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Dublin Fire service recruitment? Anyone know??
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Arruabarrena wrote: »The 66 is Firefighters plus ESCOs. They want it all internally, i.e no public comp at all. Meetings ongoing so could change.
Cheers for update Arruabarrena.0 -
I'm just curious to hear people's opinions on the pros and cons of internal v external recruitment?0
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Why are you so curious Fr ??????0
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Personally I'm not a big fan of internal recruitment.I don't think a person who just fancied a change of job will have the same passion and motivation as a person who has always wanted the job.I'm just curious to hear other opinions which might change my thinking on it.reddington wrote: »Why are you so curious Fr ??????0 -
I believe this is to be advertised internally next week. The 8 remaining people on the internal FF panel will be taken from the panel as far as I'm aware.0
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So they're going for all 66 internally?0
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I believe so0
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Didn't expect the unions to agree to that. interesting to see how things are unfolding.0
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Didn't expect the unions to agree to that. interesting to see how things are unfolding.
They haven't.
The unions have no problem with the internal recruitment per se. They just don't believe that it will achieve the adequate numbers required. DFB is seriously understaffed at present despite DCC management constantly being told over the last 5 years by the staff reps that a crisis was looming.
Senior management agreed last month to externally recruit. However when the Chief Executive was told of this he immediately forced his senior management team to renage on the deal they had just signed off on with unions. He insisted on only using internal recruitment.
He was informed by his managers that this was a flawed process and that an external competition needed to be run alongside the internal so as to avoid undue delays. He again rejected this against advice.
The bottom line is that the City manager is determind to run DFB into the ground and he doesn't want to recruit anyone. Recruiting is not on his agenda and he is again using this as a delaying tactic.
He wants manning cuts in DFB.......end of.
So, whats happening now. The unions want him to run both competitions at the same time in order to ensure we get our numbers back up to safe manning levels. Day in, day out DFB is running below safe manning levels despite trying to fill the gaps with overtime. He is refusing point blank. At the moment ballots are being cast for industrial action.0 -
They haven't.
The unions have no problem with the internal recruitment per se. They just don't believe that it will achieve the adequate numbers required. DFB is seriously understaffed at present despite DCC management constantly being told over the last 5 years by the staff reps that a crisis was looming.
Senior management agreed last month to externally recruit. However when the Chief Executive was told of this he immediately forced his senior management team to renage on the deal they had just signed off on with unions. He insisted on only using internal recruitment.
He was informed by his managers that this was a flawed process and that an external competition needed to be run alongside the internal so as to avoid undue delays. He again rejected this against advice.
The bottom line is that the City manager is determind to run DFB into the ground and he doesn't want to recruit anyone. Recruiting is not on his agenda and he is again using this as a delaying tactic.
He wants manning cuts in DFB.......end of.
So, whats happening now. The unions want him to run both competitions at the same time in order to ensure we get our numbers back up to safe manning levels. Day in, day out DFB is running below safe manning levels despite trying to fill the gaps with overtime. He is refusing point blank. At the moment ballots are being cast for industrial action.
Why don't you support the 28 ESCOs? They have already gone through the process of becoming firefighters and they had been promised by DFB management that they were the next firefighters to be trained up but that is being reneged on. These people have helped prevent the control room from being civilianised by taking up these positions and all for a basic pay of little more than the minimum wage, but most of you have turned your back on them.0 -
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Why don't you support the 28 ESCOs? They have already gone through the process of becoming firefighters and they had been promised by DFB management that they were the next firefighters to be trained up but that is being reneged on. These people have helped prevent the control room from being civilianised by taking up these positions and all for a basic pay of little more than the minimum wage, but most of you have turned your back on them.
I'll excuse the ignorance shown in this post and put it down to someone being misinformed rather than having an axe to grind.
No one has "turned their back" on anyone despite what you seem to think. The ESC's joined with the intention of being FF trained after 3 years. None of them are 3 years in the job.
The ESC appointments also never precluded DFB from recruiting directly again. It was never the only route into the job. Ideally, yes with a proper staff management strategy (which we don't have) this would have been the ideal way to operate.
Also, for your information (so you have an accurate understanding of course) part of the external recruitment which was agreed and then reneged on included the provision for the first 10 Esc's to be part of the 2nd FF recruit class in 2016.
To say that the ESC's have been abandoned is complete misinformation and nonsense.0 -
These people have helped prevent the control room from being civilianised by taking up these positions and all for a basic pay of little more than the minimum wage, but most of you have turned your back on them.
To be fair DCC planned to fully civilianise these jobs. Only for the unions managing to negotiate the deal to bring in the ESC's and maintain their connection to the brigade as uniformed members of DFB they would be sitting in the ERCC as civilians for ever more i.e. no progression to Firefighter.
So I think you've got it arse about face0 -
To be fair DCC planned to fully civilianise these jobs. Only for the unions managing to negotiate the deal to bring in the ESC's and maintain their connection to the brigade as uniformed members of DFB they would be sitting in the ERCC as civilians for ever more i.e. no progression to Firefighter.
So I think you've got it arse about face
I must have touched a nerve here. First of all I have a lot of friends and acquaintances in the DFB who I have the utmost respect for. They are the type of ordinary people who go in and do their jobs diligently and respectfully. So I have no axe to grind with DFB and have nothing but admiration for that organisation. So I have had my finger on the pulse of the DFB for far longer then you I suspect have been in the job so don't accuse me of submitting ignorance posts.
The ESCOs have 3 year contracts that is correct but it was always on the understanding that they would be next to be trained. Your senior managers told them that when then they passed out in the OBI. Nobody expected them to complete the 3 years. Nobody. When the section committee was asked to support the ESCOs they were told to F.O. or words to that effect.
When the ESCO positions were first advertised it was deemed to be only way into the DFB going forward because if it hadn't been, not one of the current ESCOs would have taken up the positions, in my humble opinion. So they would not have been sitting there forever as ESCOs. Oh and the reason I know so much about the ESCOs is because I know two of them quite well. Would that be informed enough to have an opinion?
You know what, you are right I do have an axe to grind. I hate seeing people being treated unfairly.
So to summarise for you: I have the height of respect for DFB. By and large the men/women of DFB do an outstanding job for the citizens of this city and county but I think this time you have got it wrong by disregarding the ESCOs. Try walking in their shoes.
You will have noticed I did not insult you in responding to your post.0 -
I'm glad you have your "finger on the pulse" and reckon you have extensive insider knowledge of DFB. That doesn't make it accurate. I have no idea why you have made a dig at my perceived length of service which cannot be apparent from any of my posts. My length of service is irrellevant to this debate. I am not however wet behind the ears.
The facts are simple despite what people think they may or may not have been told at a passing out. Funnily enough nice words from a manager at a passout does not constitute part of your terms and conditions.
Facts:
Esc's were employed to a uniform position in DFB in the ERCC.
ESC's were to train as FF's after 3 years
The position of ESC was never the only route into DFB ( i know this as i asked the exact same question before we ever agreed to the deal in the first place)
No ESC is more than 3 years in the job.
The ESC's you know who claim to have said they would never have joined if they thought other recruits would be taken on would now have no chance of joining DFB as it seems internal comps are the only route in. They are in a much better position than any guy on the street who wishes to join DFB. They should think about this. Sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees
How exactly do you think they are being treated unfairly? Just because someone whinges doesn't mean they have a valid whinge.
The section that told them to F.O are the people who ensured that there was even a position there for them to take up in the first place
Disclaimer:
You will also notice I have not insulted you in my post0 -
I'm glad you have your "finger on the pulse" and reckon you have extensive insider knowledge of DFB. That doesn't make it accurate. I have no idea why you have made a dig at my perceived length of service which cannot be apparent from any of my posts. My length of service is irrellevant to this debate. I am not however wet behind the ears.
The facts are simple despite what people think they may or may not have been told at a passing out. Funnily enough nice words from a manager at a passout does not constitute part of your terms and conditions.
Facts:
Esc's were employed to a uniform position in DFB in the ERCC.
ESC's were to train as FF's after 3 years
The position of ESC was never the only route into DFB ( i know this as i asked the exact same question before we ever agreed to the deal in the first place)
No ESC is more than 3 years in the job.
The ESC's you know who claim to have said they would never have joined if they thought other recruits would be taken on would now have no chance of joining DFB as it seems internal comps are the only route in. They are in a much better position than any guy on the street who wishes to join DFB. They should think about this. Sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees
How exactly do you think they are being treated unfairly? Just because someone whinges doesn't mean they have a valid whinge.
The section that told them to F.O are the people who ensured that there was even a position there for them to take up in the first place
Disclaimer:
You will also notice I have not insulted you in my post
Let me make one thing quite clear to you. I did not , and had no need to, make a dig at your length of service, I was actually referring to myself and not you. If you thought I offended you then I apologise.
Anyway, when your rep told you that the ESCO was not only route into the job naturally you believed him. I was told the opposite by friends of mine. The ESCO was the only route in they said. I have learned over the years, sometimes the hard way, that a lot of union reps are only in it for themselves. They generally will sell a deal whatever way they can.
The lads I know are not whinging, they are disappointed at both what is happening to them and the disregard the union has for them.
If 66 firefighters are recruited from where ever, what happens to the ESCOs? Some have 18 months done, some have 12 and before the first class actually happens it will be 24 and 18 respectively. So before they know it 3 years will be done. There might not be a need for any more firefighters then because as you have rightly said the city manager appears to have a plan to decimate the DFB maybe even down to purely to purely firefighting duties.
So the ESCOs have completed 3 years in the control room but there is no need to train them as there are too many firefighters in the Brigade What do they do then? Stay in the control room?
As regards to the senior management making statements in a public arena, I cannot be certain, but I would imagine that a court would take a different view to you.
For the record a lot of your own colleagues have advised them not to accept this and take legal advice. They would rather not do that for obvious reasons.
When these people took these jobs most of them were of the opinion that they would never have to do 3 years because of the shortage of firefighters and like i said that the ESCO was apparently the only way in to DFB.
Again try walking in their shoes and imagine how you would feel if it was happening to you.
Actually I am the one whinging because I hate when people are treated unfairly no matter who they are.0 -
Let me make one thing quite clear to you. I did not , and had no need to, make a dig at your length of service, I was actually referring to myself and not you. If you thought I offended you then I apologise.
Anyway, when your rep told you that the ESCO was not only route into the job naturally you believed him. I was told the opposite by friends of mine. The ESCO was the only route in they said. I have learned over the years, sometimes the hard way, that a lot of union reps are only in it for themselves. They generally will sell a deal whatever way they can.
The lads I know are not whinging, they are disappointed at both what is happening to them and the disregard the union has for them.
If 66 firefighters are recruited from where ever, what happens to the ESCOs? Some have 18 months done, some have 12 and before the first class actually happens it will be 24 and 18 respectively. So before they know it 3 years will be done. There might not be a need for any more firefighters then because as you have rightly said the city manager appears to have a plan to decimate the DFB maybe even down to purely to purely firefighting duties.
So the ESCOs have completed 3 years in the control room but there is no need to train them as there are too many firefighters in the Brigade What do they do then? Stay in the control room?
As regards to the senior management making statements in a public arena, I cannot be certain, but I would imagine that a court would take a different view to you.
For the record a lot of your own colleagues have advised them not to accept this and take legal advice. They would rather not do that for obvious reasons.
When these people took these jobs most of them were of the opinion that they would never have to do 3 years because of the shortage of firefighters and like i said that the ESCO was apparently the only way in to DFB.
Again try walking in their shoes and imagine how you would feel if it was happening to you.
Actually I am the one whinging because I hate when people are treated unfairly no matter who they are.
I wasn't told by my rep that this was the only way in. It was a question that was answered at a public, minuted meeting. I am not and have never been a union rep but still find it offensive that you constantly insult our section committee who quite frankly have done a fantastic job in holding back the tide over the last few tough years.
I'll repeat again..........the facts are that no ESC has at present had anything done that is against the contract they signed up to. In 2 or 3 years that could be different....but that's in the future and we need to deal with the facts as they stand.
In your previous post you use the words " apparently", "of the opinion" along with many ifs, buts and maybes. At present these are irrelevant. They are not facts.
I personally believe that the ESC's are uniformed members of DFB doing a slightly different but just as important job as any other member of the organisation. They deserve to be trained as FF's within the time period that was originally laid down and before that should treated as the valued members of the organisation that they are.
What they don't deserve is to feel hard done by when in fact their terms and conditions have yet to be broken or altered.
I'd much rather be in their position than someone outside hoping that there will be an external recruitment.0 -
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You just don't get it do you? You really just don't get it.
If the ESCOs are expected to fulfill this 3 year contract: why did DFB management make them undergo the firefighter fitness tests in the OBI prior to taking up the positions instead of waiting until the 3 years were up?
The logical answer to that question is that they were never expected to complete the 3 years as ESCOs.
And yes you are correct they have contracts that specify 3 years in the control room but, contracts and agreements are drawn up with a specific spirit attached to them.
You may have attended a minuted meeting and been told otherwise but there are an awful lot of officers and firefighters who did and continue to see it differently to you.
I have never once said that the ESCOs are being treated unfairly on their shift duties, as a matter of fact they are being treated extremely well and inclusively by the officers and firefighters in Townsend Street. They have absolutely no complaints whatsoever.
It baffles me why you are so against the ESCOs becoming firefighters earlier than 3 years. Have they not gone through the same process as you? What difference does it make to you or anybody else when they become firefighters?
As for the section committee I have never insulted them, I just repeated their response to the ESCOs. Actually to be fair two lads supported them.
For the record: I have never insulted you or Dublin Fire Brigade but for your part your responses have contained accusations and insults aimed towards me. You also accused the ESCOs of whinging.
I won't be responding to any more of your posts because I believe it is pointless. So you can continue to insult me or whatever but for my part I have no further interest in engaging with you.
Best of luck in your career and stay safe.0 -
Thanks be to God ,,,,! You pair are doing my head in your like two children going back and forth this is a place for constructive information and supporting each other at the end of the day we all need to stand shoulder to shoulder , all services no matter what position we hold , it's bad enough management tearing you all apart but let's not start falling out with each other because at the moment thats all you have and you must never lose sight of that , I am over 21 years trying to become a member of DFB and this was my last oppertuinty and I have just watched it disappear I am gutted but there is Notting I can do , at least you two are in a service , and as for the controllers they can apply internally and I am sure will do very well either way , now call a truces and let's get back to helping the people who need it , its guys like you two that gives the rest of us hope in trying to achieve are goals and get into a service and I am sure that I speak for everyone here like me when I say we all appreciate your help cheers guys .0
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I agree with Reddington. I think the ESCO's are in a strong position here. Paulzx do you see any possibility of it being advertised externally?0
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You just don't get it do you? You really just don't get it.
If the ESCOs are expected to fulfill this 3 year contract: why did DFB management make them undergo the firefighter fitness tests in the OBI prior to taking up the positions instead of waiting until the 3 years were up?
The logical answer to that question is that they were never expected to complete the 3 years as ESCOs.
And yes you are correct they have contracts that specify 3 years in the control room but, contracts and agreements are drawn up with a specific spirit attached to them.
You may have attended a minuted meeting and been told otherwise but there are an awful lot of officers and firefighters who did and continue to see it differently to you.
I have never once said that the ESCOs are being treated unfairly on their shift duties, as a matter of fact they are being treated extremely well and inclusively by the officers and firefighters in Townsend Street. They have absolutely no complaints whatsoever.
It baffles me why you are so against the ESCOs becoming firefighters earlier than 3 years. Have they not gone through the same process as you? What difference does it make to you or anybody else when they become firefighters?
As for the section committee I have never insulted them, I just repeated their response to the ESCOs. Actually to be fair two lads supported them.
For the record: I have never insulted you or Dublin Fire Brigade but for your part your responses have contained accusations and insults aimed towards me. You also accused the ESCOs of whinging.
I won't be responding to any more of your posts because I believe it is pointless. So you can continue to insult me or whatever but for my part I have no further interest in engaging with you.
Best of luck in your career and stay safe.
You know what?.........I had a detailed reply but there's no point. You've again attributed things to me that i have not said........so I'll leave it alone.0 -
I agree with Reddington. I think the ESCO's are in a strong position here. Paulzx do you see any possibility of it being advertised externally?
Everything is up in the air. It was brought to the Labour court (again!!) this week.
Looking at it in a black and white way the solution is simple. We are seriously understaffed and cannot meet our daily manning levels. Recruit now.
However, DCC wish to completey downgrade the service provision and the manning level required to achieve this. Stalling any type of recruitment is helpfull to those that subscribe to this opinion. Under their vision for the future the optimum staffing levels would seriously drop ( despite no risk assesments or anlysis having taken place ). The safety of the public we serve and firefighters will be compromised. It is an idealogical viewpoint that counts nothing but the euro cost of a service that will never make money. The whole concept of giving the public a fit for purpose and safe service is alien.
The correct way to proceed is to accept we need staff urgently. Plan a combination of internal, external and ESC progression to get this.
Having external recruit classes back training every year like previously will actually benifet the existing ESC's as they will be tagged onto them with a constant turnover. This doesn't seem to be obvious to some.
Either way this situation has reached a critical point and a row is brewing.0 -
Were first time users of Boards guys. Alot of good information going around this group guys. The situation on the recruitment is quite precarious with City Manager and DFB however one thing is for certain - Promotions have been advertised so Officer ranks will be filled over the coming months which will leave a major gap in firefighter numbers. Whatever you hear could change extremely quickly so think about getting some training and preparing your CV well in advance to be ready for when its advertised. We are running an educational camp to help with this in August if you know anyone interested.0
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reddington wrote: »Where will this be taking place in August
22nd & 23rd in carlton hotel Dublin Airport. We have a Facebook page at fire service recruitment ready for details and updates0 -
Fire Service Ready wrote: »22nd & 23rd in carlton hotel Dublin Airport. We have a Facebook page at fire service recruitment ready for details and updates
I don't mean to shoot you down, but we had this crack with the Garda. Waste of time, best advise I can give anyone. Get good at aptitude tests there all that matter in joining any type of ES.
I also e-mailed my local TD on the 4 CC's deciding that its okay to hire internally for FF roles in DFB.
Also I will voice my concern that it looks like an attempt to downgrade the good work DFB do in running the ambulance service along side the fire service. I for one think that having two services IE HSE and DFB, responding to an incident with in Dublin will cause serious issues. The current system works well. If there's no ambulance available in Dublin a fire appliance will be dispatched. But what happens in a situation, where no HSE ambulance is available for the Dublin area and we have downgraded our fire service so they are not trained paramedics. This is just removing the mesh and backup.
I know someone will quote England, these guys are years ahead of us, in fact they would be so far advanced there would be backups for backups if the ambulances and fire service where attending incidents.0 -
I for one think that having two services IE HSE and DFB, responding to an incident with in Dublin will cause serious issues .
This already happens all over dublin and has always been the case both services work well together it causes no issues
Before it starts by the way I believe DFB should keep the ambulances and keep training paramedics all that should remain as is but the one central dispatch for all ambulances is a good idea nearest resources are then sent no matter the badge on the door or even a mixture of badges on the door it don't matter as long as the are dispatched.
The them and us sh1t needs to stop all paramedics and advanced paramedics in both services are fantastic and it makes no odds who arrives as long as the do0 -
Hey TallGlass thanks for the feedback and I can understand that you my have been let down before particularly with the Garda one as mentioned. Also id like to thank Reddington for your comments too.
As a new entity it can be difficult for people to totally get what your about so this is it!! We actually want to help the people who are actually interested to get into the service. I know you said you looked at the website and its not for you but don't let a free website/platform cloud your judgement. The course outline has been specifically designed to provide you with the qualifications similar to what would be expected from a new recruit. If lucky enough to get to interview these qualifications will not only gain you additional points but also tell the interviewers that your serious about the getting the job.
With regard to the aptitude/CV/Interview skills part of our course, Paul from Test preparations.ie is actually delivering this module for us and Paul and I have spoken in detail about how his course and our course will actually work in tandem due to the fact that they are different stages of the process.
Simply put if you don't pass the Aptitude test your gone. If you do pass and don't have anything further to offer your gone. This is where both our services are going to give you the best chances of success.
We have the best and most qualified instructors on this program and I guarantee you wont be disappointed.0 -
When should we find out whether this is going to be internal or external recruitment? Or is it gonna keep dragging on and on?0
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When should we find out whether this is going to be internal or external recruitment? Or is it gonna keep dragging on and on?
Its definitely at a stall right now. Agreement was there for external recruitment by all stakeholders but one individual blocked it for now. Situation is firefighter numbers was under quota and DO promotions now advertised which will have a knock on effect all the way through the ranks. This will lead to further numbers in fire fighters. In our opinion it's only matter of time before recruitment needs to be done and we believe when the decision is made the whole process will happen quickly, so now is the time to get prepared.
Hope this helps.0 -
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Was slated for internal advertisement on Thursday.
I was led to believe the first group of ESCOs plus 8 remaining on FF panel would be first class.0
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