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Engagement Ring - FACTS, not fiction

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 sandy09


    hi,
    i would really appreciate some advice......getting ring made...three stone....middle diamond is .28ct and side stones are .22ct. Will this be very small? they are not in a claw setting but surrounded by platnium if that makes sense??:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 kitesurfingbum


    most shops in Ireland will charge around €1000.
    you should be able to bargain with your supplier for a setting.
    I purchased online and was able to get any setting of her choosing in Platinum for €500


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    I know you mentioned that travel was out

    but aer lingus are doing tax only flights, you could get to antwerp for about 50e and return the same day.

    You can make arrangements before hand to meet with a number of jewelers and most will set the ring there and then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 elodie100


    Hi Fey,
    really like the advice you give people on this site. all the talk seems to be about yellow or white gold or platinum. is rose gold out of vogue? i'd like something classic and timeless. afraid if i went for something seen as out of date, then it'll be even more dated in years to come. thanks :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 wlyttle


    What's really popular at the moment is a mixture of yellow gold and platinum, the band being yellow gold and the diamonds set in Platinum.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 Relaxed Frankie


    Hi, looking for some advice on a ring. We havent really gone beyond window shopping much but we spotted a really nice ring in the window of a second hand shop in Dublin today. I tried it on and it was beautiful but we know so little about diamonds so we decided to do some research before we buy. It's a 3 stone 18k white gold ring, .40 carats in total across the three stones and the sales person told me it was H and SI, however I forgot to ask about the cut... It was priced at €500, does this sound like a good deal?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭whatdoicare


    Hiya, just out of a jewellers today getting my wedding ring made (funny shaped engagement ring) she quoted me white gold price and also offered me a price for paladium as an alternative. What are your opinions on this metal? I've never heard of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,091 ✭✭✭Biro


    Hiya, just out of a jewellers today getting my wedding ring made (funny shaped engagement ring) she quoted me white gold price and also offered me a price for paladium as an alternative. What are your opinions on this metal? I've never heard of it.

    I think it's similar in properties to platinum. It's used in Catylitic Converters. So is Platinum I think, so they could be of the same family.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭whatdoicare


    Biro wrote: »
    I think it's similar in properties to platinum. It's used in Catylitic Converters. So is Platinum I think, so they could be of the same family.
    I was googling it there and it said something similar. I've never heard of it before in my life. The jeweller offered me it for more than 300 euro less than the price for the same ring in gold. I think I might go for it- I'll have to find out if it'll damage my engagement ring though- she said it wouldn't but still, no harm finding out for myself.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hi! I'm looking for some advice on shopping for an antique ring.

    Are antique rings more expensive than new ones? Is it going to be more expensive to buy a ring in Dublin or should I be looking for antique shops down the country?

    Any other advice or tips?

    Thanks!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13 fuzz11


    hi everyone. i just got engaged and have found an antique ring in inne in killarney.here are the details- 18kt white gold band, sapphire and diamond cluster, colour H and clarity vs1-€1950.. is this reasonable? i avnt a clue....big decision and noone wants to be ripped off... any feedback appreciated


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    fuzz11 wrote: »
    hi everyone. i just got engaged and have found an antique ring in inne in killarney.here are the details- 18kt white gold band, sapphire and diamond cluster, colour H and clarity vs1-€1950.. is this reasonable? i avnt a clue....big decision and noone wants to be ripped off... any feedback appreciated

    Hi there, just my tuppence worth but a lot of local jewellers traditionally pushed colour over cut and clarity. I wouldn't worry about a H at all. Most jewellers push G or H. But then don't supply objective independent certification (almost guaranteed that an antique ring will have no such thing, by the way).

    Cut can make an I or a J diamond better to look at than a G that is poorly cut. Cut implies man-hours, workmanship. I can tell you that cut is almost always poorer on antique diamonds compared to what they can get out of lesser diamonds today; due to improvements in technolgy / processes.

    It sounds a little dear to me, but that's a shot in the dark as you haven't supplied total carat weight or the make-up of the diamonds. Is there a large centre diamond for instance?


    Best wishes with your purchase.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    Hi! I'm looking for some advice on shopping for an antique ring.

    Are antique rings more expensive than new ones? Is it going to be more expensive to buy a ring in Dublin or should I be looking for antique shops down the country?

    Any other advice or tips?

    Thanks!

    I've seen a number of threads either here or on askaboutmoney.com all about buying antique rings. The only caveat I would advise is that you generally don't get the same sparkle from an antique ring, all other Cs being equal, as the Cut will not be as exacting as it can be with modern technology and processes. If its important to you that you know your diamond is a D or an E etc, then great. But if its important to you that it lights up like a laser, then its all about Cut, Fluorescence etc etc. Rarely colour. If you can afford a D diamond, you don't need to be asking prices :) .

    There's a number of good auctions in Dublin with good reports back anecdotally either on Boards or AAM.

    Best of luck


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    ...you generally don't get the same sparkle from an antique ring, all other Cs being equal, as the Cut will not be as exacting as it can be with modern technology and processes. If its important to you that you know your diamond is a D or an E etc, then great. But if its important to you that it lights up like a laser, then its all about Cut, Fluorescence etc etc.

    the key thing is the quality of the diamond, not the age.

    cut is important, but it's the combination of a good cut and good colour that'll make a nice diamond. if a diamond is naturally J colour, then it'll never be white. you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    i'd agree that those two matter more than clarity, but i think it's very dodgy to just recommend one.

    all the elements need to be good, if you focus on just one you'll make a mistake!

    bear in mind that the "modern" cut was invented in the 1800s, and it that standard since about 1920. a diamond that was cut in 1975 will be the same as one from 1925.
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Most jewellers push G or H. But then don't supply objective independent certification (almost guaranteed that an antique ring will have no such thing, by the way).

    any diamond can be certificated. if someone is putting a lot of money into a diamond, any diamond, it should have a certificate.
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Cut can make an I or a J diamond better to look at than a G that is poorly cut.

    no it can't!!! :)
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    I can tell you that cut is almost always poorer on antique diamonds compared to what they can get out of lesser diamonds today; due to improvements in technolgy / processes.

    modern brillianteering is still done by hand. technology plays very little part in diamond cutting; you're as likely to get a badly cut modern stone as antique stone. the very old cuts, the cushion cuts, actually have more fire than a modern cut.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    Yes, I agree that any diamond can be certified but its all about who authenticates the cert. It must be from an independent body of repute. And most of the older and antique rings (and I think the OP meant more Victorian><1920s than 1975 :) ) won't have that kind of independent certification. Of course, an independent jeweller who specialises in certification could do it for you; but its not the same thing at all. But that's common to all diamonds of a certain age.

    Yes some cutting techniques have not improved / disimproved.

    An Ri Rua "Cut can make an I or a J diamond better to look at than a G that is poorly cut."
    Keyes>>"no it can't!!!"

    But some jewellers may 'tell' you a ring is G or H or whatever or quote improper certs, but of course they may not be to that standard. I still contend that if there's no fluorescence present, that a J can stand up to a H and an I can stand comparison to a G. To the naked eye that is. Most of a girl's girlfriends won't be carrying a jeweller's loupe in that handbag.....!


    Keyes "all the elements need to be good, if you focus on just one you'll make a mistake!"
    Yes, I agree fully with that. It is ALL of the factors that go to make a great diamond. That's why anyone buying should take their time and get to know the lingo. That's not easily done at all in a jewellers. Best done in the comfort of your own home.

    But I would still sacrifice colour for cut every time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Yes, I agree that any diamond can be certified but its all about who authenticates the cert. It must be from an independent body of repute. And most of the older and antique rings (and I think the OP meant more Victorian><1920s than 1975 :) ) won't have that kind of independent certification. Of course, an independent jeweller who specialises in certification could do it for you; but its not the same thing at all. But that's common to all diamonds of a certain age.

    a diamond from 1925, 1975 and 2009 will be cut the same. (or CAN have been cut the same, you're as likely to get a bad cut form today as from the 20s). to be frank, i can't remember the last time i was even offered a badly cut stone. they rarely get to the european market, and are sold mainly in other parts of the world.

    but you've hit on a key point. who backs up the cert? how do you know that the cert if for that diamond? you have to trust the shop you buy from. i have seen cases where the diamond does not match the cert the customer was given, even one case of human error (i hope!) from a large, reputable dublin shop where the cert was two grades better than the diamond.

    certs were first done in the 1920s. it's a simple procedure to get a cert, even with an antique stone. the age shouldn't matter.
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    But some jewellers may 'tell' you a ring is G or H or whatever or quote improper certs, but of course they may not be to that standard.

    you have to trust the person you're buying off. that's ok if they are experts, not so reliable if they are just salespeople! even a bad cert can give useful information, but you have to take it all in context. a person with blind faith in a cert is a dodgy salesman's dream customer.
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    I still contend that if there's no fluorescence present, that a J can stand up to a H and an I can stand comparison to a G. To the naked eye that is. Most of a girl's girlfriends won't be carrying a jeweller's loupe in that handbag.....!

    i'd disagree, but there you go!
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    But I would still sacrifice colour for cut every time.

    i'd say the exact opposite, (provided the cut is not dreadful, but like i said you'll probably never see a bad cut), but that's just my opinion!


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    Here's a page looking at body-tint (colour) versus face-up whiteness and light return for the near-colourless range. All stones look to be AGS000 and/or GIA triple Ex.

    http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Color/NearColorless/

    The effects can be very subtle to the human eye, but there's probably no doubt that similarly cut stones D and H beside each other will be identifiable by anyone. On their own though, it's a lot more difficult to draw any kind of distinction. If size is the most pressing issue I'd line up the importance of other factors as: cut, colour and clarity. With bottom lines at Ex cut (GIA/AGS/HRD labs), H, SI1 (from a trustworthy vendor who can give an opinion on eye-cleaness at 6-8 inches in different lights) and moving upwards with the size of the stone, most likely) -- but all personal preference.

    If you do your homework on cut quality and lab grading quality, and explore what your limitations are for the look you want and what you're able to live with mentally for clarity, you have a lot more scope.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    Intothesea wrote: »

    it's an interesting site, but i'd be sceptical of anyone who says that GIA and EGL are on a par.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    The effects can be very subtle to the human eye, but there's probably no doubt that similarly cut stones D and H beside each other will be identifiable by anyone.

    true. and probably true also of a G colour.

    this thing is, you can say similar things about cut grade. line up an excellent cut, very good and a good, and i don't think anyone can tell them apart.

    the difference between excellent and very good might just be some pointings, or even one or two asymmetric facet junctions below the girdle. the naked eye could not detect that. anyone who thinks they can should tell NASA to get rid of the hubble telescope, and employ them instead. likewise, good cut grade is going to give a beautiful diamond.

    in the european market, it is very rare to come across a poor or even a fair cut grade diamond. generally the shops will not stock them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    keyes wrote: »
    it's an interesting site, but i'd be sceptical of anyone who says that GIA and EGL are on a par.

    I think he's referring to EGL USA, which is taken to be more accurate than its European counterpart. He's also selling top-class performance diamonds for excellent prices cf. Ireland.
    true. and probably true also of a G colour.

    this thing is, you can say similar things about cut grade. line up an excellent cut, very good and a good, and i don't think anyone can tell them apart.

    the difference between excellent and very good might just be some pointings, or even one or two asymmetric facet junctions below the girdle. the naked eye could not detect that. anyone who thinks they can should tell NASA to get rid of the hubble telescope, and employ them instead. likewise, good cut grade is going to give a beautiful diamond.

    All other things being equal, cut variations might be undetectable at the level of facet lineup, but comparatively disorganise light return, or else why the distinction? To say there's no difference to the eye between excellent, very good and good cut is nonsense. If you're saying the average consumer isn't in a position to compare and contrast knowledgeably, giving rise to an effective 'no difference' -- that I can believe.
    in the european market, it is very rare to come across a poor or even a fair cut grade diamond. generally the shops will not stock them.

    I'm aware that the average good Irish jeweller generally uses very good /good cuts, F to H color and probably any eye-clean clarity. The idea of specifically getting what you pay for is a hazy concept in Ireland though, and greater consumer awareness of the differences will drive seller's detailed information up, and margins down. Jewellers who realise this and change accordingly will survive the sea-change, unless they're Tiffany ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    Intothesea wrote: »
    I think he's referring to EGL USA, which is taken to be more accurate than its European counterpart. He's also selling top-class performance diamonds for excellent prices cf. Ireland.

    EGL USA are better than other branches, but they're still no GIA or HRD!

    i checked his prices. a 1 carat F VS2 for almost ten grand, then VAT on top of that, and possibly a setting? not cheap at all, even if he throws in a setting.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    All other things being equal, cut variations might be undetectable at the level of facet lineup, but comparatively disorganise light return, or else why the distinction? To say there's no difference to the eye between excellent, very good and good cut is nonsense.

    between excellent and very good, yes, if the nature of the issues causing VG are as i outlined. between good and excellent, possibly as well.

    you're assuming disorganised light return is a bad thing in itself. some amount of asymettric facet organisation of top relative to bottom can generate pleasing light return, and high levels of scintillation.

    i suggest people interested in it read the edition of gems and gemmology where the GIA outlined their cut grading system. i don't have the reference to hand, i think it's from about 2005.

    the GIA struggled for a long time to create a cut grading system; it's because a pleasant cut is subjective. light return can be measured, but beauty cannot. cut is the only one of the four C's that is subjective. it's a very complicated thing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    keyes wrote: »
    EGL USA are better than other branches, but they're still no GIA or HRD!

    i checked his prices. a 1 carat F VS2 for almost ten grand, then VAT on top of that, and possibly a setting? not cheap at all, even if he throws in a setting.

    I invite other readers to carry out comparative pricing themselves before reaching any conclusions.
    between excellent and very good, yes, if the nature of the issues causing VG are as i outlined. between good and excellent, possibly as well.

    you're assuming disorganised light return is a bad thing in itself. some amount of asymettric facet organisation of top relative to bottom can generate pleasing light return, and high levels of scintillation.

    Of course I'm assuming that disorganised light pathways in a stone affect the overall brilliance of that stone. Why else would Tolkowsky and subsequent perfectors of the round brilliant cut spend their years perfecting and systematizing angle combinations for maximum performance?

    The difference between excellent, very good and good cuts are not apparent to the naked eye under typical jeweller's spotlighting -- but once taken out under grey Irish skies, the differences are readily noticeable, I find. Cut quality is a very succinct way to gauge the overall response of the stone. However, the average consumer typically doesn't have an excellent cut to compare it to, so it remains undetected and undetectable -- until a friend shows up with a blue nile (for example) GIA triple Ex. This is a phenomenon I see occuring more and more with the advent of internet sourcing of stones.
    the GIA struggled for a long time to create a cut grading system; it's because a pleasant cut is subjective. light return can be measured, but beauty cannot. cut is the only one of the four C's that is subjective. it's a very complicated thing.the four C's that is subjective. it's a very complicated thing.

    Absolutely it's a complicated thing, but not beyond the average person to be able to appreciate. I do acknowledge that Irish jewellers are particularly adept at balancing all factors to give an excellent overall result. But with the advent of consumer education the requirement for a sliding scale of quality and cost, instead of the present system of consumers buying essentially without choice mid-range selections but paying for top-end items -- is rapidly closing in. In the States average jewellers are moving onto the internet to compete, offering 100% upgrade and long-return policies. If (e.g.) Blue Nile head down a similar road, I wouldn't like to see what happens to average Irish jewellers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    Intothesea wrote: »
    Just to come back to this, a 1 ct F VS2, according to diamond.ie 's pricelist



    Comes in at $9029, or 6050 Euro. Add on 21% VAT = 7320 Euro.

    I.e. buying a superior stone and importing it still saves approx. three grand, more than enough cash for a nice platinum setting,
    and that's including a 30-day return policy and a permanent trade-up policy. Not bad at all.

    one large dublin jewellers has been advertising a 1 ct F VS for 7000 in a heavy platinum setting lately, on the front page of the times.

    the thing is, there is not one set of proportions that is correct. personal preference matters. to suggest that one diamond is "better" cut than another is inaccurate. this is the GIA's own opinion, not mine. it's not like colour, where you can definatively say that a D is whiter than a G, for example.

    you only want excellent cut grade, fair enough, it's your call. but it's not correct to be dogmatic about it, as different people like different cuts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    keyes wrote: »
    one large dublin jewellers has been advertising a 1 ct F VS for 7000 in a heavy platinum setting lately, on the front page of the times.

    No mention of cut grade or light performance I'm sure, but sure there's always some sucker who'll think he's getting a great deal ;)
    Today 7000 Euro is worth $10,525.
    the thing is, there is not one set of proportions that is correct. personal preference matters. to suggest that one diamond is "better" cut than another is inaccurate. this is the GIA's own opinion, not mine. it's not like colour, where you can definatively say that a D is whiter than a G, for example.

    That much is obvious, insofar as selecting a diamond involves a subjective judgement on 'beauty'. The value-for-money problem in the Irish market is that the consumer isn't given an option, for example, to choose if he prefers an excellent cut and its relatively better performance, and a very good cut, with it's potentially lesser-but-pleasing performance. The prices the end consumer pays bear no relation to anything specific apart from 'white sparkly rock, looking great under unnatural light conditions'.


    I haven't anywhere suggested that colours are non-tangible, but do agree that a definitively better cut can 'mask' a not-so-great colour to some degree. This is not a bad money-saving device, once you have enough information to choose.
    you only want excellent cut grade, fair enough, it's your call. but it's not correct to be dogmatic about it, as different people like different cuts.

    For the money you pay in Irish jewellers, I think everyone is entitled to a top-end cut!! :) It's not quite dogmaticism but I am concerned that Irish people are like sitting ducks before their jewellers, unaware of their many options. With the way local jewellers offer goods, people don't know which cuts they prefer, or even if they could live with lower colours for less cash.

    And with that, I'll leave off. If anyone is interested in how you go about the American end of importation, which jewellers to trust etc. I'll be happy to answer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    Intothesea wrote: »
    No mention of cut grade or light performance I'm sure, but sure there's always some sucker who'll think he's getting a great deal ;)

    jump to conclusions much? you're basing that on nothing but your own preconceptions. the shop offering that is a large, highly respected international brand.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    The value-for-money problem in the Irish market is that the consumer isn't given an option, for example, to choose if he prefers an excellent cut and its relatively better performance, and a very good cut, with it's potentially lesser-but-pleasing performance.

    you obviously go into in the wrong shops.
    Intothesea wrote: »
    I haven't anywhere suggested that colours are non-tangible, but do agree that a definitively better cut can 'mask' a not-so-great colour to some degree. QUOTE]

    i disagree, but there you go.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    For the money you pay in Irish jewellers, I think everyone is entitled to a top-end cut!! :) It's not quite dogmaticism but I am concerned that Irish people are like sitting ducks before their jewellers, unaware of their many options. With the way local jewellers offer goods, people don't know which cuts they prefer, or even if they could live with lower colours for less cash..

    you should shop around more. the more my customers know, the happier i am.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    And with that, I'll leave off. If anyone is interested in how you go about the American end of importation, which jewellers to trust etc. I'll be happy to answer.

    i worked for a while in the states. there are chancers and cowboys there too, you know!


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    keyes wrote: »
    jump to conclusions much? you're basing that on nothing but your own preconceptions. the shop offering that is a large, highly respected international brand.

    Ah, the attack starts (or, "The Jeweller Goes for the Jugular!"). It's not beyond basic common sense to surmise that a 7-grand deal on the ring you describe (which no one can verify apart from your good self) is as a result of some unsavory item descriptions not mentioned on the advertisement. Tiffany are down in the mouth enough to offer a deal like this are they? hehe.
    you obviously go into in the wrong shops.

    I've noticed this dismissive type statement throughout the rest of this thread when the implication is that Irish jewellers aim to make a nice fat margin out of consumer ignorance. ;) You could argue better in your favour, and in the favour of all Irish jewellers if you argued openly and with hard facts, not the stream of negative implication and subtle scare tactics evident throughout the rest of this thread. One that is apparently dedicated to FACT!! and not fiction. 'Vaguely' is what I make of that.

    you should shop around more. the more my customers know, the happier i am.

    That's interesting, because you'd try to tell the rest of your potential customers that something as fundamental as cut doesn't really matter. I think you should peruse the internet more, and find out what your customers are eventually going to walk in through your door and demand. Don't say you haven't been warned! :)
    i worked for a while in the states. there are chancers and cowboys there too, you know!

    Absolutely, and that's why I'm a fairly active consumer advocate Stateside as well. And truth be told, falling into the wrong hands in the US is usually more injurious that the equivalent in Ireland, but still no reason to take what you're offered without question, like the jeweller is doing you a favour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    Intothesea wrote: »
    Ah, the attack starts (or, "The Jeweller Goes for the Jugular!"). It's not beyond basic common sense to surmise that a 7-grand deal on the ring you describe (which no one can verify apart from your good self) is as a result of some unsavory item descriptions not mentioned on the advertisement. Tiffany are down in the mouth enough to offer a deal like this are they? hehe.

    i have no interest in attacking anyone. i'm trying to explain the truth to you. but once again, you've jumped to a conclusion; it's not tiffany's, nor is there a problem with the diamonds in that shop. anyone who can buy an irish times can verify the ad. shall i PM you next time i see it?

    the conclusion you jump to is that there is something unsavoury about the price, rather than it a good deal. why are good deals only good deals in the states? you are refusing to listen. any point i make, you counter with "well, it's obviously a con" type responses, and that people who buy it are "suckers". it's distasteful, and inaccurate.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    I've noticed this dismissive type statement throughout the rest of this thread when the implication is that Irish jewellers aim to make a nice fat margin out of consumer ignorance. ;) You could argue better in your favour, and in the favour of all Irish jewellers if you argued openly and with hard facts, not the stream of negative implication and subtle scare tactics evident throughout the rest of this thread. One that is apparently dedicated to FACT!! and not fiction. 'Vaguely' is what I make of that.

    i meant precisely what i said. if you deal with "mere" salespeople, interested in their commission and nothing else, who don't truly understand diamonds, you should shop elsewhere. nothing scary about that. common sense i'd say.

    i'm not in favour of all irish jewellers. they're the competition!!! :)
    Intothesea wrote: »
    That's interesting, because you'd try to tell the rest of your potential customers that something as fundamental as cut doesn't really matter. I think you should peruse the internet more, and find out what your customers are eventually going to walk in through your door and demand. Don't say you haven't been warned! :)

    where did i say that cut doesn't matter? i DID say that the difference between excellent and very cut as a cut grade can be impossible to tell apart, and possibly betwen good and excellent. when i get customers who ask about cut grade, i explain clearly and thoroughly, with examples, the differences.

    customers are what put bread on my table. i would never pull the wool over their eyes. they can ask for what they wish, i am here to serve them. i am also here to help them choose, and to share my experience if they require it.
    Intothesea wrote: »
    no reason to take what you're offered without question, like the jeweller is doing you a favour.

    you should choose not to shop in a shop where you are getting that vibe.

    everything i have stated, i have been clear to draw a distinction between my opinion and fact. i have acknowledged your opinion, even though i disagree with it. you keep attacking my opinion, implying that i'm out to rip people off in some manner, or mislead them. it's very aggresive. i come on here to help people, and occasionally point out errors. had an opinion been initially stated about the cut qualities of antique stones, then fine, i'd have not bothered to reply. when certina things were stated it as a fact, i thought it appropriate to put the other side forward, but stating both facts and opinions, and distinguishing each.

    i have no angle in coming on here. i have nothing to sell. i repeatedly decline to tell people where i work. i post only when i think i can help to clarify a point.

    as for a fact:

    the GIA, in the creation of a cut grading system, state repeatedly that cut grading is subjective; that no one set of parameters is "ideal"; that the viewer should decide for themselves what they like and don't like. pagel-thiessen agrees. do you require better references than that? if you are very interested, i have a list of books you might like to read. PM me for it.

    your arguement seems to centre around "excellent must be better, otherwise why is there a scale?", which is a valid question. had you simply asked that, i'd have been delighted to tell you. the answer is very interesting. but when you seem hellbent on attacking me and my opinion, i really can't be bothered to help you. the booklist i have will explain it all.

    have a nice weekend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    i have no interest in attacking anyone. i'm trying to explain the truth to you. but once again, you've jumped to a conclusion; it's not tiffany's, nor is there a problem with the diamonds in that shop. anyone who can buy an irish times can verify the ad. shall i PM you next time i see it?

    It's immaterial in an internet discussion what occurs on the front page of any printed media. Suffice to say that the average reader has enough sense to notice the 100% overlap between the specs I compared and saved 3000 Euro with in the post above and your miracle find. It's enough to make a cattery laugh ;)



    This guy reckons he sells at half the cost of the average Irish jeweller. He's so confident in the relative cheapness of his wares that he's posting up a pricelist for everyone to see! His 1 carat I colour SI1 clarity solitaire in a white gold setting is running 7200 Euro -- what do you think he'd charge for an F, VS2, and in a thick platinum setting no less?

    Ah, according to normal-format charging in Ireland -- about 9500 Euro I would suspect. Readers can ring up their jewellers and enquire about the cost of a spec. like that; which according to the GIA cert he's showing there involves a very good cut, excellent polish and very good symmetry.
    the conclusion you jump to is that there is something unsavoury about the price, rather than a good deal. why are good deals only good deals in the states? you are refusing to listen. any point i make, you counter with "well, it's obviously a con" type responses, and that people who buy it are "suckers". it's distasteful, and inaccurate.

    Well, the conclusion I mostly jump to is that the advertisement claim belongs to an Irish jeweller who's currently in an argument defending against the rip-off jewellery culture which exists in Ireland. 2 + 2 = ??! :D

    i meant precisely what i said. if you deal with "mere" salespeople, interested in their commission and nothing else, who don't truly understand diamonds, you should shop elsewhere. nothing scary about that. common sense i'd say.

    You meant precisely to dismiss my overall input here. I'd say you didn't succeed.
    i'm not in favour of all irish jewellers. they're the competition!!! :)

    Not as much as cheaper foreign jewellers are, as evidenced by the way you tried to discredit Mr Good Old Gold by trying to make us believe that he thinks EGL USA and GIA to be on an absolute par! So distasteful this sly discrediting of foreign businesspeople, tut tut, and rampant all over this thread too, I might add.
    where did i say that cut doesn't matter? i DID say that the difference between excellent and very cut as a cut grade can be impossible to tell apart, and possibly betwen good and excellent. when i get customers who ask about cut grade, i explain clearly and thoroughly, with examples, the differences.

    Let's see:
    keyes wrote: »
    you can say similar things about cut grade. line up an excellent cut, very good and a good, and i don't think anyone can tell them apart.

    Here might be a good point to look at the way the implication was made originally. All it tells me though, is that you tend to sell good or very good cuts in your shop. Nothing more.

    customers are what put bread on my table. i would never pull the wool over their eyes. they can ask for what they wish, i am here to serve them. i am also here to help them choose, and to share my experience if they require it.

    Good for you, but do you use a sliding scale of charge in relation to your goods, is the cut-grade used openly to determine relative cost? Is it open to the consumer to take your specs and shop around with them? If you do you're absolutely on your own in the Irish jewellery business, that I know! Also, your future claim of this has no bearing on general reality, which, as we all know, involves having to *squeeze* cut information out of the manager of the average Irish jewellery shop. Wonder why.

    Customers put a lot more bread on your table on a per-sale basis than they do in either Antwerp or the USA. That much is unassailable fact. The influence of the internet and consumer awareness should force Irish jeweller margins into more reasonable territory. It should also open up buying criteria to include specific and excellent information for purchasing something as expensive as diamond jewellery.
    you should choose not to shop in a shop where you are getting that vibe.

    In that case I'll have to do my homework and head to Antwerp or the States, or play hardball with my local jeweller according to all the information I've gleaned about diamond pricing and relative cost.
    everything i have stated, i have been clear to draw a distinction between my opinion and fact. i have acknowledged your opinion, even though i disagree with it. you keep attacking my opinion, implying that i'm out to rip people off in some manner, or mislead them. it's very aggresive. i come on here to help people, and occassionally point out errors. had you initially stated an opinion that antiques diamonds are cut worse than modern stones, then fine, i'd have not bothered to reply. when you stated it as a fact, i though it appropriate to put the other side forward, but stating both facts and opinions, and distinguishing each.

    Ah, the poor jeweller. You decided to come after my personal-taste insistence on GIA Excellent cut in the stones I pay thousands for, and declare that higher cut grades are effectively pointless. Talking rubbish about reality in order to keep people ignorant is a crime, isn't it? Especially when you're making money out it. Here's what I originally had to say:
    With bottom lines at Ex cut (GIA/AGS/HRD labs), H, SI1 (from a trustworthy vendor who can give an opinion on eye-cleaness at 6-8 inches in different lights) and moving upwards with the size of the stone, most likely) -- but all personal preference.

    Why, there I am talking about personal taste! Why did you have to come after it so? Ah, that's right, you don't sell excellent cut stones, and you don't want consumers to come in demanding them. That would wreck the margin you make buying in very good and good cuts, as it would for every average Irish jeweller.
    i have no angle in coming on here. i have nothing to sell. i repeatedly decline to tell people where i work. i post only when i think i can help to clarify a point.

    Yes, but it's still a fact that general consumer ignorance makes fat-margin maintenance much easier!
    the GIA, in the creation of a cut grading system, state repeatedly that cut grading is subjective; that no one set of parameters is "ideal"; that the viewer should decide for themselves what they like and don't like. pagel-thiessen agrees. do you require better references than that? if you are very interested, i have a list of books you might like to read. PM me for it.

    Well thank you, but I'm fairly up on the saga of GIA cut-grade development. And no matter how much the experts vary in their interpretation, one thing is true -- jewellers still buy their stones at source according to cut grade and pay accordingly. Pity consumers in Ireland don't have that choice directly when purchasing, isn't it? Also, I'm well aware that it's specific relative proportions that make a diamond cut great, not specific angles.
    your arguement seems to centre around "excellent must be better, otherwise why is there a scale?", which is a valid question. had you simply asked that, i'd have been delighted to tell you. the answer is very interesting. but when you seem hellbent on attacking me and my opinion, i really can't be bothered to help you. the booklist i have will explain it all.

    I've been making recommendations for saving cash and criticising the entire jewellery-selling circus in Ireland. I didn't have any queries and have no problem admitting that a lesser cut stone can provide excellent overall results. What are you talking about!! :D My whole point and motivation is that Irish people pay good money for things in diamonds that they have no say in. I say educate yourself and look further afield and use your money specifically to buy (in most instances) a lot more of what you want: better cut, higher colour, higher clarity. Either that or use what you know to force the margins down in local jewellers. That's about it.
    have a nice weekend.

    I always have a nice weekend, even on a Friday ;) Good luck in your endeavours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭keyes


    Intothesea wrote: »
    It's immaterial in an internet discussion what occurs on the front page of any printed media. Suffice to say that the average reader has enough sense to notice the 100% overlap between the specs I compared and saved 3000 Euro with in the post above and your miracle find. It's enough to make a cattery laugh ;)

    LOL. why buy online when the same thing can be bought in a local bricks and mortar shop for less?
    Intothesea wrote: »


    This guy reckons he sells at half the cost of the average Irish jeweller. He's so confident in the relative cheapness of his wares that he's posting up a pricelist for everyone to see! His 1 carat I colour SI1 clarity solitaire in a white gold setting is running 7200 Euro -- what do you think he'd charge for an F, VS2, and in a thick platinum setting no less?
    .


    my bold type
    Intothesea wrote: »

    Well, the conclusion I mostly jump to is that the advertisement claim belongs to an Irish jeweller who's currently in an argument defending against the rip-off jewellery culture which exists in Ireland. 2 + 2 = ??! :D

    i've been suggesting people educate themselves and shop around.

    Intothesea wrote: »

    Not as much as cheaper foreign jewellers are, as evidenced by the way you tried to discredit Mr Good Old Gold by trying to make us believe that he thinks EGL USA and GIA to be on an absolute par! So distasteful this sly discrediting of foreign businesspeople, tut tut, and rampant all over this thread too, I might add.

    i invite people to read what he says.

    Intothesea wrote: »

    Here might be a good point to look at the way the implication was made originally. All it tells me though, is that you tend to sell good or very good cuts in your shop. Nothing more.

    jumping to conclusions again?
    Intothesea wrote: »

    Talking rubbish about reality in order to keep people ignorant is a crime, isn't it? Especially when you're making money out it. Here's what I originally had to say:.

    post reported.

    Intothesea wrote: »

    you don't sell excellent cut stones, and you don't want consumers to come in demanding them.

    you don't seem to read what i say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    keyes wrote: »
    LOL. why buy online when the same thing can be bought in a local bricks and mortar shop for less?

    LOL? How very composed hehe. Keep defending the rip-off culture there, work away. Also, I didn't have to buy online to save serious cash, I merely used basic information to deflate common 100% plus margins in Ireland. :)
    my italics.

    Well spotted, they're not mine ;)

    As for the reckons, a jeweller willing to reveal something of his pricing strategy on the net is obviously in a position to offer competitive pricing relative to the rest, that's what makes it such a great example.

    i've been suggesting people educate themselves and shop around.

    You've been suggesting to me, and by extension the rest of the internet, that foreign business people are inherently untrustworthy, and that something that influences the base-cost of diamonds at trade-level is somehow irrelevant for purely self-interested reasons during your conversation with me.

    post reported.

    Why, because it's such a masterpiece?! :D
    you don't seem to read what i say.

    Au contraire, I read exactly what you say, and what you imply. Report away, and while you're at it, tell the sea to stop rolling into the shore, it's wearing the rocks down to sand. LOL yourself!!! :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    When you start heading down the road of looking for a diamond engagement
    ring, how do you know where to look or what constitutes a good deal? Prices
    for apparently similar items may vary wildly from shop to shop, where is the
    base line in it all? Below I will outline a general approach, tips and tricks that
    will help you to meaningfully evaluate what you are being offered by
    jewellers. My interest in this is consumer education; I am in no way allied
    with any retail (or otherwise) jewellery outfit.


    General BackgroundThe 4 Cs

    The much-discussed 4 Cs refer to the Carat, Colour, Clarity and Cut of a
    diamond. Carat refers to the weight (not the size) of a stone. Colour
    describes the body-tint the stone might sport. This runs from D colour (the
    whitest), to Z, a deep yellow, brown or grey. Clarity indicates the density of
    inclusions or blemishes within the stone; and last but certainly not least, cut
    indicates the level of accuracy in the way the diamond facets have been
    formed by the diamond cutter. Cut grades generally are: excellent, very
    good, good and poor. More on this later.


    First things first: determining what you’d like

    Before getting into the detailed possibilities, the most important thing to
    know before you seriously set out is what suits your (or your girlfriend’s)
    hand. There’s no point in scoring a good deal if it doesn’t do what it’s
    supposed to: delight you both as a beautiful symbol.

    Head to any and all of your local jewelers, try styles on your hand to find
    out what carat range/colour appeals to you the most. Try on a selection of
    solitaires (single-stone rings), three stones (or more) and halo styles. Check
    to see if you prefer a lower or higher mounting, and in what metal or metal
    colour. Keep in mind that the more simple the setting, the easier it is to
    change its size and maintain later on. Keep a mental note of all details, along
    with the cost. This can be used in your analysis later on.


    Viewing Jewellery: how-to notes; gauging cut quality

    In the average jewelers the sales persons won’t know too much more about
    diamonds than the average shopper. For this reason, do the ‘trying on’ part
    with the advice of the sales person, but involve the shop-owner or qualified
    sales associate when getting the low-down on the statistics (i.e. as many of
    the 4 Cs as you can). Doing this as a couple invites extra sales pressure from
    staff, so be prepared! If they’re closing in very hard on you don’t be shy
    about stating “we think this is beautiful and really like it but we’ll have to go
    and figure out how we’d approach paying for it”. Hardly a lie, is it? ;) Leave
    with a smile, rinse and repeat. Information gathering is easier if one partner
    carries it out, plus it leaves the other partner free to walk in with a specific
    request and push for a discount that has been calculated beforehand!

    Another trick is to compare and contrast what different stones (of the same
    shape) look like in more natural lighting. Jewellers are usually fairly unhappy
    to do this, mostly because they’re worried that their precious cargo will
    disappear down a side-street, as you’d expect. If you can get the rings or
    stones as far as close to the window (i.e. away from spotlighting), you’ll
    probably notice that some stones look more ‘dead’ than others when
    under more diffuse natural light. This is a good way to weed out better
    ‘performers’ (i.e. stones with better cut typically) without any special tools
    or reports. Remember though that the winner is the best of the lot – and the
    whole lot mightn’t be such a great lot! :)


    Worked Example: How to analyze and influence the deal

    For the sake of example, let’s assume a hypothetical girlfriend prefers a
    ‘really white’ look, in the ‘as big as we can afford’ range or ‘0.5 carats
    minimum’, in a round shape and on a high white gold setting with four
    prongs holding the stone. An example would look like this wonderful link:

    Attachment not found.

    Weight and pricing: magic markups

    As your aim is to do well and squeeze out as much value for money as you
    can, the first thing to calculate is how far the size requirement is removed
    from the size ‘big hitters’ in the diamond consumer world. These sizes are 0.5
    carats, 1 carat, 1.5 carat, 2.0 carats, 2.5 carats, and so on. In short, prices
    mysteriously ‘jump’ at these marks – this is because consumers love to
    achieve these particular weights. When asked about the size of a ring, it’s
    nicer to deliver a “1 carat” rather than “0.93” carat – that doesn’t sound
    quite as impressive does it! The answer to this is to add the word “almost”
    to the answer – and everyone is happy :) Jewellers who sell uncertified
    diamonds can make the most of this price-jump expectation by selling you a
    supposed 0.5 carat stone that could be just a little less in reality (i.e. 0.47
    carat) – you almost get what you think you’re paying for and your jeweller
    cashes in on the discrepancy!

    More to come...


This discussion has been closed.
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