an awful lot of economic activity. From a cost point of view the only place to fly freight into is DUB because it is the beating heart of the country's economy. You have roads that will have you up North in 2 hours, out West in 2 hours and down South in 2 and a half. In truth why the tell wouldnt companies fly freight into DUB??

I think with the current economic climate the govt is starting to realise that pandering to rural notions of grandeur is an issue that has cost Ireland in the past. Oliver Cromwell's famous quote "To hell or to Connaught" is very true. The East coast is where it's at and when you study the figures you see that compared to "the Pale" the rest of the country produces very little. Dublin and the commuter belt is the economic engine of Ireland and if you look at the map you see that SNN does not have good enough logistical ties at present to be of any used to the economy. The only hope for SNN to have a sucessful future is to pcik it up and move it to Kildare. Perhaps the govt will buy Weston and dig a massive hole to plant SNN in. Then it could be a Cargo hub!:cool:

Blue Punto · 20-02-2012 7:01pm

double post

Blue Punto · 20-02-2012 7:04pm

I think your missing the point
I believe Bladerunner means further east as in Europe(Make Shannon a hub for european cargo coming across the pond and re-distribute it from there across europe)

roundymac · 20-02-2012 8:29pm

Suits wrote: »

Another SNN issue is that trains cannot go Limerick to Dublin in the current layout. Cargo would have to go from SNN to Limerick and then change trains at Limerick Junction to avoid congestion on the lines. A freight Terminal would have to be built at Heuston too and that would be a traffic NIGHTMARE for the centre city in Dublin.

Yes they can, there is a direct curve at Limerick Juction, as for the congestion, run the freight at night like they do in other countries. Plenty of places to have a freight depot near Dublin, you could start at Portlaoise, plenty of room there. An Post have their central depot at Porlaoise and it works for them. Why is it always in Ireland when someone suggests some thing, people start tying themselves up in knots trying to come up with reasons why it cannot be done. Its no wonder the country is in the state it is.:mad:

highlydebased · 20-02-2012 8:42pm

Suits wrote: »

Trains cannot go Limerick to Dublin in the current layout. Cargo would have to go from SNN to Limerick and then change trains at Limerick Junction to avoid congestion on the lines.

LOL. Trains can go Limerick to Dublin.

Imagine telling a load of containers to "All change here for Dublin Heuston"...

roundymac · 20-02-2012 9:29pm

Of course in a proper run rail system, they would be clammering for business, run a spur from the Limerick-Ennis line which runs about 2-3 away, the Limerick-Ballybrophy line which is one of the most underused lines in Ireland could easly accomadate railfreight. All they have to do is finish the improvments on the line,and build a new turnout at Ballybrophy. In any other country these would be considered minor items butover here, oh no, you can't do That. Some of this line was rebuilt over a year ago but it's still got speed restriction because I/E have not got round to tampering the line.:(

Jamie2k9 · 20-02-2012 9:41pm

that line is in a bad state, Track is in a bad way and there is no way it could handle freight traffic. The speed limit is less that 50mph. The line needs investment and a lot of work done.

Suits · 20-02-2012 11:00pm

Freight already runs on the line there at night and as it is the line is bearly able to cope(and thats more down to the quality of the line than the amount of traffic)

I dont see why any cargo airline would want to use SNN as a hub when they could use DUB. DUB is where all roads in Ireland go to really and it is the easiest point from which to distribute cargo either from cargo aircraft to flag carriers and onwards or to parts of Ireland. No airline will use SNN as a hub just so as to justify SNN existing.

I'm not going to pull out numbers etc but my onward education is in this exact field and I can tell you that the major issue that international companies flag in Ireland is the lack to joined up transport. Examples are the lack of rail lines in the NW and fact that all transport networks in the West are not joined to anything! Govt after Govt have failed to link our ports and airports to the main distribution channels and as such our airports are isolated.

If SNN was to be a cargo hub for FedEx and they sorted all European cargo there, there would need to be a train line from the airport DIRECT to Dublin/Cork/Galway/Belfast or else it would not be cost effective. Also the airport would need to expand to be able to recieve the large number of aircraft that would come in. Any restrictions on weights, hours or noise would have to be looked at and in truth if you want it to be a large freight company's "EuroHub" you'd need a fairly big capacity.

highlydebased · 21-02-2012 10:28am

Suits wrote: »

Freight already runs on the line there at night and as it is the line is bearly able to cope(and thats more down to the quality of the line than the amount of traffic)

I dont see why any cargo airline would want to use SNN as a hub when they could use DUB. DUB is where all roads in Ireland go to really and it is the easiest point from which to distribute cargo either from cargo aircraft to flag carriers and onwards or to parts of Ireland. No airline will use SNN as a hub just so as to justify SNN existing.

I'm not going to pull out numbers etc but my onward education is in this exact field and I can tell you that the major issue that international companies flag in Ireland is the lack to joined up transport. Examples are the lack of rail lines in the NW and fact that all transport networks in the West are not joined to anything! Govt after Govt have failed to link our ports and airports to the main distribution channels and as such our airports are isolated.

If SNN was to be a cargo hub for FedEx and they sorted all European cargo there, there would need to be a train line from the airport DIRECT to Dublin/Cork/Galway/Belfast or else it would not be cost effective. Also the airport would need to expand to be able to recieve the large number of aircraft that would come in. Any restrictions on weights, hours or noise would have to be looked at and in truth if you want it to be a large freight company's "EuroHub" you'd need a fairly big capacity.

There's no freight into Limerick or on the Nenagh branch at the moment. The shale/cement traffic is all gone.

bk · 21-02-2012 11:36am

I have to say, no offense, but some people are off in lala fairy land.

- Shannon as a European Cargo Hub
Who in the right mind would use Shannon as a European Cargo Hub, even if you were to spend billions improving rail, road and sea networks, the reality we are an island off in the periphery of Europe, with no connection to mainland Europe.

A European Cargo Hub has to be in the center of Europe, close to the major city centers and with excellent transport connections.

FedEx use Paris Charles De Gaulle and Cologne Bonn Airport.
DHL use Leipzig Halle Airport in Germany (two major autobahns and a railway line go right through the center of it and only a few hours from Berlin, Munich, Amsterdam, etc.)

There is absolutely zero chance Shannon could ever compete with this business. Not unless you paln to move Shannon somewhere in central Europe!!

- Shannon as an Irish cargo hub
Shannon doesn't even make sense as an Irish cargo hub. Over a third of all cargo is heading to Dublin anyway, so why would you not spend an extra 10 minutes flying to Dublin, instead of the 2 hours by road from Shannon.

Also Dublin is perfectly placed to serve the rest of the country, it is only 2 hours and 2 and a half hours from every major city in Ireland. You would have to add an extra two hours to these times from Shannon. Makes no sense at all.

As for rail fright in Ireland, it is dead. Rail freight makes up less then 1% of all freight in Ireland. The reason being you literally couldn't get a country less suited to rail freight then Ireland. For rail freight to work, you typically need very long distances (e.g. across the US, Australia) and heavy loads (mining materials, etc.).

In Ireland we are a small island, where the major population center is in the middle of the country and is only 2:30 hours from everywhere else in the country. Every major population center has a port, we have a superb road network and almost no heavy industry (mining, etc.), with most of our industry being light, just in time industry. You couldn't find a place less suited to rail freight.

Why bother to put your fright on a truck to bring it to a rail hub, ship it for a few hours by rail, then take it back off the rail and onto another truck!! Just leave it on the tuck in the first place and it will get to where it needs to go much faster by road, with less danger to your business if the train company goes on strike.

No, people seem to fail to see the massive effect that the new high quality road network will have on our rail, ports and airports. Everywhere in Ireland is now much closer, which means we will see increased centralisation of port and airports to just one or two and probably the death of intercity rail.

Nok1a · 21-02-2012 11:50am

so thats a no to express cargo operations.

The other "cargo" option for shannon that was mentioned was a humanitarian hub for example one for the likes of the UN / red cross. This would make more sense, plenty of storage space for planes/food, runway would suit the UNs plane fleet(im guessing ageing(so loud), oversized).

xflyer · 21-02-2012 12:44pm

I'm afraid they UN has no fleet. They hire in as required.

No Shannon's future is pretty much as it is now. Some scheduled traffic, some transatlantic scheduled, charter and refuelling. It's glory days are over as was featured on the documentary last night.

People who suggest it should have this service or that service are missing the point. If the numbers were there, the lo-cos would be fighting each other to fly out of the place. They're not, indeed Ryanair like to complain about how expensive it is to fly from Shannon. They're right. Shannon are desperately trying to hang onto the fantasy that it can go back to being a busy airport. That it's needed. Galway fell into that trap too.

It's not needed, to survive it needs to scale back it's ambitions. This is the world of the lo co airline. The days of prestigious government backed white elephants is gone. None of the workers there are owed a living. Like any business it lives or dies on providing customers what they need.

If it has a future it's to be a quiet regional airport with a massive runway and an interesting past.

Davidth88 · 21-02-2012 2:12pm

Interesting , I was reading this thread , I instantly thought of Findel Airport in Luxemburg.

Similar size ( longer runway ) than SNN , but very quiet . And look where it is geographically .

lotusm · 21-02-2012 5:25pm

Looks like the best option for the Govt is to move the T/A to Cork and leave European flights in SNN.. Make all the staff redundant (fat chance) Reopen it as a private enterprise which would make at least profitable when scaled back.... The Taxpayer cannot be expected to keep throwing money at this ... even looking at the show last night there was no one passing through ... :eek:

roundymac · 21-02-2012 6:06pm

The best thing the Gov can do is leave well alone, it did enough interference with the stop over,

highlydebased · 21-02-2012 7:17pm

lotusm wrote: »

Looks like the best option for the Govt is to move the T/A to Cork and leave European flights in SNN.. Make all the staff redundant (fat chance) Reopen it as a private enterprise which would make at least profitable when scaled back.... The Taxpayer cannot be expected to keep throwing money at this ... even looking at the show last night there was no one passing through ... :eek:

Have the taxpayer throw even more money at it when you move away it's more profitable flights....where's your logic for that?

Nok1a · 22-02-2012 10:05am

lotusm wrote: »

Looks like the best option for the Govt is to move the T/A to Cork

Why would you move TA to cork?

At the moment if Cork people want to fly T/A they can:
1. Fly from Shannon:
-1hr 43min journey according to google maps with 1 toll,
-Quieter more enjoyable airport,
-Car park(although a bit more expensive) is only a 2min walk to the terminal.

2. Fly from Dublin
-2hr 36min journey with 3 tolls(one of which is a pain in the ass unless u have easypass),
-Car parks miles away which adds time to the whole process,
-Dublin traffic can be a pain in the ass around newlands cross,
-You have to face a longer journey home, when most TA flights arrive in the AM right at peak traffic in dublin.

So all in all at the moment its a much more plessant less stressful experience for Cork people to fly from Shannon so if they move TA to cork will they necessarily get any additional TA traffic from cork area?

At the moment Shannon caters for TA passengers all along the west coast(as its closer than dublin and a nicer airport) so if TA was moved to cork you would lose TA people to Dublin as it would be make more sense for any one living above limerick to drive to dublin.

As has been said 100s of times TA would not operate our of Shannon if there was not a demand, and the other side of it is that if there was a demand out of cork there would be a service.

xflyer · 22-02-2012 12:51pm

As far as I know there are no longer too many complex rules as such as to whether or not any airport can have a transatlantic service. Certainly it's not the government's job to decide which airports get a transatlantic service or not.

If the management at Cork airport feel there's a market there. They should go to the airlines and make their case. Offer them incentives. but as far as I know the runway is limiting.

It's not up to the government to take away services from one airport and hand it to another. This is not the 1970s. If Shannon want more services then go and get them. Government needs to stay the hell out of it.

Sure it's tough if you live in West Cork or Donegal or Clifden and want to go to New York. But them's the breaks.

There's a bit of a mentality in this country that everyone no matter where they live should have first class access to everything. Airports, world class hospitals, frequent and cheap public transport, first class roads, well paid jobs, gold plated everything even if you live in the middle of nowhere.

But this is Ireland not Utopia. You might get all this in a Communist state but of course you wouldn't be allowed to leave the country if that happened or complain when things don't work out like you were told by the local Commissar.

In the real world everything is compromised and the main population centres get all the good stuff.

roundymac · 22-02-2012 1:18pm

Cork is doing ok with its 40+ european routes. CAA have tried on many occasions to start a T/A but all have failed. Last attempt even went to the booking stage, wife was booked, but luckly was refunded. Slatterys of Tralee were behind the venture. Aircraft was to be a 757 of either, Ryan International or North American, can't remember which. While many excuses were put forward for it not going ahead, I suspect the real reason being lack of bookings.
Location wise SNN can be as easy if not easier to get to from any point north of Mallow and Kerry likewise. Customs and IMM clearence at SNN is a big plus, on a negative side is getting into the car after a 6hour nightime flight and driving down what must now be one of the worst national roads between two cities in Ireland. The very thought of it makes me consider going Cork-LHR and onwards to JFK every time I go to book. If the price was any way close I might go for it.

Nok1a · 22-02-2012 1:25pm

roundymac wrote: »

on a negative side is getting into the car after a 6hour nightime flight and driving down what must now be one of the worst national roads between two cities in Ireland. The very thought of it makes me consider going Cork-LHR and onwards to JFK every time I go to book. If the price was any way close I might go for it.

Id take a 2hr spin on a busy road anytime to/from Shannon airport for a NYC flight compared to adding an extra flight from cork and then having to put up with the experience that is Heathrow(terminal change, go through security a 2nd time, cramped spaces) and also the chaotic US immigration after landing in the US

bk · 22-02-2012 1:52pm

As a Corkonian I can tell you that the major disadvantage of Shannon is the awful, very dangerous road to Shannon.

I much prefer spend then extra 45 minutes driving the nice safe road to Dublin. Almost all of my family and friends in Cork fly out of Dublin, I can't think of any of them ever flying out of Shannon.

Obviously if the M20 ever gets built it will be a major improvement.

roundymac · 22-02-2012 5:07pm

xflyer wrote: »

As far as I know there are no longer too many complex rules as such as to whether or not any airport can have a transatlantic service. Certainly it's not the government's job to decide which airports get a transatlantic service or not.

If the management at Cork airport feel there's a market there. They should go to the airlines and make their case. Offer them incentives. but as far as I know the runway is limiting..

@xflyer The runway is 2133mtrs with a constant crosswind. Would I be correct in saying a fully laden 757 would get off ok, I presume landing would be ok, we had a fully laden KLM 743 divert there with a fire in the hold indication, and another KLM this time an MD 11, with a sick passenger both coming from Central America.

Comhrá · 22-02-2012 7:45pm

The very thought of it makes me consider going Cork-LHR and onwards to JFK every time I go to book. If the price was any way close I might go for it.

I too, thought this a good idea until I flew SNN LHR ORD last summer.
I had checked in online the night before but at LHR they couldn't bring my ESTA data up on their system..... more delays with security and eventually we were bussed out to T5 through what looked like Ground Zero and then we boarded a BA 777 by steps - outdoors ala Ryanair.

Lesson learnt. It's SNN in future - even if the fare is higher.

John.

drdeadlift · 23-02-2012 1:41am

roundymac wrote: »

@xflyer The runway is 2133mtrs with a constant crosswind. Would I be correct in saying a fully laden 757 would get off ok, I presume landing would be ok, we had a fully laden KLM 743 divert there with a fire in the hold indication, and another KLM this time an MD 11, with a sick passenger both coming from Central America.

A 757 would have no weight restrictions operating to the us east coast from cork.

Suits · 23-02-2012 9:11pm

roundymac wrote: »

@xflyer The runway is 2133mtrs with a constant crosswind. Would I be correct in saying a fully laden 757 would get off ok, I presume landing would be ok, we had a fully laden KLM 743 divert there with a fire in the hold indication, and another KLM this time an MD 11, with a sick passenger both coming from Central America.

I believe there was an issue with backtracking large aircraft in Cork. Plus with T/A aircraft arriving in the AM there is a tendency to be locked in CAT III at Cork in the morning.

Growler!!! · 23-02-2012 10:57pm

Suits wrote: »

I believe there was an issue with backtracking large aircraft in Cork. Plus with T/A aircraft arriving in the AM there is a tendency to be locked in CAT III at Cork in the morning.

Non issue on both counts. Turnpad at the end of rwy 17 was laid long ago. Coming in on rwy 35 they just turn off on A. Been 757's and 767's in over the last few months.

Also contrary to popular belief the fog/low cloud usually hits ORK late at night.

Shannon airport

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