M40 motorway redesignation and demand management system [works ongoing]

marno21 · 05-01-2018 5:50pm #1

TII's budget allocations for 2018 are out, and include €75,000 towards the redesignation of the N40 South Ring Road as a motorway.

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/reports-accounts/tii-allocations-2018/2018NAT_CorkCoCo.pdf

This is part of a planned Demand Management System geared at improving capacity along the route

Chris_5339762 · 05-01-2018 6:52pm

This one will be interesting. Presumably M28 west? Even with those weird junctions at Douglas? Delighted this will happen, but intriguing now that they are sticking M's on the N40, whether chunks of the N25 and N22 (at 120kmh already) will get blues.

marno21 · 05-01-2018 6:55pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

This one will be interesting. Presumably M28 west? Even with those weird junctions at Douglas? Delighted this will happen, but intriguing now that they are sticking M's on the N40, whether chunks of the N25 and N22 (at 120kmh already) will get blues.

I had the same though with the N22. Surely they won't have a 120km/h all purpose DC running into a 100km/h motorway.

I think the whole N40 will become M with Dunkettle getting upgraded

Chris_5339762 · 05-01-2018 7:16pm

Its possible, I guess, with whats there at the moment. No local access anywhere. Some of the junctions leave a lot to be desired (Douglas) but I can see no reason why it can't. There are no inescapable junctions to cause problems (like the Kilkenny link road did with the M9)

AugustusMinimus · 05-01-2018 7:27pm

Good. I think this lends credence that the NRR might be on the drawing board.

marno21 · 05-01-2018 7:29pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Good. I think this lends credence that the NRR might be on the drawing board.

It appears to be reactivated also.

marno21 · 07-01-2018 4:04am

One other item, there was discussion on the N28 thread about requiring the new M28 to be all purpose between the R610 and the N40 due to the lack of alternative access from Douglas to the N40.

If the N40 in its entirety is to be motorway reclassified this requirement is no longer relevant - and in fact it raises another issue, that the N28 from the R610 to the M40 will have to be motorway, upgrade or no upgrade. There's a second issue in that traffic coming from Carrigaline over Carrs Hill cannot exit the N28 south of the existing Carrs Hill interchange.

So regardless of whether the N28 upgrade gets rejected or not, the N28 between Carrs Hill and the M40 would have to be motorway classified.

Funny that when you hear all the anti-motorway guff and the spiel that a "dual carriageway" would be fine. Even if the M28 doesn't get approved you'll have an basically an elongated motorway sliproad down Carrs Hill that would be an "M28".

kub · 07-01-2018 10:48am

I am all for the M28, just to rule that thought out while I ask this question but what is the logical decision in making the N40, the M40?
Is it just to stop tractors and cyclists from using it?
I cannot imagine that the speed limit can be increased to the usual 120 km.

AugustusMinimus · 07-01-2018 10:55am

kub wrote: »

I am all for the M28, just to rule that thought out while I ask this question but what is the logical decision in making the N40, the M40?
Is it just to stop tractors and cyclists from using it?
I cannot imagine that the speed limit can be increased to the usual 120 km.

The same question can be asked, why is the M50 not the N50.

Tractors and cyclists cause havoc on the N40 and are the primary cause of rolling traffic jams.

Chris_5339762 · 07-01-2018 10:59am

Tractors and cyclists, also to stop inappropriate development. In theory you can apply for planning permission for direct access for a house onto the N40 as it stands. The various groups can complain all they like but the county council could theoretically approve it.

With a motorway, its not possible legally. All roads that could be reclassified a motorway, IMO should be.

Speed limit will likely remain 100kmh like most of the M50. I can't imagine 120kmh being put anywhere along it TBH.

AugustusMinimus · 07-01-2018 11:02am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Tractors and cyclists, also to stop inappropriate development. In theory you can apply for planning permission for direct access for a house onto the N40 as it stands. The various groups can complain all they like but the county council could theoretically approve it.

With a motorway, its not possible legally. All roads that could be reclassified a motorway, IMO should be.

Speed limit will likely remain 100kmh like most of the M50. I can't imagine 120kmh being put anywhere along it TBH.

Part of the current N40 has a 120kph limit between junctions 1 and 2. This would likely be maintained.

Carawaystick · 09-01-2018 11:37pm

How will access to Vernon Mount be provided?

kub · 09-01-2018 11:47pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

How will access to Vernon Mount be provided?

That junction is within the lower speed limit area isn't it ?

marno21 · 09-01-2018 11:57pm

Perhaps TII burned it down last year to ensure it's not an issue?

Chris_5339762 · 10-01-2018 9:36am

Vernon mount is on the slip road to the Kinsale Road roundabout. Just stick the "End of motorway" sign where the entrance to Vernon Mount comes off the sliproad. Done!

AugustusMinimus · 10-01-2018 9:41am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Vernon mount is on the slip road to the Kinsale Road roundabout. Just stick the "End of motorway" sign where the entrance to Vernon Mount comes off the sliproad. Done!

Still, it would mean that Vernon Mount is only accessible by Motorway which is a big problem.

Where was the entrance to Vernon Mount before the SRR was built? On the old Kinsale Road?

spacetweek · 11-01-2018 12:32am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Tractors and cyclists cause havoc on the N40 and are the primary cause of rolling traffic jams.

What?! Highly doubtful, can you justify this claim?

kub · 11-01-2018 12:42am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Still, it would mean that Vernon Mount is only accessible by Motorway which is a big problem.

Where was the entrance to Vernon Mount before the SRR was built? On the old Kinsale Road?

You are bringing me back now, I remember, old enough to do that and young enough not to

.

As you pass the old dump on the South Link, there is another road to the left, a narrow one with a bad surface, with a caravan at the end of it ?

Well that used to be the road that you took to get to Vernon Mount, that road went across the Link Road and across what is now the Park & Ride car park and onto the Kinsale Road, breaking out approx opposite the Centra shop.

marno21 · 11-01-2018 1:41am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Still, it would mean that Vernon Mount is only accessible by Motorway which is a big problem.

Where was the entrance to Vernon Mount before the SRR was built? On the old Kinsale Road?

kub wrote: »

You are bringing me back now, I remember, old enough to do that and young enough not to .

As you pass the old dump on the South Link, there is another road to the left, a narrow one with a bad surface, with a caravan at the end of it ?

Well that used to be the road that you took to get to Vernon Mount, that road went across the Link Road and across what is now the Park & Ride car park and onto the Kinsale Road, breaking out approx opposite the Centra shop.

The old road for getting to Vernon Mount is visible on Google Satellite view, you can see where the old route ran parallel to what is now the N40 and it's severed just east of the Kinsale Road Roundabout. The road out of Vernon Mount was realigned along the westbound carriageway to terminate on the westbound J6 offramp.

There is a housing estate close enough to the Vernon Mount access road where a gated entrance could be put. Does Vernon Mount generate much traffic? The existing entrance is fairly useless as well

spacetweek wrote: »

What?! Highly doubtful, can you justify this claim?

I can't prove it but I can back it up. I've met tractors on the N40 and they cause havoc due to traffic having to slow from 100/120km/h down to 20-30km/h in heavy flow.

Cyclists I haven't encountered but there was a cyclist killed on the N40/N22 dual carriageway (120km/h) section last year cycling across an off ramp in difficult visibility conditions. When it was built with the at grade roundabouts and traffic calming was one thing but the 2018 N40 is no place for anything other than motorised vehicular traffic. It's far too dangerous and busy for cyclists, pedestrians and agri vehicles

al2009 · 11-01-2018 11:14pm

JCB heading ballincollig direction at 5.20pm today caused havoc from bloomfield interchange to kinsale road slip, long queues behind him, oblivious.

AugustusMinimus · 11-01-2018 11:34pm

al2009 wrote: »

JCB heading ballincollig direction at 5.20pm today caused havoc from bloomfield interchange to kinsale road slip, long queues behind him, oblivious.

Constantly happening. Traffic is so heavy, cars stuck behind simply can’t pull out. Very dangerous.

kub · 12-01-2018 12:45am

marno21 wrote: »

The old road for getting to Vernon Mount is visible on Google Satellite view, you can see where the old route ran parallel to what is now the N40 and it's severed just east of the Kinsale Road Roundabout. The road out of Vernon Mount was realigned along the westbound carriageway to terminate on the westbound J6 offramp.

Well spotted Marno, i don't remember the borreens being as straight as those white lines

kub · 17-02-2018 9:18pm

Some 'News' in the Evening Echo

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Corks-South-Ring-Road-is-20-over-capacity-d84a218f-f93a-4922-b210-ee8355a04049-ds

AugustusMinimus · 17-02-2018 9:22pm

kub wrote: »

Some 'News' in the Evening Echo

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Corks-South-Ring-Road-is-20-over-capacity-d84a218f-f93a-4922-b210-ee8355a04049-ds

Nothing that we don’t already know but good to see politicians pushing for the NRR.

Truckermal · 18-02-2018 1:49pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Constantly happening. Traffic is so heavy, cars stuck behind simply can’t pull out. Very dangerous.

A Teleporter heading towards the Tunnel Wednesday morning at 7am around Togher in the middle lane!

Aontachtoir · 18-02-2018 10:48pm

Has there been any update on when we can expect to see the blue signs go up?

EnzoScifo · 18-02-2018 10:53pm

ASAP... Almost hit a cyclist wearing dark clothes and riding his bike on the N40 just after the Togher exit heading east on a rainy Friday evening. No hard shoulder there and he was wearing his earphones. Absolute death wish.

AugustusMinimus · 19-02-2018 1:45am

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Has there been any update on when we can expect to see the blue signs go up?

Don’t think there’s been anything more than a note showing funding.

Does anyone know how long it takes for a redesignation. This road badly needs it.

marno21 · 19-02-2018 1:47am

It should be in late 2018/early 2019. I'd imagine there will be a public consultation during which the anti-motorway fruitcake wagon will be out in their droves.

AugustusMinimus · 19-02-2018 1:56am

marno21 wrote: »

It should be in late 2018/early 2019. I'd imagine there will be a public consultation during which the anti-motorway fruitcake wagon will be out in their droves.

They’ll find it difficult to find reasons to object if TII want to push this through.

I think that this move is reactionary by TII with Cork City and County Councils looking for additional access to the SRR. Most recently with additional junctions at Mahon.

marno21 · 19-02-2018 2:02am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

They’ll find it difficult to find reasons to object if TII want to push this through.

I think that this move is reactionary by TII with Cork City and County Councils looking for additional access to the SRR. Most recently with additional junctions at Mahon.

TII will push this through alright, they are fully entitled to. It's the objections that will delay it though.

Any objections to this will show how baseless the objections actually are. This isn't going to affect anyone outside the N40 mainline in any way except for learner drivers, cyclists and pedestrians which really shouldn't be there in the first place.

Having cyclists cycling across offramps and onramps on the 120km/h N22 Balincollig bypass is lunacy when there should be sufficient cycling facilities on the R608 through Ballincollig. There is no need whatsoever to be on the (hopefully soon to be M22) N22.

AugustusMinimus · 19-02-2018 2:10am

marno21 wrote: »

TII will push this through alright, they are fully entitled to. It's the objections that will delay it though.

Any objections to this will show how baseless the objections actually are. This isn't going to affect anyone outside the N40 mainline in any way except for learner drivers, cyclists and pedestrians which really shouldn't be there in the first place.

Having cyclists cycling across offramps and onramps on the 120km/h N22 Balincollig bypass is lunacy when there should be sufficient cycling facilities on the R608 through Ballincollig. There is no need whatsoever to be on the (hopefully soon to be M22) N22.

There was a cyclist death on the Ballincollig bypass last year. The cyclist was crossing over an exit and was collided with by a jeep. These roads are too dangerous for cyclists.

Aontachtoir · 19-02-2018 2:57am

marno21 wrote: »

It should be in late 2018/early 2019. I'd imagine there will be a public consultation during which the anti-motorway fruitcake wagon will be out in their droves.

I don't foresee the type of inflammatory organised resistance we're seeing to the M28. The N40 is long-built, known to be far over-capacity, and every commuter on the road would be delighted to see bicycles, tractors, and slow traffic banned. Moreover, although it would seem like a bad idea to put an additional Mahon exit somewhere in the kilometre between junction 10 and the tunnel, as I believe has been called for recently, motorway designation would not legally prohibit that. Common sense would, of course.

You also mentioned above that the N22 may also be in line for motorway restrictions - is there anything specific to go on regarding this?

JupiterKid · 19-02-2018 3:45am

I fully understand the rationale for making the existing N40 Cork SRR a motorway but given the substandard junctions at Douglas, could a case not be made for the road to instead be designated an “expressway” with restrictions on certain road users (ie tractors, scooters, bicycles, pedestrians, animals etc)?

It seems that we in Ireland are very very keen on making nearly every stretch of grade separated DC into a motorway - pretty much the opposite to the case with Britain.

Thoughts?

Aontachtoir · 19-02-2018 4:00am

JupiterKid wrote: »

I fully understand the rationale for making the existing N40 Cork SRR a motorway but given the substandard junctions at Douglas, could a case not be made for the road to instead be designated an “expressway” with restrictions on certain road users (ie tractors, scooters, bicycles, pedestrians, animals etc)?

It seems that we in Ireland are very very keen on making nearly every stretch of grade separated DC into a motorway - pretty much the opposite to the case with Britain.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure what the distinction between the expressway designation you describe and motorway designation. The N40 scrapes in at motorway standard, because there are divided lanes of traffic, no at-grade junctions, and at least two lanes in each direction. I agree that the low quality Douglas overpass isn't ideal but I don't see why it should prevent motorway restrictions being applied. Would your expressway designation prevent development directly onto the N40? That to me seems another good reason to go for motorway status.

Plus, I like the blue signs.

spacetweek · 19-02-2018 10:26pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

It seems that we in Ireland are very very keen on making nearly every stretch of grade separated DC into a motorway - pretty much the opposite to the case with Britain.

Thoughts?

We're doing it the right way

SeanW · 20-02-2018 9:36pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I'm not sure what the distinction between the expressway designation you describe and motorway designation. The N40 scrapes in at motorway standard, because there are divided lanes of traffic, no at-grade junctions, and at least two lanes in each direction. I agree that the low quality Douglas overpass isn't ideal but I don't see why it should prevent motorway restrictions being applied. Would your expressway designation prevent development directly onto the N40? That to me seems another good reason to go for motorway status.

Plus, I like the blue signs.

The term Expressway has different meanings in different jurisdictions. For example if you're driving in the Northeastern United States, you might see the term Expressway used in contrast to Parkway. There, a "Parkway" was part of the car mania of the mid-20th century. Controlled access but of poor engineering spec, Parkways were (and still are) roads roughly equivalent to a bad quality dual carriageway but specifically excluding buses and trucks, which with low bridges etc they cannot handle. You can often see signs in and around New York City - "Trucks, use Expressways, not Parkways". As you can imagine, New York has plenty of both. The US Expressway is roughly equivalent to the Irish Motorway, maybe some like HQDCs.

I suspect however that the poster is referring to the term as used in the United Kingdom. There, the term Expressway is used to describe a road that has many features of a Motorway, but usually has no hard shoulders. As such, an Expressway has green signs. You don't see development along UK Expressways, either because they are protected by law explicitly or because councils/developers/homebuilders are not idiotic enough to even try.

I'm actually not a huge fan of UK Expressways because they have no hard shoulder and - so far as my knowledge extends - no restrictions on tractors, cyclists etc but are nevertheless intended for full speed driving. However, I can see the value of creating an Expressway designation in Ireland. If the idea of making a road an Irish Expressway is to make it legally off-limits to development access, then it would be a good way to protect existing dual carriageways that are not (yet) fit to be declared motorways but should be protected from inappropriate development. So the dual carriageway from J13-J17 on the N4 becomes the "North West Expressway", the N1 between Dundalk and the Border becomes the Northern Expressway, and so on for all the dual carriageways.

loyatemu · 26-02-2018 1:34pm

in France the "Voies Express" have a limit of 110km/h and are generally narrower than Autoroutes with more compact junctions, but are still restricted to motorised traffic. They're usually designated with this sign (which is also used on restricted single-carriage roads):

Carawaystick · 26-02-2018 11:31pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There was a cyclist death on the Ballincollig bypass last year. The cyclist was crossing over an exit and was collided with by a jeep. These roads are too dangerous for cyclists.

People driving vehicles are too dangerous for cyclists.

Middle Man · 27-02-2018 1:04am

Carawaystick wrote: »

People driving vehicles are too dangerous for cyclists.

Ok, so let us all get on our bikes and ban all cars - I'm sure the Irish economy will do great with all the tiny and fragmented demographic catchment areas - great for business and great if you or your loved one is sick or has a severe disability!!!

Get Real!

Aontachtoir · 27-02-2018 12:39pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Ok, so let us all get on our bikes and ban all cars!

That seems an odd conclusion to draw from a simple statement that the roads are a dangerous place for cyclists.

spacetweek · 27-02-2018 5:21pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Ok, so let us all get on our bikes and ban all cars - I'm sure the Irish economy will do great with all the tiny and fragmented demographic catchment areas - great for business and great if you or your loved one is sick or has a severe disability!!!

Get Real!

That was a ridiculous comment.

martiin · 01-03-2018 9:31pm

loyatemu wrote: »

in France the "Voies Express" have a limit of 110km/h and are generally narrower than Autoroutes with more compact junctions, but are still restricted to motorised traffic. They're usually designated with this sign (which is also used on restricted single-carriage roads):

In Poland we have expressways as well with same sign

Anyway, I'm wonder if there is any plans to put a toll on SRR? With motorway it might be much easier now

SeanW · 01-03-2018 10:33pm

spacetweek wrote: »

That was a ridiculous comment.

It was an intentionally ridiculous reply to an idiotic statement, blaming all motorists for an accident caused by a cyclist on what is effectively an Expressway.

spacetweek · 02-03-2018 10:16pm

SeanW wrote: »

It was an intentionally ridiculous reply to an idiotic statement, blaming all motorists for an accident caused by a cyclist on what is effectively an Expressway.

No it wasn't, he was serious.

marno21 · 14-05-2018 1:16am

I noticed on the N40 now just east of the Kinsale Road Roundabout there is a portable VMS sign displaying "Little Island Jct 7 mins". Looks like TII are trialling this in advance of erecting permanent VMS signs on the route. These will be incredibly handy for crashes and tunnel closures.

Chris_5339762 · 14-05-2018 5:45pm

I saw one of them at Little Island too the other day. Its just a VMS, nothing on the scale of the M50 ones, but I guess it'll do the job.

marno21 · 14-05-2018 7:54pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I saw one of them at Little Island too the other day. Its just a VMS, nothing on the scale of the M50 ones, but I guess it'll do the job.

Something on that scale is on the way over the next few years.. TII are taking the M40 very seriously

marno21 · 05-06-2018 3:49pm

N40/Dunkettle ITS Study, N40 Motorway Reclassification, TEN-T Route Study:
An allocation of €400,000 is available in 2018 between these three projects. WS Atkins has
been appointed to investigate and report on the N40/Dunkettle ITS Study and the N40
Motorway Reclassification. Procurement of a Consultant for the TEN-T Route Study is
underway. Intelligent Transport System (ITS) Ducting is being installed on all approaches to
Dunkettle Interchange

From the council.

SeanW · 05-06-2018 9:07pm

What exactly is the point of putting anything near the Dunkettle Interchange when all of that is about to be ripped up to build grade separation?

marno21 · 05-06-2018 9:11pm

SeanW wrote: »

What exactly is the point of putting anything near the Dunkettle Interchange when all of that is about to be ripped up to build grade separation?

It's actually part of the Dunkettle Interchange upgrade. VMS signage will be erected on approaches to the Interchange to notify drivers of any relevant information in relation to the upgrade (lane closures/reduced speed limits/chicanes/new road layouts etc)

The VMS will remain in place after the upgrade as part of the M40 ITS system.

M40 motorway redesignation and demand management system [works ongoing]

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