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Engagement Ring - FACTS, not fiction

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  • 21-12-2006 6:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭


    I'm starting this thread to dispell many of the inaccurate posts that I've seen on this forum over the last few months. Hopefully it will be of some use to people who are genuinely looking for assistance.

    Firstly, I am a qualified diamond grader. I trained for this several years ago in the International Gemological Instute (IGI) in Antwerp. I also hold a diploma in Science Studies (Gemmology) from NUIG. I have been working in the jewellery retail industry in Ireland full time for the last 8 years, and for 4 years part time prior to that.

    Diamonds.

    Diamonds are graded by what is commonly refered to as the 4 C's; Cut, Colour, Clarity and Carat.

    Cut refers to the shape, proportion and finish of the stone. A badly cut diamond will not refract light properly, making the stone look lifeless.
    Most common cuts include brilliant (round), princess (square), emerald (rectangular), and oval.

    Colour refers to the lack of colour in the stone. It's graded from D at the top of the scale to Z at the bottom. D,E & F are refered to as exceptional white, G,H & I as white, J & K as slightly tinted, and below that as tinted. Colour can be affected by fluorescense, as can value. Fluorescense in a high colour can devalue, and in a low colour up the value. This is all dependent on the level of fluorescense (whether it is light or strong). Colour can only be determined using a special "dialite" light.

    Clarity is the amount of inclusion in the stone, or internal marks. These can be black or clear, and are refered to as IF, VVS1-2, VS1-2, SI1-2, P1-2-3, depending on their size and position. A lot of inclusion will block light travelling through the stone, so the stone will be duller if it's bad. Clarity is always rated using a 10x triplet loupe.

    Carat is the physical weight of the stone. 1 carat = 0.2 grams. Prices will jump at the 1/2 and full carat marks, and sometimes at the 1/4 carats. Also, small diamonds aren't "chips"; they often have the same amount of cutting work gone into them as bigger stones.

    Certificates are the "passports" for a gemstone, stating all of the above. There are about 40 companies who certify stones, and of these there are only a handful whose certs are worth the paper they're printed on. A popular myth is that if a stone doesn't have a cert it isn't a diamond. This is rubbish. There are a lot of beautiful stones out there that aren't certified, and a lot of stones where the quality doesn't make the cost of certification viable. Generally, if the salesperson is trained, they can tell you what you need to know by looking at the diamond.

    Conflict diamonds are those whose sale are used to fund wars, and are illegal to trade. The term applies to some diamonds from around 1990 onwards. Don't worry to much about this, as most traders will have letters from their suppliers stating that they are "Conflict Free", who will in turn have letters from their suppliers, and so on up the chain.

    The metals used in diamond set rings are usually gold and platinum. American and Continental setting are often 14kt gold, wilst Ireland and Britain are more inclined toward 18kt. Pure gold is 24kt, which is never, despite popular belief, used to manufacture jewellery, as it is way too soft. 18kt gold is a mixture of 18 parts gold to 6 parts other metals to give it strength and colour. White gold is 18 parts gold and 6 parts of metals such as palladium, which gives it a whiter appearance. However, the predominant colour is still yellow, so the ring is rhodium plated. This plating may need to be redone every couple of years (depending on how good the plating is done, and what kind of wear the ring is getting), and should cost no more than €50. Platinum is a completely different, harder metal, which is also more expensive than gold. 18kt gold rings are sometimes stamped "750", 14kt stamped "585", and platinum "950".

    If you are buying abroad, bear in mind that the difference in price is generally the taxes charged in the country you're buying in. Retailers in Ireland have to pay 21% VAT and tax on their end of year profit. Not so in the likes of Dubai. Also bear in mind that a lot of the cut qualities of stones bought abroad aren't particularly good, and settings are also often not particularly well made. At least when you buy in Ireland, you can go back to the shop you bought it in if you have a problem.

    At the end of the day, talk to the salesperson in the shop you go in to. If they sound like they know what they're talking about, you'll be OK with them. Also, try rings until you see one you like on your hand; don't fill your head with nonsense of the internet or one of your friends wrong information before you go in. Finally, try a wedding band with the engagement ring, as that's the long-term look you're going to have, so you need to know that you can get a band to sit with it and look well.

    I hope that this helps people looking for information. If I think of anything that I may have missed, I'll add it later.

    Best of luck.

    Regards.

    David.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,386 ✭✭✭EKRIUQ


    Nice post, should be a sticky!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭Royale with Cheese


    I told my girlfriend that I thought rings were shít and pointless once, that didn't go down well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 sud


    fey,
    have you any experience of buying in New York,i have read a few dodgy things about the diamond district.Any advice would help as i am planning a trip soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    Did you read the OP?


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    +1 @ Fey


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭00112984


    Great advise, Fey. I'm not at all involved in the jewellery trade but did get to pick my own engagement ring out last year and found most of the information online very conflicting and confusing.

    At the end of the day, the most important thing for me was the fact that we were able to go to a reputable bricks-and-mortar jewellers and have a consultation rather than a sales pitch. We weren't hurried and had the use of a private area to try on loads of stuff and ask as many questions as possible.

    While there are probably savings to be made abroad, we found the peace of mind we got in buying at home to be priceless.

    Plus, the ring is stunning and there isn't another in the world I'd like more :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    Here's a tip: when shes asleep curl a measuring tape around her band finger before getting the ring so that they will match up.

    An additional thought is to measure at both cool and humid temperatures, for fingers expand and contract according to the surrounding air (more blood is encouraged in to offset overheating when warm).


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    BingoBongo wrote:
    Nice post, should be a sticky!
    It could get very sticky for some lads whose thoughts stray towards commitment?

    OP: Very informative about the 4Cs, indeed! Thanx.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    Here's a tip: when shes asleep curl a measuring tape around her band finger before getting the ring so that they will match up.

    An additional thought is to measure at both cool and humid temperatures, for fingers expand and contract according to the surrounding air (more blood is encouraged in to offset overheating when warm).

    I've had lads come into me with pieces of string!!! Also, good point about the fingers getting bigger and smaller with hot and cold weather; I completely forgot to add that in! Another one along the same line is that one hand is normally bigger than the other (if you're right handed, you're right hand is usually a bit bigger), so make sure you measure the right (or in this case LEFT) finger! :D

    These days the woman tends to be there when the ring is picked out, which can be much safer! :o

    Glad to see that the OP has been of some use to people. I don't know who made it a sticky - wasn't expecting that to happen! (must sort out putting an ad for our shop into my sig now.....:rolleyes: )


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    I told my girlfriend that I thought rings were shít and pointless once, that didn't go down well.
    If you don't want to fork out money for pointless diamond rings then just watch Blood Diamond with her - doesnt matter how much of it is true or not. I know it turned my girlfriend off diamonds for life. They are such a waste of money - just the product of marketing and economics.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    Hi Fey,

    I want to ask about grading. According to the GIA, VS1-2 contain inclusions that are impossible to see with the naked eye.

    I was viewing an IGI certified VS1-2 diamond that had inclusions that I could see with my naked eye. They were easily visible under the lens as black inclusions. How does this work? Are the grading criteria different for the IGI and the GIA?

    The jeweller told me that the GIA examine diamonds from all angles while grading while the IGI graded diamonds are graded only from the top-view down. Is that true or a load of old cack? I know you are an IGI grader so please try to be unbiased in your reply.

    I'd be interested to know first of all if that is true, secondly whether the IGI cert for the diamond with visible inclusions was correct and thirdly what the differences are between the grading criteria for these groups.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    I don't think that there is a difference in criteria between GIA and IGI.

    To me, if you can see an inclusion with the naked eye it should be a P1 or worse (pique, pronounced PK). Some places refer to these as SI3.

    With the IGI, you inspect the diamonds from all angles, but the rating is based on what you see looking from the table facet (top) down through the diamond. I think, but amn't 100% sure, that the GIA operates in this fashion too.

    The grading refers to the position and size of the inclusion, as well as whether or not it is black or clear. A small white inclusion close to the girdle may achieve a VVS clarity, whilst a similar sized and positioned black inclusion may be graded as VS. A black inclusion under the table will usually rate an SI if it's small, and P if it's big enough to be seen without the loupe. One of the problems is that after you've inspected a diamond through the loupe and seen something, your eye may zero in on it!

    If I recall correctly, the HRD, GIA and IGI use an arbitrator system; 1 person grades the stone, then another grades it. If the 2 don't match, a third person grades it and majority rules.

    Another problem can be that the inclusion is reflected inside the diamond, or that a small bit of dirt on the back of the stone can be magnified, making it look like an inclusion. Or you can have a reflection from the setting (that's why diamonds are only graded unset - the setting can effect the look of the colour and the clarity, as well as hiding other things; that said, anyone competent in a retailers will know how to allow for this).

    Reading this again, I think I may have just confused things even more!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    No, I followed it all just fine, thanks for the answers :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    Hey Fey,

    quick question, maybe you can help. I bought an engagement for my gf in one of the jewellers off Grafton street. The problem is the ring now has lots of marks on it. They are like little nicks and scratches. Some of them are deep enough. The ring is yellow gold. We brought it back and the jeweller said there is nothing wrong with the gold in the ring. He polished it up and removed the marks but said they could not keep doing this as everytime it is done a layer of gold is removed from the ring. The shop told us that my girlfriend must be doing some repetative task, like tapping her ring against something (probably metallic) and this is causing the damage. She has racked her brains and can't think of anything though.

    Have you heard of this happening before? We spend a lot of money on this ring and it is very disappointing for us that it seems to be damaged so easily. My mothers engagement ring is over 30 years old and is in better condition.

    Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    I've had that happen once, and it turned out that the girl was lifting weights while she was wearing the ring, and the diamond pattern on the bars was digging into the gold!!!

    I take it that the ring has scratched again since they polished it. Was the ring sized for your g/f when you bought it (this won't have caused it; I'm asking to avoid possible unnecessary explanations!!!)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    Fey! wrote:
    I've had that happen once, and it turned out that the girl was lifting weights while she was wearing the ring, and the diamond pattern on the bars was digging into the gold!!!

    I take it that the ring has scratched again since they polished it. Was the ring sized for your g/f when you bought it (this won't have caused it; I'm asking to avoid possible unnecessary explanations!!!)

    Hi Fey,

    thanks for the reply. Yes it is scratched again. The ring was sized for her. She doesn't lift weights or so any physical work. She works as a teacher.

    Thanks again


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    Yo Fey!

    anything else to add to this?

    Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    I haven't forgotten you; I've asked a couple of people about it and all that they have come up with is porosity in the metal. However, this should have been noticed when the ring was cut to be sized (unless it was just stretched up a couple of sizes instead of cut and pieced, both of which are common practice).

    Is the shank of the ring (the band) very very thin?

    Sorry to take so long with the reply; I wanted to be sure of my reply rather than just putting in inaccurate suggestions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    Hi Fey,

    thanks for the reply. No, the shank doesn't seem very thin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    helterskelter -

    it definately sounds like she's doing someting to the ring, albeit unknowingly. it's not necessarily that it's hitting anything metal, but if it's happening so quickly then it's probably something she does most days. (lifting something, banging it against the car door, who's to know. takes it off for a couple of days, and tries to observe what hits her hand, it might dawn on her.

    another point to make is that the first few scratches on something really show up. after there are a few in different orientations, a "patina" develops which gives the metal a warmer muted tone, as the light is reflected in a different manner. this is probably why the 30 year old ring looks better. one scratch on a shiny polised surface really shows up badly. this is nothing to do with the deep scratches, mind. that's something else altogether.

    you could consider re-shanking the ring if it's thin, but you might spoil the look of the ring if you start making changes to it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 rosy-bee


    Hi Fey,

    Thanks for your OP, it was very informative :) I have noticed across a few different threads that you mention buying antique rings... I love antique rings and that is what I'm looking for - do you have any particular advice for buying antique rings???


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    Simplest advice, be it a new or old ring, is find one that you love on your hand. With an old one there may be some wear on the setting, but most people selling them will have the settings checked.

    Quality-wise, if the diamonds are good they'll sparkle, and if they're bad they won't (I realise that that may seem over simplified, but it's a good rule of thumb).

    Bear in mind that up to very recent years there wasn't the same fisation with diamond colour, certification, etc; they're a marketing tool used by shops now. So don't shop for old as you might do for new.

    There are some amazing old rings available out there; just have a bit of patience and you'll eventually find the right one.

    Also, try the ring with a wedding band to see the longterm look, and always try and see the ring in daylight; they're personal rules of mine be it a new or an old ring.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    Hi lads,

    thanks for the replies. Might see if I can get a good photo of the damage and post it here, maybe you could give your opinions on it.

    Thanks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    rosy-bee wrote:
    Hi Fey,

    Thanks for your OP, it was very informative :) I have noticed across a few different threads that you mention buying antique rings... I love antique rings and that is what I'm looking for - do you have any particular advice for buying antique rings???


    hey rosy-bee,
    i'd second everything fey has mentioned, and suggest you consider a few other things:

    look for obvious signs of wear. the ring will be very old, it's important that it's in good nick. typically, the standard of workmanship in an old ring will be higher than a new one, so this shouldn't be an issue, but be sure to ask about condition. if there's a problem with the ring it'll stand out.

    old rings won't be hallmarked. this is normal, and is due to different regulations about what needed a hallmark over the lat 100 years. many will have a stamp "plat" or something like that. whether it does or not, don't worry, it'll still be a precious metal!

    in general it's no big deal to get a lab certificate for an old diamond, just ask the shop - in the odd case it's not possible to take the stone out of the setting.

    apart from that, apply the same concerns that you would with a new ring, colour/clarity etc, and the most important thing is that you love the ring.

    good luck with the hunt!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 rosy-bee


    Fey and Keyes...

    Thanks for the advice - I found a gorgeous antique ring on Saturday and I love it!!! Can't stop looking at it sparkle :D:D:D:D:D

    Thanks again,

    Rosy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    Rosy - glad to hear that you got sorted. Enjoy it, and well wear.

    Pokoyo - shopping around in Ireland may have saved you the same without the cost of flights and accomadation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 Jessicat


    Hi Fay,

    I've recently just got engaged. I chose a platinum setting as the jeweller said it was a stronger metal than the white gold and it would need less maintenance. I notice from other peoples rings that platinum can get quite dull - is there any way of stopping this from happening without having to get it re-polished by a jeweller?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    What the jeweller told you is correct; the platinum is stronger, and won't yellow like white gold will. It's also a much more difficult metal to work with!

    There is no way that I can think of to stop the metal getting slightly dull, except to possibly get it rhodium plated in the same way as you would with white gold. Whilst platinum isn't supposed to lose it's finish, it sometimes does. However, it doesn't always, so you could be lucky.

    My advice is don't panic about it; if it gets dull you can get it polished or plated, but that could be a few years down the road. Wear it and enjoy it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    Jessicat wrote:
    Hi Fay,

    I've recently just got engaged. I chose a platinum setting as the jeweller said it was a stronger metal than the white gold and it would need less maintenance. I notice from other peoples rings that platinum can get quite dull - is there any way of stopping this from happening without having to get it re-polished by a jeweller?

    Platinums true colour is a matt grey; when you buy the ring, it has been given a high polish. (same way as a new car is nice'n'shiny). Obviously with day to day wear the high shiny polish wears off a bit. You can try to restore it a bit yourself with a soft cloth, but really a jeweller will need it to bring it right back to "as-new".

    The difference between white gold and platinum in terms of strength is not critical. While technically platinum is stronger, but both are sufficently strong to be used in jewellery. If someone is doing something to their ring that damages it, it matters little which metal the ring is made of. The primary reason to choose platinum over white gold (IMHO) is colour; white gold goes a tiny bit yellow over the years (as the whitener lifts off), platinum goes grey. Both need phodium plating once in a while (before a bit night out is the best time!), and both need similar amounts of care.

    Most jewellers are (or should be) happy to clean a ring that they have sold.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭Fey!


    Deleted.

    Sorry!


This discussion has been closed.
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