Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

Bass Reeves · 12-08-2020 1:26pm

kilburn wrote: »

Goes straight through Moyross, back of Thomondgate, middle of Corbally, Dublin road at the parkway, Ballysimon road then station.

5 minute walk to Thomond Park and Gaelic Grounds for matches.

If it was reasonably priced I would use no problem.

In a perfect world you would have a spur from Sixmilebridge through Shannon with stops at Smithstown, Free Zone and Airport.

Interesting that it also interesting that Thomond pK is only a 10minute walk from the CC. 5minute walk to Corbett station, 10 minute train journey if you can get one and five.minute walk from this future station to Thomand PK. You be there before any train service on foot on a match day and you definitely wouldn't be using it after a match.

The LUAS was all the rage one time on GAA match days. After the match was the problem. Quing in Abbey street for an hour or waiting on O Connell street and the full trams passing you by. Much easier to take the car into near Croke Park and even if you have to pay for parking it cheaper than the train fairs

kilburn · 12-08-2020 1:28pm

Bass Reeves wrote:

Interesting that it also interesting that Thomond pK is only a 10minute walk from the CC. 5minute walk to Corbett station, 10 minute train journey if you can get one and five.minute walk from this future station to Thomand PK. You be there before any train service on foot on a match day and you definitely wouldn't be using it after a match.

People coming from the Galway or Clare side then wouldn't have to go into the city and walk back out.

Bass Reeves · 12-08-2020 1:36pm

kilburn wrote: »

People coming from the Galway or Clare side then wouldn't have to go into the city and walk back out.

If I from Galway if I am using PT I take a bus I might as well go to the CC in Limerick a d have a pint while waiting for my pal on the train to arrive. Unles I from Ennis I might as well drive as I might be mugged......in Ennis

Lord Glentoran · 12-08-2020 1:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think you only need look at the farce that is the WRC from Ennis to Athenry to see how this would perform

Perhaps a fact check mark for Boards posts wouldn’t go amiss

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 1:52pm

kilburn wrote: »

Goes straight through Moyross, back of Thomondgate, middle of Corbally, Dublin road at the parkway, Ballysimon road then station.

5 minute walk to Thomond Park and Gaelic Grounds for matches.

If it was reasonably priced I would use no problem.

In a perfect world you would have a spur from Sixmilebridge through Shannon with stops at Smithstown, Free Zone and Airport.

It's a nice idea, but who may I ask would frequent a line looping around the outskirts of Limerick from Moyross to Colbert Station? A stop at the Parkway for example would leave you 3.5kms from the National Technology Park, so pretty much useless for anyone working there. It being handy for a matchday is not exactly a good business plan (and Google maps make those walking times 18 mins and 30 mins).

Yes there are existing heavy rail lines around Limerick, but they don't go where people actually want to go. The largest suburb of Limerick is Castletroy, where UL as well as the NTP are also located, but there are no rail lines anywhere near it.

I'll again go back to my point that the best way to provide good PT for Limerick is better bus services, which can actually go to where people will use it. So improved bus infrastructure and routes and park and ride facilites on the outskirts.

Oh and there is already an excellent bus service between Shannon and Limerick serving Smithstown,the industrial estate and the airport 25 times a day on the 343 route with the 51 and x51 going directly between the airport and Limerick another 14 times a day. There isn't a requirement for a rail spur.

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 1:54pm

kilburn wrote: »

People coming from the Galway or Clare side then wouldn't have to go into the city and walk back out.

People from Galway or Clare can park in the Raddison and use the matchday Park and ride facility. Or actually Park around the stadium like the currently do.

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 1:59pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's a nice idea, but who may I ask would frequent a line looping around the outskirts of Limerick from Moyross to Colbert Station? A stop at the Parkway for example would leave you 3.5kms from the National Technology Park, so pretty much useless for anyone working there. It being handy for a matchday is not exactly a good business plan (and Google maps make those walking times 18 mins and 30 mins).

Yes there are existing heavy rail lines around Limerick, but they don't go where people actually want to go. The largest suburb of Limerick is Castletroy, where UL as well as the NTP are also located, but there are no rail lines anywhere near it.

I'll again go back to my point that the best way to provide good PT for Limerick is better bus services, which can actually go to where people will use it. So improved bus infrastructure and routes and park and ride facilites on the outskirts.

Oh and there is already an excellent bus service between Shannon and Limerick serving Smithstown,the industrial estate and the airport 25 times a day on the 343 route with the 51 and x51 going directly between the airport and Limerick another 14 times a day. There isn't a requirement for a rail spur.

Thanks for this, a reasonable refutation of the merits of the scheme without resorting to raising the spectre of sparsely utilised rural lines, I would say Limerick would probably benefit most from new bus lines.

Is there anywhere along the rail lines then that Limerick should look at for any future expansion (Either commercial or residential)? Planning going forward could then focus on building PT nuclei for future rail stations.

Bass Reeves · 12-08-2020 3:36pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Thanks for this, a reasonable refutation of the merits of the scheme without resorting to raising the spectre of sparsely utilised rural lines, I would say Limerick would probably benefit most from new bus lines.

Is there anywhere along the rail lines then that Limerick should look at for any future expansion (Either commercial or residential)? Planning going forward could then focus on building PT nuclei for future rail stations.

The answer is no. Even the theory that a Foynes line will reopen for freight is blinkered. At present rail moves very little freight due to just in time logistics. Ireland is a small country with a low population density spread sparsely , there is no point in carrying goods a distance on rail to unload and reload onto trucks to move it 50 or 60% of the original distance.

If you wanted to build a city you would not copy Limerick. Traditionally it had three local authorities the city council had a small area about 2Km in a circle around the city. LK Co Co developed areas outside the city bounds such as Raheen/Doiradoyle and Castletroy. These are large sprawling area's. Add to that Clare Co Co developing Corbably all these area are 2-5km from the city center.
The thing that has revolutionised Limerick was the ring road and the Tunnel. It allowed people to access work without having to go through the city center.
I am sorry for sounding dismissive over the last few posts but the idea of throwing hundred of millions at rail in Limerick that cannot make better the public transportation system is galling. The idea that in this time if crisis a rail line to Adare deveserves Cabinet time is ridiculous.

What worse is an attitude of why would you refuse it. 4-500 million would solve a lot of transportation problems in Limerick using buses. It might even give people a choice of not needing a second car. But because it not a rail solution it not Green

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 3:50pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The answer is no. Even the theory that a Foynes line will reopen for freight is blinkered. At present rail moves very little freight due to just in time logistics. Ireland is a small country with a low population density spread sparsely , there is no point in carrying goods a distance on rail to unload and reload onto trucks to move it 50 or 60% of the original distance.

If you wanted to build a city you would not copy Limerick. Traditionally it had three local authorities the city council had a small area about 2Km in a circle around the city. LK Co Co developed areas outside the city bounds such as Raheen/Doiradoyle and Castletroy. These are large sprawling area's. Add to that Clare Co Co developing Corbably all these area are 2-5km from the city center.
The thing that has revolutionised Limerick was the ring road and the Tunnel. It allowed people to access work without having to go through the city center.
I am sorry for sounding dismissive over the last few posts but the idea of throwing hundred of millions at rail in Limerick that cannot make better the public transportation system is galling. The idea that in this time if crisis a rail line to Adare deveserves Cabinet time is ridiculous.

What worse is an attitude of why would you refuse it. 4-500 million would solve a lot of transportation problems in Limerick using buses. It might even give people a choice of not needing a second car. But because it not a rail solution it not Green

I feel like the Greens get the short end of every stick, demonised by rail proponents for wanting greenways, demonised by bus corridor proponents for wanting rail, demonised by car owners for wanting public transit.

I'm sure if you asked Mr Leddin what he sees as the key solutions to get Limerick moving in a sustainable way, he'd probably say massive expansion of

cycling provision
improvement of pedestrian permeability
more bus lanes, buses and maybe QBCs
trains

In that order, the article just suggests he wants feasibility done for the rail aspect. Which would very likely result in the above stated issues becoming clear. I'm not saying its where Limerick transportation should be focused right now, but it begs the question, where is Limerick Transportation focused? I know they seem to want to get rid of the only Cycleway across the Shannon in the city, so where do the priorities lie?

If the Foynes line is entirely unworkable for Freight or Commuter use, I would then suggest it, and the Concrete Plant Spur, be 'greenwayed' ASAP to provide a safe pedal powered option for getting in to the city centre

Ash.J.Williams · 12-08-2020 3:53pm

Last Stop wrote: »

I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

aren't most of them bankrupt or in ruins now? and 1000's are dying building Quatar!

kilburn · 12-08-2020 4:00pm

Bass Reeves wrote:

If you wanted to build a city you would not copy Limerick. Traditionally it had three local authorities the city council had a small area about 2Km in a circle around the city. LK Co Co developed areas outside the city bounds such as Raheen/Doiradoyle and Castletroy. These are large sprawling area's. Add to that Clare Co Co developing Corbably all these area are 2-5km from the city center. The thing that has revolutionised Limerick was the ring road and the Tunnel. It allowed people to access work without having to go through the city center. I am sorry for sounding dismissive over the last few posts but the idea of throwing hundred of millions at rail in Limerick that cannot make better the public transportation system is galling. The idea that in this time if crisis a rail line to Adare deveserves Cabinet time is ridiculous.

Corbally is in Limerick City not Clare....

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 4:01pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I feel like the Greens get the short end of every stick, demonised by rail proponents for wanting greenways, demonised by bus corridor proponents for wanting rail, demonised by car owners for wanting public transit.

I'm sure if you asked Mr Leddin what he sees as the key solutions to get Limerick moving in a sustainable way, he'd probably say massive expansion of
cycling provision

improvement of pedestrian permeability

more bus lanes, buses and maybe QBCs

trains

In that order, the article just suggests he wants feasibility done for the rail aspect. Which would very likely result in the above stated issues becoming clear. I'm not saying its where Limerick transportation should be focused right now, but it begs the question, where is Limerick Transportation focused? I know they seem to want to get rid of the only Cycleway across the Shannon in the city, so where do the priorities lie?

That's what the LSMATS plan is deciding. Really he should wait for the publication of the this plan before deciding what he want to be done. And Eamonn Ryan should be telling him the same.

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 4:05pm

kilburn wrote: »

Corbally is in Limerick City not Clare....

Corbally is in the Electoral Division of Clooney, in Civil Parish of Clooney, in the Barony of Bunratty Upper, in the County of Clare
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-upper/clooney/clooney/corbally/

Corbally straddles both counties.

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 4:05pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's what the LSMATS plan is deciding. Really he should wait for the publication of the this plan before deciding what he want to be done. And Eamonn Ryan should be telling him the same.

Well I really hope that LSMATS is more ambitious for sustainable travel than CMATS was...

Bass Reeves · 12-08-2020 4:06pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I feel like the Greens get the short end of every stick, demonised by rail proponents for wanting greenways, demonised by bus corridor proponents for wanting rail, demonised by car owners for wanting public transit.

I'm sure if you asked Mr Leddin what he sees as the key solutions to get Limerick moving in a sustainable way, he'd probably say massive expansion of
cycling provision

improvement of pedestrian permeability

more bus lanes, buses and maybe QBCs

trains

In that order, the article just suggests he wants feasibility done for the rail aspect. Which would very likely result in the above stated issues becoming clear. I'm not saying its where Limerick transportation should be focused right now, but it begs the question, where is Limerick Transportation focused? I know they seem to want to get rid of the only Cycleway across the Shannon in the city, so where do the priorities lie?

If the Foynes line is entirely unworkable for Freight or Commuter use, I would then suggest it, and the Concrete Plant Spur, be 'greenwayed' ASAP to provide a safe pedal powered option for getting in to the city centre

I have no problem with Greenway's and I think it a great use of unused rail lines. Most of the opposition is from those that want them reopened. The Concrete Plant spur was tarmacked over on the Dock road 4-5 years ago,I say it a lot of 10 years since there was a train in the plant. Ya turn that section into a cycleway.

The problem with the cycleway across the bridge is it took a lane off the busiest bridge in Limerick. It should have been possible to either erect a lower spec bridge for pedestrians or cyclists..

This on a bridge that over thirty years ago when the contractor arrived on side he offered them two extra lanes on the bridge for an extra 10% on the cost. There was no hoops to be jumped through then with projects like that. LK corporation refused as they have to spend extra on a cess to and from it

Bass Reeves · 12-08-2020 4:09pm

kilburn wrote: »

Corbally is in Limerick City not Clare....

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Corbally is in the Electoral Division of Clooney, in Civil Parish of Clooney, in the Barony of Bunratty Upper, in the County of Clare
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-upper/clooney/clooney/corbally/

Corbally straddles both counties.

Everything from the bridge that splits it in two is in Co. Clare. It is the biggest half now.

kilburn · 12-08-2020 4:09pm

Cookiemunster wrote:

Corbally straddles both counties.

You might want to look at those maps you shared again.

I live in Corbally and can confirm for you it's not a townland out side Ennis near Quinn........

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 4:14pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have no problem with Greenway's and I think it a great use of unused rail lines. Most of the opposition is from those that want them reopened. The Concrete Plant spur was tarmacked over on the Dock road 4-5 years ago,I say it a lot of 10 years since there was a train in the plant. Ya turn that section into a cycleway.

The problem with the cycleway across the bridge is it took a lane off the busiest bridge in Limerick. It should have been possible to either erect a lower spec bridge for pedestrians or cyclists..

This on a bridge that over thirty years ago when the contractor arrived on side he offered them two extra lanes on the bridge for an extra 10% on the cost. There was no hoops to be jumped through then with projects like that. LK corporation refused as they have to spend extra on a cess to and from it

Given it is intended as a COVID-19 emergency measure I think the point was to implement it quickly rather than spend 10 years on feasiblity and planning of a pedestrian/cycle bridge (but I suggest they get on that yesterday (see Athlone)).

Also solving the issue of the busiest bridge in Limerick being busy probably doesn't involve more space for cars. (But I digress)

I think as a matter of urgency they would want to look at quick wins on cycling and pedestrian routes, the section from town to where the concrete spur comes off is dual track, which probably wouldn't be needed for a freight line anyway, so there is potential there without killing the Foynes line. Probably a million street cycleways that could be laid down. while they are at that they can Island all the bus stops and prepare their key bus corridors for Limerick Busconnects...

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 4:22pm

kilburn wrote: »

You might want to look at those maps you shared again.

I live in Corbally and can confirm for you it's not a townland out side Ennis near Quinn........

OK I should have looked at that a bit closer, but......

Shannon Banks, Corbally, Co ?????
Westbury, Corbally, Co ?????

Can you guess the county? Hint, it's not Limerick. Everything on the far side of the river is in Clare and is still known as Corbally.

kilburn · 12-08-2020 4:26pm

Cookiemunster wrote:

Can you guess the county? Hint, it's not Limerick. Everything on the far side of the river is in Clare and is still known as Corbally.

No need to be rude.

Corbally is and always was a Limerick suburb, Clare leveraged that for easy planning contributions.

Bass Reeves · 12-08-2020 4:28pm

kilburn wrote: »

No need to be rude.

Corbally is and always was a Limerick suburb, Clare leveraged that for easy planning contributions.

And I made that exact point relating to Castletroy and Dooradoyle/Raheen as well

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 4:28pm

kilburn wrote: »

No need to be rude.

Corbally is and always was a Limerick suburb, Clare leveraged that for easy planning contributions.

Which is exactly the point Bass made, before you tried to be smart about it.

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 4:39pm

Listen, the only Corbally townland anywhere near Limerick seems to be this one

https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/clanwilliam/st-patricks/abbey-a/corbally/

Which is definitely in Limerick, I neither know, nor care, if that's the correct one, it doesn't exactly seem relevant to the Adare rail line or the Limerick transport strategy in general...

kilburn · 12-08-2020 5:11pm

Cookiemunster wrote:

Which is exactly the point Bass made, before you tried to be smart about it.

I was not being smart anywhere I don't know if Bass is familiar with Limerick or Clare.

PhilOssophy · 12-08-2020 7:03pm

I never got the love-in with trains other than that people perceive that there's a certain elitism connected with them.
Public transport needs to be quick, reliable, cost-effective and to serve both high-density residential areas and where there is large-scale employment centres. A bus service costs a bucket of paint and buses, a train line costs a fortune.
People have bleated for years about a train from Dublin airport, yet the bus through the port tunnel has you in the city centre in 15-20 minutes which is far quicker than any train line.
People need to get real, a train line to places like Adare, Sixmilebridge (population 2,507) etc is nonsense.
Also, if there really is the demand for public transport to these places, why not put it out to tender and see if a private operator thinks he can make any money on it...I have no problem with subsidised public transport but it can't be at enormous cost.

Bass Reeves · 12-08-2020 7:55pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Listen, the only Corbally townland anywhere near Limerick seems to be this one

https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/clanwilliam/st-patricks/abbey-a/corbally/

Which is definitely in Limerick, I neither know, nor care, if that's the correct one, it doesn't exactly seem relevant to the Adare rail line or the Limerick transport strategy in general...

I was point out the issues with trying to solve limerick PT issues with rail.

kilburn wrote: »

I was not being smart anywhere I don't know if Bass is familiar with Limerick or Clare.

Limerick is like NY with its five boroughs. There are five distint area's of the city. The city itself mostly the south of the river starting at Ballincurra. circled by the Childers road and coming in through Rhebogue onto St Marys Church, Thomongate , all the North circular road area and in by Sarsfield bridge.

Then you have the Chairdavin Area from the Condell road, swinging up to Moylish and out around Moyross.

The area referred to as Corbally would start at the Bridge after ST Mary's Church and continues out to include Shannon banks and Westbury both in Co Clare.

Castletroy area would be from the Park way, around UL in Pleassy, Milford, Kilmurry, Monaleen and now taking in parts of Annacotty

Doordoyle/Raheen is from the Cresent SC north and south bounded by the new road on one side and by the existing LK-Foynes road on the other side.

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 11:17pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Well I really hope that LSMATS is more ambitious for sustainable travel than CMATS was...

Only spotted this now. Limerick already has the vast majority of it road network in place with the SRR and tunnel and the N18 into Shannon. The only thing that's left to be considered is the LNDR. Because of that I'd expect the LSMATS to be heavily focused on PT and cycling.

Paddico · 19-08-2020 1:51pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was point out the issues with trying to solve limerick PT issues with rail.

Limerick is like NY with its five boroughs. There are five distint area's of the city. The city itself mostly the south of the river starting at Ballincurra. circled by the Childers road and coming in through Rhebogue onto St Marys Church, Thomongate , all the North circular road area and in by Sarsfield bridge.

Then you have the Chairdavin Area from the Condell road, swinging up to Moylish and out around Moyross.

The area referred to as Corbally would start at the Bridge after ST Mary's Church and continues out to include Shannon banks and Westbury both in Co Clare.

Castletroy area would be from the Park way, around UL in Pleassy, Milford, Kilmurry, Monaleen and now taking in parts of Annacotty

Doordoyle/Raheen is from the Cresent SC north and south bounded by the new road on one side and by the existing LK-Foynes road on the other side.

:D:D:D:D Best quote yet

whisky_galore · 22-08-2020 8:37am

Maybe a rebuilt line to Clifden?... I hear it's renowned for its golf.

PhilOssophy · 22-08-2020 3:15pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Maybe a rebuilt line to Clifden?... I hear it's renowned for its golf.

Great idea, could even get a Connacht Minister to open it....oh wait....

andrewfaulk · 26-08-2020 9:16am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The answer is no. Even the theory that a Foynes line will reopen for freight is blinkered. At present rail moves very little freight due to just in time logistics. Ireland is a small country with a low population density spread sparsely , there is no point in carrying goods a distance on rail to unload and reload onto trucks to move it 50 or 60% of the original distance.

If you wanted to build a city you would not copy Limerick. Traditionally it had three local authorities the city council had a small area about 2Km in a circle around the city. LK Co Co developed areas outside the city bounds such as Raheen/Doiradoyle and Castletroy. These are large sprawling area's. Add to that Clare Co Co developing Corbably all these area are 2-5km from the city center.
The thing that has revolutionised Limerick was the ring road and the Tunnel. It allowed people to access work without having to go through the city center.
I am sorry for sounding dismissive over the last few posts but the idea of throwing hundred of millions at rail in Limerick that cannot make better the public transportation system is galling. The idea that in this time if crisis a rail line to Adare deveserves Cabinet time is ridiculous.

What worse is an attitude of why would you refuse it. 4-500 million would solve a lot of transportation problems in Limerick using buses. It might even give people a choice of not needing a second car. But because it not a rail solution it not Green

This post about freight is blinkered.. Not sure where exactly it is all coming from, but it seems that there is an unhealthy obsession with JIT supply chains on boards.ie the past few months. JIT makes up a very small proportion of freight movements, maybe 5% worldwide linked mainly to car manufacturing, of which there is none in Ireland. Furthermore, the high cost of JIT operation, environmental concerns and the numerous supply chain disruptions over the past few years(Brexit and COVID, to name just two examples) mean it is likely to become less common not more common.

The Foynes' lines prospects of re-opening are tied to moving bulk cargo, which is what rail freight does best, and which most definitely is not suited to JIT.. If the Pallas green mine opens east of Limerick, this would provide a base load of 2-3 train loads of ore per day to Foynes. This would move by rail from the mine head site to Foynes port with no road movement involved. The idea of people moving cargo by rail to then be trucked long distance is a nonsense, and I don't think there are any real world examples of this. Once the rail line is open, it would open up other prospects for moving bulk cargo to/from Foynes Port, grain/animal feed and fuel products are two that spring to mind. Another possibility would be a container flow from Askeaton to Waterford or Dublin Ports

Cookiemunster · 26-08-2020 9:59am

JIT is most certainly not just related to the car industry. Any large manufacturing company such as Intel or Vistakon will work on an JIT model. And there are a lot, lot more than just Intel and Vistakon in Ireland.

PhilOssophy · 26-08-2020 10:49am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

JIT is most certainly not just related to the car industry. Any large manufacturing company such as Intel or Vistakon will work on an JIT model. And there are a lot, lot more than just Intel and Vistakon in Ireland.

They will. And in a country the size of Ireland Intel etc will have no interest in arsing around with rail lines to deliver stuff anywhere when they can get stuff there quicker by road!

kilburn · 26-08-2020 11:13am

PhilOssophy wrote: »

They will. And in a country the size of Ireland Intel etc will have no interest in arsing around with rail lines to deliver stuff anywhere when they can get stuff there quicker by road!

I cant imagine many would expect the likes of electronic components etc to use rail but the Foynes line is being pushed for the Zinc mine and anything else that would use the line is a bonus.

There is so much potential and opportunity.

PhilOssophy · 26-08-2020 11:26am

kilburn wrote: »

I cant imagine many would expect the likes of electronic components etc to use rail but the Foynes line is being pushed for the Zinc mine and anything else that would use the line is a bonus.

There is so much potential and opportunity.

To where though? If it is being shipped surely it goes straight onto a boat there? Where is it being transported by rail to?
Excuse my ignorance here by the way, I am honestly curious where it would be going.

L1011 · 26-08-2020 11:59am

We have no lead/zinc smelters here. Boliden smelt the Tara ore in Norway and Finland.

PhilOssophy · 26-08-2020 12:27pm

L1011 wrote: »

We have no lead/zinc smelters here. Boliden smelt the Tara ore in Norway and Finland.

That is what I would have thought!

L1011 · 26-08-2020 1:03pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

That is what I would have thought!

I think I've realised the confusion here - there is another zinc mine proposed for Pallas Green which would almost certainly have a no trucks planning condition like Tara has; with export via Foynes proposed.

The Foynes lines best chance of reopening is privately funded, for this traffic; with it then being available cheaper/easier for any other traffic afterwards.

lucernarian · 26-08-2020 1:09pm

L1011 wrote: »

I think I've realised the confusion here - there is another zinc mine proposed for Pallas Green which would almost certainly have a no trucks planning condition like Tara has; with export via Foynes proposed.

The Foynes lines best chance of reopening is privately funded, for this traffic; with it then being available cheaper/easier for any other traffic afterwards.

They still couldn't link Navan to Drogheda for passengers despite the freight line being in good condition and offering a potential new station at the commuter town of Duleek.

I've no hope for Limerick when there's already such low hanging fruit at Drogheda that's ignored.

L1011 · 26-08-2020 1:18pm

lucernarian wrote: »

They still couldn't link Navan to Drogheda for passengers despite the freight line being in good condition and offering a potential new station at the commuter town of Duleek.

I've no hope for Limerick when there's already such low hanging fruit at Drogheda that's ignored.

There is no capacity on the Northern Line for, nor rolling stock to operate such a service; which would not be competitive with coaches down the M3 either.

However, I would not expect passenger services to ever resume on the Foynes line.

andrewfaulk · 26-08-2020 2:09pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

They will. And in a country the size of Ireland Intel etc will have no interest in arsing around with rail lines to deliver stuff anywhere when they can get stuff there quicker by road!

Not to repeat myself but "JIT makes up a very small proportion of freight movements". The vast majority of freight by volume worldwide is moved in bulk.

JIT is not relevant to any discussion about rail freight, because in the general scheme of things it moves in small volumes, often not enough to fill a 13.6m trailer let alone a full train

So can we please park the obsession with JIT in relation to railfreight..

Railfreight is bulk freight and containers

bk · 26-08-2020 3:20pm

To be clear, you couldn't get a country less suited to railfreight then Ireland.

Railfreight is suited to very heavy industry and mining and carried over very long distances where sea is not an option.

Ireland has little in the way of heavy industry or mining. It is an island with very short distances and every city has a port making those distances even shorter.

Most Irish industry is small to medium sized and is all almost exclusively Just In Time oriented. Most of Irelands industry is based around agriculture and food processing as as a result you can imagine is very time sensitive.

Most freight in Ireland arrives in/out via trucks on Ferry or loaded onto trucks from container ships. Truck rolls off a ferry and 1 to 2 hours later it is at it's destination factory/warehouse.

No industry in Ireland is going to wait around for a few days for a train worth of containers to be loaded on a train, then when the train arrives, unload the containers off the train and onto a truck for the last distance to the factory.

Outside of the small amount of mining and maybe forestry we do, rail-freight simply makes no sense at all for most companies here.

riddlinrussell · 26-08-2020 3:28pm

bk wrote: »

To be clear, you couldn't get a country less suited to railfreight then Ireland.

Railfreight is suited to very heavy industry and mining and carried over very long distances where sea is not an option.

Ireland has little in the way of heavy industry or mining. It is an island with very short distances and every city has a port making those distances even shorter.

Most Irish industry is small to medium sized and is all almost exclusively Just In Time oriented. Most of Irelands industry is based around agriculture and food processing as as a result you can imagine is very time sensitive.

Most freight in Ireland arrives in/out via trucks on Ferry or loaded onto trucks from container ships. Truck rolls off a ferry and 1 to 2 hours later it is at it's destination factory/warehouse.

No industry in Ireland is going to wait around for a few days for a train worth of containers to be loaded on a train, then when the train arrives, unload the containers off the train and onto a truck for the last distance to the factory.

Outside of the small amount of mining and maybe forestry we do, rail-freight simply makes no sense at all for most companies here.

I would point out that the argument being made above for this specific line is that exactly the industry (mining) you say we do a small amount of that might require rail transport, is the specific industry this line is being reopened for, so why are you talking about JIT etc?

Pallasgreen to Foynes by rail for the industry that specifically might need rail transport seems like a total no-brainer?

bk · 26-08-2020 3:48pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I would point out that the argument being made above for this specific line is that exactly the industry (mining) you say we do a small amount of that might require rail transport, is the specific industry this line is being reopened for, so why are you talking about JIT etc?

Pallasgreen to Foynes by rail for the industry that specifically might need rail transport seems like a total no-brainer?

Sure and I'd have no issue with that, at least not without looking into the details of it *

Andrew seems to be bringing up JIT being 5% of the worlds freight and making a wider argument about rail-freight and I'm just explaining the high level reality of freight movement in Ireland which most of which is relatively light and relatively very time sensitive.

98% of Irelands freight is carried by road and that isn't going to change. Because that is what most companies here want.

* On the specific mines, obviously that depends if they start mining, how much they mine, the cost of road versus rail, planning requirements, etc. If they want rail-freight and are willing to pay for it and it doesn't require massive government investment or interfere with passenger services, then of course, fire away.

Pete_Cavan · 26-08-2020 3:56pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I would point out that the argument being made above for this specific line is that exactly the industry (mining) you say we do a small amount of that might require rail transport, is the specific industry this line is being reopened for, so why are you talking about JIT etc?

Pallasgreen to Foynes by rail for the industry that specifically might need rail transport seems like a total no-brainer?

Surely the no-brainer option there is to invest in the existing operational Limerick - Waterford line, and any necessary improvements at Bellvue (which already handles rail freight) and send the stuff there? Lim - Wat is operational but in need of investment, upgrading it is likely to be cheaper and delivered more benefits in terms of passenger services than rebuilding Limerick - Foynes. Marino Point in Cork could be another option in terms of port with existing rail adjacent, Port of Cork want to develop it for rail freight.

L1011 · 26-08-2020 4:20pm

Belview is not a huge port and is focused mostly on containers; I doubt it has the spare bulk capacity.

lucernarian · 26-08-2020 4:46pm

L1011 wrote: »

There is no capacity on the Northern Line for, nor rolling stock to operate such a service; which would not be competitive with coaches down the M3 either.

However, I would not expect passenger services to ever resume on the Foynes line.

Who said anything about the Northern Line? A shuttle service to tie in with enterprise or commuter could easily be done with building a platform 3 in Drogheda. It could also travel onwards to Laytown to cater for it's continually growing population. This has nothing to do with the M3 either, but regional connectivity with infrastructure that's literally already in place.

As for rolling stock, that would equally affect any plan to serve Adare, and that was my point to begin with. If Navan-Drogheda won't work, this certainly won't.

L1011 · 26-08-2020 5:47pm

lucernarian wrote: »

Who said anything about the Northern Line? A shuttle service to tie in with enterprise or commuter could easily be done with building a platform 3 in Drogheda. It could also travel onwards to Laytown to cater for it's continually growing population. This has nothing to do with the M3 either, but regional connectivity with infrastructure that's literally already in place.

As for rolling stock, that would equally affect any plan to serve Adare, and that was my point to begin with. If Navan-Drogheda won't work, this certainly won't.

There's no space on the trains from Drogheda for people to transfer through either!

Drogheda-Navan is never going to carry passenger traffic again. If Navan gets commuter rail it will be via Clonsilla.

lucernarian · 26-08-2020 6:39pm

L1011 wrote: »

There's no space on the trains from Drogheda for people to transfer through either!

Drogheda-Navan is never going to carry passenger traffic again. If Navan gets commuter rail it will be via Clonsilla.

If that's the case then this thread's topic won't go anywhere. But again you're mistakenly considering that Drogheda - Duleek - Navan isn't a viable source of journeys in and of itself. Why is this? The population catchment it serves has the guts of 100,000 people and the existing bus service is appalling. The point isn't at all about bringing to people to Dublin any more than a line from Adare to Limerick would.

Pete_Cavan · 26-08-2020 7:56pm

L1011 wrote: »

Belview is not a huge port and is focused mostly on containers; I doubt it has the spare bulk capacity.

I'm sure bulk capacity at Belview could be expanded and upgrades made to the Lim - Wat line for a fraction of the cost of rebuilding the Foynes line and installing entirely new rail facilities there.

Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

Comments