Cities around the world that are reducing car access

MJohnston · 13-01-2021 4:44pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Not sure what your point here is. I was suggesting that buses should use the currently mostly pedestrianised road that passes the Zoo entrance to move between Chesterfield Ave and North Road. They then have a dedicated route along North Road to the Cabra Gate, avoiding Chesterfield Ave north of the Zoo.

It's not mostly pedestrianised road — it's a fully pedestrianised path! And with good reason, considering how many crowds of small children there are around the entrance at busiest times. No, we shouldn't be rolling back pedestrianisation here at all.

Beyond that, there are other realities that would prevent this —

* Angle of the Cabra gates would almost certainly prevent a bus from turning from North Road (westbound) onto Blackhorse Avenue. Maybe they can rebuild these gates, but I'm willing to wager there's some amount of protected structure here.
* The reason for sending it all the way up Chesterfield is also to provide a stop for access to the Aras and the Phoenix Park Visitor Centre/Ashtown Castle.
* The road changes in the mobility plan should have a significant reduction in through-park traffic, which would stop the buses getting stuck in traffic.
* Most of the northbound traffic I've seen in Phoenix Park is usually between the northernmost roundabout and the Castleknock gates. Buses would depart Chesterfield Avenue at the Aras roundabout, making them unlikely to encounter much traffic even if the road system wasn't changed.
* Most of the southbound traffic is between the Zoo and the main gates, meaning your rerouting wouldn't reduce traffic interaction.

I think they've picked the correct routing tbh

LXFlyer · 13-01-2021 4:54pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Would be interesting to see how the N2 will manage on Chesterfield Ave on a busy weekend. There are other traffic management proposals but whether they're enough to stop the bus being held up for an hour as can happen cars on a busy day.

The bus option also seems to neglect the need for a bus that goes to the city centre. The 46a will be gone, replaced with an orbital at that location and the nearest radial bus routes will be the infrequents: 37 and 80. If they threw in a new '37a' that takes in the length of Chesterfield and joins the normal 37 outside of the park that operated at equal frequency to the existing 37 and then banned through car journeys entirely I'd be completely happy. The whole thing seems to be overly concerned with car commuters.

The O route, whilst described as an orbital does serve Beresford Place, Amiens Street and Connolly Station, which is in the city centre, so it's not true that no bus will link directly with the city centre and Phoenix Park.

People will also be able to use the 90 minute fare that will cover changes en route. The N2 will interlink with the C Spine and LUAS at Heuston Station, and the B Spine on the Navan Road.

The 80 while less frequent than a Spine is planned to operate every 15 minutes, but in reality (given it is a replacement for the 14) will probably operate every 12 minutes off-peak as the 14 now does. Every 12-15 minutes is hardly "infrequent".

cgcsb · 13-01-2021 6:00pm

The point is it's a major destination and the Park is pretty central but under the proposals there's no direct service to the city centre. Taking the O to Connolly is a bit round the houses to be fair. I'm not saying the N2 extension is a bad idea just that there should also be a direct radial service going through the very centre of the park, the 37 and 80 just clip the edges.

MJohnston · 13-01-2021 6:18pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The point is it's a major destination and the Park is pretty central but under the proposals there's no direct service to the city centre. Taking the O to Connolly is a bit round the houses to be fair. I'm not saying the N2 extension is a bad idea just that there should also be a direct radial service going through the very centre of the park, the 37 and 80 just clip the edges.

In fairness, the whole point of BusConnects is to emphasise the potential of interchange. It seems counterproductive to clog up the city centre with another route, when people could just hop on the Luas to Heuston and then switch to the N2 to get to the park (or walk).

There should also be a consideration for a Dublin Bikes expansion into fringe areas of the park.

p_haugh · 13-01-2021 6:26pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm confused by the report, not sure if they're saying the N2 will be rerouted or they are going to start a completely new and separate bus route running from Broombridge to Heuston. I did just skim it to be fair.

I took it that report is assuming that the N2 will begin operations as planned this year, however they suggest that an interim bus route between Broombridge and Heuston will be provided if the implementation of Bus Connects routes gets delayed any further.

cgcsb · 13-01-2021 6:29pm

MJohnston wrote: »

In fairness, the whole point of BusConnects is to emphasise the potential of interchange. It seems counterproductive to clog up the city centre with another route, when people could just hop on the Luas to Heuston and then switch to the N2 to get to the park (or walk).

There should also be a consideration for a Dublin Bikes expansion into fringe areas of the park.

That's true for suburban areas, i.e. that not not every estate needs a direct bus and a bit of a walk or change of bus is more beneficial to more people in terms of journey time. However in this instance we are talking about a central area with significant trip generators, particularly in summer. From the zoo inwards is pretty central I think it's fair to say, and it'll have no radial service.

cgcsb · 13-01-2021 6:35pm

p_haugh wrote: »

I took it that report is assuming that the N2 will begin operations as planned this year, however they suggest that an interim bus route between Broombridge and Heuston will be provided if the implementation of Bus Connects routes gets delayed any further.

It was my understanding that it would be March 2022 when the N2 and O are introduced?

p_haugh · 13-01-2021 6:38pm

Another thing to note (slightly off topic but relevant to the proposed N2 rerouting) - I assume the plan for Heuston is to make Frank Sherwin Bridge 2-way for buses?
It looks like this is the case going by the network map, but I didn't see any mention of it in the Bus Connects reports.
Otherwise buses would be required to go down the quays to the Rory O'Morre Bridge which adds unneccesary travel time.

p_haugh · 13-01-2021 6:40pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It was my understanding that it would be March 2022 when the N2 and O are introduced?

Sorry yes you are correct there, so there may indeed be an interim route if they want to start it this year then

LXFlyer · 13-01-2021 6:56pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That's true for suburban areas, i.e. that not not every estate needs a direct bus and a bit of a walk or change of bus is more beneficial to more people in terms of journey time. However in this instance we are talking about a central area with significant trip generators, particularly in summer. From the zoo inwards is pretty central I think it's fair to say, and it'll have no radial service.

Sorry but the O route completely dispels that notion. It will replace virtually all of the existing services along the SCR and NCR, within the canals, and means that many more people will have to change onto it from radial routes that are re-directed elsewhere.

LXFlyer · 13-01-2021 6:59pm

p_haugh wrote: »

Another thing to note (slightly off topic but relevant to the proposed N2 rerouting) - I assume the plan for Heuston is to make Frank Sherwin Bridge 2-way for buses?
It looks like this is the case going by the network map, but I didn't see any mention of it in the Bus Connects reports.
Otherwise buses would be required to go down the quays to the Rory O'Morre Bridge which adds unneccesary travel time.

I would imagine that buses will be able to use Seán Heuston Bridge, considering that they will be using Steveen's Lane.

LXFlyer · 13-01-2021 7:05pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The point is it's a major destination and the Park is pretty central but under the proposals there's no direct service to the city centre. Taking the O to Connolly is a bit round the houses to be fair. I'm not saying the N2 extension is a bad idea just that there should also be a direct radial service going through the very centre of the park, the 37 and 80 just clip the edges.

Ah come on, you're stretching things a bit.

Firstly, Amiens Street and Connolly Station are in the city centre.

If we were to follow your train of thought, no one would use the Western Suburban railway line from Connolly.

Yet plenty of people do manage to walk to Connolly every day from O'Connell Street, instead of taking the bus. Like everything, people will get used to the changes.

I don't think that the O is going to be that much longer in terms of journey time from Butt Bridge to Phoenix Park than the existing 46A does.

MJohnston · 13-01-2021 7:49pm

p_haugh wrote: »

I took it that report is assuming that the N2 will begin operations as planned this year, however they suggest that an interim bus route between Broombridge and Heuston will be provided if the implementation of Bus Connects routes gets delayed any further.

They’ll need physical changes at Cabra gates to support the N2 routing through the park. Also the bus route wouldn’t be a good idea without the pedestrian crossing additions they have planned for the park.

cgcsb · 13-01-2021 8:37pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

If we were to follow your train of thought, no one would use the Western Suburban railway line from

That's my point though, it's not a western suburb, it's a central area, well partially anyway. People will tolerate changing for long journeys, not for short ones.

I take your point that the Eastern part of the O route is quite central, if you're anywhere west of O'Connell bridge though you're not going to Connolly for the O bus. And even from Connolly the O isn't too direct, you'd probably still luas to Houston and take the N2, especially when you factor in that the O doesn't go into the park walls.

Again I think the N2 extension is a good idea but a route straight down chesterfield and down the quays should also be available.

LXFlyer · 13-01-2021 11:23pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That's my point though, it's not a western suburb, it's a central area, well partially anyway. People will tolerate changing for long journeys, not for short ones.

I take your point that the Eastern part of the O route is quite central, if you're anywhere west of O'Connell bridge though you're not going to Connolly for the O bus. And even from Connolly the O isn't too direct, you'd probably still luas to Houston and take the N2, especially when you factor in that the O doesn't go into the park walls.

Again I think the N2 extension is a good idea but a route straight down chesterfield and down the quays should also be available.

It is Heuston!! Not Houston.

Not that again please!! ;-)

cgcsb · 14-01-2021 12:43am

LXFlyer wrote: »

It is Heuston!! Not Houston.

Not that again please!! ;-)

I got autocorrected :pac:

Zebra3 · 15-01-2021 8:20pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0115/1190086-dame-st-plan/

Well done to those at IrishCycle.com.

Hopefully some decent people friendly space comes about.

magicbastarder · 16-01-2021 2:23pm

i know this isn't exactly a great fit for this thread, but it's as close as i can find quickly, lest anyone be interested; 'a focus on transport in particular':

https://twitter.com/DublinInquirer/status/1350419961848754176

Thelonious Monk · 18-01-2021 12:03am

https://twitter.com/DublinPedaller/status/1350859054176997376

18-01-2021 12:16pm

From the Irish Times, I've bolded the car access reference. Great to see attitudes changing at the highest levels and acknowledgement that the status quo is no longer tenable

Days of three-bed semis in Dublin ‘are over’ as high-density housing plans take hold

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/days-of-three-bed-semis-in-dublin-are-over-as-high-density-housing-plans-take-hold-1.4460746?mode=amp

The days of the three-bed semi-detached house “are over” in Dublin, the city council’s most senior planner has said, as work gets under way on plans for new high-density neighbourhoods across the capital.

Plans for at least four new “urban villages” will be devised under the new Dublin City Development Plan 2022-2028 to help house an expected increase in population of up to 70,000.

Dublin city planner John O’Hara said most homes in the new neighbourhoods would be apartments. “The days of the three-bed semi are over,” he said.

The city needed to maximise the potential of land within the M50 to deliver some 30,000 additional homes over the period of the plan, Mr O’Hara said. This would involve building on infill sites, but would also require the development of strategies for large industrial estates including the Dublin Industrial Estate near Glasnevin cemetery; Jamestown Business Park in Finglas; the Malahide Road Industrial Park in Coolock; and, to the southwest of the city, industrial lands around Kylemore Road, Park West Road and the Inchicore railway.

The plan would also guide the development of the Glass Bottle Company site in Poolbeg, and other large land banks at the Naas Road, Ballymun and Cherry Orchard.

While there had during the recession been a push back to building two-storey housing, Mr O’Hara said, the urgency of dealing with climate change meant that was no longer sustainable.

“The corollary of that is to contain urban sprawl with higher-density development,” he said. “That does not mean forcing employment out of industrial areas. Our policy, right through the development plan, is for mixed use, based on the 15-minute neighbourhood principle, where your work, and everything you need for quality of life, is within a 15-minute walk or cycle.”

Major changes are also expected for the city centre, Mr O’Hara said. “Cars will not be used as a means of commuting – that will be a major priority.”

While the council does not plan to ban cars, measures will be taken to ensure cycling, walking and public transport are the more attractive commuting options, he said.

Retail will no longer hold the same place in the post-pandemic city, he added.

“We need to consider what is the future of the city post-Covid. Retail, although there will be some bounce back, will never return to the position it had. But we have to retain the vitality of the city streets, and that might mean a greater focus on culture, on eating out, and on more residential use in the city centre.”

The development plan would also consider whether there was an “overprovision” of hotels and student accommodation in certain parts of the city, he said.

“We have to look at the loss of cultural capital and where we can provide those spaces indoors or outdoors. We also need to consider whether the hospitality industry might have a contribution to make to that cultural offering, maybe allocating part of a hotel to a jazz club.”

The council is holding online public information meetings on the development plan on January 25th and 26th. A “strategic issues paper” is available at dublincitydevelopmentplan.ieand the closing date for submissions is February 22nd.

MJohnston · 18-01-2021 12:28pm

They're saying the right things, anyway, but they need to get a move on.

cgcsb · 18-01-2021 2:06pm

Great to see but if the average income cannot afford new high density housing is there a point? the result will be like the present set up in the docklands, fancy new buildings with 20% occupancy and the funds that own them can afford to wait decades without dropping asking rents. people will still have to travel from Longford.

Seth Brundle · 20-01-2021 11:46am

hmmmm...
https://twitter.com/RuthMayorcas/status/1351614179472498690

MJohnston · 20-01-2021 12:09pm

I keep saying it elsewhere, but I think future generations will come to see cars as a pig-ignorant menace, similar to how we think about the prevalence of smoking in the early 20th century.

Sam Russell · 20-01-2021 5:41pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I keep saying it elsewhere, but I think future generations will come to see cars as a pig-ignorant menace, similar to how we think about the prevalence of smoking in the early 20th century.

Who would have predicted a hundred years ago that nearly every adult would have access to a motorcar with the freedom to go anywhere at anytime. Who would have projected a few decades ago that nearly everyone, including children, would have a powerful computer in their pocket that allowed connection to most parts of the world instantaneously, and at low or zero cost.

The motorcar replaced the pony and trap and the ass and cart. The motorcar will evolve or be replaced with something else which will be better suited - perhaps frequent buses or metros, or cars hired by the hour - or some form of transport yet to find favour.

Meanwhile we need to deal with the proliferation and ubiquity of the motorcar. For it is the huge number that is the problem, and the pig-ignorance of many of the drivers.

Peregrine · 20-01-2021 5:42pm

96% in favour of option 4 (pedestrianisation all the way up to George's Street). Not bad.

https://twitter.com/DubCityCouncil/status/1351911395420491776?s=20

cgcsb · 20-01-2021 5:52pm

What DCC does with this information is another thing, <snip>

magicbastarder · 24-01-2021 3:24pm

this is some transformation (i'd be too young to remember this)

https://twitter.com/libertiesdublin/status/1353092431798022145

p_haugh · 24-01-2021 5:21pm

Saw this shared on twitter a while back - the widening of Clonbrassil Street was done as part of this! Glad these plans got scrapped in the end (although as mentioned in the article, some elements of it managed to get built).

https://randall.ie/unfinished-dublin/

magicbastarder · 25-01-2021 8:42pm

https://twitter.com/LkCycleDesign/status/1353774461435129857

there's already one car park at the civic centre (as mentioned) with 45 spaces, and spaces for at least that again around the town, in other smaller car parks.

AlmightyCushion · 26-01-2021 1:12am

The state is spending €100,000 so some guy can build a car park opposite is shop. This is ridiculous regardless of what fund the money is coming from. The fact it is coming from a fund designed to rejuvenate town centres is even worse.

Pete_Cavan · 26-01-2021 9:36am

Nothing says Town and Village Renewal like paying the local Spar owner to flatten part of the village.

Seth Brundle · 28-01-2021 11:04am

Interesting - hadn't heard of this before...

https://twitter.com/berkie1/status/1332410185881694208

28-01-2021 11:08am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Interesting - hadn't heard of this before...

https://twitter.com/berkie1/status/1332410185881694208

I suppose it makes sense when you think about it.
Try having a conversation with "the man in the street" if the traffic is so heavy that you can't hear each other.

Thelonious Monk · 28-01-2021 11:15am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

hmmmm...
https://twitter.com/RuthMayorcas/status/1351614179472498690

This is so true, yet so many people still think taking cars from places will rip the life out of the area. I don't know how many times I've seen "straw that breaks the camels back by DCC" when bike lanes or car restrictions are being discussed on twitter.

MJohnston · 28-01-2021 1:27pm

That supports my theory that the reason kids don't play in the street "like they used to" is because of the increased number of cars in the country. Not some other nefarious, hypothetical threat.

wakka12 · 28-01-2021 1:42pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

This is so true, yet so many people still think taking cars from places will rip the life out of the area. I don't know how many times I've seen "straw that breaks the camels back by DCC" when bike lanes or car restrictions are being discussed on twitter.

Just link them to the Grafton pedestrianisation report that showed sales increased by 50% in the area during those weeks. It's an infallible argument

wakka12 · 28-01-2021 1:59pm

With 94% of people supporting complete ban on car access through such a crucial arterial junction, it really goes to show how loud a tiny minority car lobby have been all along. After Dame Street is pedestrianised everyone will come to realise fully what we have been missing out on because of cars..days are numbered for the car in central Dublin, dominoes will start to fall

LXFlyer · 28-01-2021 2:12pm

wakka12 wrote: »

With 94% of people supporting complete ban on car access through such a crucial arterial junction, it really goes to show how loud a tiny minority car lobby have been all along. After Dame Street is pedestrianised everyone will come to realise fully what we have been missing out on because of cars..days are numbered for the car in central Dublin, dominoes will start to fall

To be fair the principal reason for rejecting the original College Green proposals was not really car related, but was down to the unrealistic proposals that DCC made with regard to re-routing the bus routes, with too many routes diverted onto the Quays, and also involving an excessive dogleg diversion for major cross-city routes that use Georges Street.

This has now been corrected through the revised BusConnects network proposal which now have far more sensible alternative routings included and which minimise the impact on bus journey times.

cgcsb · 28-01-2021 2:19pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

To be fair the principal reason for rejecting the original College Green proposals was not really car related, but was down to the unrealistic proposals that DCC made with regard to re-routing the bus routes, with too many routes diverted onto the Quays, and also involving an excessive dogleg diversion for major cross-city routes that use Georges Street.

This has now been corrected through the revised BusConnects network proposal which now have far more sensible alternative routings included and which minimise the impact on bus journey times.

Fingers crossed that DCCC go ahead with it. It could be just stored on the shelf next to the liffey cycle route.

LXFlyer · 28-01-2021 2:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Fingers crossed that DCCC go ahead with it. It could be just stored on the shelf next to the liffey cycle route.

I'd caution against expecting an immediate implementation, as it is predicated on the revised network of bus routes through the city centre, which remove most of the turns at O'Connell Bridge, rather than the current bus network. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but it probably would be more difficult.

But, on the positive side, it does appear that most of the final preparatory work for implementing phase 1 of the revised network is happening as we speak, which would auger well for this.

The detailed design work will presumably take a little while in any case.

cgcsb · 28-01-2021 3:20pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

I'd caution against expecting an immediate implementation, as it is predicated on the revised network of bus routes through the city centre, which remove most of the turns at O'Connell Bridge, rather than the current bus network. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but it probably would be more difficult.

But, on the positive side, it does appear that most of the final preparatory work for implementing phase 1 of the revised network is happening as we speak, which would auger well for this.

The detailed design work will presumably take a little while in any case.

If so, that's 2024, possible still before the liffey cycle route.

Thelonious Monk · 28-01-2021 3:26pm

MJohnston wrote: »

That supports my theory that the reason kids don't play in the street "like they used to" is because of the increased number of cars in the country. Not some other nefarious, hypothetical threat.

God yeah now that I think of it, I haven't seen kids playing squares since we used to in the 90s. Just wouldn't be possible now.
There are still so many people out there that think taking car access from places is unfair and favours the people living nearby, but nothing is stopping people getting their by other means, they might not just be able to do it as easily.
All this talk of restricting cars to the Phoenix Park wouldn't bother me, even though it's a bit of a pain to get to, I'd just maybe go there once a year or every couple of years or so, and meanwhile take advantage of things that are easier to get to in my vicinity.

LXFlyer · 28-01-2021 3:38pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If so, that's 2024, possible still before the liffey cycle route.

Well a significant amount of the relevant routes would be done before that and the remaining ones could probably be re-routed temporarily.

Thelonious Monk · 28-01-2021 6:31pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1354752164971819008

The looney left cycling Mafia or DCC are considering issuing fines for illegal parking. To be fair it would probably clean the city up overnight.

cgcsb · 28-01-2021 6:36pm

I'm fine with cars overstaying their paid time being clamped. Don't understand how we seem to be the only country that doesn't toe away nuisance parkers. Even in the centre of the city parking on footpaths and cycle lanes is common and they aren't event clamped, never mind removed.

Thelonious Monk · 28-01-2021 6:37pm

We would need a clamper van for every street really to enforce parking properly, fines are a start.

28-01-2021 6:50pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We would need a clamper van for every street really to enforce parking properly, fines are a start.

A lot simpler to just get rid of the on street parking altogether and realocate the space to wider paths, protected cycle lanes and bus infrastructure

Seth Brundle · 28-01-2021 7:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot simpler to just get rid of the on street parking altogether and realocate the space to wider paths, protected cycle lanes and bus infrastructure

There would be a revenue loss from that which would need to be topped up from central exchequer funds. Can't imagine our TDs not becoming vocal in that case given that they'd be pestered by those who expect to be able to park wherever they choose.

Thelonious Monk · 28-01-2021 7:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot simpler to just get rid of the on street parking altogether and realocate the space to wider paths, protected cycle lanes and bus infrastructure

They would still park on the wider paths as they already do all over Ireland

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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