Waterford University discussion

robtri

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Graduation rates are only important if the course is worth graduating from. You could abolish all exams and course work and make graduation just dependent on turning up but the course would not be worth a p1ss. But hey, graduation rates would be 99% so it has to be the best institution in Ireland.

ohhh and on that silly logic, the reverse is also true, a IT college could have a 99% failure rate and still be considered the best?

This reflects how effective the IT is at delivering its courses.

Its not the be all and end all, but it is an important number.

fuzzy dunlop wrote:

And if you read the article properly is states that the graduation rating is not a ranking metric. If you read HEA document that the article is linked to it states it as well. But hey! If you want to go around thinking Letterkenny is the best tertiary education institute in the country then go ahead. As much as you want non progression rates to be a negative metric for WIT it isn't one. Students who enter third level institutes are not children anymore they have to pass course work to graduate. Its not some new age school that lets everyone win the "egg and spoon race" just for taking part.It's a competitive institution preparing people for a competitive world.

Well if you actually read the article correctly, instead of skiming it to get only what you want out of it.

The article states the HEA is not intending to introduce a ranking system... so there are no Metrics as there is no HEA ranking system...

here's the passage

According to the HEA, the report is not intended to be seen as an attempt to introduce a ranking system, but a way of highlighting “how different institutions have different strengths”.

fuzzy dunlop

robtri wrote: »

ohhh and on that silly logic, the reverse is also true, a IT college could have a 99% failure rate and still be considered the best?”

This reflects how effective the IT is at delivering its courses.

Its not the be all and end all, but it is an important number.

We're not talking about 99% we're talking about 21% which is moderately above average and from a report from nearly five years ago.A 99% figure is so ridiculous that it would mean there was obviously something wrong. You're forgetting the other 80% who have no problem with course delivery which is the vast majority by any metric so indicates there is nothing wrong with course delivery..

robtri wrote: »

Well if you actually read the article correctly, instead of skiming it to get only what you want out of it.

The article states the HEA is not intending to introduce a ranking system... so there are no Metrics as there is no HEA ranking system...

here's the passage

According to the HEA, the report is not intended to be seen as an attempt to introduce a ranking system, but a way of highlighting “how different institutions have different strengths”.

So its still not a ranking system or metric. You have a major problem dealing with that fact....

I read the article the first time it was posted and the report and it makes no conclusion on the importance of progression rates. You are the one trying to make that connection.

robtri

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

We're not talking about 99% we're talking about 21% which is moderately above average and from a report from nearly five years ago.A 99% figure is so ridiculous that it would mean there was obviously something wrong. You're forgetting the other 80% who have no problem with course delivery which is the vast majority by any metric so indicates there is nothing wrong with course delivery..




So its still not a ranking system or metric. You have a major problem dealing with that fact....

I read the article the first time it was posted and the report and it makes no conclusion on the importance of progression rates. You are the one trying to make that connection.

what being the worst is not a sign they are doing something wrong with course delivery?.. well thats one way of looking at it...


no as there are none by the HEA, but yet they deem it important to track...
you are the one who cant seem to see anything wrong with someone point out just plain facts....

whether you want to ignore them as they don't fall into your perceived perception of how things are, they are just two facts
1. HEA do not do any rankings, but do deem it important to track rates
2. WIT has the worst number from the results for IT

fuzzy dunlop

robtri wrote: »

what being the worst is not a sign they are doing something wrong with course delivery?.. well thats one way of looking at it...

That's because they are not the worst. They are the a best if it as indicator of course difficulty.

robtri wrote: »

no as there are none by the HEA, but yet they deem it important to track...
you are the one who cant seem to see anything wrong with someone point out just plain facts....

They are not plain facts. In the absence of other data they are just numbers. They are useless for making other conclusions on their own. They are less that useless as they are now years old. You are attributing them to quality of course delivery which you have no reason to do....

robtri wrote: »

whether you want to ignore them as they don't fall into your perceived perception of how things are, they are just two facts
1. HEA do not do any rankings, but do deem it important to track rates
2. WIT has the worst number from the results for IT

1.This is a fact which makes no other assumptions about the rate we are talking about for the simple reason their is a whole host of possible causes that the rate is high that have nothing to do with course quality.


2. It doesn't. It's just your wishful thinking

imacman

Story on WLR site Jan O'Sullivan believes huge progress has been made on SE tech uni.
http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/51864-jan-osullivan-believes-huge-progress-has-been-made-on-se-tech-uni.html
You can replace the word huge with no.
Word is that there has been even more problems at cooperating at the highest levels between the 2 institutes. There has been no updates for the ordinary staff and issue seems to have been shelved with no agenda or timescale. Its interesting that both presidents conferring speech's made no mention of the TU.How much longer can the politicians and local vested interests continue the charade that this merger is a good idea.

Wanderer78

imacman wrote: »

How much longer can the politicians and local vested interests continue the charade that this merger is a good idea.

sadly it looks like theres a good chance of fg getting back in again, so this could drag on for some time yet!

comeraghs

It's time that the government pulled the plug on this silly WIT/Carlow merger and started the process of WIT upgrading to University, a proper University.

PolaroidPizza

comeraghs wrote: »

It's time that the government pulled the plug on this silly WIT/Carlow merger and started the process of WIT upgrading to University, a proper University.[/QUOTE

I've said it many times before, the country cannot afford the universities it already has...never mind adding another one.

Wanderer78

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

I've said it many times before, the country cannot afford the universities it already has...never mind adding another one.

oh the moneys there alright, to do this, amongst other things!

fiachr_a

comeraghs wrote: »

It's time that the government pulled the plug on this silly WIT/Carlow merger and started the process of WIT upgrading to University, a proper University.

Munster Express headline, 1985.

PolaroidPizza

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh the moneys there alright, to do this, amongst other things!

I don't disagree the money is there. look at how much money is floating around organisations like the IFA and Rehab, and wasted on things like postcodes and Irish water, and dumped unquestioningly into the health department.

The Irish electorate is not going to go voting for anyone who has the desire to change the system...
if we just went through the worst economic crisis in our countries history and didn't change the way politics works, we're definitely not gonna change it up now that there's a perception the country is on the up.

therefore, we are not going to have the money for any additional universities...or even to bring the standard of the existing universities up to the EU average.

Wanderer78

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

I don't disagree the money is there. look at how much money is floating around organisations like the IFA and Rehab, and wasted on things like postcodes and Irish water, and dumped unquestioningly into the health department.

The Irish electorate is not going to go voting for anyone who has the desire to change the system...
if we just went through the worst economic crisis in our countries history and didn't change the way politics works, we're definitely not gonna change it up now that there's a perception the country is on the up.

therefore, we are not going to have the money for any additional universities...or even to bring the standard of the existing universities up to the EU average.

you should look into our private banking system! you might be surprised where all our moneys going! i think we just wasted a crisis. i cant ever see things changing is this country

imacman

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

comeraghs wrote: »

It's time that the government pulled the plug on this silly WIT/Carlow merger and started the process of WIT upgrading to University, a proper University.[/QUOTE

I've said it many times before, the country cannot afford the universities it already has...never mind adding another one.

CarlowIT is going to spend 100M on self financing upgrading their campus , they seem to have money without any input from the government.Also the European investment bank have just given DCU 168m really low interest loan to for facility upgrades.Also UL have been really successful in getting private sector funding for development purposes and private sector Financial partnerships are part of the development plans of UCD and Trinity.So the taxpayer isn't the only way to finance a university.

Max Powers

imacman wrote: »

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

CarlowIT is going to spend 100M on self financing upgrading their campus , they seem to have money without any input from the government.Also the European investment bank have just given DCU 168m really low interest loan to for facility upgrades.Also UL have been really successful in getting private sector funding for development purposes and private sector Financial partnerships are part of the development plans of UCD and Trinity.So the taxpayer isn't the only way to finance a university.

Do you think Carlow IT, DCU, UL are gonna pay that without extra govt support/Money promised. Looks like a smoke screen to me, you get the loan, we'll pay most of it

BBM77

imacman wrote: »

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

CarlowIT is going to spend 100M on self financing upgrading their campus , they seem to have money without any input from the government.Also the European investment bank have just given DCU 168m really low interest loan to for facility upgrades.Also UL have been really successful in getting private sector funding for development purposes and private sector Financial partnerships are part of the development plans of UCD and Trinity.So the taxpayer isn't the only way to finance a university.

I’m pretty sure that WIT is well up in the rankings when it comes to getting private funding. The problem is government support/funding. As it always seems to be the case with Waterford in general. It is about time Waterford people wised up to this when it comes to how they vote.

invara

BBM77 wrote: »

imacman wrote: »

The problem is government support/funding. As it always seems to be the case with Waterford in general. It is about time Waterford people wised up to this when it comes to how they vote.

If you vote strictly based on the WIT/University issue who should you vote for?

This is my impression of the poor options we have:
Deasy- stuffed us in the PAC
Coffey- serving his time getting in with FG so did nothing for us, might be useful in the future
Conway- did labour minister for ed dirty work (Quinn and O'Sullivan) in ramming through TU, but might be useful in the future
Halligan- in opposition, but did come out batting when WIT pulled out of merger, but unlikely to ever weld power

Others
FF- they stuffed us between 2005-2011 and landed us with Hunt report
Cullinane- pushing for TU; does not seem to see having a TU is pointless, but has been pushing for more investment

7upfree

invara wrote: »

BBM77 wrote: »

If you vote strictly based on the WIT/University issue who should you vote for?

This is my impression of the poor options we have:
Deasy- stuffed us in the PAC
Coffey- serving his time getting in with FG so did nothing for us, might be useful in the future
Conway- did labour minister for ed dirty work (Quinn and O'Sullivan) in ramming through TU, but might be useful in the future
Halligan- in opposition, but did come out batting when WIT pulled out of merger, but unlikely to ever weld power

Others
FF- they stuffed us between 2005-2011 and landed us with Hunt report
Cullinane- pushing for TU; does not seem to see having a TU is pointless, but has been pushing for more investment

What a collection. There is no hope for this city.

Max Powers

invara wrote: »

BBM77 wrote: »

If you vote strictly based on the WIT/University issue who should you vote for?

This is my impression of the poor options we have:
Deasy- stuffed us in the PAC
Coffey- serving his time getting in with FG so did nothing for us, might be useful in the future
Conway- did labour minister for ed dirty work (Quinn and O'Sullivan) in ramming through TU, but might be useful in the future
Halligan- in opposition, but did come out batting when WIT pulled out of merger, but unlikely to ever weld power

Others
FF- they stuffed us between 2005-2011 and landed us with Hunt report
Cullinane- pushing for TU; does not seem to see having a TU is pointless, but has been pushing for more investment

This is just utter rubbish top be fair, every TD in the country could be written off by some nay-sayer. I guarantee you there are people in every county giving out about their TDs/ministers saying they haven't done anything/enough.
Picking the best of a bad bunch might be more realistic, that post just wrote off every candidate so my advice would be is to pick the least worst, pick the candidates least corrupt, most likely to be in government, all credit to independents for all their shouting, they achieve nothing. It is gratifying to see some independent making the powers squirm a bit but it achieves nothing for your constituency, vote for someone who will at least have access to the power.

imacman

I have heard from a few people in WIT that the college is in a really bad financial shape and may need a bail out from the government by the end of the year

wellboytoo

imacman wrote: »

I have heard from a few people in WIT that the college is in a really bad financial shape and may need a bail out from the government by the end of the year

So will I.

fiachr_a

7upfree wrote: »

What a collection. There is no hope for this city.

There is hope. The dopiest lads from my street are still living in the city. They've all got kids now so are passing on their gene pool to the next generation to save Waterford!

callaway92

imacman wrote: »

I have heard from a few people in WIT that the college is in a really bad financial shape and may need a bail out from the government by the end of the year

The lack of hiring and halting of more extensions/renovations would lead me to believe this is mildly true at least.

obezyana

One of the Engineering lecturer's mentioned the works on the new Engineering building have started. Surely if there was major financial issues then this wouldn't happen.

imacman

obezyana wrote: »

One of the Engineering lecturer's mentioned the works on the new Engineering building have started. Surely if there was major financial issues then this wouldn't happen.

They have gone for planning on the engineering building but its a token gesture as there is no cash to build it .The dept of education and HEa have just provided cash to bail out the while elephant of the sports campus so don't hold your breath on getting any more cash any other facilities (facilities that majority of students might use unlike the sports campus)
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/waterford-it-to-get-12m-to-finish-stalled-sports-complex-368978.html

obezyana

imacman wrote: »

They have gone for planning on the engineering building but its a token gesture as there is no cash to build it .The dept of education and HEa have just provided cash to bail out the while elephant of the sports campus so don't hold your breath on getting any more cash any other facilities (facilities that majority of students might use unlike the sports campus)
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/waterford-it-to-get-12m-to-finish-stalled-sports-complex-368978.html

They are already planning the ground works from what I seen out there a few weeks ago so maybe it is going ahead.

imacman

obezyana wrote: »

They are already planning the ground works from what I seen out there a few weeks ago so maybe it is going ahead.

The groundwork's have been there since 2009, the planning is being processed because they hope there might be some money for third level infrastructure going forward and if the project is shovel ready it may have a chance of getting funded.But this is only hope and to use a pun nothing is set in stone.

obezyana

imacman wrote: »

The groundwork's have been there since 2009, the planning is being processed because they hope there might be some money for third level infrastructure going forward and if the project is shovel ready it may have a chance of getting funded.But this is only hope and to use a pun nothing is set in stone.

Ah right its just when I was out there I seen lads at work plus with the lecturer telling us that it got the go ahead I didnt think things were that bad out there so.

imacman

I see ITcarlow are already building the Technological university. This is little insight into arrogance of Carlowit and you can see why the relationship with WIT is so toxic.WIT need to stand their ground with these bullies or WIT will end up just being and outreach campus of the Southeast (Carlow) Technological University

fiachr_a

imacman wrote: »

I see ITcarlow are already building the Technological university.

Is there a way of flooding the Barrow right beside Carlow IT? That would put a halt to their university nonsense.

imacman

Some really common sense commentary from the TUI on the technological university debate
http://www.tui.ie/news-events/technological-universities-bill-must-be-amended-to-protect-sector-.7924.html

‘We believe that the requirement that Institutes of Technology must merge before they can apply for Technological University status is more related to rationalisation of the institutes within the sector than to any academic considerations based on the particular missions, values and ethos of particular institutes. The exact rationale for this requirement has never been clearly established and it must be removed from the Bill.’

Throughout this whole process, there has, in some institutes, been a consistent failure to consult properly with the real experts - the academic staff.’

‘The Bill is excessively focused on the concerns of business and enterprise. It would be a grave mistake to prioritise the short-term needs of employers over the long-term needs of students and society. An appropriate balance is required.’