Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

ohnonotgmail · 13-01-2021 12:11am

Mimon wrote: »

Won't affect craft beers. It is to target being able to get a can of piss lager for 70c.

It will effect everything. if the price of the cheapest beer goes up they will raise the price of more expensive beers to maintain the price differential.

elperello · 13-01-2021 12:20am

Mimon wrote: »

Won't affect craft beers. It is to target being able to get a can of piss lager for 70c.

We won't know for sure until they set the price.

It could affect drinks up the price range.

Besides, a bit of solidarity wouldn't go astray, if some one wants to drink cheap lager that's their business

Furthermore during the recent Christmas sales some very popular brands were sold very cheap.

10000maniacs · 13-01-2021 1:48am

I wonder what the EU think of price fixing like this in a single market?
I'm sure the German and Polish brewers like Bavaria and Tyskie would have something to say about it.
I sure would if I were them.

AllForIt · 13-01-2021 2:08am

As a health issue I'm conflicted on this one.

On the one hand I do think the state should step in and tackle the obesity crisis through taxation.

And alcohol is a massive factor in obesity. Drinking high calorie drinks is one of the worst things you can do for your weight and health. You can pile on the pounds without eating anything.

But i'm uncomfortable with targeting a specific highly calorific product such as alcohol. It would be no different that targeting sausages or fried chicken or any other specific food product. And I would argue eating crappy food day in day out is far worse than a weekend alcohol binge.

edit: those that have an alcohol problem, those that drink most days, well that's a substance abuse issue, and I don't think that can be fixed by simply raising the minimum alcohol pricing.

Mimon · 13-01-2021 2:19am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It will effect everything. if the price of the cheapest beer goes up they will raise the price of more expensive beers to maintain the price differential.

The way he was talking it would directly effect them which it won't. You are just guessing what might happen.

Mimon · 13-01-2021 2:21am

elperello wrote: »

We won't know for sure until they set the price.

It could affect drinks up the price range.

Besides, a bit of solidarity wouldn't go astray, if some one wants to drink cheap lager that's their business

Furthermore during the recent Christmas sales some very popular brands were sold very cheap.

The 70 cent lagers are definitely not good for anyone's health. Glow in the dark from Chernobyl grown barley :pac:

Geuze · 13-01-2021 2:21am

10000maniacs wrote: »

I'm sure the German and Polish brewers like Bavaria and Tyskie

Bavaria is Dutch, although I don't know why a Dutch brewer has the same name as a state in Germany

https://swinkelsfamilybrewers.com/en/about-us/our-manifesto.html

Geuze · 13-01-2021 2:26am

AllForIt wrote: »

As a health issue I'm conflicted on this one.

On the one hand I do think the state should step in and tackle the obesity crisis through taxation.

And alcohol is a massive factor in obesity. Drinking high calorie drinks is one of the worst things you can do for your weight and health. You can pile on the pounds without eating anything.

There is zero fat in beer.

I read a Beamish label recently, and was happy to see 0% fat and 0% sugar.

Yes, beer is full of calories, yes.

But I wonder is beer such a contributor to obesity?

Part of the problem, yes.

A major part of the problem, I don't think so?

I would point the finger more at:

chocolate
pizzas loaded with cheese
pies
pastries
etc., etc.

I suspect beer contributes to obesity more in men than women?

PTH2009 · 13-01-2021 2:33am

places selling cans/bottles for €1-€4 each some of which would of been in the 3/4 for €10 etc

This new rule is such an annoyance and a bit pointless

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-01-2021 8:20am

10000maniacs wrote: »

I wonder what the EU think of price fixing like this in a single market?
I'm sure the German and Polish brewers like Bavaria and Tyskie would have something to say about it.
I sure would if I were them.

Scotland introduced MUP a few years ago and I believe there were a number of EU investigations and court cases about it's validity before it was finally introduced.

Bass Reeves · 13-01-2021 10:12am

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

AllForIt wrote: »

As a health issue I'm conflicted on this one.

On the one hand I do think the state should step in and tackle the obesity crisis through taxation.

And alcohol is a massive factor in obesity. Drinking high calorie drinks is one of the worst things you can do for your weight and health. You can pile on the pounds without eating anything.

But i'm uncomfortable with targeting a specific highly calorific product such as alcohol. It would be no different that targeting sausages or fried chicken or any other specific food product. And I would argue eating crappy food day in day out is far worse than a weekend alcohol binge.

edit: those that have an alcohol problem, those that drink most days, well that's a substance abuse issue, and I don't think that can be fixed by simply raising the minimum alcohol pricing.

I agree that minimum pricing will not stop those that have an issue. However if we look back at the way smoking was reduced it was something similar. 50 years ago a portion of the population smoked. It took 50 years of a combination of measures to reduce smoking to where it is now.

I agree the obesity issue needs to be tackled as well. See the way come has reduced there can size and priced it below a euro in Convience shops. This is targeting children more than anything else.

ohnonotgmail · 13-01-2021 10:22am

AllForIt wrote: »

As a health issue I'm conflicted on this one.

On the one hand I do think the state should step in and tackle the obesity crisis through taxation.

And alcohol is a massive factor in obesity. Drinking high calorie drinks is one of the worst things you can do for your weight and health. You can pile on the pounds without eating anything.

But i'm uncomfortable with targeting a specific highly calorific product such as alcohol. It would be no different that targeting sausages or fried chicken or any other specific food product. And I would argue eating crappy food day in day out is far worse than a weekend alcohol binge.

edit: those that have an alcohol problem, those that drink most days, well that's a substance abuse issue, and I don't think that can be fixed by simply raising the minimum alcohol pricing.

if they did want to increase prices to stop people drinking as much they could raise excise duty. at least that way the extra money would go to the government not to the shops. But they wont do that because it would affect the pub trade as well and the publicans lobby is too strong.

ohnonotgmail · 13-01-2021 10:22am

Mimon wrote: »

The way he was talking it would directly effect them which it won't. You are just guessing what might happen.

it is an educated guess.

10000maniacs · 13-01-2021 12:31pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Scotland introduced MUP a few years ago and I believe there were a number of EU investigations and court cases about it's validity before it was finally introduced.

Scotland were pencilled in for leaving the EU via Brexit at that stage. It could be a different story with Ireland.

10000maniacs · 13-01-2021 12:36pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I agree that minimum pricing will not stop those that have an issue. However if we look back at the way smoking was reduced it was something similar. 50 years ago a portion of the population smoked. It took 50 years of a combination of measures to reduce smoking to where it is now.

I agree the obesity issue needs to be tackled as well. See the way come has reduced there can size and priced it below a euro in Convience shops. This is targeting children more than anything else.

Smoking and drinking are two different health concerns. Smoking has no redeeming features whatsoever, while beer and wine drinking have nutritional benefits if taken in moderation. They won't do any damage to your system unless you go overboard with them.

ohnonotgmail · 13-01-2021 12:40pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

Smoking and drinking are two different health concerns. Smoking has no redeeming features whatsoever, while beer and wine drinking have nutritional benefits if taken in moderation. They won't do any damage to your system unless you go overboard with them.

they also have social benefits if taken in moderation.

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-01-2021 1:11pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

Scotland were pencilled in for leaving the EU via Brexit at that stage. It could be a different story with Ireland.

The Scottish legislation was first introduced in 2012
The ECJ made their first ruling on it in Dec 2015

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35160396

Both before Brexit was even a word.

Brexit had nothing to do with it.

10000maniacs · 13-01-2021 1:14pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The Scottish legislation was first introduced in 2012
The ECJ made their first ruling on it in Dec 2015

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-35160396

Both before Brexit was even a word.

Brexit had nothing to do with it.

It was implemented on May 1st 2018 up to which time the EU could have appealed.

L1011 · 13-01-2021 2:11pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Scotland introduced MUP a few years ago and I believe there were a number of EU investigations and court cases about it's validity before it was finally introduced.

The EU effectively asked them to show that it was more effective than just taxing it based on trialing it. They left before they had to follow through fully on showing that.

The reduction in alcohol consumption there has been matched by an increase in drug use and drug harm & deaths - you can't prove they're connected, but its not hard to assume

We had a minimum price on cigarettes briefly that the EU overturned as we couldn't demonstrate that putting tax up wouldn't work as well.

murpho999 · 13-01-2021 2:21pm

I don't see why people are upset about this.

I love a few pints etc. More in the pub but since lockdown more at home.

I think over the last 6 months I've probably been drinking more over the course of a week than I normally would.

Either way, alcohol is not really good for us and having it separated in shops is a good thing. Not so much for adults now but for future generations where alcohol won't be just considered a normal product like it has done for years.

I can remember similar outcries of nanny statie approaches when other new laws came in such as wearing seat belts, drink driving restrictions and smoking bans and now they're all accepted as normal and we wouldn't change the laws.

I completely understand people being cynical of this in relation to lobbying and protecting of pub trade but I think in the long term Ireland would benefit by changing its relationship with alcohol somewhat and people would be healthier, social and domestic problems would ease also.

KungPao · 13-01-2021 2:43pm

^it’ll probably cause some more domestics in some cases, where Jimmy is now spending even more money on gargle and the arrears on the gas bill are getting worse. Jimmy won’t stop or reduce because of the cost, only if he really wants to.

Anyway, this country is really starting to get on my tits.

Macy0161 · 13-01-2021 2:52pm

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Yeah craft beer sales will definitely take a hit

Some of my favourites were always on the 4 for €10 so €2.50 a bottle

Individual price now €2.80 so it's a 12% increase thanks to the government

The craft beer specialists have already switched their sites to "€2.50/ €3/ etc range" from "4 for €10/ 4 for €12" etc.

I'd expect the multiples to follow suit, eventually, but they'll see whether they can get away with it first. And also, they won't want to be the story of getting around the law.

ShamNNspace · 13-01-2021 3:11pm

I am sick to the teeth of the nannying and these "charities" beating us up and guilt-tripping tripping us about our "relationship with alcohol", they surely wont be happy until we're paying scandinavian prices here and even then they won't be happy. I've lived in Germany, Holland, Aus and Africa and by and large our alcohol relationship is healthier than any of those countries, we drink mostly for company and for that release that a few pints give us from the daily grind. Its never been a mystery to me why we drink, we are a melancholy people, death stalks us every day and whether we eat our greens or hit the gym every day some day we will face our own mortality, what price then a small headache of a morning after an evening of joy and escapism with ones friends. I often hear talk of how many deaths alcohol has caused but how many has it saved? those few drinks with a few friends of an evening, that human contact, how many have been saved from the rope or the river by a few kind words that may only have been uttered after the tongue was lossened after a pint or two? I fear many are missing this contact in these times and by the death notices around here some of them may well have given up and withdrawn into themselves again and perhaps the loneliness got them in the end.. Alcohol is a gift that has brought me many good times but it needs to be respected, these new measures being pushed by the prohibitionistas do nothing for those who may have a problem with alcohol, never will, not in a month of sundays

10000maniacs · 13-01-2021 3:16pm

KungPao wrote: »

^it’ll probably cause some more domestics in some cases, where Jimmy is now spending even more money on gargle and the arrears on the gas bill are getting worse. Jimmy won’t stop or reduce because of the cost, only if he really wants to.

Anyway, this country is really starting to get on my tits.

I agree. It's the principle of MUP that annoys me.
The vast majority of the population have no problem with alcohol consumption.
But getting the slab of 24 for €23.99 at Christmas means an expensive time would be slightly less of an expense for parties and such.
If the Dail want to keep pubs buoyant, as is their hyperbolic aim in all of this, change their business model. €5.50 a pint upwards is taking the mick.
There are too many pubs in Ireland anyway.
I am from a small village in Ireland which has 7 pubs. Six too many in my opinion.

ballyargus · 13-01-2021 3:36pm

ShamNNspace wrote: »

I am sick to the teeth of the nannying and these "charities" beating us up and guilt-tripping tripping us about our "relationship with alcohol", they surely wont be happy until we're paying scandinavian prices here and even then they won't be happy. I've lived in Germany, Holland, Aus and Africa and by and large our alcohol relationship is healthier than any of those countries, we drink mostly for company and for that release that a few pints give us from the daily grind. Its never been a mystery to me why we drink, we are a melancholy people, death stalks us every day and whether we eat our greens or hit the gym every day some day we will face our own mortality, what price then a small headache of a morning after an evening of joy and escapism with ones friends. I often hear talk of how many deaths alcohol has caused but how many has it saved? those few drinks with a few friends of an evening, that human contact, how many have been saved from the rope or the river by a few kind words that may only have been uttered after the tongue was lossened after a pint or two? I fear many are missing this contact in these times and by the death notices around here some of them may well have given up and withdrawn into themselves again and perhaps the loneliness got them in the end.. Alcohol is a gift that has brought me many good times but it needs to be respected, these new measures being pushed by the prohibitionistas do nothing for those who may have a problem with alcohol, never will, not in a month of sundays

I back you 100%. Either get canvassing or get writing, you'll have my vote or I'll buy your book.

Bass Reeves · 13-01-2021 3:54pm

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

10000maniacs wrote: »

Smoking and drinking are two different health concerns. Smoking has no redeeming features whatsoever, while beer and wine drinking have nutritional benefits if taken in moderation. They won't do any damage to your system unless you go overboard with them.

Yes but minimum pricing will have little effect on those that drink for nutritional benefit. Those that drink in moderation or not at all will see those that drink excessively pay more tax. This reduces the tax burden on moderate drinkers.

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-01-2021 3:56pm

L1011 wrote: »

The EU effectively asked them to show that it was more effective than just taxing it based on trialing it. They left before they had to follow through fully on showing that.

The reduction in alcohol consumption there has been matched by an increase in drug use and drug harm & deaths - you can't prove they're connected, but its not hard to assume

We had a minimum price on cigarettes briefly that the EU overturned as we couldn't demonstrate that putting tax up wouldn't work as well.

They only fully left 2 weeks ago !

ECJ ruled in Dec 2015 that MUP it would breach EU trading rules if alternative tax measures could be introduced.

The UK Supreme court struck that down in Nov 2017

https://www.euractiv.com/section/alcohol/news/uk-supreme-court-approves-scottish-law-on-minimum-alcohol-pricing/

You could argue that Brexit was a factor in that striking down but I don't think the breath of UK Supreme Courts due diligence into a case includes attitudes like "feck it we will be out from under the ECJ soon enough lets strike this one down".

I'm guessing the Irish supreme court would also be well within it's rights to reject something from the ECJ.

ohnonotgmail · 13-01-2021 4:10pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes but minimum pricing will have little effect on those that drink for nutritional benefit. Those that drink in moderation or not at all will see those that drink excessively pay more tax. This reduces the tax burden on moderate drinkers.

MUP will have no effect on the tax paid on alcohol.

10000maniacs · 13-01-2021 4:11pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes but minimum pricing will have little effect on those that drink for nutritional benefit. Those that drink in moderation or not at all will see those that drink excessively pay more tax. This reduces the tax burden on moderate drinkers.

You are really missing the point there.

Snickers Man · 13-01-2021 4:31pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

If this means that I no longer get my "four for the price of three" bottles of my beloved Guiness West Indian Porter, I'll be pissed off!

Individually priced at €3.20 (down from €3.50 as was AFAIR) so effectively a €0.70 cent per bottle price rise, given that I only ever bought them in fours because, well, why wouldn't you?

I'M PISSED OFF!!!!

How do we go about "defunding" AAI?

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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