Waterford University discussion

Dexpat wrote: »

imacman wrote: »

Yes that is accurate, they have a role called assistant lecturer which is their junior grade and the pay is a lot less that the equilvent WIT ot other colleges in the IT sector. They have hired at large body of staff that level for the last few years, there is actually 4 or 5 of them advertised on the job vacancies section of their website at the moment.


ble.

Where are they advertised?

Dexpat wrote: »

fits wrote: »

https://www.itcarlow.ie/vacancies.htm

The assistant lecturer roles for Carlow IT here are at a salary scale of €38,138- €52,403 for new entrants. This is exactly the same scale in other ITs including WIT and in TU Dublin.

Maybe staff in Carlow are on poorer conditions but they aren't paid less.

I know where the Carlow ones are. Waterford rarely seem to advertise jobs at least I don’t see them often in the website. Was just wondering if I was looking in wrong place. Carlow do a lot more hiring.

fits wrote: »

Dexpat wrote: »

I know where the Carlow ones are. Waterford rarely seem to advertise jobs at least I don’t see them often in the website. Was just wondering if I was looking in wrong place. Carlow do a lot more hiring.

https://www.wit.ie/schools/science/dept-faculty-and-staff

They don't seem to have any academic post advertised at the moment but you can see from the staff profiles that they have plenty of assistant lecturers. It was said yesterday that this was unique to Carlow but in fact they are common to all ITs.

I suppose the lack of jobs available at the moment tells its own story. Its amazing that they have done relatively well with the resources they have available. The merger is being forced on them and if it goes ahead available resources will probably be diluted around the region rather than having a strong base like the other TUs.

imacman wrote: »

My argument on the ITcarlow lecturer contract issues are based on this story from last year
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/another-tech-university-project-hit-by-wrangle-over-26m-issue-38294742.html

Also, Waterford IT lecturers have more favourable work practices, and bringing the systems into line would cost IT Carlow €2m-€3m a year.

It is understood that official projections of the combined deficit/debt and potential additional payroll costs would put the new TU into the red to the tune of €26m by 2024/25.

And of course the massive MTU/ITtralee financial difficulties that are set out in the story were never mentioned or acknowleged when thr MTU was announced last week

Yeah fair enough. I'm not arguing with your overall points.

I had never heard of the associate lecturer position. From the Carlow jobs you posted it seems to be related to teaching of childcare or social studies at level 5 rather than level 6 certs and higher. I can't see the salary scales. I presume that they are lower than AL. If so I doubt they can lecture at degree level.

The whole process is political now and based on rationalisation and cost savings. Regional development and academic criteria are an afterthought at best.

CramCycle wrote: »

I taught level 5, 6, 7 and 8 as an AL. Salary was about €66 an hour when I was at it, I think its €60 now. Salaried AL is between €38k upto €52k. Once salaried there is a number of lecturing hours, prep hours and dependent on the IT a requirement to engage in research or something similar.

I actually found it better for getting suitable staff than the University requirements which could discount experience over union agreed requirements for certain qualifications. It often means HR throw out people with 20 years relevant experience and put forward a freshly graduated PhD for interview.

We had lecturers who built Pharma plants, Qualified Persons, leaders in business and innovation, advisers to various businesses at the highest level. I presume most of them done it for CSR but it was great for the students.

Yeah I knew that ALs can teach up to the highest level as the lecturing grade they are on reflects when they joined the institution, not their experience or abilities.

For some of them it can be difficult to get a permanent position because academica puts more weight on having a masters and PhD rather than on their industry experience. I know someone who took a 50k pay cut for a permanent AL post for the long term quality of life it can give. She will be expected to have a PhD before she has any chance of advancing to a lecturer grade though. She is lecturing to masters level though as managers in her department recognise her experience.

The lowering of the AL salaries for new entrants was another factor making it difficult to get suitable staff.

The associate lecturer grade in Carlow is probably more teaching to level 5 and it doesn't appear on third level salary pay scales so I'm sure it won't be allowed to become the norm elsewhere. I doubt there were too many of them so it probably doesn't explain the differences in finacial positions of WIT compared to Carlow. Different working conditions and other factors highlighted by imacman probably do though.

invara wrote: »

If the Programme for Government emerges this week, we should finally have some visibility on the proposed future of WIT and higher ed in the SE. All the body language points to a Carlow-Waterford merger, with Carlow as an equal or near equal partner, and little or now funding to expand.

If this is the case, the TU will just be a waymarker and a full university campaign is the next milestone. The TU is a Dublin plan to thwart the emergence of a full university in the region, to protect UCD, UCC etc...

Meanwhile the Government is contemplating the request for a €300-500m bailout from the seven universities. If the SE had a full university, we would be asking for a minimum of 10% of that fund (~€30-50m just for this year)- this bailout is just to get over the COVID bump.

Agreed , I fully expect lots of promises to fund the TUSEI which wont materalise after the designation is completed.The government are only interested in giving the Southeast a University name and will quickly lose interest once that is done. In the upcoming recession we will be told the funding will have to be spent on other more important areas like health or housing and the institutes will be told to get on with it as best they can.

fits wrote: »

Do you really believe that? It’s nothing to do with poor third level attendances and lack of skills in the region? I’m amazed at some of the things I am reading here.

If they are so concerned about the skills shortage and third level attendances in the region why do they not go the full hog and deliver a full university rather than one which almost by definition cannot compete with existing universities and their regions? An independent review of WIT in 2005 concluded that it was operating at university level but its application for university designation was never processed. Why was that? Mid West has UL. Mary I and LIT in a region not dissimilar to the south east.

fits wrote: »

Do you really believe that? It’s nothing to do with poor third level attendances and lack of skills in the region? I’m amazed at some of the things I am reading here.

The universities have done everything they can to block a university in the Southeast for the last 30 years.UL and DCU were the last through the gate and there is a determination to have no more universities in the country which will dilute their funding.

They dont care about the TU's and they see it for what they are,rebranded ITs without the funding structures and prestige of a real university.They are no threat to the existing status quo and wont lure many students away from the existing universities. Any students who have the points and want to go to university wont choose MTU or TUSEI over UCC, UCD or Trinity. And the students who are at IT level will just continue to go to the new TUs. That suits the universities just fine instead of a funded and fully established university in Waterford drawing students from all over the country

This is exactly what I am taking about
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/colleges-face-crisis-as-funding-in-freefall-1.4269546
SO WIT and ITCarlow are been forced into a merger at the worst possible time , there will be no funding to expand and both institutes will they will be told "operate within existing budgets and make cuts where necessary" so we will end up with a name change and both institute less effective than they are now as they go through the difficult merger process without financial support.

No wonder both institutes are dragging their feet on this.I really wish all the local politicians and industry leaders who keep saying we need a university/TU in the south east would look in detail at the current position of third level funding and the forecasts going forward.I noticed the chronic financial position of ITTralee was never mentioned amongst the celebrations about MTU . We don't need a just a university/TU name in the south east , we need a properly funded one .
But my fear is we end up with a university in name only, both institutes operating at the same or lesser levels than they are now and being told to make cuts to balance the budget. And if anyone complains we will be told sure we got you a university what more do you want

azimuth17 wrote: »

I am sceptical of the TU, it doesn't solve our problems, but can anyone tell me why Dublin and Cork, especially the latter, were so anxious to grab it? If we don't take it will there be a flight of students to the TUs in preference to ITs?

There are three key differences between TUD, MTU and TUSE.
#1. TUD and MTU had a clear HQ in DIT and CIT, WIT, and Carlow are being told they are equals (setting up an almighty bust up after they merge). If effect the large partner is taking over small insitituions.

#2. Both Cork and Dublin have existing universities, so these mergers are defensive rather than expansive... Cork will not allow CIT encroach on UCC, DIT is in a sticky spot under DCU/UCD/TCD. CIT and DIT are not seeking growth, rather they are looking to position around existing insititutions. They want the university brand, but do not need the university money/growth.

#3. CIT and DIT have significant long term political patronage, and have received consistent investment (€1bn Grangegorman... CIT is always first in the queue getting €28m this Christmas for two projects). WIT has not been supported by any regional politican in a long time and has not been favoured by capital investment. So CIT and DIT have no legacy of political mistrust- they have never have a President removed by Marlborough Street.

At last somebody in politics is saying this.

https://waterfordnow.ie/business/waterford-has-been-outflanked-and-overtaken-calls-for-wit-to-fight-for-university-status-without-carlow-unless-deadline-is-met/

imacman wrote: »

Yea but the Labour party doesn't have a Waterford TD so unfortunately its pretty irrelevant

Too little too late... Labour had their chance under Brendan Howlin in Wexford but he couldn't bear to see Waterford get ahead just like Hogan (FG) in Kilkenny... Their mantra was anybody but Waterford

What are the chances of WIT made join the Munster Technology University grouping now that Cork will have 3 x senior ministers inuding the Taoiseach...more asset stripping of Waterford for the benefit of Cork is on the cards for the duration of the next Dáil

rebs23 wrote: »

Same process for everyone though.

It ain't the same for everyone, WIT has had little to no investment from government in the last 10-15 years, what they have had though is their funding cut by about 25%, bearing in mind fixed costs are about 90% of the budget. Other ITs and unis have had funding showered on them so the situation is not the same and saying it's same process for all ignores the reality of the entire situation.

rebs23 wrote: »

Ah seriously it is exactly the same process and to blame someone else for the log jam that exists between Carlow and Waterford IT on the issue is bizarre. As for upgrading to a University it cannot be done with a flick of a switch, it needs you to illustrate a certain level of competency for it to be recognised internationally. That is why the Tech Uni process exists to ensure the credibility of the institution, standards, etc. If the institutions themselves can't do this themselves well that kind of says it all really.

in numerous independent reports such as Dr. Port it was found WIT was already operating at University level and in any other country would be classified as a university in its own right and on its own merit

rebs23 wrote: »

The same could be said of every other IT over the last 10 years. Universities for capital projects generally have a mix of state and other sources of funding. Why is it always the "Government's fault" or other regions doing one over on you, etc when on the Uni issue it is clearly in the hands of the institutions in the South East.

Rebs, always nice to get a visit from our Cork-overlords... (joke!).

No the same cannot be said for every IoT. €28m into CIT in Dec/Jan, €17.5m into LIT for the ongoing Coonagh Campus, Grangegorman is a €1bn project. WIT is even pushed back into phase II of the PPP projects.

The CIT/Tralee process was really suspicious- they did not meet the criteria (in the panel report and the Deloitte audit) and it appears a caretaker minister pushed them over the line nonetheless. Almost 100 days after losing power in the midst of the COVID crisis. The whole thing stinks. Full documents on the process are here... https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/6fcb5-munster-technological-university/

rebs23 wrote: »

Look the process in the South East is stalled because of politics in the South East and if you won't do it for yourselves and go through whats in front of you then you will be stalled indefinitely.

TUSE is stalled because there is nothing in it for the people of the SE. It is being done to our region against our wishes. On day 1 of TUSE we will be back in lockstep with the 2nd string institutions in Cork/Limerick/Galway... yippie.

No access to university funding, locked out of borrowing, and we do not even get the small sweeties that Cork and Dublin got for their TU.

BBM77 wrote: »

I wonder why there is such hostility from existing universities to WIT being upgraded.

https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/news/555200/waterford-irelands-ict-innovation-capital-top-ranking-for-wit-in-european-research-funding.html

I really dont see this hostility at all. I find the persecution complex in this thread perplexing.