Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Paul Smeenus · 13-12-2019 11:03pm

mfceiling wrote: »

Still puts a shiver up my spine.

Superb.

And leads seamlessly to one of my most "no, rugby IS better than other sports" quotes - when they were getting back up after that, the young Welsh FB said, "welcome back".

13-12-2019 11:24pm

Zzippy wrote: »

John Cooney is in unbelievable from this season. Has to be in the squad and with a very good chance of the starting jersey

Without mentioning Peter O'Mahony it's become a very tight field at 9.

Murray has drifted back from his unplayable best, he's still performing well enough to be picked as the starting 9 without raising too many eyebrows but he's definitely been reeled in by the chasing pack.

Cooney looks incredibly dynamic this season and he mirrors Murray's ability to place kick reasonably well.

McGrath seemed the heir apparent after the world cup but he is in a tussle with Jameson Gibson Park for the starting jersey at Leinster and I can't see a provincial 2 starting as a national 1 unless the provincial 1 is Faf deKlerk.

And that also points to the form of JGP. He's so smart around the breakdown and Leinster seem to get more out of him off set piece ball. I think Jameson just has a bit more timing and nuance to his distribution game, whereas McGrath is a better defender and box kicker. Very representative strengths of the hemispherical competition between both players styles.

And then there is Marmion. Everyone would have bet their Granny he'd be back up to Murray for Japan. He is an All Black beating 9. Despite that he sat out the World Cup and has missed the start of the season so has little skin in the game right now.

Again, without bringing up Peter O'Mahony, the competition to be the starting Irish scrum half is probably as contended as it's ever been.

Paul Smeenus · 13-12-2019 11:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Without mentioning Peter O'Mahony it's become a very tight field at 9.

Murray has drifted back from his unplayable best, he's still performing well enough to be picked as the starting 9 without raising too many eyebrows but he's definitely been reeled in by the chasing pack.

Cooney looks incredibly dynamic this season and he mirrors Murray's ability to place kick reasonably well.

McGrath seemed the heir apparent after the world cup but he is in a tussle with Jameson Gibson Park for the starting jersey at Leinster and I can't see a provincial 2 starting as a national 1 unless the provincial 1 is Faf deKlerk.

And that also points to the form of JGP. He's so smart around the breakdown and Leinster seem to get more out of him off set piece ball. I think Jameson just has a bit more timing and nuance to his distribution game, whereas McGrath is a better defender and box kicker. Very representative strengths of the hemispherical competition between both players styles.

And then there is Marmion. Everyone would have bet their Granny he'd be back up to Murray for Japan. He is an All Black beating 9. Despite that he sat out the World Cup and has missed the start of the season so has little skin in the game right now.

Again, without bringing up Peter O'Mahony, the competition to be the starting Irish scrum half is probably as contended as it's ever been.

What if there were multiple injuries and we had to play...say... one of our blindsides at scrumhalf?

ANY THOUGHTS, VENJUR?

Felix Jones is God. · 13-12-2019 11:30pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

What if there were multiple injuries and we had to play...say... one of our blindsides at scrumhalf?

ANY THOUGHTS, VENJUR?

CJ Saviour!!

13-12-2019 11:32pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

What if there were multiple injuries and we had to play...say... one of our blindsides at scrumhalf?

ANY THOUGHTS, VENJUR?

I would obviously pick someone who is good at intentionally winding up other teams, getting in their faces and generally having handbags.

Someone like Tommy O'Donnell.

Paul Smeenus · 13-12-2019 11:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I would obviously pick someone who is good at intentionally winding up other teams, getting in their faces and generally having handbags.

Someone like Tommy O'Donnell.

You don't want a scrumhalf that's good in the lineout?

13-12-2019 11:46pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

You don't want a scrumhalf that's good in the lineout?

Bazzo · 14-12-2019 12:45pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Without mentioning Peter O'Mahony it's become a very tight field at 9.

Murray has drifted back from his unplayable best, he's still performing well enough to be picked as the starting 9 without raising too many eyebrows but he's definitely been reeled in by the chasing pack.

Cooney looks incredibly dynamic this season and he mirrors Murray's ability to place kick reasonably well.

McGrath seemed the heir apparent after the world cup but he is in a tussle with Jameson Gibson Park for the starting jersey at Leinster and I can't see a provincial 2 starting as a national 1 unless the provincial 1 is Faf deKlerk.

And that also points to the form of JGP. He's so smart around the breakdown and Leinster seem to get more out of him off set piece ball. I think Jameson just has a bit more timing and nuance to his distribution game, whereas McGrath is a better defender and box kicker. Very representative strengths of the hemispherical competition between both players styles.

And then there is Marmion. Everyone would have bet their Granny he'd be back up to Murray for Japan. He is an All Black beating 9. Despite that he sat out the World Cup and has missed the start of the season so has little skin in the game right now.

Again, without bringing up Peter O'Mahony, the competition to be the starting Irish scrum half is probably as contended as it's ever been.

Caolin Blade has been very very good this season(and last). I'm a pyjama wearing Marmion fan but he has a job to get the starting jersey back from Blade, and he is 100% as deserving as any of the others to be in the squad. Also the youngest of the bunch.

Jump_In_Jack · 14-12-2019 1:18pm

Think people are forgetting how good Tadhg Beirne is at 6.
I’d let him play lock at Munster and 6 for Ireland.
Glad to see Munster are selecting Beirne at 6 and O’Mahony at 7 against Saracens.

Clegg · 14-12-2019 1:38pm

Beirne has never impressed with Ireland. That could be down to the more attritional style we played under Schmidt, that didn't allow him to use his best attributes. Or it could be that he's simply too lightweight for test rugby. But no matter the reason he's still down the list of potential starters for 6 or at lock.

Jump_In_Jack · 14-12-2019 1:58pm

Clegg wrote: »

Beirne has never impressed with Ireland. That could be down to the more attritional style we played under Schmidt, that didn't allow him to use his best attributes. Or it could be that he's simply too lightweight for test rugby. But no matter the reason he's still down the list of potential starters for 6 or at lock.

You can’t say he’s lightweight as a 6, he’s much bigger than O’Mahony.
Maybe as a lock, but even then he’s plenty big enough for test rugby.

Faugheen · 14-12-2019 2:36pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

You can’t say he’s lightweight as a 6, he’s much bigger than O’Mahony.
Maybe as a lock, but even then he’s plenty big enough for test rugby.

But he gets pushed around a lot easier than POM does.

Lightweight does not mean he’s not big enough.

Jump_In_Jack · 14-12-2019 2:48pm

Faugheen wrote: »

But he gets pushed around a lot easier than POM does.

Lightweight does not mean he’s not big enough.

That’s just not true at all.
If he gets a run of games at 6 I’m hopeful he can get back to the level he was at before he moved to Munster.

AbusesToilets · 14-12-2019 6:04pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Think people are forgetting how good Tadhg Beirne is at 6.
I’d let him play lock at Munster and 6 for Ireland.
Glad to see Munster are selecting Beirne at 6 and O’Mahony at 7 against Saracens.

Hard to forget something that's not a reality. The best thing I can say about Beirne, is that he's not Kleyn. Utterly anonymous in green, marginally better in red.

Faugheen · 14-12-2019 6:12pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

That’s just not true at all.
If he gets a run of games at 6 I’m hopeful he can get back to the level he was at before he moved to Munster.

I was going to reply for this but the lad’s just after getting a potentially bad ankle injury. Not keen on going into it now and hope he can recover swiftly.

AbusesToilets · 14-12-2019 8:13pm

Hard to look past Leinster for the majority of the team currently. Hendo in the row is about it in the pack for me. Stockdale and Conway in the backs, Cooney of course, Marmion also possibly.

Faugheen · 14-12-2019 8:18pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Hard to look past Leinster for the majority of the team currently. Hendo in the row is about it in the pack for me. Stockdale and Conway in the backs, Cooney of course, Marmion also possibly.

More than happy for Stander to continue playing at 8

Shefwedfan · 14-12-2019 9:13pm

For me at the moment it is a throw up between Cooney at 9 and rewarding him for his exceptional form. Or if they are taking a long term view then it has to be Blade. Or maybe start Cooney and keep Blade on bench.

I just don't see Murray playing well enough now to start,he is better and his form is returning but I still think the other two are better options.

At 10, if Carbery is fit then he starts. If not, well I think people know who I would like

Stockdale at 15 is interesting, he played very well last night. At one stage we couldn't replace Rob and now we have a few running for 15. I still think Larmour has to start with Stockdale on wing. Haley is not far behind.

Wing for me is a toss up between Conway/Stockdale/Earls with D Kearney backing them up.

Back row, well for me it would be Ruddock, VDF, Stander. Most other roles pick themselves. Furlong v Porter is interesting. Furlong looked to be back in form....a rest over Christmas and he could be starting. If not then if Porter continues he will start.

thebaz · 14-12-2019 9:46pm

Feals like deja-vu - World cup over and most Irish players back to playing ther best - is the pressure cooker of a world cup they can't handle or was it poor selections - I wonder will I ever see an Irish team perform consistently at a WC

Shefwedfan · 14-12-2019 9:54pm

thebaz wrote: »

Feals like deja-vu - World cup over and most Irish players back to playing ther best - is the pressure cooker of a world cup they can't handle or was it poor selections - I wonder will I ever see an Irish team perform consistently at a WC

I think in 2015 we had a major hang over....

In 2019 it doesn’t seem to be the case which suggests the system and selection was wrong and the players where in form...Similar to after 2011

sydthebeat · 14-12-2019 10:47pm

thebaz wrote: »

Feals like deja-vu - World cup over and most Irish players back to playing ther best - is the pressure cooker of a world cup they can't handle or was it poor selections - I wonder will I ever see an Irish team perform consistently at a WC

At RWC times other counties get their players to the same degree we get ours, therefore our USP at club level, and at 6N level is greatly reduced.

We are not as good as we think we are, and at RWC times we have not been one of the top four teams in the world, therefore we've never made an RWC semi final.

Burkie1203 · 14-12-2019 10:57pm

Based on 4 rounds of Europe

Healy Kelleher Furlong Ryan Henderson Stander VDF Doris
Cooney Byrne Stockdale Aki Ringrose Conway Larmour

kingofthekong · 14-12-2019 11:40pm

Yep

Doris needs to play, 8. Doris, CJ 6, VDF 7

Shefwedfan · 14-12-2019 11:51pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Based on 4 rounds of Europe

Healy Kelleher Furlong Ryan Henderson Stander VDF Doris
Cooney Byrne Stockdale Aki Ringrose Conway Larmour

Porter for Furlong would be only change but not much in it

Burkie1203 · 14-12-2019 11:57pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Porter for Furlong would be only change but not much in it

Furlong was very good tonight. Think we saw a reaction to his omission last week. Think it was something Joe needed to do in the 6n this year to light a fire under a few players.

McCloskey / Aki was a 50-50 call

I hope Ross Byrne gets a chance to start a game in the 6n.

Dubinusa · 15-12-2019 4:33pm

Think Byrne is the frontrunner now. His calmness and confidence are unreal. Burns is right there too. With Sexton out, there is a chance for the chasing pack to stake a claim. Carberry needs to perform. Farrell should not bring him back in unless he's performing and controlling games.
Still think Scannell will get the nod at hooker. He's been very solid so far.
James Ryan could wear a sportbra a mini skirt, heels and fishnets and he still starts. All while playing, of course.

Clegg · 15-12-2019 4:56pm

We've a conundrum in the backrow. It's clear that our starting trio of POM, VDF and Stander didnt work well at the World Cup. Stander has played pretty well for Munster since returning and VDF is playing the best rugby of anyone in Ireland right now. I'd say PoM deserves dropping, but so many people are advocating his credentials as a captain. The next problem is that if he's not starting it's pointless having him as a sub so he's out of the 23 altogether. Don't know if Farrell would be brave enough for that.

I'd go a bit left field and move Stander to 6 and bring Doris right in. Do what Schmidt did in 2017/18 and parachute the young guns straight into the side. If you're good enough, lack of experience doesn't matter

troyzer · 15-12-2019 4:57pm

Clegg wrote: »

We've a conundrum in the backrow. It's clear that our starting trio of POM, VDF and Stander didnt work well at the World Cup. Stander has played pretty well for Munster since returning and VDF is playing the best rugby of anyone in Ireland right now. I'd say PoM deserves dropping, but so many people are advocating his credentials as a captain. The next problem is that if he's not starting it's pointless having him as a sub so he's out of the 23 altogether. Don't know if Farrell would be brave enough for that.

I'd go a bit left field and move Stander to 6 and bring Doris right in. Do what Schmidt did in 2017/18 and parachute the young guns straight into the side. If you're good enough, lack of experience doesn't matter

I'd love to see a positive argument for POM's inclusion. He's been poor for ages.

Felix Jones is God. · 15-12-2019 5:03pm

troyzer wrote: »

I'd love to see a positive argument for POM's inclusion. He's been poor for ages.

Only in boards posters eyes.... in Joe's and Andy's eyes he's been a demigod, and that's all that matters

P.Walnuts · 15-12-2019 5:04pm

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

Only in boards posters eyes.... in Joe's and Andy's eyes he's been a demigod, and that's all that matters

:pac:

AbusesToilets · 15-12-2019 5:15pm

Clegg wrote: »

We've a conundrum in the backrow. It's clear that our starting trio of POM, VDF and Stander didnt work well at the World Cup. Stander has played pretty well for Munster since returning and VDF is playing the best rugby of anyone in Ireland right now. I'd say PoM deserves dropping, but so many people are advocating his credentials as a captain. The next problem is that if he's not starting it's pointless having him as a sub so he's out of the 23 altogether. Don't know if Farrell would be brave enough for that.

I'd go a bit left field and move Stander to 6 and bring Doris right in. Do what Schmidt did in 2017/18 and parachute the young guns straight into the side. If you're good enough, lack of experience doesn't matter

Here's a wild idea, how about they accept the reality in front our faces and pick the backrow that performs week in, week out.

Ruddock VDF Doris/ Deegan

That's it. Stander remains what he's always been, a physical player, with limited ball skills.

salmocab · 15-12-2019 5:17pm

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

Only in boards posters eyes.... in Joe's and Andy's eyes he's been a demigod, and that's all that matters

Loathe as I am to get involved in this debate we don’t know what Andy thinks yet.
Personally I think the back row lacks balance it’s not particularly the individuals but the collective that hasn’t functioned. Heaslip was the Jedi prophecy and it was he that brought balance to the force/backrow.

15-12-2019 5:24pm

I think Doris could make the extended squad at this rate.

troyzer · 15-12-2019 5:31pm

Malakai Some Revolution wrote: »

I think Doris could make the extended squad at this rate.

I think he'll start at least against Italy.

theVersatile · 15-12-2019 6:01pm

Were talking about POM and Beirne getting outmuscled and being too light yet we want to throw Dorris straight into the starting team? Deegan has some meat on him atleast but Doris is lean and would get thrown around at international level.

Bazzo · 15-12-2019 6:06pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Were talking about POM and Beirne getting outmuscled and being too light yet we want to throw Dorris straight into the starting team? Deegan has some meat on him atleast but Doris is lean and would get thrown around at international level.

Where are you getting that from? Looks totally comfortable at European level.

15-12-2019 6:38pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Were talking about POM and Beirne getting outmuscled and being too light yet we want to throw Dorris straight into the starting team? Deegan has some meat on him atleast but Doris is lean and would get thrown around at international level.

Really don't agree with this at all, he's been very abrasive. He carried for about 130m in the past two games.

Shefwedfan · 15-12-2019 7:22pm

salmocab wrote: »

Loathe as I am to get involved in this debate we don’t know what Andy thinks yet.
Personally I think the back row lacks balance it’s not particularly the individuals but the collective that hasn’t functioned. Heaslip was the Jedi prophecy and it was he that brought balance to the force/backrow.

Heaslip was a huge loss.....one which was filled by the Leavy so it wasn't noticed. When both Leavy and Heaslip where gone then the s**t hit the fan

Anyone that thinks a back row of POM/VDF/Stander is going to work going forward is completely mad. I said it prior to the WC we would lose with that backrow.....

I don't know if Doris or Deegan is the answer. Or moving Stander to 6. I think at this stage the only player who is certain to start if fit and still in form is VDF. Then you build players around him to get a balanced back row.

Nobody has mentioned Ruddock who has been incredible this season so far and is a monster. Something we need against the English/French back rows.

Dubinusa · 15-12-2019 7:42pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Heaslip was a huge loss.....one which was filled by the Leavy so it wasn't noticed. When both Leavy and Heaslip where gone then the s**t hit the fan

Anyone that thinks a back row of POM/VDF/Stander is going to work going forward is completely mad. I said it prior to the WC we would lose with that backrow.....

I don't know if Doris or Deegan is the answer. Or moving Stander to 6. I think at this stage the only player who is certain to start if fit and still in form is VDF. Then you build players around him to get a balanced back row.

Nobody has mentioned Ruddock who has been incredible this season so far and is a monster. Something we need against the English/French back rows.

I've pushed Ruddock! Easily the best in form 6 for quite a while now! Offers brute strength, speed and skill. In fact, he would take some of the load off Stander and Healy! His defense is top notch. He's capable at the line out and is a good leader.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Nordi getting some minutes either. He in turn has a huge upside, plays all 3 positions, has experience and is a really good player.

Shefwedfan · 15-12-2019 8:33pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I've pushed Ruddock! Easily the best in form 6 for quite a while now! Offers brute strength, speed and skill. In fact, he would take some of the load off Stander and Healy! His defense is top notch. He's capable at the line out and is a good leader.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Nordi getting some minutes either. He in turn has a huge upside, plays all 3 positions, has experience and is a really good player.

Nordi best position is 7, I think he is quality as well. When he started the NZ game he was the answer to 7, that injury opened up the door to VDF....I still like him and he is best option on bench because he can cover all positions

Ruddock is a man beast, it would have been jnteresting if we got SA in qtr I would have expected him to start

I do think we have quality players and lots of them, just need to figure out what best combination is

stephen_n · 15-12-2019 10:39pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Were talking about POM and Beirne getting outmuscled and being too light yet we want to throw Dorris straight into the starting team? Deegan has some meat on him atleast but Doris is lean and would get thrown around at international level.

He’s 3kg’s lighter than Deegan, not a huge amount and at 106kg’s he’s only a kg lighter than POM

15-12-2019 11:00pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Were talking about POM and Beirne getting outmuscled and being too light yet we want to throw Dorris straight into the starting team? Deegan has some meat on him atleast but Doris is lean and would get thrown around at international level.

Without in anyway discussing his chances for a call up nor comparing him to Beirne or POM, Dorris has pretty formidable stopping power. His excellent tackle stats are genuinely only half the story, he works very hard to be in the right place and he is properly solid in contact. He added plenty of physicality and urgency to our defence. I think the conversation has shifted from Doris v Deegan to Doris v Conan.

For the sake of clarity - absolutely none of this had anything to do with Peter O'Mahony.

troyzer · 15-12-2019 11:03pm

Midi Olympique are reporting that Sexton has been approached by Lyon who are looking to buy out the last year of his contract.

15-12-2019 11:08pm

troyzer wrote: »

Midi Olympique are reporting that Sexton has been approached by Lyon who are looking to buy out the last year of his contract.

Meh. He owes us nothing. If he wants to get well paid for his last year or two instead of winning silverware then I've no issue with that.

He obviously made an impression in the away fixture. Confirms my impression that he is playing first class rugby at the moment, despite what happened at the World Cup.

Squidgy Black · 15-12-2019 11:10pm

troyzer wrote: »

Midi Olympique are reporting that Sexton has been approached by Lyon who are looking to buy out the last year of his contract.

Would be shocked if it happened, mostly because I don't think the IRFU would be keen to set a precedent saying central contracts can be bought out if big clubs coming banging on the door.

Clegg · 15-12-2019 11:18pm

I wonder would Sexton be keen to leave a second time. His time at Racing wasn't very successful and Lyon don't play a brand of rugby that he'd be keen on. Suppose it all comes down to money though.

Shefwedfan · 15-12-2019 11:23pm

Clegg wrote: »

I wonder would Sexton be keen to leave a second time. His time at Racing wasn't very successful and Lyon don't play a brand of rugby that he'd be keen on. Suppose it all comes down to money though.

I said on leinster thread

He has mentioned a few times when him and Misses left they had no kids. Young and free. They had a kid over in Paris, I think when he was still in France he done an interview saying how hard it was with no grandparents etc

I think they have a few now.....I doubt he has any interest in going to France unless he leaves the family here and commutes over and back. Seemingly Pinear was doing it from Belfast to Montpellier and I know DOC was doing it when in England.

Would Sexton really need the money? also in Lyon does he really have the chance of winning the Top 14?

I think his time was ok, Racing wanted to sign him again and offered him huge money. When he didn't resign then the French took the hump. All sorts came out after that. Before when they wanted him to stay it was all rosy

yerrahbah · 16-12-2019 4:20pm

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1206593203513806848

Shefwedfan · 16-12-2019 4:26pm

The big question is who is not in the squad

Rob Kearney is the big name for me not on thelist

Anyone else?

Felix Jones is God. · 16-12-2019 4:28pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The big question is who is not in the squad

Rob Kearney is the big name for me not on thelist

Anyone else?

Jordi Murphy and John Ryan are out?

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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