Cities around the world that are reducing car access

CatInABox

DCC are putting orcas on Westland Row now, finally protecting the cycle lane there.

Absolutely incredible the amount of progress in the space of a couple of weeks, with campaigners asking for these improvements for years and years.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

The issue that I still have with this is sending buses that currently operate via College Green and Georges Street up the Quays to Winetavern Street. It is too long a detour.

They need to be able to use Parliament Street if they are removed from using College Green as a through route (some could use Dawson St/Kildare St).

The new hybrid buses could be allocated to those routes in an effort to reduce emissions.

Do you think that detour would be too long if there was to be a significant reduction in cars on the quays?

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Do you think that detour would be too long if there was to be a significant reduction in cars on the quays?

Yes I do.

It’s a whopping detour compared with what we have now and will certainly take longer in my view.

That’s not an improvement for a cross-city passenger on those routes.

We also need to see how buses would get from O’Connell St to the South Quays - the last time they had to do a loop of D’Olier St., College St.and Westmoreland St that really needs to be eliminated.

DCC aren’t bus service planners and historically have come up with all sorts of ideas with no practical understanding of the operational impact.

As I said above - I would accept Parliament St as an option, but Winetavern St is just too far away.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

I would accept Parliament St as an option, but Winetavern St is just too far away.

Surely this depends on the bus route? Some won't be looping back on themselves to complete the detour, they'll simply proceed onwards.

Ultimately I think passengers would care more about the end-to-end journey time rather than the impact of one sectional rerouting. We can't view the closure of College Green in isolation, instead it has to be taken in the context of the larger, rather massive, reduction in car capacity throughout the city, and what effect that will have on bus passage.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Surely this depends on the bus route? Some won't be looping back on themselves to complete the detour, they'll simply proceed onwards.

Ultimately I think passengers would care more about the end-to-end journey time rather than the impact of one sectional rerouting. We can't view the closure of College Green in isolation, instead it has to be taken in the context of the larger, rather massive, reduction in car capacity throughout the city, and what effect that will have on bus passage.

Read my original post again - I am talking specifically about the George’s St routes that use O’Connell St. In other words the 9, 16 and 122. They will be forced to go via a long loop to get to and from Winetavern St.

DCC appear not to be bothered to re-examine the potential use of Parliament St for those routes, which is in my view perfectly feasible in the context of The new hybrid buses being allocated to them.

They are three of the busiest cross-city routes in the city and sending them on an elongated detour with multiple looping ain’t exactly clever thinking.

I already observed that the Rathmines routes can be sent via St Stephen’s Green and Dawson St/Kildare St with minimal impact on journey times.

Winetavern St could and should still be used for the buses serving Thomas St or the Coombe.

This is the core section of those routes, where they are busiest, so your comment about end to end journey times is somewhat odd. It will have an impact on most customers.

I tend to examine the detail of these ideas rather than the broad brush strokes, mainly because for years that has been precisely the thing that has resulted in a poor service to bus customers in Dublin.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

Read my original post again - I am talking specifically about the George’s St routes that use O’Connell St. In other words the 9, 16 and 122. They will be forced to go via a long loop to get to and from Winetavern St.

I mean, it doesn't seem to me to be *that* long a loop in the context of how long the end-to-end distances of these routes are. Sure the 9 already takes a giant detour just to include OCS.

If the additional reroute is that pernicious, couldn't these specific routes just switch from using Camden-George Street to using Clanbrassil-Patrick Street instead?

Thelonious Monk

I was only thinking about Westland Row yesterday as it's so frustrating cycling on it every morning as probably 90% of the time there are vehicles parked in the bike lane, and at the weekends it's a car park ffs. I saw on twitter that wands are going in today. It's amazing that all this is happening so quickly.
At least it can happen in Dublin, when you see that they're doing nothing in Cork etc it makes you realise the other cities are even more anti-bicycle/pedestrian.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I mean, it doesn't seem to me to be *that* long a loop in the context of how long the end-to-end distances of these routes are. Sure the 9 already takes a giant detour just to include OCS.

If the additional reroute is that pernicious, couldn't these specific routes just switch from using Camden-George Street to using Clanbrassil-Patrick Street instead?

Your suggestion would miss out some of the busiest stops on the route in both directions on those routes.

I would respectfully disagree that sending a bus south along O'Connell Street, then via D'Olier Street, College Street, north on Westmoreland Street, then along the South Quays, left onto Winetavern Street, left back onto Lord Edward Street, onto Dame Street and then right onto Georges' Street isn't "that long a loop", when compared with going directly through College Green as at present.

This kind of thinking is exactly what puts people off using the bus.

The removal of the Parliament Street option, and the suggestion of the route above was exactly the reason that Dublin Bus withdrew their support for the plaza.

Your fixation on end-to-end is rather misplaced. Most people don't use the routes for end to end trips - they're using it all along the route for different length journeys, but many of them do involve that core cross-city element which is pretty critical.

donvito99

LXFlyer wrote: »

Your suggestion would miss out some of the busiest stops on the route in both directions on those routes.

Who's to say buses wouldn't be similarly packed and stops similarly busy if the bus went via Clanbrassil St though?

LXFlyer

donvito99 wrote: »

Who's to say buses wouldn't be similarly packed and stops similarly busy if the bus went via Clanbrassil St though?

Because it's up to a km distance from the stops on the Camden Street / George's Street corridor that are the main stops serving the Grafton Street shops and the CBD area going east towards Leeson Street and Baggot Street.

Making life difficult for the existing passengers isn't clever.

There simply aren't comparative traffic generators along the Clanbrassil Street route.

What's the issue that you have with re-routing the buses with Parliament Street if they were the hybrid buses?

I am assuming that you (and MJohnston) both have one as that is what I'm suggesting should happen, with provision for a right turn from O'Connell Bridge southbound for buses?

Otherwise you're arguing with me for the sake of it.

celtcia

LXFlyer wrote: »

The issue that I still have with this is sending buses that currently operate via College Green and Georges Street up the Quays to Winetavern Street. It is too long a detour.

They need to be able to use Parliament Street if they are removed from using College Green as a through route (some could use Dawson St/Kildare St).

The new hybrid buses could be allocated to those routes in an effort to reduce emissions.

DCC need to stop flushing money down the toliet with bad design...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OpHgN98tWBw

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

Your fixation on end-to-end is rather misplaced. Most people don't use the routes for end to end trips - they're using it all along the route for different length journeys, but many of them do involve that core cross-city element which is pretty critical.

I don't think it's misplaced at all. The majority of passengers won't be boarding at OCS and trying to disembark at George's Street. They'll be coming from further out of the city. Which makes an 800m detour not as significant in the context of their entire journey.

This seems to me to be especially true if the city centre element has seen a reduction of cars which actually makes their journey faster overall. This doesn't seem that controversial an idea?

I don't have any issue at all with buses being on Parliament Street if they're diesels, never mind hybrids. But that seems to have been ruled out, so there has to be an interim solution, because College Green plaza, or a temporary implementation of it, is much more than a desired "luxury" now, it's become a necessity.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't think it's misplaced at all. The majority of passengers won't be boarding at OCS and trying to disembark at George's Street. They'll be coming from further out of the city. Which makes an 800m detour not as significant in the context of their entire journey.

This seems to me to be especially true if the city centre element has seen a reduction of cars which actually makes their journey faster overall. This doesn't seem that controversial an idea?

I don't have any issue at all with buses being on Parliament Street if they're diesels, never mind hybrids. But that seems to have been ruled out, so there has to be an interim solution, because College Green plaza, or a temporary implementation of it, is much more than a desired "luxury" now, it's become a necessity.

Parliament St was ruled out on the basis of diesel bus emissions, and I’m pretty sure that they didn’t restrict the number of buses using it to those three routes.

There’s been no examination of the impact of using hybrids. That is one issue.

DCC haven’t bothered doing so.

My second issue, why penalise people who are using public transport by making their journey unnecessarily longer when it does not need to be.

Whether they’re making short trips or long trips, routing via Winetavern St is unnecessarily adding to the journey time - that is not good for public transport.

We shouldn’t blindly accept that Parliament Street is not an option.

If this were to be implemented now, it would become a massive battle to change it in future years. It is a lot harder to undo a change once it has been put in place.

Why not do it right from the start?

donvito99

LXFlyer wrote: »

Because it's up to a km distance from the stops on the Camden Street / George's Street corridor that are the main stops serving the Grafton Street shops and the CBD area going east towards Leeson Street and Baggot Street.

Making life difficult for the existing passengers isn't clever.

There simply aren't comparative traffic generators along the Clanbrassil Street route.

I think Dublin is a big enough city with enough concentrations of activity that any routing (so long as it hits one of these concentrations eventually) will be full. I don't see why Clanbrassil St to O'CS instead of George's St to O'CS would not be full.

What's the issue that you have with re-routing the buses with Parliament Street if they were the hybrid buses?

I didn't say anything on Parliament St so I don't know what you mean here.

I am assuming that you (and MJohnston) both have one as that is what I'm suggesting should happen, with provision for a right turn from O'Connell Bridge southbound for buses?

Otherwise you're arguing with me for the sake of it.

I have no idea what you're saying to be quite honest, unless you've mixed me up with another poster.

LXFlyer

donvito99 wrote: »

I think Dublin is a big enough city with enough concentrations of activity that any routing (so long as it hits one of these concentrations eventually) will be full. I don't see why Clanbrassil St to O'CS instead of George's St to O'CS would not be full.

I didn't say anything on Parliament St so I don't know what you mean here.

I have no idea what you're saying to be quite honest, unless you've mixed me up with another poster.

Maybe go back to my first post and understand what I’m saying.

My whole point here is that a better routing be taken using Parliament Street instead of Winetavern Street for the 9, 16 and 122, and that a right turn off O’Connell Bridge southbound to the Quays be provided, so the impact of closing College Green be minimised.

You’re going off on a wild tangent using about Clanbrassil St, but I will say that if you did that you would be removing what are some of the busiest stops on those routes along Camden Street and George’s St.

I don’t think that forcing their users to have to walk up to a kilometre more than they do now is a very good idea.

donvito99

LXFlyer wrote: »

Maybe go back to my first post and understand what I’m saying.

My whole point here is that a better routing be taken using Parliament Street instead of Winetavern Street for the 9, 16 and 122, and that a right turn off O’Connell Bridge southbound to the Quays be provided, so the impact of closing College Green be minimised.

You’re going off on a wild tangent using about Clanbrassil St, but I will say that if you did that you would be removing what are some of the busiest stops on those routes along Camden Street and George’s St.

I don’t think that forcing their users to have to walk up to a kilometre more than they do now is a very good idea.

My point has been that buses ought to be redistributed around the City Centre to offer greater frequency to underserved areas and allow for people to make useful interchanges.

It makes an awful lot of sense for the 16 and the 9 to continue straight into the CC and avoid the joke that is the bus lane on South Circular Road. Hardly a "wild tangent" for those buses to go straight on with the 54a?

And forcing existing users to possibly walk more is ignoring users who live along the 16 and 9 routes and who don't work in the part of the city served by the 16 and 9 at present, do they not exist?

LuckyLloyd

CatInABox wrote: »

DCC are putting orcas on Westland Row now, finally protecting the cycle lane there.

Absolutely incredible the amount of progress in the space of a couple of weeks, with campaigners asking for these improvements for years and years.

They're getting it all in when the streets are empty and nobody is in town to complain about it. It's a stunning move - strike with great force when your enemy is weak and distracted.

LXFlyer

donvito99 wrote: »

My point has been that buses ought to be redistributed around the City Centre to offer greater frequency to underserved areas and allow for people to make useful interchanges.

It makes an awful lot of sense for the 16 and the 9 to continue straight into the CC and avoid the joke that is the bus lane on South Circular Road. Hardly a "wild tangent" for those buses to go straight on with the 54a?

And forcing existing users to possibly walk more is ignoring users who live along the 16 and 9 routes and who don't work in the part of the city served by the 16 and 9 at present, do they not exist?

As part of the overall network redesign you would have a point, as that would incorporate simultaneous changes to other routes that maintain existing connectivity, and the 90 minute transfer ticket was introduced.

But this isn't part of the BusConnects network redesign - it is DCC taking a decision to close College Green to east/west public transport and proposing a very inconvenient detour for those three particular routes, three of the busiest in the city, while a much easier and attractive alternative exists.

There aren't going to be wholesale changes such as you suggest which involve removing buses from stops along one corridor to another which is up to 1km away (with no replacement service offered) in the manner you suggest until the BusConnects network redesign takes place.

Developments such as the O route would have to be in existence before you could do it.

celtcia

LXFlyer wrote: »

As part of the overall network redesign you would have a point, as that would incorporate simultaneous changes to other routes that maintain existing connectivity, and the 90 minute transfer ticket was introduced.

But this isn't part of the BusConnects network redesign - it is DCC taking a decision to close College Green to east/west public transport and proposing a very inconvenient detour for those three particular routes, three of the busiest in the city, while a much easier and attractive alternative exists.

There aren't going to be wholesale changes such as you suggest which involve removing buses from stops along one corridor to another which is up to 1km away (with no replacement service offered) in the manner you suggest until the BusConnects network redesign takes place.

Developments such as the O route would have to be in existence before you could do it.

Yeah I agree it seems like a much easier connection option exists in this video? I mean whats next? Any feedback on our college green plaza video or willing to chat? There are also a few designs floating around for Dame St... Interesting if DCC and Dublin Bus will butt heads again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQxfKeAHeFA

mi6543210

Peregrine

Carpark owners had already objected to works putting in a temporary Liffey Cycleway while the Dublin City Traders' Alliance has threatened High Court action.

An email from solicitor and developer Noel Smyth to Mr Keegan accused the council of using Covid-19 as cover to carry out an "illegal act" and called on the council to "cease and stop immediately".

The email states that the temporary cycle lane does not have planning permission and has not been subject to an Environmental Impact Assessment.

Mr Smyth warned that legal action will begin unless an undertaking has been given to halt the works.

And he's back. Someone keep track of the number of times the Dublin City Centre Traders' Car Park Owners' Alliance has threatened to take legal action against the council. I think it's at least 3, possibly 4.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2020/0511/1137819-dublin-traffic/
"Priority to be given to cyclists and pedestrians - DCC"

wakka12

Citizens should make some kind of petition against the Car Park Owner Alliance. Council works on behalf of the public,it's not fair or right that this minority lobby group seemingly have such an impact on the development infrastructure projects that will do so much good for the average citizen in terms of health, environmental and economic impact.

donvito99

The difference this time is that they're no longer shouting down proposals, they're shouting over improvements that are actually being implemented. Which makes for a change.

cgcsb

They don't have a legal leg to stand on though. Never mind that, the liffey cycle route doesn't actually impact them at all, they still have unfettered access for cars.

I had to laugh at this:

Speaking on Monday evening, Mr Smyth said the Dublin City Centre Traders' Alliance had offered to pay half the cost of a study for the city council to examine how pedestrians, cyclists, cars and trams could move in a Medieval city.

"There is no study or information to say they are right or wrong," he said.

Mr Smyth previously threatened legal action when the city council sought to introduce the College Green plaza plan through its own powers under road traffic legislation.

Only about 0.5 sqkm of Dublin city can be considered to be 'Medieval', namely the areas now known as Temple Bar and Christchurch, neither of these areas accommodate trams or have any proposals to do so, so the alliance are going to pay to commission a study with an utterly false premise.

Peregrine

wakka12 wrote: »

Citizens should make some kind of petition against the Car Park Owner Alliance. Council works on behalf of the public,it's not fair or right that this minority lobby group seemingly have such an impact on the development infrastructure projects that will do so much good for the average citizen in terms of health, environmental and economic impact.

They are! Hopefully the negative coverage makes BT and Arnotts cop on.

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1260077174322868225?s=20
https://twitter.com/streetsare4ppl/status/1260147542387568640?s=20
https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1260142064274223104?s=20

wakka12

Peregrine wrote: »

They are! Hopefully the negative coverage makes BT and Arnotts cop on.

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1260077174322868225?s=20
https://twitter.com/streetsare4ppl/status/1260147542387568640?s=20
https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1260142064274223104?s=20

Brilliant! I will be emailing them all over lunch

CatInABox

DLRCC has started now too. I think there's been a lot of pressure coming on them to acknowledge the new reality.

https://twitter.com/dlrcc/status/1260630189626834944

JohnC.

https://www.ft.com/content/9fbfcf58-c710-40b0-91ee-0811686fa391

City of London proposals for 12 or 24 hour closures for cars of main routes to make streets safer for pedestrians to distance. It's for Covid, but if it works they are considering making it permanent.

It's paywalled, but if you Google the headline, "City of London to ban cars on busiest roads as lockdown eases", Google links to the whole article.

JohnC.

The official document on that City of London plan, for those interested

http://democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/documents/s133303/City%20Streets%20CV19%20recovery%20committee%20report%20PT%20140520%20FINAL.pdf

Sam Russell

JohnC. wrote: »

The official document on that City of London plan, for those interested

http://democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/documents/s133303/City%20Streets%20CV19%20recovery%20committee%20report%20PT%20140520%20FINAL.pdf

The City of London is only one square mile, so not huge.

CatInABox

Janet Horner has put up the DCC/NTA Interim Mobility Intervention Programme for Dublin City, laying out the future of Dublin. Very interesting read. Even with all the measures that they're doing, they believe they'll have a 50000 shortfall in journey capacity.

See here.

Also, there's a justification for moving buses way from the college green route in there too, namely that there's too many buses and pedestrians to share the space while maintain the room for social distancing.

It's an incredible doc in many ways, it's going to reshape the city for decades.