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Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Goddess Dana also exists in Slavic mythology and is triple star goddess to that...
    This is not "indo european" wide thing. This is very specifically concentrated in central Europe, among slavs and as you say in Ireland.

    dude, google "danu wikipedia"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)

    Dānu, a Hindu primordial goddess, is mentioned in the Rigveda, mother of the Danavas. The word Danu described the primeval waters which this deity perhaps embodied. In the Rigveda (I.32.9), she is identified as the mother of Vrtra, the demonic serpent slain by Indra.[1] In later Hinduism, she becomes the daughter of Daksha and the consort of Kasyapa.
    As a word for "rain" or "liquid", dānu is compared to Avestan dānu "river", and further to river names like Don, Danube, Dneiper, Dniestr, etc. There is also a Danu river in Nepal. The "liquid" word is mostly neuter, but appears as feminine in RV 1.54.
    As a Hindu goddess, Dānu has 2 temples in Bali, Indonesia: Pura Ulun Danu Temple on Lake Bratan, Bali and Ulun Danu Batur, near Penelokan.
    In Balinese cosmology, the Goddess Dewi Danu resides at and rules the lake on the second-highest peak in Bali, Mount Batur. She rules over several hundred subaks (irrigation system), or associations of farmers who share water from a single source, who make pilgrimages to her temple called Pura Ulun Danu, or the Temple of the Lake. There are four lakes in Bali and every lake has their own Pura Ulun Danu.

    or else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)

    Danu (Irish goddess)
    In Irish mythology, Danu ([ˈdanu]; modern Irish Dana [ˈd̪ˠanˠə]) is the mother goddess of the Tuatha Dé Danann (Old Irish: "The peoples of the goddess Danu"). Though primarily seen as an ancestral figure, some Victorian sources also associate her with the land.[1]
    Contents [hide]
    1 Name
    2 In mythology
    3 References
    4 External links
    Name[edit]

    The theonym is of Proto-Indo-European age, and seems to have denoted a water goddess in origin. A goddess Dānu is attested in the Rigveda, and also the river names Danube (Latin: Danuvius), Dniestr, Dniepr and Don derive from the name.
    The Rigvedic Danu was the mother of a race of Asuras called the Danavas. A shortened form of the name appears to have been Dā. This form survives in Greek Damater (Demeter, "mother Da"), who is associated with water several times.[2] The Proto-Indo-European *dānu probably meant "river." [3]
    The genitive form of Old Irish Danu is Danann, and the dative Danainn. Irish Danu is not identical with Vedic Dānu but rather descends from a Proto-Celtic *Danona, which may contain the suffix -on- also found in other theonyms such as Matrona, Maqonos/Maponos and Catona.[4][5


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    I don't want to go into it now it is not my area of interest but there are many people who claim that for instance slavic mitology and vedic mythology are curiously similar. That old slavic astronomy is increadibly precise and contains descriptions of phenomena only discovered by physicists in last few years. Certain hittite customs are described on hittite tablets are still practiced in eastern serbia

    Curious?

    I wonder why?

    What could be the source of these coincidences?

    hmmm....


    .... could it be THE INDO-EUROPEAN thing?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Hi Ezra



    but just because you find similarities between irish and indian culture, and because there are similarities between other cultures, this does not mean that similarities and links between european cultures mean nothing and are just signs that we are all indo europeans.

    .


    Of course.


    But similiarities explainable by common Indo-European cultural heritage should not be used to induce a migratory cultural exchange based on the premise inherent in this entire thread from your first post :

    Many years ago I noticed strange similarities between Irish and Serbian mythology, language, toponymes and hydronymes. This was a mystery because according to history, these two peoples never lived in the same area of Europe at the same time, and therefore should not have been able to influence each other. And yet the number of similar or identical cultural, religious and linguistic characteristics kept growing. Also, people between the Balkans and Ireland did not share these cultural traits. This meant that there was no cultural diffusion. The conclusion was that these two people (Serbian and Irish) must have lived together somewhere at some point in history in order to mix their languages and cultures so much.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    iamfick wrote: »
    so are you saying that zoroastrian mythology/religion is the same as greek mythology/religion? who is yima in greek mythology? are there varas in greek mythology? is there a bhujyu? is there a bahitra? i would seriously like to know if there is because i missed it and its my job not to miss such things.

    i think i would take a look at the material culture of the two entities before i said it was all fundamentally flawed. the irish did some unique things. the central europeans did the same unique things just a bit earlier and after an interlude did them again.

    and there is the problem of these genetics
    irish_origins.jpg
    looks like most of the irish are from central europe to me.

    so are you saying that zoroastrian mythology/religion is the same as greek mythology/religion?

    1. No of course zoroastrian mythology/religion is NOT the same as greek mythology/religion. The same way that Christianity is NOT an indo-European religion but preserves aspects of indo - european religion.

    who is yima in greek mythology?
    2. I presume that you are referring to Jamshid/Yima/Yama. In Greek religion he is Hades.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama

    "Yama in Iranian mythology[edit]
    Main article: Jamshid
    A parallel character in Iranian mythology and Zoroastrianism is known as Yima Xšaēta, who appears in the Avesta. The pronunciation "Yima" is peculiar to the Avestan dialect; in most Iranian dialects, including Old Persian, the name would have been "Yama". In the Avesta, the emphasis is on Yima's character as one of the first mortals and as a great king of men. Over time, *Yamaxšaita was transformed into Jamšēd or Jamshid, celebrated as the greatest of the early shahs of the world. Both Yamas in Zoroastrian and Hindu myth guard hell with the help of two four-eyed dogs.[6] [7]"

    "In Hinduism, Yama is the lokapala ("Guardian of the Directions") of the south. Three hymns (10, 14, and 35) in the 10th book of the Rig Veda are addressed to him. He has two dogs with four eyes and wide nostrils guarding the road to his abode (cf. hellhound). They are said to wander about among people as his messengers.[2]
    He was sometimes the son of Surya,[3] the sun god & Usha, and sometimes the son of Vivasvat & Saranya.[who?] In Sanskrit, Yama's name can be interpreted to mean "twin",[4] and in some myths, he is paired with a twin sister Yami or Yamuna.[5] In these myths, they are the first pair of humans in the world.
    In art, he is depicted with green or red skin and red clothes and rides a water buffalo. He holds a loop of rope in his left hand with which he pulls the soul from the corpse.His Greek counterpart is Hades or possibly Thanatos. His Egyptian counterpart is Osiris."

    Interestingly all three (Persian, Indian and Greek) guard the underworld using a dog! We hold festivities in his honour on 1st November every year here in Ireland!

    are there varas in greek mythology?

    varas - castes to the lay man.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
    "Many Indo-European societies know a threefold division of priests, a warrior class, and a class of peasants or husbandmen. Such a division was suggested for the Proto-Indo-European society by Georges Dumézil."

    In Ireland we had the bards, warriors, and farmers

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifunctional_hypothesis

    I am not aware of any Greek Castes. Then again that does not mean that they did not exist in prehistory.


    is there a bhujyu?


    4. I don't know what bhujyu is other than that it's the sanskrit for fire. In rome the God of fire is Vulcan. In Greece he is Hephaestus.

    is there a bahitra?


    5. Yea

    You mean, Vishnu's ark, right? In a flood myth?

    In Hindu mythology, texts such as the Satapatha Brahmana mention the puranic story of a great flood,wherein the Matsya Avatar of Vishnu warns the first man, Manu, of the impending flood, and also advises him to build a giant boat.

    The Greeks had the Deucalion legend: "as told by the Bibliotheca has some similarity to other deluge myths such as the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah's Ark. The titan Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest. All other men perished except for a few who escaped to high mountains. The mountains in Thessaly were parted, and all the world beyond the Isthmus and Peloponnese was overwhelmed. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha, after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. An older version of the story told by Hellanicus has Deucalion's "ark" landing on Mount Othrys in Thessaly. Another account has him landing on a peak, probably Phouka, in Argolis, later called Nemea. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus. Then, at the bidding of Zeus, he threw stones behind him, and they became men, and the stones Pyrrha threw became women. The Bibliotheca gives this as an etymology for Greek Laos "people" as derived from laas "stone".[7] The Megarians told that Megarus, son of Zeus and a Sithnid nymph, escaped Deucalion's flood by swimming to the top of Mount Gerania, guided by the cries of cranes.[8]

    I think that this transcends Indo Europeanism, You know like Noah and his...

    i would seriously like to know if there is because i missed it and its my job not to miss such things.


    6. what can i say?:rolleyes::o:):P


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    hi Ezra
    But similiarities explainable by common Indo-European cultural heritage should not be used to induce a migratory cultural exchange based on the premise inherent in this entire thread from your first post :

    did you actually read anything apart from the first post?

    Can you please let me know which of the similarities explainable by the common "indo european" ancestry did i talk about? and how many "indo european" peoples need to have the same cultural trait for it to be "indo european" and not local? 1, 2, 10? if only Irish and Serbians share some linguistic and cultural trait and no other European nation does is this Indo European cultural heritage?

    Here is a little bit about Slavic Dana:
    In Slavic mythology the Zorya (alternately, Zarya, Zory, Zore = "dawn"; Zvezda, Zwezda, Danica = "star") are the three (sometimes two) guardian goddesses, known as the Auroras. They guard and watch over the doomsday hound, Simargl, who is chained to the star Polaris in the constellation Ursa Minor, the "little bear". If the chain ever breaks, the hound will devour the constellation and the universe will end. The Zorya represent the Morning Star, Evening Star, and Midnight Star, respectively,[1] although the Midnight Star is sometimes omitted. As a trio, they are sometimes associated with the Triple Goddess mythic archetype, representing the maiden, mother and crone.
    The Zorya serve the sun god Dažbog, who in some myths is described as their father. Zorya Utrennyaya, the Morning Star, opens the gates to his palace every morning for the sun-chariot's departure. At dusk, Zorya Vechernyaya—the Evening Star—closes the palace gates once more after his return. Zorya Polunochnaya, the Midnight Star, holds the dying sun in her arms until he is restored to life the following morning. The three goddesses are also associated with marriage, protection, and exorcisms.
    The home of the Zorya was sometimes said to be on Bouyan (or Buyan), an oceanic island paradise where the Sun dwelt along with his attendants, the North, West and East winds.
    [2]
    ....
    In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya
    In Irish mythology, Brigit or Brighid ("exalted one"[1]) was the daughter of the Dagda and one of the Tuatha Dé Danann. She was the wife of Bres of the Fomorians, with whom she had a son, Ruadán.
    She had two sisters, also named Brighid, and is considered "a classic Celtic Triple Goddess".[

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighid
    Goibniu, Creidhne and Luchta are referred to as Trí Dé Dána ("three gods of craftsmanship"), and the Dagda's name is interpreted in medieval texts as "the good god."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann

    I already showed in one of my posts how Goibniu has root in Serbian word Kovina - metal which is unique to Serbian language.
    n Irish mythology, Credne (Old Irish) or Creidhne (Modern Irish – pronounced creynya) was a son of Brigid and Tuireann and the artificer of the Tuatha Dé Danann, working in bronze, brass and gold. He and his brothers Goibniu and Luchtaine were known as the Trí Dée Dána, the three gods of art, who forged the weapons which the Tuatha Dé used to battle the Fomorians.[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creidhne
    In Celtic religion and Irish mythology, Brigit or Brighid ("exalted one"[1]) is the daughter of the Dagda and one of the Tuatha Dé Danann. She was the wife of Bres of the Fomorians, with whom she had a son, Ruadán.

    She had two sisters, also named Brighid, and is considered "a classic Celtic Triple Goddess"
    The Dagda (Proto-Celtic: *Dagodeiwos, Old Irish: Dag Dia, Modern Irish: Daghdha) is an important god of Irish mythology. The Dagda is a father-figure (he is also known as Eochaid(h) Ollathair, or "All-father") and a protector of the tribe. In some texts his father is Elatha, in others his mother is Ethniu. Other texts say that his mother is Danu; while others yet place him as the father of Danu, perhaps due to her association with Brigit.
    ...
    His lover was Boann and his daughter was Breg.

    1) Brighid/Brigit/Breg is also known as Dana
    Zorya is also known as Dana

    2) Zorya = dawn, Dan = day in Slavic
    *bārego- (??) = dawn in proto-Celtic
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

    3) Zorya's home is Bouyan
    Brighid's mother is Boann

    4) Brighid is tripple godess
    Zorya is tripple goddess

    5) Zorya's father is Dajbog/Dažbog (bog = god)
    Brighid's father is Dagda (da = god)

    6) in some myths Zorya's husband = Perun
    in some myths Brighid's husband = Tuireann


    As for Dana being the goddess of water:
    *Deh2nu- 'River goddess' is reconstructed (Mallory & Adams 2006, p. 434) from Sanskrit Danu, Irish Danu; Welsh Dôn, and a masc. form Ossetic Donbettys. The name has been connected with the Dan rivers which run into the Black Sea (Dnieper, Dniester, Don, and Danube) and other river names in Celtic areas.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_religion

    Note that area around Dnieper, Dniester, Don and Danube is considered to be birth place of early Slavs... So who gave Don names to these rivers? Maybe the original "Indo Europeans" - R1a - Slavs?

    I think it is same goddess, as one of the forms of Zorya triple goddess is mother...

    And Zorya is related to river... river of healing
    In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya
    Zorica and DanicaThese names mean simply Dawn and Daystar, but in folklore accounts of all Slavic nations, they are often described as persons, or associated with persons, in pretty much the same way as Sun and Moon. Danica is often called Sun's younger sister or daughter, and was probably associated with Morana. Consequently, Zorica was either Sun's mother or older sister. It is quite possible this was a Slavic relic of the Proto-Indo-European dawn god.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaria_(goddess)

    What do you think?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    I have already written about negative meaning attached to word Tuatha in the Irish language and myth. If Tuatha are Tuatha Dé Danann then the triple goddess Dana (Brighid) was the tribal goddess of these people. At the same time, triple goddes Zorya (dawn in English) whose alternative name is Danica, Dana, could be the tribal goddess of Zoryani/Zeruiani/Sorians/Serians/Sorbs/Serbs????

    At the same time in ancient Greece, we have triple goddess Hecate (ancient Greek Ἑκάτη ) and somewhat similar tribal name for Akhaioí whose other name was the Danaans (ancient GreekΔαναοί).
    The Achaeans (Greek: Ἀχαιοί, Akhaioí) is one of the collective names used for the Greeks in Homer's Iliad (used 598 times) and Odyssey. The other names are the Danaans (Δαναοί, used 138 times in the Iliad) and Argives (Ἀργεῖοι, used 29 times in the Iliad).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer)

    Hecate has been characterized as a pre-Olympian chthonic goddess. She is a daughter of a Star goddess and is portrayed with with the sun or star rays around one of here three heads. She is a goddess off the night of stars and dawn. She is a torch bearer. She is commonly attended by a dog or dogs. She is a htonic

    Are Hecate, Zoria, Dana, Brighid one and the same?

    220px-Hecate_Chiaramonti_Inv1922.jpg

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate
    http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/HekateGoddess.html

    And if Dana is goddess of Danans, and Soria is goddess of Sorbs, and (H)ecate id goddess of Akhaioí (who are Danaans) and all these goddesses are all one and the same, then whose goddess id Brighid? Brigantes, Bregians, Phrygians? We have already seen how Brigantes, Bregians, Phrygians link Serbs and the Irish. Here we might have another link between the Serbs, the Tuatha Irish, the Phrygians (Brigantes) and the Doric Greeks who came from north west Balkans. Were all these people one and the same? Was Dana the old chthonic goddess of the Balkans?

    Here is an interesting article which talks about Slavic and Celtic triple goddesses and a peculiar Orthodox Christian icon called "The three armed Virgin".
    A particular type of icon, known in all oriental Christendom (orthodox world), shows the Holy Mother having three hands. On the most ancient copies, the third hand is in silver. The legend which accompanies this icon, of Serbian origin, could well be a relic of Celtic mythology in the Balkans. (My comment: Or Serbian, Phrygian (Tuatha de Danann) mythology)

    http://sms.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/13/SMS_13_16_Lajoye.pdf

    Couple of other things:

    Zorya's father is Dabog/Dažbog. Brighid's father is Dagda. Both Dabog and Dagda mean the god who gives.

    Slavic word for god "bog" comes from Proto-Indo-European *bʰago. The original root *bʰag appears to have referred to "eating, food, wealth", hence the provider of food and wealth, i.e. "god". Compare Old Church Slavonic ѹбогъ (ubogŭ, “poor”), богатъ (bogatŭ, “rich”).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Slavic/bog%D1%8A#Proto-Slavic

    I already wrote that we have the same word in Irish:

    Irish: bochd - poor, so Irish, Old Irish bocht;
    Serbian: ubog - u bog meaning in poverty poor

    So if Bog means "to give" or "the one who gives" then da-bog is doubling of "to give" literally "to give to give" or "the one who gives gives". Knowing this, Dagda could actually come from "da ga da" which means "to give it" or "god gives it".

    Speaking of Dabog - Dagda, one very interesting link exists between Serbia and Ireland which does not exist between any other "Indo European" peoples. In Serbia, Dabog has another name: hromi Daba, the wolf god, the master of the animals. In Ireland we have an ancient god called Crom Dubh. Crom Dubh is said to have been brought to Ireland by Fomorians (Pomorjani, south Baltic Serbs). If Dabog is Hromi Daba, is then Crom Dubh the same as Dagda? And if Crom Dubh is Dagda, are Fomorians and the Tuatha de Danann one and the same?

    I will talk about Crom Dubh and Hromi Daba in more detail later.

    In some myths Zorya's husband is Perun. In some myths Brighid's husband is Tuireann.

    Perun is the God whose weapon is thunder.. in fact, same god as Taranis and Thor....oak is also symbol of same deity
    In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing, and fertility.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor
    *Perkwunos, known as the "striker," is reconstructed[8] from Sanskrit Parjanya, Prussian Perkuns, Lithuanian Perkūnas, Latvian Pērkons, Slavic Perun and NorseFjörgyn. Fjörgyn was replaced by Thor among the Germanic speaking peoples. These gods give their names to Thursday, the fifth day of the week, throughcalqueing. The Celtic hammer god Sucellus is of the same character, but with an unrelated name.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_religion

    Question is could legend of deity Tuireann of tribe Tuatha Dé Danann have been of same origin as Taranis of later Celtic people...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuireann
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranis

    Zorya's home is Bouyan. Brighid's mother is Boann.
    The home of the Zorya was sometimes said to be on Bouyan (or Buyan), an oceanic island paradise where the Sun dwelt along with his attendants, the North, West and East winds.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya

    Boann or Boand (modern spelling: Bóinn) is the Irish mythology goddess of the River Boyne, a river in Leinster, Ireland. According to the
    Lebor Gabála Érenn she was the daughter of Delbáeth, son of Elada, of the Tuatha Dé Danann.[1] Her husband is variously Nechtan, Elcmar or Nuada. Her lover is the Dagda, by whom she had her son, Aengus. In order to hide their affair, the Dagda made the sun stand still for nine months; therefore, Aengus was conceived, gestated and born in one day.[2]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann

    Boann is paradise island in one mythology, and river in other can we explain it? River and island can be related... e.g. river Bojana (Albanian: Bunë or Buna ) starts its voyage from Skadar lake and goes into Adriatic sea...river Bojana on its entrance to Adriatic sea splits in two and creates island "ada Bojana"... however the island as it is now is believed to came into existence only in 17th century when two smaller islands were connected due to a boat sinking in area between them....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojana_(river)

    Boann is artifically made river
    As told in the metrical Dindshenchas,[3] Boann created the River Boyne. Though forbidden to by her husband, Nechtan, Boann approached the magical well of Segais (also known as the Well of Wisdom), which was surrounded by hazel trees. Nuts from the hazels were known to fall into the well, where they were eaten by the speckled salmon (who, along with hazel nuts, also embody and represent wisdom in Irish myth). Boann challenged the power of the well by walking around it counter-clockwise; this caused the waters to surge up violently and rush down to the sea, creating the River Boyne. In this catastrophe, she was swept along in the rushing waters, and lost an arm, leg and eye, and ultimately her life, in the flood. The poem equates her with famous rivers in other countries, including the Severn, Tiber, Jordan, Tigris and Euphrates.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann

    1) River Bojana flows out of Skadar lake to Adriatic sea river Boann flows out of magical well Segais to the sea

    2) In mythology river Boann was artificially created it is easy to conceive that river Bojana was as well artificially created by creating initial path from lake that is above sea level downwards...

    Could it be that these links are about mythology of a tribe who first lived in Balkan and than part of it moved to Ireland?

    What comes to my mind are Chelidoni and Bryges / Brigantes...both lived near lake Skadar and river Bojana..


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    I have to thank Ezra, because without him i would not have found God. Literally. :)

    I have spent last couple of days thinking about the link between the names of Dabog and Dagda.

    Dabog = da bog

    In Serbian, "da" means "yes", as in confirmation word, "to" as in "to be" "da bude" meaning "to happen", and "to give or gives"

    So Dabog = the god who gives, or the one who makes things happen

    In Serbian, every prayer or curse, (they are treated as the same in Serbia and are addressed to "bog" - god) starts with:

    Da bog da...

    This literally means: "may god give, may god make it happen..."

    In light of this, could Dagda actually be = da god da (???) where Slavic word "bog" from "da bog da" is replaced with "Germanic" word "god". Is this possible? Actually it seems that it is. Tuatha came from south Baltic from the land of Pomorjani, western Slavs, Sorbs. We have seen that western Slavic languages (now extinct) lie between today's central European Slavic and Germanic languages. Is it possible that bog and god were interchangeable and that they both mean god?

    Something made me go and check etymology of the word "god" and it seems no one really knows where it came from and what it's original root was. There are couple of conflicting etymological proposals but nothing really that would connect the word with its meaning. What is also interesting is that the translation of the bible into the "gothic" language was done in the balkans:
    The English word God continues the Old English God (guþ, gudis in Gothic, gud in modern Scandinavian, God in Dutch, and Gott in modern German), which is thought to derive from Proto-Germanic *ǥuđán.The Proto-Germanic meaning of *ǥuđán and its etymology is uncertain...The earliest uses of the word God in Germanic writing is often cited to be in the Gothic Bible or Wulfila Bible, which is the Christian Bible as translated by Wulfila (a.k.a. Bishop Ulfilas) into the Gothic language spoken by the Eastern Germanic, or Gothic Tribes. The oldest parts of the Gothic Bible, contained in the Codex Argenteus, is estimated to be from the fourth century. During the fourth century, the Goths were converted to Christianity, largely through the efforts of Bishop Ulfilas, who translated the Bible into the Gothic language in Nicopolis ad Istrum in today's northern Bulgaria. The words guda and guþ were used for God in the Gothic Bible....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_(word)
    Nicopolis ad Istrum (Greek: Νικόπολις η προς Ίστρον) was a Roman and Early Byzantine town founded by Emperor Trajan around 101–106, at the junction of the Iatrus (Yantra) and the Rositsa rivers, in memory of his victory over the Dacians. Its ruins are located at the village of Nikyup, 20 km north of Veliko Tarnovo in northern Bulgaria. The town reached its floruit during the reigns of Trajan, Hadrian, the Antonines and the Severan dynasty.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicopolis_ad_Istrum

    So we are back in the Balkans to look for the origin of the word "god" in the city built by Iberian Trajan.
    During the complex christianization of the Germanic tribes of Europe, there were many linguistic influences upon the Christian missionaries. One example post downfall of the western Roman Empire are the missionaries from Rome led by Augustine of Canterbury. Augustine's mission to the Saxons in southern Britain was conducted at a time when the city of Rome was a part of a Lombardic kingdom. The translated bibles which they brought on their mission were greatly influenced by the Germanic tribes they were in contact with, chief among them being the Lombards and Franks. The translation for the word deus of the Latin bible was influenced by the then current usage by the tribes for their highest deity, namely Wodan by Angles, Saxons and Franks of north-central and western Europe and Godan by the Lombards of south-central Europe around Rome. There are many instances where the name Godan and Wodan are contracted to God and Wod.[4] One instance is the wild hunt (a.k.a. Wodan's wild hunt) where Wod is used.[5][6]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_(word)

    So What is suggested is that Godan was a Longobardic main deity and that his name became the base for the word "god" meaning god. We have seen that latest archaeological evidence from Germany suggests that Longobards and Western polabian Slavs Obodrites were one and the same. Does then Longobardic Godan simply mean god-dan, god given, where "god" means god in Longobardic and "dan" means given in Serbian? But how can we mix "Germanic" god and Slavic dan? We can because god is a Serbian word which means god.

    In Serbian we have word god which means:

    1. A year
    2. a tree ring.
    3. Something that exists
    4. Something that happens
    5. good, just right
    6. time, moment
    7. big holy day in serbia
    8. names day,
    9. celebration of the saint protector of the family or clan day (slava),
    10. family or clan god


    Saint protectors of the family clans is a uniquely Serbian tradition. Serbs, believe that they descend from gods and celebrate gods as their ancestors. The main ancestor of the Serbs is Dabog, the sun god. In Serbian old religion, sun is a living being, which gets born and dies every year. If sun (dabog) was the main god of the Serbs, and he lived through one year cycles, then there is no surprise that a year in Serbian is called "god-ina", the life of god, the duration of god's life. And it is only logical that a tree ring that marks one life cycle of the sun god is called "god". The sun god, Dabog, later became god, bog of the Christianized Serbs in the Balkans.
    Apart from the main god ancestor of the people, every Serbian clan then had other lower level gods as their ancestors. Each clan had its own god ancestor celebrated on a particular astronomically and meteorological important day during the sun cycle. This is where god, meaning moment in time, a moment in Sun's life, became a word signifying a god, an aspect of the Sun manifested on that particular day in the sun's cycle. This is why each of these small gods was an aspect of Dabog, the sun god and a part of it. The saints protectors are just Christianised old small clan gods.

    Based on this root we have the following words:

    god = time, moment
    za-god-a = on time, at the right moment, when god intended
    god, god-ina = a year, a yearly cycle of the sun.
    god-ina = rain
    god-ina = weather, climate.
    god-ovati = to celebrate a god, originally probably to celebrate a god.
    god-ovnjak = someone who celebrates
    god, god-ovno, god-et = names day, slava, saint day, originally a celebration of a particular god
    pri-god-a = a special occasion, originally a celebration of a god
    pri-god-an = appropriate, worthy, originally probably related to offerings and ceremonies dedicated to a particular god.

    s-god-iti se = s-biti se = to happen. Serbian word s(a) means with. so "s god" means with god, to be aligned with god's will, with god's will, with god's help, because things only happen if god wants them to happen.
    u-god-iti = to make it happen, to make it good, to make it pleasing to god and people
    na-god-iti se = to agree, to make it happen because we agreed, to agree before god, to take oath.
    pri-god-iti = prepare, make happen. Serbian word "pri" has the same meaning as s(a): with, next to, aligned with. So "pri god" means with god, and "pri-god-iti" means to make it happen with god' help.

    do-god-iti se = to happen. This probably comes from "dao-god-iti se". Serbian word "dao" means "gave, allowed", so the meaning is literally god allowed it, god gave it.
    od-god-iti = prevent from happening, delay.
    god-iti = to cook, prepare food, to make, to be pleasant, to be agreeable

    po-god-iti = to hit the target, to guess. Serbian word "po" among other things means "based on, after", so the meaning is literally based on god's will, something that happens when god wants it, to guess god'd will
    po-god-an = suitable, good, following god's will.
    po-god-a = something good that happens, what happens when you follow god's will or when god wants it to happen.
    ne-po-god-a = something bad that happens, what happens when you do not fallow god's will, or when god does not want it to happen.
    po-god-ica = something that makes things easier, something given by god to make things easier
    s-god-a = something good that happens, something that happens as we expect it to happen, something that happens when you follow god's will or when god wants it to happen.
    ne-s-god-a = something bad that happens, something that doesn't happen as we expect it to happen, something that happens when you don't follow god's will or when god doesn't want it to happen.
    s-god-an = good, beautiful, good looking, pleasant, lucky, something that we get when we have god on our side.
    ne-s-god-an = bad, not beautiful, unpleasant, something that we get when we don't have god on our side.

    la-god-an = pleasant, easily obtained, easily made to happen from "lako god", something that god made easy with his help.
    pri-la-god-iti se = to adjust to circumstances. In Serbian "pri" means come closer, be close to, "lak" means easy, so the whole expression literally means get closer to god's will, to what god will give easily

    kako god = kako bilo = no matter how (it happens), which ever way god wants.
    sta god = sta bilo = what ever (happens), whatever god wants
    gde god = gde bilo = where ever (it happens), wherever god wants
    ko-god, kigodi, kegodi, kimgodi... = who ever, who ever god sends

    There is a saying: "bog godi pa sgodi", meanaing: god is, lives, makes and everything is made by him.

    This set of words completely describes a belief in omnipotent sun god, whose will needs to be guessed in order to insure that our enterprises are going to be successful. Everything good happens because god wants it and everything bad happens because god does not want it to happen.

    From this i will propose that the actual old Serbian word for a god was "god" and that there was only one "bog": the Sun god "dabog". So from here dabogda and dagodda are interchangeable and mean the same thing: god gives. This means that Dagda, Dagoda, Da god da means the same as Da bog da and that they are one and the same god.


    Hypatian Codex, is a 15th-century compilation of several much older documents from the Ipatiev Monastery in Russia. It contains a Slavic translation of an original Greek manuscript of John Malalas from the 6th century. The complete passage, reconstructed from several manuscripts, translates as follows:
    (Then) began his reign Feosta (Hephaestus), whom the Egyptians called Svarog … during his rule, from the heavens fell the smith’s prongs and weapons were forged for the first time; before that, (people) fought with clubs and stones. Feosta also commanded the women that they should have only a single husband… and that is why Egyptians called him Svarog… After him ruled his son, his name was the Sun, and they called him Dažbog… Sun tzar, son of Svarog, this is Dažbog (Dabog). In the Greek text, the names of gods are Hephaestus and Helios...

    Svarog is the galaxy, the milky way, the forger of stars. Dabog is Svarožić, a sun of Swarog, the Sun god, the giver of light, the rain, the life. But Svarožić is Svarog as it is a part of it and we are descendants of Dabog the Svarožić the son of Svarog and therefore we are descendants of Svarog himself.
    Hephaestus’s ugly appearance and lameness is taken by some to represent arsenicosis, an effect of low levels of arsenic exposure that would result in lameness and skin cancers. In place of less easily available tin, arsenic was added to copper in the Bronze Age to harden it; like the hatters, crazed by their exposure to mercury, who inspired Lewis Carroll's famous character of the Mad Hatter, most smiths of the Bronze Age would have suffered from chronic poisoning as a result of their livelihood. Consequently, the mythic image of the lame smith is widespread.[36]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus

    Dabog, Dazbog (Hromi Daba) was a god of the Sun, flame and rain. One of his names was Dazdbog, and “dazd” in many Slavic languages means rain (Slovak, Czech, Russian, Polish…). The rain was important because harvests depended upon it. In times of drought many rain invoking rituals were performed.

    http://www.starisloveni.com/English/Dazbog.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog


    This is what Irish legend says about Crom Dubh:
    For that reason they could not put trust in any person beyond Crom Dubh, because they thought, bad as he was, that it was he who was giving them the light of the day, the darkness of the night, and the change of seasons. It was well, brother of my heart.

    http://empoweringminds.spd.dcu.ie/documents/serve-version?id=131


    In Serbian word for lame is "hrom". I believe that "hromi Daba", the other secret name for Dabog in Serbian mythology was originally "hromi Dabog", meaning lame all giving god. Did this god represent an aspect of Dabog or Svarog or Both Svarog and Dabog as one i don't know. This is still a mystery to me, and I would love someone to help me to figgure this one out. But what I am pretty sure about is that the Irish main pre-Christian god, "Crom Dubh", is actually "Hromi Daba" or more precisely "Hromi Dabog", the Sun god, the father of the Serbs and probably (some of) the Irish too. :)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    This might be of interest.

    263037.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭Kicking Bird


    slowburner wrote: »
    This might be of interest.

    263037.jpg

    Slowburner's map is quite interesting - The Albanian word for "word" - "fjale",is the closest I can see to our own "focal"(Scots Gaelic aside).I decided to delve deeper and found the following on Youtube:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCq3FGPAJTs

    I think what this shows clearly,and ezra_pound's earlier posts have highlighted this already,that if you take any two European countries and compare their languages and cultures you're going to find close,and often times very close similarities.

    I'm not however taking anything away from the amazing research dublinviking has done to date and look forward to reading more in the hope I can be convinced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    slowburner thank you very much for your map. As you can see there is a marked distinction between the south Slavs and the East slavs. But guess what. A word for speach in Serbian is go-vor but also veda (remember rig veda) and beseda. go-vor-iti, veda-ti and besediti all mean to talk to tell tales to speak. The word "govor" comes from go + vor. "vor" (i believe) means "a sound with (which carries) a meaning". go is a very old word which means directing, moving in a particular direction. so go-vor (speech) means sounds with meaning directed at someone. go as a word is preserved in Serbian in words like goniti - to usher, to move in certain direction, to escort...

    If we look at etymology of the word "word" we find that it does not have a root.
    From Middle English word, from Old English word (“word, speech, sentence, statement, command, order, subject of talk, story, news, report, fame, promise, verb”), from Proto-Germanic *wurdą (“word”), from Proto-Indo-European *werdʰo- (“word”). Cognate with Scots word (“word”), West Frisian wurd (“word”), Dutch woord (“word”), German Wort (“word”), Danish, Norwegian and Swedish ord (“word”), Icelandic orð (“word”), Latin verbum (“word”), Lithuanian vardas (“name”), Albanian urtë (“sage, wise, silent”). Etymological twin of verb.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word

    It also seems that the word is a past participle based on the meanings: "word, speech, sentence, statement, command, order, subject of talk, story, news, report, fame, promise, verb". Maybe the root is "vor" or "wor" meaning "sound with (which carries) a meaning" (v and w are interchangeable in slavic languages) and word or vord is finished sound with a meaning, completed sound with a meaning, word. govor is process of making sounds with a meaning and directing those sounds at others. vord is the finished product. What do you think?

    How do we explain this? As i said before I believe that serbs were slavicised. Book of Veles talks about mixing of Scythians and the people of the god Dabog. To me this is fascinating.

    kicking bird
    I think what this shows clearly,and ezra_pound's earlier posts have highlighted this already,that if you take any two European countries and compare their languages and cultures you're going to find close,and often times very close similarities.

    The map actually show exactly the opposite. It shows clear regional cultural differences and similarities. Except when you look at the Irish and the Balkans where things are not as they should be. As you say the Irish and Albanians are connected. Why? South Slavs are completely different from the rest of Slavs, but as i have shown they are close to Germanics. Why? I am talking about exactly these exceptions to the rules. The things that don't fit. They point to overlooked or deep burred connections.
    if you take any two European countries and compare their languages and cultures you're going to find close,and often times very close similarities.

    This is attitude which stops research. Of course you can find similarities between any two European nations. Cultural exchange is one of the ways. Coke, TV, Mobile....Christianity another.

    But isn't it interesting to find the proper root for the word "god" in South Slavic languages of all languages? How the hell is this possible? Why don't we find something like this in any Germanic language? Maybe we do but i am not aware of it. We certainly don't find it in Slavic languages. We find isolated words from the "god" word cluster but the whole cluster that describes a sun god we find only in South Slavic languages. If Serbian only had God and not all the other god words that would be a similarity. This is something else. By the way, do you remember the book "the origin of anglo saxon race" which i spoke about earlier? Slavic languages were one of the building blocks of that language, because baltic slavs, obodrites, sorbs were part of anglo saxon federation. they were also part of of viking federations. in germany and scandinavia they were building bloc of german, danish, norse nations and languages. so no wander we have word "god" in all these countries and no wander we have word "word" there as well.
    Slowburner's map is quite interesting - The Albanian word for "word" - "fjale",is the closest I can see to our own "focal"(Scots Gaelic aside).

    you might be right about Gaelic - Albanian connection. When i came to Ireland first and i heard Gaelic being spoken it reminded me straight away to Albanian. Also there is a certain racial subgroup in Ireland that looks like certain Albanian racial subgroups.

    But, both the Irish and the Albanians are mix of various races as genetic research is showing us. Also both Gaelic and Albanian are mixed languages. So part of Gaelic language and culture does have similarities and overlaps with parts of Albanian language and culture. Albania lies in what used to be Illyrian land and are culturally part of the Balkan cultures which take root from Vinca and earlier cultures. Even today Albania is not a ethnically homogeneous place despite all the efforts to make it a such place through intensive Albanisation of non Albanian population which has been taking place since Turkish times in Albania and Kosovo and which is well documented. Albanian as a language is very new late medieval invention. You will not find any old Albanian texts, because the language did not exist. What existed were many local languages and dialects which were artificially fused into Albanian language. Similar to Italian language which was created by Dante.
    Most Northern Albanians are ethnically the same as Montenegrian and Serbs and can trace their roots to old medieval mountain tribes. The southern Albanians were brought to Europe from Caucasus by eastern roman emperors during one of many civil wars as mercenary troops. They were first settled in Sicily and then came to Balkans. So Sicilians and Albanians are related as well. Remember when we were talking about volga trading route, the Caucasus Iberia...? Maybe this is where you should look for Albanian Gaelic connections...

    I don't want to go deeper into it, as i am not personally interested in it, but i will be glad to point you to resources.
    I'm not however taking anything away from the amazing research dublinviking has done to date and look forward to reading more in the hope I can be convinced.

    Thank you very much on your compliment. I am glad you are continuing to read. And thank you for talking and not fighting. Most of the time i am talking to myself. And i already know all my jokes, so it's pretty boring. :)

    By the way for all your information i have invited here all the history, archaeology and linguistics professors from all Irish, Brittish, major US, German, Balkan universities, and asked them to comment. The response is overwhelming. :)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    What is the racial sub group shared by Ireland and Albania?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Ipso wrote: »
    What is the racial sub group shared by Ireland and Albania?

    We both derive three word for 'word' from the Latin 'vocalis'. Rather than the indo European for word.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Ipso wrote: »
    What is the racial sub group shared by Ireland and Albania?

    We both derive the word for 'word' from the Latin 'vocalis'. Rather than the indo European for word.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    We both derive the word for 'word' from the Latin 'vocalis'. Rather than the indo European for word.

    Notwithstanding the vinca influence of course!


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    What is the racial sub group shared by Ireland and Albania?

    Difficult to explain. You find the same type in the rest of Balkans and a lot in Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia. Sharp facial features, pale skin, wavy mostly dark hair, light color eyes. A sub type of Dinaric, Noric sub type i believe. Ireland is full of people like this.

    l.jpg
    l.jpg
    l.jpg
    l.jpg
    gezim-visoka.jpg?w=470
    refugees1.jpg?version=1&modificationDate=1234196418000
    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBLHDzSU1vlZ3Td81kZdNuc2tGyQtbTQ672ELn6GZubnRbLXzT
    KLA.jpg
    uck.jpg
    kla-060112.jpg

    This would be more typical dinaric north albanian, serbian type:

    30c3tq1.jpg
    15qemwm.jpg
    esrb5h.jpg
    2mmizj7.jpg
    vwqw6p.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    We both derive the word for 'word' from the Latin 'vocalis'. Rather than the indo European for word.
    Notwithstanding the vinca influence of course!

    :)

    funny. what is "indo european" root for "word"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    :)

    funny. what is "indo european" root for "word"?

    Werdho
    http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/word

    Etymology

    From Middle English word, from Old Englishword (“word, speech, sentence, statement, command, order, subject of talk, story, news, report, fame, promise, verb”), fromProto-Germanic *wurdą (“word”), fromProto-Indo-European *werdʰo- (“word”). Cognate with Scots word (“word”), West Frisian wurd (“word”), Dutchwoord (“word”), German Wort (“word”),Danish, Norwegian and Swedishord (“word”), Icelandic orð (“word”), Latinverbum (“word”), Lithuanianvardas (“name”), Albanian urtë (“sage, wise, silent”). Etymological twin of verb.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    again you are not actually reading other people's posts. you are skimming. did't you see that i quoted the exact same etymology?

    What about all the other european words for "word"? are they "martians"? particularly the most genetically "indo european" europeans like slavs who use "slovo"? Numerically, more people in Europe don't use "word" or its cognates as word for "word". And isn't is strange that only Germanic people (+ south slavic) and people who used to have big western slavic communities use "wor(d)" to mark sounds with meaning?

    I asked you that before: how many peoples have to share a certain characteristic to label it "indo european"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    again you are not actually reading other people's posts. you are skimming.
    what about all the other european words for "word"? are they "martians"? particularly the most genetically "indo european" europeans like slavs who use "slovo"? Numerically, more people in Europe don't use "word" or its cognates as word for "word". And isn't is strange that only Germanic people (+ south slavic) and people who used to have big western slavic communities use "wor(d)" to mark sounds with meaning?

    I asked you that before: how many peoples have to share a certain characteristic to label it "indo european"?

    The proto Indo European word for word is werdho. That's what makes the word word an Indo European word.

    Word?

    The Irish word focal comes from the Latin word vox which is also an Indo European word: wek for voice.

    Etymology

    From Middle English vois, from Anglo-Norman voiz, voys, voice, Old French vois,voiz (Modern French voix), from Latinvōcem, accusative form of Latinvōx (“voice”), from Proto-Indo-European*wek-, *wekʷ-, *wokʷ- (“to utter, speak”).Cognate with Sanskrit वच् (“to say, speak”), German erwähnen (“to mention”). Displaced native Middle Englishsteven (“voice”), from Old English stefn (seesteven), Middle English rouste (“voice”)from Old Norse raust, and Middle Englishrearde (“voice”) from Old English reord. Compare advocate, advowson, avouch,convoke, epic, vocal, vouch, vowel.

    Pronunciation


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    The proto Indo European word for word is werdho. That's what makes the word word an Indo European word.

    Are you serious? Is there somewhere 5000 year old Indo European dictionary that contains "werdho"? Or Indo European tribe that still speaks indo european language and that uses "werdho" in everyday speech?

    Indo european is non existent fictional presumed imagined language. it is reconstructed from existing languages from eurasia. the same goes for proto germanic.

    You do know that do you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Are you serious? Is there somewhere 5000 year old Indo European dictionary that contains "werdho"? Or Indo European tribe that still speaks indo european language and that uses "werdho" in everyday speech?

    Indo european is non existent fictional presumed imagined language. it is reconstructed from existing languages from eurasia.

    You do know that do you?


    It is not fictional. It is not imagined. It us reconstructed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Are you serious? Is there somewhere 5000 year old Indo European dictionary that contains "werdho"? Or Indo European tribe that still speaks indo european language and that uses "werdho" in everyday speech?

    Indo european is non existent fictional presumed imagined language. it is reconstructed from existing languages from eurasia. the same goes for proto germanic.

    You do know that do you?

    I'm just quoting an etymological dictionary entry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    It is not fictional. It is not imagined. It us reconstructed.

    well...what can i say. some people somewhere sat down, took only germanic words for "word" and called that word indo european word for word, ignoring all other eurasian languages. funny that.
    I'm just quoting an etymological dictionary entry.

    i know. if you thought about it for one second, you would see that it doesn't make sense. why not use slovo as indo european for word? After all eastern and central european slavs use slovo for word and they are genetically most indo european of all europeans (R1a)? But no. Here is what slovo means in "indo european":
    From Proto-Slavic *slovo (“word”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱléwos (“fame”).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/slovo

    funny? Do you still believe in indo european?

    i don't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/werd%CA%B0o-#Proto-Indo-European

    Noun

    *werdʰo- nword

    Descendants

    Albanian: urtëAnatolian:Hittite: ueriaBaltic:Latvian: vārdsLithuanian: var̃dasOld Prussian: wirdsGermanic: *wurdą (from the zero-grade*wṛdʰo-[2]) (click for additional descendants)English: wordDutch: woordGerman: WortIcelandic: orðIndo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Sanskrit: व्रत (vrata)Iranian:Avestan: ð¬Žð¬­ð¬¬ð¬ð¬™ð¬€ (urvāta)Italic:Latin: verbumFrench: verbeItalian: verboPortuguese: verboSpanish: verboUmbrian: uerfalem

    References

    ^ “Wort” in: Friedrich Kluge, 


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    hhttp://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:slovottp://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:slovo
    well...what can i say. some people somewhere sat down, took only germanic words for "word" and called that word indo european word for word, ignoring all other eurasian languages. funny that.



    i know. if you thought about it for one second, you would see that it doesn't make sense. why not use slovo as indo european for word? After all eastern and central european slavs use slovo for word and they are genetically most indo european of all europeans (R1a)? But no. Here is what slovo means in "indo european":



    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/slovo

    funny? Do you still believe in indo european?

    i don't.
    http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:slovo


    Fame is something that is spoken about. Words are that which is spoken.

    The word Sluch is still used in Czech to mean fame.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Are you serious? Is there somewhere 5000 year old Indo European dictionary that contains "werdho"? Or Indo European tribe that still speaks indo european language and that uses "werdho" in everyday speech?

    Indo european is non existent fictional presumed imagined language. it is reconstructed from existing languages from eurasia. the same goes for proto germanic.

    You do know that do you?

    I'm not the one who is claiming that because Irish and Albanian HAS a similar word for 'word', one can assume that we have a shared heritage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    ezra

    thank you. Now it is my turn to slap myself because i did not read things properly and i just reacted.

    But this is very, very interesting. The word "word" again seems to be spreading from the balkans. Anadolian (hittite) is very interesting because it is probably the link into indo iranian. Latest archaeological data points to spread of culture from hittite, sumeran to indian and even to sumeran kings ruling over india. Latin probably again takes it from the balkans and carries it into italic languages. germanic and baltic were mixed with west slavic for a long time so there is a direct link there as well.

    again this actually just confirms what i said originally about the word "word". it is specific to connected peoples and it is not indo european wide. it seem that it is completely absent in most indo european of all poples, slavs. Why would they replace "word" with slovo? slovo in serbian meant letter. but sloviti means to talk. so maybe this word is not indo european at all, but could be pre indo european? Or local deverlopment spreading from Balkans? or slavs are not indo europeans? What about all the other indo european languages? Is this word attested anywhere in Caucasus?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indo-European_languages


    Not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, but it is a question that needs answering.

    word is one of the most basic terms. shouldn't we see some wider similarity to call "werdʰo" indo european??

    I will leave it at that. until i learn more about it, if you agree :)
    I'm not the one who is claiming that because Irish and Albanian HAS a similar word for 'word', one can assume that we have a shared heritage.

    neither am i. I am just saying that the languages on first listening and people facially look similar. this is where my comparison ends. I have learned a lot about the Irish language since then otherwise i would not be writing what i am writing here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    hhttp://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:slovottp://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:slovo
    http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:slovo


    Fame is something that is spoken about. Words are that which is spoken.

    The word Sluch is still used in Czech to mean fame.

    Think of the irish expression clu agus cail for 'fame' and the words cluas and clois for ear and Hear respectively.

    ... Coming from lew in proto Indo European.

    Actually... Coming from klew in pie


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Think of the irish expression clu agus cail for 'fame' and the words cluas and clois for ear and Hear respectively.

    Serbian expression: "biti na dobrom glasu", literally means "to be heard of in good terms" is one of serbian expressions for being famous, to be known in positive terms.

    what do you think of this?

    glasati - to vote, to give someones voice for someone, go give a good word
    oglasiti se - to make a sound which can be heard
    glasovit - famous
    glas - voice, what can be heard, news
    glasan - loud, what can be heard loudly....

    cluas and clois? glas?

    but these are things you hear, not things you utter. there is a difference.
    The word Sluch is still used in Czech to mean fame.

    In Serbian:

    sluh - hearing
    slusati - to hear


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    ezra



    thank you. Now it is my turn to slap myself because i did not read things properly and i just reacted.

    But this is very, very interesting. The word "word" again seems to be spreading from the balkans. Anadolian (hittite) is very interesting because it is probably the link into indo iranian. Latest archaeological data points to spread of culture from hittite, sumeran to indian and even to sumeran kings ruling over india. Latin probably again takes it from the balkans and carries it into italic languages. germanic and baltic were mixed with west slavic for a long time so there is a direct link there as well.

    again this actually just confirms what i said originally about the word "word". it is specific to connected peoples and it is not indo european wide. it seem that it is completely absent in most indo european of all poples, slavs. Why would they replace "word" with slovo? slovo in serbian meant letter. but sloviti means to talk. so maybe this word is not indo european at all, but could be pre indo european? Or local deverlopment spreading from Balkans? or slavs are not indo europeans? What about all the other indo european languages? Is this word attested anywhere in Caucasus?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indo-European_languages


    Not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, but it is a question that needs answering.

    word is one of the most basic terms. shouldn't we see some wider similarity to call "werdʰo" indo european??

    I will leave it at that. until i learn more about it, if you agree :)



    neither am i. I am just saying that the languages on first listening and people facially look similar. this is where my comparison ends. I have learned a lot about the Irish language since then otherwise i would not be writing what i am writing here.


    The most basic and common words are the ones that change the most and the fastest.
    Think of the Irish irregular verbs: come, go, take, give, see, look etc.

    Also think French verbs., go, come, have, be etc.

    Don't know what you mean about Slavic being most indoeuropean language group. I think that's your personal opinion.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    The most basic and common words are the ones that change the most and the fastest.

    can you explain this to me please. if words are used for communication, then most common words would be the longest lasting, because they are most used? i don't get the logic? not being a pain, just don't understand. If they do change the easiest as you say, that can be only because new ones were introduced from outside. people don't just wake up one morning and say: "from today i will call a chair a door"...it would cause chaos...
    Don't know what you mean about Slavic being most indoeuropean language group. I think that's your personal opinion.

    Most indo european genetic group (r1a)

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

    not my opinion, accepted genetic science opinion. so we have a mismatch between genes and languages....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Serbian expression: "biti na dobrom glasu", literally means "to be heard of in good terms" is one of serbian expressions for being famous, to be known in positive terms.

    what do you think of this?

    glasati - to vote, to give someones voice for someone, go give a good word
    oglasiti se - to make a sound which can be heard
    glasovit - famous
    glas - voice, what can be heard, news
    glasan - loud, what can be heard loudly....

    cluas and clois? glas?

    but these are things you hear, not things you utter. there is a difference.

    I can HEAR AND UTTER words.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Yes. It is interesting that neither Celtic languages nor have words derived from werdo.

    The use of the word briathar from brí in Irish is interesting but that would be going off topic...


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    I can HEAR AND UTTER words.

    ???

    govoriti means to speak, go vor = words (sounds with meaning) go out :)
    glas is what we hear, not what we speak. the fact that we can hear what we speak does not make it the same.
    Yes. It is interesting that neither Celtic languages nor have words derived from werdo.

    exactly. strange and true. and we should not stop thinking why and how. there is a clear division here and it would be cool to find when and how it happened. but at the moment i really have nothing else to add to this...sorry. talk tomorrow.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Here's a bit of info on the words Klew, Klewos, Werdo, andgʷer(h₂) to clarify on what I was saying earlier

    1 Klew, the verb to hear

    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/ḱlew-

    A K at the beginning of a word in PIE turns to an S in Slavonic and a C or K sound in Irish

    So That's Slew in Slavonic and Clew in Irish for the word to hear,

    Also Ws turn to Vs in Slavonic and either stay as W, dissapear or turn to Fs in Irish

    So that would be :

    Slavonic

    Slev


    Old Irish

    Clew, or Cle, or Clef

    ***

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/-os

    The suffix -os can either :Create action nouns or result nouns from verbs.
    Or
    Create nouns from verb stems denoting the performance or action of that verb.

    So Klewos is the result noun of Klew, in other words it is that which is heard, in other words that which is spoken.
    - fame

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1l%C3%A9wos#Proto-Indo-European

    You can clearly see how Klewos would become SLevos and how this could easily mean 'words' , that which is heard.

    ***

    What is less easily explained is how in Irish Klewos becomes as in 'Clú agus Cáil' while Klew becomes Clois

    I'm sure a specialist could explain it.

    ***

    So that explains where the Slavonic Slovo comes from
    ****


    THe Irish word for word 'Briathar' comes from the word brí and literally means 'thing of meaning'.

    ***

    Brí meaning 'meaning' or strength comes for the PIE *gʷrī-g-, the suffixed extended form of Proto-Indo-European *gʷer(h₂)- (“heavy”)

    A gw in PIE turns to a B in Celtic.

    Of course it can also be turned to an M or a W depending on the Uru rules etc.

    So brí is meaning. and Briathar is a thing of meaning which is a word.

    ***

    It appears that all other Indo European Languages use the word 'werdo' for word.

    ***

    In summary

    Words can be uttered, heard and endowed with meaning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    can you explain this to me please. if words are used for communication, then most common words would be the longest lasting, because they are most used? i don't get the logic? not being a pain, just don't understand. If they do change the easiest as you say, that can be only because new ones were introduced from outside. people don't just wake up one morning and say: "from today i will call a chair a door"...it would cause chaos...


    I'd love to give a really good answer but I can't.

    Think about the verb to go.

    We basically merge two verbs together, go and wend.

    I go but I went etc, You're not going to do that with a rare verb like 'transcend'

    Think about howun likely it is to change the word simile, or technological.

    And then think of Dublin people saying 'I been' 'I seen' etc.

    Think about slang. There's obviously more slang related to more common words.

    I can't give a really good answer but it is an empirical fact. Just look at any irregular verbs in any language!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    This is interesting material but I am beginning to think it might be better suited to the Linguistics & Etymology forum.
    Any objections to moving the thread there?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    This is interesting material but I am beginning to think it might be better suited to the Linguistics & Etymology forum.
    Any objections to moving the thread there?

    hundreds of people are following the thread. they will all lose it if we move it, so can we please leave it hear. The linguistic part is just a part of it. i am trying to include relevant and related historical and archaeological data as well as you can only understand the language if you look how it relates to life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    ezra

    thank you for your answer about why most used words change most quickly. slang is good example of language evolution, but you don't have slang without a group which uses it and which creates slang to differentiate itself form others. i read somewhere about a theory which says that languages were invented to that certain groups could communicate in secret. this all works for small groups and could explain early language development. however large groups of people with established culture can only be forced to change their language by other powerful groups and even then it is not guaranteed that they will succeed. look at the irish and the balkan slavs. hundreds of years of submission under foreign rule and language survived. The Balkans is even better example, because we have the same people divided between 3 cultures and religions and 3 ruling languages. As a consequence they ended up fighting each other in numerous wars, yet they still speak the same language. Sure some foreign words entered the language but the core is exactly the same as it was 1000 and probably 5000 years ago.

    But we do have examples where replacement of language worked. in hungary and romania they managed to replace slavic language with respective hungarian and romanian in last few hundred years using repression and forcing the change of culture and language. there slavic culture remained in traces and we have situation where majority slavic genetic population doesn't speak slavic languages any more. and the same can happen to the irish unfortunately.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    hundreds of people are following the thread. they will all lose it if we move it, so can we please leave it hear. The linguistic part is just a part of it. i am trying to include relevant and related historical and archaeological data as well as you can only understand the language if you look how it relates to life.
    I understand your concerns, but if the thread is moved it carries all the information with it, including notifications - it stays intact. Nobody will lose it. All information is redirected seamlessly.
    You would very likely get considerably more feedback in the Anthropology, Sociology and Culture forum.

    I'll leave it here for the time being.
    Anyone else have an opinion?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    ezra

    thank you very much for putting an effort into this. and thank slowburner for sparking this conversation which is turning to be very important.

    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/ḱlew-

    Klew, the verb to hear

    A K at the beginning of a word in PIE turns to an S in Slavonic and a C or K sound in Irish
    So That's Slew in Slavonic and Clew in Irish for the word to hear,

    What are we then to do with this Serbian word:

    gluv = def

    i believe that this was originally word for to hear which then became sluv, sluh.

    so originally we had: gluvati = to listen which then evolved into sluvati and then slusati. the original word gluv was retained to mean def but also in the word "oglusiti se" which means to ignore what you hear.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...o-European/-os

    The suffix -os can either :Create action nouns or result nouns from verbs or Create nouns from verb stems denoting the performance or action of that verb.

    So Klewos is the result noun of Klew, in other words it is that which is heard, in other words that which is spoken - fame. You can clearly see how Klewos would become SLevos and how this could easily mean 'words' , that which is heard.

    you are right. klewos comes from klew. But what we hear are sounds, voices not necessarily words. They only later became words. So i believe that klew, klewos is older than word, werd.


    kgh are interchangeable vowels produced in the same part of the throat.

    glasati - to vote, to give someones voice for someone, go give a good word
    oglasiti se - to make a sound which can be heard
    glasovit - famous
    glas - voice, what can be heard, news (klewos - glewos - gleos - glas)
    glasan - loud, what can be heard loudly....
    na glasu - famous

    These slavic words actually have a direct meaning connected with hearing of a sound, of voice. But we also have these words:

    glava - head, glavni - top, main
    slava - fame

    Slovo in Serbian means letter, sign but it can also mean written word, text. Maybe you are right that we can get klewos - glewos - slovo. But maybe it is just a later language development which equated word with written word.

    Now that we have established links between hearing, sounds, voices here is an interesting cluster from irish:

    comh (pronounced kow, kov) - mutual, joint, common, fellow, equal, close, near, full

    Here is an equivalent latin word:

    con - with, together

    Now the next is irish word comhar (pronounced kowar, kovar) which means combined work, mutual assistance. comh + mhar = together words.

    Now if we want to be together and work together we need to communicate. And here we need words, speech. So people first invented comhairc (pronounced kowark, kovark) meaning signal, warning, outcry and comhartha (pronounced kowara, kovara) meaning sign, mark, symbol, signal, indication, omen. So people were able to do comhairle (pronounced kowarle, kovarle) meaning to give advice, councel, direction, influence. Very soon people had comhra (pronounced kowra, kovra) meaning conversation.

    now in Serbian and other Slavic languages we have word govor which means speach, conversation. govoriti means to talk.

    comhairc, comhartha, comhairle, comhra - govor, humans making sounds with meaning, making words, communicating.

    gov + vor, var, vra = group of people + words = conversation, communication, cooperation, culture

    gov vor (serbian) = comh mhairc (irish) = converso (latin)

    I believe that these words actually came from a very old layer of european language and that they have entered latin from the balkans at the time when irish and serbs lived there together. The irish has much deeper and proper meaning associated with it's words than latin.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/conversation
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/conversatio#Latin
    I turn around or over
    I ponder
    I consort or associate with
    I abide or dwell

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/converso#Latin


    Not really what you would expect from conversation.

    So again we have a match between the Irish and Slavic languages.
    Brí meaning 'meaning' or strength comes for the PIE *gʷrī-g-, the suffixed extended form of Proto-Indo-European *gʷer(h₂)- (“heavy”)
    So brí is meaning. and Briathar is a thing of meaning which is a word.

    In Serbian there is a word priča (pronounced pritcha) meaning story. pričati (pronounced pritchati) means to talk. there is also a word pridev = pri + dav = meaning adjective, something that adds meaning. "pri" also has other meanings: before, towards, next to, with which all point to or are associated with something, give meaning to something.

    MacBain's Dictionary has this:
    briot, briotal - chit-chat, Irish ++briot, chatter, briotach, a stammerer: br@.t-t-, br@.-t, root bar, ber, as in Latin barbarus, Greek @Gbá;rbaros, berberízu, I stammer. The reference of briot to the name Breatnaich or Briotons as foreigners and stammerers is scarcely happy.
    othail , odhail - confusion, hubbub, also (Dial., where pronounced ow-il), rejoicing; spelt also foghail, fòghail; root gal, as in gal? For odhail, rejoicing, cf. Middle Irish odhach, ceolmar, also uidheach, od, music; root ved; Greek @Gú;déo, sing, praise, Sanskrit vadati, sing, praise; Lithuanian vadinu, rufe, root ved, vad, ud, rufen.
    od - yonder, yon; See ud.

    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/index.html

    In serbian word ot, otal, od, odal mean from, from something, from here, away, yonder

    So briot, briotal, bri + otal = far away from meaning, with no meaning

    Why and how does Irish have so many similarities with Serbian and other Slavic languages? Aren't they supposed to belong to completely different indo european language families?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    gov vor (serbian) = comh mhairc (irish) = converso (latin)


    Converso is latin and means to turn around. It is only in French that it came to mean conversation.

    Comh mhairc, while meaning a communication literally means riding together on horseback.

    A closer latin equivalent of govor would be confabulatiare, telling a story together.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Moved from the Archaeology forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Hi all. It has been a long time. I hope you are all well. We are in the middle of the dog days and god Lugh has granted us rain, which supposed to be a good omen. :)

    Do you remember the discussion entitled: "Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears" and the strange connection between the Laigin, Longobards, Serbs, Hittites and the story about the king with horse's or goat's long ears?

    What is interesting is that god lugh was also described with long ears:
    This god (Lugus) is shown together with birds; horses; the Oriental Tree of Life motif; dogs or wolves; and twin serpents. But the imagery most intimately connected to him is the mistletoe leaf or berry. Most often the mistletoe leaves are shown at either side of his head, like horns or ears; but sometimes the symbolism is reversed, and the god's head appears as the berry of a mistletoe plant.

    http://www.mythicalireland.com/mythology/tuathade/lugus.html

    Here are some pictures of Lugus with big ears:

    859_49883119257_3501_n.jpg

    524269_10151136229444258_547965574_n.jpg

    426918_10150713229489258_383915233_n.jpg

    Are long ears mistletoe leaves or actual ears or horns? But it is very interesting to find that Lugh, who was descendant of both P(F)omorians and Tuatha Dé Danann was known as a spear-man as well.
    The first recension of Lebor Gabála describes the Tuatha Dé Danann as having resided in "the northern islands of the world", where they were instructed in the magic arts, before finally moving in dark clouds to Connaught in Ireland. It mentions only the Lia Fáil as having been imported from across the sea.[3]
    One of the recensions of Lebar Gabála, Cath Maige Tuired and a separate text elaborate on these events. CMT and LG tell that there were four cities located on the northern islands of the world (i n-insib tūascertachaib in domain), called Falias, Gorias, Findias and Murias.[4] "The Four Jewels" also refers to the cities, but appears to locate them at Lochlann and contends that the Tuatha Dé crossed the seas in their fleet rather than in a mist. The Tuatha Dé Danann — described as the offspring of Béothach son of Iarbonel — landed here to be instructed in the magic arts, embracing druidry (druidecht), knowledge (fis), prophecy (fáitsine) and skill in magic (amainsecht). Each island is said to have had its poet (fili) who was skilled in occult arts.[5]
    When the Tuatha Dé migrated to Ireland, they are said to have brought four magical instruments from these cities:

    Falias: Stone of Fál (Lia Fáil) It would cry out beneath the king who took the sovereignty of Ireland. It was supposedly located near the Hill of Tara in County Meath.
    Goirias or Gorias: Spear (sleg) of Lug No battle was ever sustained against it, or against the man who held it.
    Findias: Sword (claideb/claiomh solais) which belonged to Núadu No one ever escaped from it once it was drawn from its sheath, and no one could resist it. The sword is also described in the Tain legend as 'Nuadu's Cainnel' - a glowing bright torch[citation needed].
    Muirias or Murias: Cauldron (coire) of the Dagda. No company ever went away from it unsatisfied.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Treasures_of_the_Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann

    What is more it seems that the spear have survived the demise of Lugh and has been found in hands of some very interesting characters:
    In the Ulster Cycle of early Irish literature, the Lúin of Celtchar (Irish: Lúin Celtchair) is the name of a long, fiery lance or spear belonging to Celtchar mac Uthechar and wielded by other heroes, such as Dubthach, Mac Cécht and Fedlimid.

    Arthur C. L. Brown and R. S. Loomis, proponents of the Irish origin of the Grail romances, argued that Celtchar's Lúin was to be identified with the spear of Lug,[11] a weapon which is named in Middle Irish narratives as one of the four items which the Túatha Dé Danann introduced to Ireland. A connection may have been drawn implicitly by Togail Bruidne Dá Derga, which claims that the Lúin was found in the Battle of Mag Tuired, elsewhere known as the battle in which the Túatha Dé Danann led by Lug defeated the Fomoiri. Moreover, a tale of later date, the Early Modern Irish Oidheadh Chloinne Tuireann describes the spear of Lug in ways which are reminiscent of Celtchair's Lúin. However, the Middle Irish references to Lug's spear do not correspond closely to the Lúin.[12]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BAin_of_Celtchar

    So both Pomorijans and Tuatha came from the north west from across the sea. And Lugh who descended from both, had long ears and long spear. But this is not all that connects Pomorijans, Tuatha and Laigin:
    Dún Naas was one of the three Royal Sites in ancient Leinster Province. According to oral history, the hillfort was founded by Lugh Lamfota (Lugh of the Long Arm). The site was later "Christianized by a number of visits from St. Patrick.

    In annuals and records the name of Naas appears in three forms: An Nás, meaning "The Place of Assembly;" Nas Laighean meaning "The Place of The Leinstermen;" and Nás na Riogh meaning "The Place of Assembly of the Kings." The original Dún of Naas destroyed by King Tuathaill Teachtmhar in 134 AD was rebuilt by Luighdech Eithlenn, King of Leinster in 140 AD. It was burned down by Cormac Mac Airt, High King of Ireland in 277 AD to avenge the massacre of thirty royal maidens and a large number of their attendants by the Leinster king, Dunlang. According to the Dindsenchas, it was rebuilt once more by the legendary Princess Tailtinn. The "Four Masters" tells that in 705 Conall Cinn Maghair, son of Fergus of Fanat, led an army into Leinster, devastated Naas, carrying away hostages, and tribute. He composed a poetic farewell to the Liffey, in which he praises the unbroken level grass-producing surface of its plain, as far as the Dun of Naas . The "Annals of Ulster" mention its ruin quoting the ancient poem by Conall, which implies that the royal residence was a large single-roofed house on the Dún. "Thou wert safe, except thy roof, O Dún of Naas. The plain of Liffey ... today it is a scorched place."

    Dun Naas consists of two "motes" (earthwork mounds), North and South. The North mote is ten meters high with a diameter of almost a hundred meters at the base. This was constructed during the Viking era on the site of the original Dun. The south mote is now reduced to just a low hill and shows no evidence of fortifications.

    Bardic History relates that it was founded by Lugh Lamfota, and according to ancient tradition the original founders commenced the building of the of the town somewhere in the townland of Broadfield. Naas was the capital of the district anciently called Airthear Life and was on the border between Ui Faolain- the O'Byrne Kingdom, and the Ui Muiri - the O'Toole Kingdom. The Dun or Fort was considered almost unpregnable in ancient times. It was almost certainly built on the site of the North Moat, which is still intact, and commands the town from a central position, behind the town hall. The South Moat has disappeared as such, and its site is now a large low hillock which is the Fair Green.

    The Dun of Naas existed at a very early period. It is mentioned in connection with the legendary origin of the Boroma Laighain or Leinster Tribute in the reign of the High King of Ireland Tuathail Teachtmhar in the second century. Tuthail had two beautiful daughters, Fithir and Darina. The King of Leinster at that time was Eochy Aincheaun, married Darina and carried her off to his Palace at Naas. Eochy was also determined to get his hands on her sister Fithir, as his second wife. so he shut up Darina in a room in his palace, and sent out a report that she was dead. He then went to Tara, in a great appearance of grief and informed Tuathail that his daughter was dead, and asked for her sister. Tuthail consented, and Eochy returned home to Naas with his new wife. Soon afterwards, however, Darina, escaping from her prison, unexpectedly met her husband and her sister. Her sister fell dead before her face, and the young Queen Darina soon died of a broken heart.

    134 AD

    Tuthail, at the head of a powerful force, avenged the insult to his daughter by conquering and beheading Eochy. And O'Flaherty's Ogygia informs us that Naas was destroyed and the inhabitants massacred. He levied a Leinster Tribute of 6000 ounces of Silver, 6000 richly woven mantles, and 6000 cows, hogs, and sheep, every two years. this was abolished in 680 AD by King Finachtach. It was however revived 300 years later by Brian Boro, King of Munster, hence his name Boroime.

    277 AD

    The Dun of Naas built by Luighdech Eithlenn King of Leinster, was burnt by Cormac Mac Art, a powerful High King of Ireland, whose laws remained in force throughout the middle ages. This was done to avenge the massacre by Dunlang, King of Leinster, of thirty royal maidens, with a large number of their attendants.

    http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Places/Place/358041

    What does (Nás) Naas actually mean in Gaelic? Nothing. It has no meaning in Gaelic. But the name is connected to Lugh:

    naas.jpg
    The arms incorporate a snake. The motto - Prudens ut Serpens - means The Wisdom of the Snake. The specific origin of the snake in the coat of arms is unknown.
    The Naassenes (Greek Naasseni, possibly from Hebrew נָחָשׁ naḥash, snake)[citation needed] were a Christian Gnostic sect from around 100 AD known only through the writings of Hippolytus of Rome.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naassenes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophites

    They had two symbols: the snake and "celtic cross":

    220px-Crossed_circle.svg.png

    These "celtic" crosses appear all over europe, from Langdock where they are called Cathar crosses:

    BRG_02.jpg

    http://sgdelestaing.pagesperso-orange.fr/English/EnSteles.htm#LES STELES DE BARAIGNE

    to Central Europe and particularly Eastern Serbia, the land of king Trojan with goat's ears:

    ris-6.jpg


    Who was the main teacher of Gnostic, Hermetic knowledge? Hermes Trismegistus - "thrice-greatest Hermes" or Mercurius ter Maximus.
    Hermes Trismegistus (Ancient Greek: Ἑρμῆς ὁ Τρισμέγιστος, "thrice-greatest Hermes"; Latin: Mercurius ter Maximus) is the purported author of the Hermetic Corpus, a series of sacred texts that are the basis of Hermeticism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus

    And who was Lugh compared to? Hermes or Mercury. Lugh was also always associated with snakes. And he was often depicted with three heads so he was indeed thrice-greatest. Here is a depiction of Lugus, Lugh:

    170px-Tricephale_Carnavalet.jpg

    So naas, the snake town, was a fitting name for the snake god.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Naas was later the capital of the northern Laigin of the sept Uí Fáeláin:
    Uí Fáeláin sept of the Uí Dúnlainge branch of the Laigin. This sept had their royal seat at Naas in the eastern part of the Liffey plain.

    The word "faolán" is derived from the Old Irish word "faelán" meaning a small wolf; '-án' being of the diminutive suffix in Irish. Interestingly Lugh is also connected with wolves:
    What is interesting is that Lugh (Lugus) was also connected with wolves (hounds). In Irish "Cú" can mean hound or a wolf or a wolf hound (cross between wolves and dogs).

    The iconography of Gaulish Mercury includes birds, particularly ravens and the cock, now the emblem of France; horses; the tree of life; dogs or wolves; a pair of snakes (cf Hermes's Caduceus); mistletoe; shoes (one of the dedications to the Lugoves was made by a shoemakers' guild; Lugus's Welsh counterpart Lleu (or Llew) Llaw Gyffes is described in the Welsh Triads as one of the "three golden shoemakers of the island of Britain"); and bags of money. He is often armed with a spear. He is frequently accompanied by his consort Rosmerta ("great provider"), who bears the ritual drink with which kingship was conferred (in Roman mythology). Unlike the Roman Mercury, who is always a youth, Gaulish Mercury is occasionally also represented as an old man.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus
    There may be further triplism associated with his birth. His father in the folktale is one of a triad of brothers, Mac Cinnfhaelaidh, Gavida and Mac Samthainn, and his father in the medieval texts, Cian, is often mentioned together with his brothers Cú and Cethen.[4] Two characters called Lugaid, a popular medieval Irish name thought to derive from Lugh, have three fathers: Lugaid Riab nDerg (Lugaid of the Red Stripes) was the son of the three Findemna or fair triplets,[5] and Lugaid mac Con Roí was also known as mac Trí Con, "son of three hounds".[6] In Ireland's other great "sequestered maiden" story, the tragedy of Deirdre, the king's intended is carried off by three brothers, who are hunters with hounds.[7] The canine imagery continues with Cian's brother Cú ("hound"), another Lugaid, Lugaid Mac Con (son of a hound), and Lugh's son Cúchulainn ("Culann's Hound").[8] A fourth Lugaid was Lugaid Loígde, a legendary King of Tara and ancestor of (or inspiration for) Lugaid Mac Con.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh

    So Lugh, the triple god has a wolf (hound) son. He also had a war wolf (hound) of unusual properties:
    A gigantic black war dog five feet tall at the shoulder, the Hound of Lugh is a fearsome sight on the battlefield. While the dog is a ferocious combatant, its primary use to Scions comes from its superlative senses. The hound can unerringly track prey across forest, desert, tundra or any other environment. The Creature is courageous to a fault, and surprisingly intelligent for an animal.

    Here is more about this amasing wolf (hound) of Lugh
    Fáil Inis was a hound-whelp owned by Lugh Lámhfhada of the Tuatha Dé Danann in the Mythological Cycle of Irish literature. The hound was invincible in battle, caught every wild beast it encountered, and could magically change any running water it bathed in into wine.[1] It was one of the prizes exacted from the children of Tuireann (Brían, Iuchar and Iucharba) as reparation for the slaying of Lugh's father Cian.[2]
    By the same name, or nearly so (Failinis or Ṡalinnis), this hound of Lugh also occurs in recensions of a certain medieval ballad from the Fenian cycle. The ballad relates how the wonder-dog is brought to Ireland by a threesome (also from "Iruaid"). A variant telling of this threesome also occurs in The Colloquy of the Elders, though the dog's name there is Fer Mac.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failinis

    Here the hound is actually called "Fáil Inis" = "Fáilinis" which i believe is the corruption of the "Fáeláin" "faolán" little wolf.
    Aided Chloinne Tuireann

    The hound's name Failinis appears in the full narrative version of The Fate of the Children of Tuireann (see Brian (mythology), Tuireann), which only survives in manuscripts from early 18th century and later. However, neither dog nor its name is by any means a concoction of late tradition. The Lebor Gabála Éirenn (Book of Invasions) gives a brief account of Lugh's demands, according to which he obtained "the whelp of the royal smith of Ioruath" (Irish: Cuilen rīg goband na Hiruaidhe) which was "a hound by night and a sheep by day" and whatever pool of water touched its hide (Irish: croccenn) turned to wine.[9] The hound's name is not specifically given in the Book of Invasions.

    12th-century ballad

    However, the name of Lugh's dog Failinis is indeed recorded in Medieval manuscripts. It occurs in a certain "ballad" (Irish: dúan) starting with the line "They came a band of three…" (Irish: "Dám Thrír Táncatair Ille). It has been characterized by Stern as an Ossianic ballad of the 12th century, i.e., a poem in the pretext of a work by Oisín in reminiscence of the Fianna's past. The ballad relates how a threesome from Iruaid brings along a magical dog (Irish: Ṡalinnis (Shalinnis) (LL version)[10] / Failinis (Lismore version))[11]) which turns any fresh water (spring water) it touches into mead or wine. The dog once belonged to Lugh of the mantles (Irish: Lugh na Lenn, a corruption of Lugh's matronymic "Lugh mac Ethlenn"[12]). The hound is responsible for the death of one of the Fianna (Dubán mac Bresail) so that the threesome (Sela, Dorait, Domnán) forfeit the dog as compensation. The Fianna then kill the hound and flay its hide (presumably with its wine-making powers intact), and carry it off into foreign campaigns.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failinis

    This magical wolf by night and sheep by day, who turns water to wine, belonged to Lugh and killed one of the Fianna called: Dubán mac Bresail. Who is this Dubán mac Bresail?

    In Irish mythology, Bres (aka Eochaid Bres or Eochu Bres; modern spelling: Breas or Eochaidh Breas) was a king of the Tuatha Dé Danann. His parents were Prince Elatha of the Fomorians and Eri, daughter of Delbaith. He was an unpopular king, and favoured his Fomorian kin. He led the Fomorians in the Second Battle of Magh Tuireadh but lost. He was found unprotected on the battlefield by Lugh and pleaded for his life. Lugh spared him because he promised to teach the Tuatha Dé agriculture.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bres

    The old god of Fomorians was Crom Dubh, the god of agriculture among other things. He was also probably the ancestor of Fomorians as well. So Bres was Bres mac Dubh and he was defeated by Lugh who was also mac Dubh. Is the story about Dubán mac Bresail being killed by hound (wolf) Fáilinis just another version of the story of Bres and Lugh where Lugh is directly linked to wolves?

    Do you remember the magic spear of Lugh?
    In the Ulster Cycle of early Irish literature, the Lúin of Celtchar (Irish: Lúin Celtchair) is the name of a long, fiery lance or spear belonging to Celtchar mac Uthechar and wielded by other heroes, such as Dubthach, Mac Cécht and Fedlimid.

    If we look at the owner of the spear we find lots of wolf (hounds) as well:

    Celtchar (or Celtchair), son of Uthechar or Uthidir, is a character from the Ulster Cycle of Irish Mythology. In Scéla Mucce Maic Dathó ("The Tale of Mac Dathó's Pig") he is described as "a grey, tall, very terrible hero of Ulster".
    In compensation for murdering Blaí Briugu, who had slept with his wife, Celtchar has to rid Ulster of three menaces.

    The first is Conganchnes mac Dedad, who seeks revenge for the death of his nephew Cú Roí, and who has skin like horn, which no weapon can pierce. Celtchar offers him his daughter Niam in marriage, who discovers that Conganchnes can only be killed by hammering red hot spits into the soles of his feet. She passes the information to her father, who does the deed.

    The second menace is a ferocious dog called Luch Donn ("brown mouse"). It had been found as a pup by a widow, who raised it until it was enormous and uncontrollable. It killed all the widow's sheep and cattle, then her sons, and finally the widow herself, and now it devastates a settlement every night. Celtchar finds an alder log, hollows it out so his arm will fit through it, and boils it in honey, grease and herbs until it tough and supple. He approaches the dog with the log over his arm, and when the dog bites into it its teeth get stuck, enabling Celtchar to pull its heart out through its throat, killing it.

    The third menace is Dóelchú, Celtchar's own dog. It was found as a pup inside Conganchnes's burial mound, and would only let Celtchar handle it, until one day it escaped, and became a menace to the cattle and sheep of Ulster. Celtchar finds the dog and calls to it, and it comes and licks his feet. Reluctantly, Celtchar dispatches it with his spear. As he lifts the spear, a drop of the dog's poisonous blood runs down it and through Celtchar's body, killing him.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtchar_mac_Uthechar


    All three menaces are connected with Lugh:

    Lugh was associated with coblers and making shoes. So killing Conganchnes mac Dedad by hammering red hot spits into the soles of his feet is a ritual killing of Lugh or in Lugh's name. Luch Donn is not a "brown mouse". Lugh Donn is Lugh son of Don, Dana. Celtchar's own dog Dóelchú was found as a pup inside Conganchnes's burial mound. He is reincarnation of Lugh, Lugh resurrected. His name "Dóelchú" is probably mangled from "faolchu" meaning wolf. This wolf is the spirit of Lugh. He gets killed with the spear of Lugh. But Lugh, the wolf god, the wolf shepherd, the wolf king is immortal and can not be killed. The proof of this is that Dóelchú faolchu kills Celtchar after his death with a drop of blood that drips down Lugh's spear.

    Then there is Cú Roí wolf (hound) king.
    Cú Roí (Cú Ruí, Cú Raoi) mac Dáire is a king of Munster in the Ulster Cycle of Irish mythology. He is usually portrayed as a warrior with superhuman abilities and a master of disguise possessed of magical powers. Though often an outsider figure, for instance in the role of intervener or arbitrator, Cú Roí appears in a great number of medieval Irish texts, including Forfess Fer Fálgae, Amra Con Roi, Brinna Ferchertne, Aided Chon Roi (in several recensions), Fled Bricrenn, Mesca Ulad and Táin Bó Cúailnge. The early Irish tale-lists refer to such titles as Aided Chon Roí, Echtra Chon Roí (List A), Orgain Chathrach Chon Roí and Cathbúada Con Roí (List B), but only the first of these tales can be shown to have survived in some form.[4] Several tales describe the enmity between him and the Ulster hero Cú Chulainn, who eventually kills him.
    Cú Roí plays an important role in the 8th-century tale Fled Bricrenn (Bricriu's Feast). The trickster Bricriu incites the heroes Cú Chulainn, Conall Cernach and Lóegaire Búadach to compete for the champion's portion at a feast, and Cú Roí is one of those who judged among them. Like all the other judges, he chooses Cú Chulainn, but Conall and Lóegaire refuse to accept his verdict. When the three heroes return to Ulster, Cú Roí appears to each in the guise of a hideous churl (bachlach) and challenges them to behead him, then allow him to return and behead them. Only Cú Chulainn is brave and honourable enough to submit himself to the churl's axe, so he is declared champion. This story is related to the "beheading game" motif appearing in many later works in Arthurian literature - most famously the 14th-century English poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, although closer correspondences are to be found in Diu Crone and la Mule sans Frein, both of which feature a revolving fortress like Cu Roi's.
    The episode appears as Aislinge n-Aimirgin ("The trance of Amairgin") in Recension I of the Táin.[8] Having followed news of Cú Chulainn's sustained success in single-handedly opposing the Connacht army, Cú Roí once again appears on the scene, this time to fight Cú Chulainn directly. However, on finding Cú Chulainn weak from the injuries which Ferdiad had recently inflicted on him, he refused to carry out his original plan. Instead he faces the giant warrior poet Amairgin...
    Cú Roí's death by Cú Chulainn's hand is the subject of the tale Aided Con Roi, which survives in two versions. A number of tales describe enmity between the two warriors, and some allude to a lost story of its origin. Texts such as Forfess Fer Fálgae and Siaburcharpát Con Culainn describe a raid on Inis Fer Falga (possibly the Isle of Man) in which Cú Roí and Cú Chulainn come into conflict. The texts indicate that two were involved in an Ulster raid on the Fir Falgae, with Cú Roí participating again in disguise. They steal treasure and abduct Bláthnat, daughter of the king of the island, who loves Cú Chulainn. But when Cú Roí is asked to choose his share, he chooses Bláthnat. Cú Chulainn tries to stop him taking her, but Cú Roí drives him into the ground up to his armpits and cuts off his hair before escaping, taking Bláthnat with him.
    Aided Con Roí[edit]
    Later, Bláthnat (Blanaid) betrays Cú Roí to Cú Chulainn, who besieges his fort and killed him. In one version of the story, Cú Roí's soul was hidden in an apple in the belly of a salmon which lived in a stream in the Slieve Mish Mountains, and only surfaced once every seven years; Bláthnat discovered the secret and told Cú Chulainn, who killed the fish, enabling him to kill Cú Roí. However Ferchertne, Cú Roí's poet, enraged at the betrayal of his lord, grabbed Bláthnat and leaped off a cliff, killing her and himself.
    Cú Roí's uncle (or brother or nephew), Conganchnes ("Horn-skinned"), tried to avenge him, but was killed by Celtchar. His son, Lugaid mac Con Roí, later succeedes in avenging him by killing Cú Chulainn, a story told in Aided Con Culainn. Lugaid is himself killed by Conall Cernach.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD

    Who is this wolf king, "a warrior with superhuman abilities and a master of disguise possessed of magical powers"? The king who chooses Cú Chulainn as his champion, refuses to fight him and then gets killed by him only to be revenged by his son called Lugaid mac Con Roí (lugh the son of the wolf king)?

    Central to the Lúghnasadh ritual in its oldest form was an enactment of the myth of the season. Certainly some version or other of Cath Maige Tuired would have been the most popular material for this in early Ireland (even though the literary sources had the battle -- like virtually all supernatural events -- taking place on Samhain!), but a huge number of variants were possible. A person playing the role of Lúgh -- or of a local saint or hero who had taken on Lúgh's attributes -- would fight against the various monsters sent against him by the Fomorian god of the Land, and eventually triumph over the god of the Land himself. In modern Ireland the god of the Land is almost always Crom Dubh ("The Bent Black One" -- the holiday is often called Domhnach Croim Dhuibh -- "Crom Dubh's Sunday" -- after him), and one of the principal adversaries he sends against his challenger is a great bull41 (unlike horses, who symbolize the power of the Tribe, cattle represent the Land: cows are its nurturing aspect, but bulls show its destructive side). Lúgh's victory, in some cases, may have been dramatized as leaping over a stone head. "The Gaulish figure of the mounted cavalier prancing over a head emerging from the ground,or over a giant emerging from the ground, seems to illustrate this myth and may even be a representation of an acted rite."42

    http://www.mythicalireland.com/mythology/tuathade/lugus.html

    Lúghnasadh is also known as Dé Domhnaigh Crum-Dubh. Crom dubh, hromi daba, Dabog was in Serbia also known as the wolf shepherd.
    The Serbs more than any other people imagined Dazbog as a lame old man, dressed in animal skins, usually bear skin, accompanied by a wolf. The wolf actually stands for his animal incarnation, or his primary shape that did not cease to exist after Dazbog turned anthropomorphic. The wolf became a servant, and often a messenger as well. Although his basic form was anthropomorphic, Dazbog frequently changed his shape, and his earliest wolf form remained his symbol. As the Serbs considered themselves his descendants, the wolf became a sacred animal.

    http://www.starisloveni.com/English/Dazbog.html
    Although these medieval documents come from the East Slavic area, names similar to Dažbog/Dažboh have survived in the folklores of both West and South Slavic populations. Of particular interest is the Serbian Dabog or Dajbog (most modern mythographers take for granted this is the same character as East Slavic Dažbog/Dažboh), also known as Hromi Daba (meaning "Daba the Lame"), described in folklore as a lame "shepherd of wolves", an ugly demon-lord who rules the underworld and travels through the world of men.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog

    Dabog is in Serbia also called Triglav or Trojan, the Three Headed god. And he is also known as Snake king:

    http://sms.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/01/SMS_01_Loma.pdf

    Among the tribes of the Laigin were the Luighne (Race of Lugh, part of the Cianacht, "Family of Cian") and the Dealbhne, the "Shining Race", which was split between the septs of Nuadat (Nuada) and Eathra (the Mariner, probably Manannan).


    Lugh was the son of Crom Dubh, who was also known as Crom Cruach. Crom Cruach was also known as "the head of all gods".
    12th century Life and Acts of St. Patrick tells much the same story. Here the god is called Cenncroithi, interpreted as "the head of all gods"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crom_Cruach

    Is Cianacht, "Family of Cian" then the family of "ceann", the head, crom dubh? The full genealogy of Laigin would then be sons of Lugh, sons of Crom Dubh...

    Serbs call themselves sons of Hromi Daba, Dabog, Triglav, Snake king, Silver king, Wolf shepherd.

    The Laigin, like the Tuatha Dé Danann, are also associated with the Cruithne. Beli Mawr, the husband of the goddess Danu, is the legendary founder the Deisi, later rulers of the British kingdom of Dyfed.

    Who was this: Beli Mawr God of Light? also called Beli, Belin, Belinos, Belinus, Bellinus, Belenos.

    beli: shining (modern Welsh: pelydur--radiant. It is common for b's and p's to mutate into one another in Welsh, depending on dialect and time period. Deriving from the Celtic word bel--to shine, to be bright. The old Celtic god was called Belinos/Belenos)

    mawr: great, large

    Legendary king of Britain, Beli either is in origin the Celtic sun god Belenos or was conflated with him at an early period, but here in his medieval form is consort to the (semi-hypothetical) earth mother Dôn...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beli_Mawr
    http://www.maryjones.us/jce/belimawr.html

    Beli in Serbian means "white". Belinos is Beli + nos = white + carry, has lots of. Beli, Belinos, Belin, all mean white, shining.

    So who is Belinos actually: sun, light, Lugh, Dagda? What is relationship between Lugh, Crom Dubh, Dagda, Dabog, Hromi daba? How can a sun god, god of light be at the same time the god of the underworld?

    I will try to explore in next good few posts.

    I hope you have fun reading this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    R1b = 81%

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    R1b in Ireland is mostly atlantic R1b-L21 which is almost non existent in central Europe.

    Central European R1b-S21 has a frequency in Ireland of 15-5% with the highest concentration in the north and east of Ireland,.

    If you are going to compare R1b-U106 use other haplogroups at the same phylogenetic level in the tree as oppose to R1b-L21 which is one step further down.

    For example if we look at Switzerland data from Busby (2009) we see the following:

    Switzerland Southcentral
    • U106+ : 15.63%
    • P312+: 43.75%

    Switzerland Northeast
    • U106+ : 18.75%%
    • P312+: 31.25%

    Switzerland Northwest
    • U106+ : 3.70%
    • P312+: 48.15%

    Switzerland (Upper Rhone Valley)
    • U106+ : 12.12%
    • P312+: 12.12%

    Switzerland (Lower Rhone Valley)
    • U106+: 11.76%
    • P312+: 25.49%

    In total there were 175 swiss in the study. The averages for the total worked out as:
    • U106+: 12.57%
    • P312+: 30.86%

    The 30.86% P312+ consisted of the following:
    • U152+: 18.29%
    • L21+: 2.29%
    • P312* (U152-, L21-): 10.29%

    The same study had 9 samples for Ireland consisting of 476 men.
    • P312+: 81.30%
    • U106+: 5.25%

    The Irish P312+ (81.30% of Busby sample) was broken down as:
    • L21+: 70.59%
    • U152+: 2.31%
    • P312* (L21-, U152-): 8.40%

    The highest concentrations of U106 in Ireland are probably due to the last 1,000 years of history and not anything to do with the Bronze age. This is often born out by the fact that if you look at the data connected to U106+ in Ireland most men who are U106+ carry non "Gaelic surnames"

    Maciamo on Eupedia recently put up a map of R1b-P312, though he unfortunately decided to call it a map of "Italo-Celtic Y DNA"

    Celtic_Europe.gif

    Busby only used a small number of SNP's in study, been alot of new ones discovered in last four years. Most of what was recorded as P312* (L21-, U152-) is probably DF27+.

    R1b-P312_Descendency_Tree.jpg

    The TMRCA of P312 and L21 is nearly identical, they would have been only a couple of hundred years after the first P312+ man that the first L21+ man was born (to a P312+, L21- father)

    Here is corresponding U106 tree, though not as up todate as P312 one.
    QZZzVKC5gmisl4Ql5PtWxH6dcQliyRSs-O66ebTedPQ

    There has been several major subdividing SNP's discovered over the last couple of years, this is evident when you compare the following tree from 2011 (showing L11 and it's subclades P312 and U106)
    R1b-deepClade.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    dubhthach

    Thank you for your post.

    I will continue my discussion abut Crom Dubh, Hromi Daba, Dabog, Dagda, Lug and how they all relate to each other. The problem is where to start. Well Dingle is as good a place as any.

    If we look at pilgrim routes around County Kerry, in each case the origins of the Christian pilgrimage lie in ancient pagan celebrations, and are a continuaton of the spiritual life of the land from the days of Lug and Crom Dubh. Crom Dubh- “The Black Crooked One” appears in the story of the pilgrimage to Mount Brandon. The journey starts at Ventry Strand and travels over the Dingle peninsula along the "Saints ‘Road". This Pilgrimage is believed to be a continuation of the Ancient celebrations of Lughnasa, and is associated with the gods Lugh and Crom Dubh. In this story Saint Brendan is the Christian warrior battling the old pagan gods, and in various accounts he ousts Crom Dubh from the mountain, or converts him to Christianity. A carved stone head in the old church at Cloghane was believed to represent Crorn Dubh. Many physical objects in the modern landscape suggest evidence of the early Christian pilgrimage. Gallarus Oratory is situated near the route, and it has been suggested that this dry stone structure was built for the practical purpose of sheltering pilgrims during bad weather; however, Gallarus remains something of a mystery and there is no agreement either as to its date and purpose.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallarus_Oratory
    http://www.megalithicireland.com/Gallarus%20Oratory.htm


    A boulder at Kilcolman is inscribed ‘Colnián the Pilgrim’, and the Arraglen stone pillar on the slopes of Brandon is carved with the Ogham inscription - ‘Ronan the Priest’. Obviously these all used to be holy stones associated with Crom Dubh, which were "converted" or "christianised". At Kilmajiceader there is a medieval church, with a number of bullaun stones. The stones were believed to be sacred and pilgrims may have splashed rainwater gathered in the hollows onto afflicted areas. On reaching the summit, pilgrims could rest against ‘Leac na nDrom’ — the stone of the backs, which was reputed to cure backache and rheumatism. Pilgrims made nine circuits of St Brendan’s well, and carried home water from the holy well. In modern times the pilgrimage is made on the last Sunday in July - Crom Dubh Sunday, and St Brendan’s Day - May 16th.


    This is one of the versions of the story how st Brendan defeated Crom Dubh:
    Saint Brendan and his brethren are erecting a church at Cloghane, at the foot of Mount Brandon. They ask the local pagan chieftain, Crom Dubh, for a contribution. He volunteers a bull, knowing full well that the bull is wild and dangerous. Brendan's monks attach a halter to the bull's neck and lead the animal placidly away. The bull was slaughtered and his meet was eaten by the workers and his blood was used for mortar. Crom Dubh is furious and demands the bull's return. Brendan writes the words Ave Maria on a slip of paper and suggests to Crom Dubh that the paper weighs more than the bull. Nonsense, asserts the pagan chieftain. A scale is arranged and, sure enough, the paper outweighs the bull. Crom Dubh is so impressed that he submits to conversion, along with all of his tribe. A pattern (patron saint day) to Crom Dubh's honor is held in the village of Ballybran on the last day of every July ever since. It is called in Irish Domach Crom Dubh (Crom Dubh Sunday). Some villagers add that the celebration of Domach Crom Dubh used to take place in the graveyard around the head which represented Crom Dubh. Marie MacNeill attested to the antiquity of the head and surmised that the stone was probably taken to the top of Mount Brendon for the harvest festival of Lughnasad. (From Irish folclore commission Archives)

    from: "Saints, Scholars, and Schizophrenics: Mental Illness in Rural Ireland"

    This story shows that the sacrificial animal of Crom Dubh was a bull. Bulls are always found as a replacement sacrifice used instead of human sacrifice and especially instead of king's sacrifice. The fact that the bull's blood was used for mortar points at human sacrifices performed to insure successful erection of buildings. This type of sacrifice is well documented in Europe and particularly in the Balkans. What is even more astonishing is the description of the saint's day celebration dedicated not to st Brendan but to Crom Dubh. I would suggest that word pattern comes from pater (father) as well as patron (protector). Hromi Daba, Dabog, the wolf king, the wolf shepard is considered to be the father of Serbs. So here in the hart of the Corcu Duibne land people we have a village of Ballybran which is an equivalent of Ballydubh as vran and dubh mean the black, dark, in Serbian. These people celebrate slava, saint protector day but ultimately celebration of the main ancestor of the Corcu Duibne: Crom Dubh. The fact the the original mass used to be held on the graveyard just confirms that what we have here is an ancestor cult celebration called slava, which only exists among the Serbs, and as we see now among some Irish as well.

    Who was this Brendan the man who defeated Crom Dubh?
    In 484 Brendan was born in Tralee, in County Kerry, in the province of Munster, in the south-west of Ireland.[5] He was born among the Altraige, a tribe originally centered around Tralee Bay, to parents called Finnlug and Cara.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan


    When we look at the name of Brendan and his father we find something very interesting:
    Finlug, Fionn Lugh, Finlug, Finnlug, Fionnlugh, Fionnlú, Finlag, Finlo, Fionnlaoch

    Derived from Gaelic fionn "white, fair" and lug "light, brightness". The second element may refer to the pagan sun god Lugh, in which case it means "fair Lugh". This was the name of numerous minor early Irish saints ("three of the most often mentioned are Finnlug, the father of Saint Brendan; Finnlug of Doon (Co. Limerick); and Finnlug, the father of St Finnian of Clonard"), "which is curious, as the name combines those of two of the best-known pagan figures, Fionn mac Cumhaill and Lug Lámfhota... James Joyce cites the name as ‘Fynlogue’ in Finnegans Wake (1939), exploiting both the shadowy ambiguity and the possible associations with Fionn mac Cumhaill." It is probably an older form of Fionnlagh (a Christianized variant, in which the second element was replaced with laogh "hero, warrior").

    So Brendan's father is Lugh, Crom Dubh. When we look at the name of his mother we realize that his mother Cara is Crom Dubh's wife Corra:
    Crom was not a batchelor. We have 2 stories of Crom having a partner - 1) Aine or Corra, goddess of Ireland, and harvest deity, who lives on Cruachain Aigle aka The Reek or Croagh Patrick. 2) He attracted a familiar spirit that followed him. Her name is a generic: Linnaun shee, a fairy sweetheart; in Irish spelt "leannán sidhe." Linnaun-shee or more correct Lannaun-shee; a familiar spirit or fairy that attaches itself to a mortal and follows him. From Irish leannan, a lover, and sidh [shee], a fairy: lannaun-shee, 'fairy-lover.' This clearly tells us that Crom as a mortal had special powers sufficient to have a fairy lover... Crom’s two sons were called Téideach and Clonnach, they are made out to be even worse than Crom himself. Crom also had two dogs - Coinn Iothair (hound of rage) and Saidhthe Suaraighe (bitch of wickedness).
    A pilgrimage is made to Croagh Patrick on the last Sunday in July, and although such a pilgrimage is associated with Lughnasa, locally it is called Domnack Chrom Dubh (Crom Dubh's Sunday). Lough na Corra at the base of the mountain is thought to be the site where a demon named "Cora" was driven by the saint.

    Saint Patrick fought one of his greatest battles at this site as he was lured into battled with Corra the triple goddess taking serpent form. From Loch Derg (Lake of the Cave) Patrick was abducted into the otherworld but he escaped which shows his victory not only over Corra but of all Paganism as it is said that after defeating Corra all snakes on Irish soil disappeared. But there is a hint on that Island the lake of the ‘cave’ and with Corra in snake form, for the ‘cave’ was a pagan sanctuary, with a temple of incubation – which practised this ritual of incubation of entering the otherworld through mind altering techniques or drugs. The snake was always associated with these sanctuaries as throughout Europe in similar temples they roamed free. It is well documented that the Romans wiped out such sanctuaries, wiping out these ancient practices, creating the way for Christianity – and so we have Saint Patrick fighting Corra, a symbolism of Irish Paganism.


    Also, Brendan's own name could just be a bastardization of Bran as was suggested by Marie MacNeill. In Dingle locals claim that the true name of the Brendan's head peninsula is Bran's nose. What is interesting is that b and v sounds are interchangeable as they are produce using the same position of the speech apparatus and can be very easily morphed into one another. In Irish we actually don't have v. Instead we write bh and mh. Now vran in Serbian means black, vrana means crow and bavran or vran is a raven. In his book "The white goddess", Robert Graves calls Bran a Crow-god:

    The Bran cult seems also to have been imported from the Aegean. There are remarkable resemblances between him and the Pelasgian hero Aesculapius who, like the chieftain Coronus ('crow') killed by Hercules, was a king of the Thessalian crow-totem tribe of Lapiths. Aesculapius was a Crow on both sides of the family: his mother was Coronis ('crow'), probably a tide of the Goddess Athene to whom the crow was sacred. Tatian, the Church Father, in his Address to the Greeks, suggests a mother and son relationship between Athene and Aesculapius: After the decapitation of the Gorgon .. . Athene and Aesculapius divided the blood between them, and while he saved lives by means of them, she by the same blood became a murderess and instigator of wars. Aesculapius's father was Apollo, who was first a god of the Underworld and then became a sun god.

    http://72.52.202.216/~fenderse/The-White-Goddess.pdf
    Because of their dark color and gruesome dietary habits, ravens were especially connected with gods of war and death. But those same gods were also associated with growth and fertility, so ravens were also symbols of new life. It was the raven that accompanied the souls of the dead to the afterlife, and portraits of the deceased often depicted them with the bird. Ravens were sometimes viewed as reincarnated warriors or heroes — the Welsh hero Owain had an army of invincible ravens, which are sometimes interpreted as an army of reincarnated warriors.

    The warrior god Bendigeitvran, better known as “Bran the Blessed,” was for a time the Welsh/British father god; his name means “blessed raven.” Bran's head is rumored to be buried under the Tower of London, where it protects England against invaders. A persistent superstition regarding the tower is that should the ravens who inhabit it flee, England will be without protection.
    The raven was the ruler of the domain of air and therefore of communication; the cry of the raven was often interpreted as the voice of the gods. Images of the gods Lugh and Bran often depict them with birds alighting on their heads and shoulders, symbolizing this divine communication. (The Norse god Odin, who is sometimes compared to Lugh and Bran, has as his companions two ravens called Thought and Memory.) For this reason, ravens were favored by the druids for use in divinatory ritual.

    http://www.netplaces.com/celtic-wisdom/sacred-animals/birds-messengers-of-the-gods.htm

    If raven was the ruler of the domain of air and therefore of communication, and it was associate with god Lugh who was also god of communication, and Serbian and Welsh word for raven is "vran" maybe this is why we have wren associated with Lugh. Is association of wren with Luth miss translation of the original myth? I will talk about this later.

    The Welsh mythological texts of the Mabinogion were recorded between the 14th and 15th centuries in Middle Welsh. As a result there are discrepancies regarding the spelling of names, because English translations maintain Middle Welsh orthography whereas Modern Welsh versions use Modern Welsh orthography. In Middle Welsh, there was some variation on the name Brân; other forms include Vran and Uran.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran_the_Blessed
    John T. Koch proposes a number of parallels between the mythological Bendigeidfran and the historical Celtic chieftain Brennus, who invaded the Balkans in the 3rd century BC.[3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran_the_Blessed

    This is interesting. Was this 3rd century BC invasion just going back home? Or did all the glorious things from Irish Myths actually happen in the Balkans and were later brought and transplanted to Ireland?

    Marie MacNeill also says that worship of St Brendan has replaced the worship of a sun god Lugh which was originally worshiped on mountain tops. What is interesting is that all those mountain tops are also associated with Crom Dubh.

    In Ireland we have a triple deity called Crom Dubh but also Lugh. He was often portrayed as a triple headed god. Crom Dubh was a god of the underworld, the sun god and the god of fertility. In Serbia this triple god of the underworld, sun and fertility is is Dabog, hromi daba, triglav.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Irish name for Dingle is Corca Dhuibhne.
    The Dingle Peninsula is named after the town of Dingle. The peninsula is also commonly called Corca Dhuibhne (Corcu Duibne) even when those referring to it are speaking in English. Corca Dhuibhne,[1] which means "seed or tribe of Duibhne"[2] (an Irish personal name), takes its name from the túath (people, nation) of Corco Dhuibhne who occupied the peninsula in the Middle Ages and who also held a number of territories in the south and east of County Kerry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingle_Peninsula

    In Serbian "kur" means penis and "kurac" means erect penis. Is it possible that Corca Dhuibhne could mean the penis of Dubh and that people who live on it are indeed seed of Dubh, Crom Dubh?

    Serbian (South Slavic) word Kur, Kurac (pronounced Kur, Kurats) meaning penis, dick, is a mystery for Slavists because it has no matching words in any other Slavic language. But it is one of those words which shows how deep :) is the connection between the Serbs and the Irish. Irish word "Cur (Cuir)" means "to put". In Serbian, "to put" is "Stav-iti" (to place) but also "Gur-nuti" (to put, push). From here we have the equality of the roots: Cur = Gur = to put, to push or what is put or pushed. "Cur" and "Gur" are actually one and the same word, as both "k" and "g" sounds are produced using the same position of the speech apparatus and are interchangeable. So let's see what Irish words we can find with this "C(g)ur" root and what are the counterparts in Serbian:

    Cur (kur) - to saw, to plant. In order to plant or saw, you need to stick put, stick, push something into the ground. In the same way when you are sawing children, you have to push the penis into vagina which in Serbian is "gurnuti (g)kurac". This is where word kur (penis) comes from. - (sejati, saditi. Da bi se sejalo sadilo nesto mora da se ugura u zemlju. Isto kao kad se prave (seju) deca onda se Gur gurne u Pitcu...)

    Cùr (kuur) - to foam. this word is probably newer and describes what happens to (kur, gur) when you have an intercourse. In Serbian, a slang expression meaning "to have an intercourse" is karati (kurati), garati (gurati) where "kara" is another version of "kur". It is interesting that word penis has the same meaning (foaming) in Serbian. pena - foam, peni se - is foaming. - (peniti se - Ovo je novija rec i predstavlja opis onoga sto se desava sa Curom, Gurom kad se Kara, Kura, Gara, Gura. Interesantno je da i rec Penis znaci isto Peni se...

    Cur (kur) - to burry. word kurgan probably comes from this root. kurgan - burial. when you are burring something you are pushing it (ti ga guras) into the ground. kurgan - gur ga - push him under, bury him. - (zakopati (odavde verovatno dolazi rec kurgan). Kad se zakopava onda se zagurava, gura se nesto u zemlju. Curgan, Kurgan je verovatno od Gur ga - gurni ga, zakopaj ga...)

    Curamach (kuramak) - throwing out. this word consists of Cur + Amach = put out, push out. Irish word amach has the same meaning as Serbian word "mak" meaning in front, outside. From word mak we have words like:

    Po-mak-nuti - to move something
    Mak-nuti - move something out
    Za-mak, Za-maka-o, Za-mak-nuti be or go behind something which is before you and will prevent others from seeing you. Zamak is one of the worda used to denote fortification walls
    U-mak, U-mak-ao escape, to escape, to be so much ahead of your pursuers that they give up the chase

    izbacivanje. Ova rec se sastoji od Cur + Amach = Gur + Napolje = Izbaciti. Ova rec Amach znaci na irskom napred, napolje i verovatno ima isti koren kao nase Mak, napred, napolje. Odavde Po-mak-nuti, Mak-nuti (pomeriti napred napolje), a i Za-mak, Za-maka-o, Za-mak-nuti (biti otici iza necega sto je ispred tebe i ne da ti da vidis ili uzmes), U-mak-ao (Neko ko je otisao suvise daleko napres pa ne vredi da ga vise juris)


    Cuiras (Curas) (kuras)- to put out, to stick out, to protrude. this word consists of two words: Cuir + as = put out of, from. Kurac is an erect penis, penis which is sticking out. - (izbaciti napolje, istaknuti, pokazati. Ova rec se sastoji iz reci Cuir + as = Gur + iz, napolje, od sebe ili necega.)

    Cursuas (kursuas)- lifting, erection. this word consists of two words: Cur + Suas meaning to put up. First you kur (peinis) goes up, turns into kurac, and then someone climbs on in, "peni se" meaning climb up as well as foam up. - (Podizanje, Erekcija. Ova rec se sastoji od Cur + Suas = Gur + na gore. Penis isto moze da bude od Penise, Penje se, Dize se. Prvo se penis popenje, pa se onda neko na njega popenje kad mu se kaze: "peni se"...)

    Curadh (kurad)- one who is sticking out, who stands out, who is distinguished, hero, brave man, champion. this word consists of two words: Cur + Adh. Adh is word ending which is used in the Irish language to create a noun from a verb which is a description of an action. This word also means luck, in a sense that someone got lucky. This is very old construction because it describes exactly what happened in the oldest times when action did not always have intended consequence or result. One needed to be lucky, otherwise his work would not yield a result. So Curadh is someone who was lucky to survive all dangerous actions and by doing so he became someone who sticks out. In Serbian "biti Kurat" "biti kuronja" means hero, brave man, champion. - (onaj koji se istice, junak, heroj, sampion. Ova rec se sastoji od Cur + Adh = Gur + At. Adh je nastavak koji se stavlja da bi se od radnje napravila imenica. Ali takodje znaci i sreca, u smislu posrecilo mu se. Ovo je jako jako staro jer opisuje tacno ono sto se desavalo u najstarije vreme, kad rad, radnja nije uvek imala zeljeni rezultat. Trebalo je da ti se posreci da bi ti rad postao zarada, za-rad, ono sto se dobija ostaje posle rada... Dakle rec Curadh - Kurath znaci neko ko se istice, ali i neko ko je srecan jer je u to staro vreme trebalo biti srecan da bi se istakao necim a ne natakao na nesto...Ovo je takodje prakticno prevod od "upala mu sekira u med", odnosno posrecilo mu se...

    Curata (kurata)- Brave. You need to be brave to become hero, brave man, champion. - (hrabar. Potrebno je biti hrabar da bi postao Kurath...)

    Curatacht (kurataht)- Bravery - (hrabrost. Potrebno je biti hrabar da bi postao Kurath..)

    Curca (kurka)- Crest particularly on cockerels. Cockerels were always associated with hpalic deities as part of fertility cults. - (kresta. Ova rec se sastoji od Cur + Ca = Kur + gde se nesto nalazi, ka. Ono sto gura, strci,ka, na...)

    Curcai, Cuircin (kurkai, kurkin)- A bird with a crest, cockerel. - (ptica sa krestom, petao.

    Cùr (kuur) - To scold, to rebuke. In Serbian we have the same expression for to cu*k and to scold, to rebuke which is "karati" literally hitting with a "d*ck". Maybe here penis is seen as a stick. maybe originally any scolding, rebuking involved hitting with a stick. - (Karati, prekoriti, grditi. Mozda od garati, izmlatiti garom motkom??? U juznoj srbiji se kaze karati za terati, prekarati, prekardasiti za preterati. A tera se motkom, neki put govnjivom...)

    This is an incredible word cluster which will become very important once we arrive to pre Hellenic Greece, where we will arrive following our people of Crom Dubh.

    Who were these people who lived on Corca Dhuibhne? This is what wiki says about them:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne
    The Corcu Duibne was a notable kingdom in prehistoric and medieval County Kerry, Ireland which included the Dingle Peninsula, the Iveragh Peninsula and connecting lands. The tribe belonged to the Érainn and claimed descent from the legendary Conaire Mór, possibly making them distant cousins of such far off kingdoms as Dál Riata in Ulster and Scotland, as well as the closer Múscraige and Corcu Baiscind.[1] All the tribes belonged to the Síl Conairi of legend and ultimately traced their descent from the Clanna Dedad.

    So Corcu Duibne, worshipped Crom Dubh, lived on Dubh's penis, were the sead of Dubh and were cousins of Dál Riata.
    Corcu Duibne were noted creators of ogham inscriptions, with over one third of all Irish inscriptions found in their region,[3] the existence of the Corcu Duibne is attested as early as the 5th century.[4]
    The etymology of the word ogam or ogham remains unclear and has no meaning in Gaelic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham

    But ogam has clear etymology in Serbian. "Kam, Kamen" means stone in Serbian. "o" can among other things mean on, on something. "o kam" means on stone. So Ogam, Okam means on stone, writing on stones. What is interesting is that most ogam inscription represent names of people and their ancestors. Ogam stones are clearly either grave marks or tribute marks, or curse marks. In Serbian word for "read" is "čitaj" pronounced cheetay. This is a compound word composed from "čij + taj" pronounced cheeytay meaning "who(se) is this". whose stone is this? whose mark is this? finding out who this is was the point of reading.
    Ogam inscriptions tell us Corcu Duibne claimed descent from a female ancestor DOVINIA.

    Or maybe from crom dubh.
    The Iron Age mountaintop fortress Caherconree, preserving the name of the legendary Cú Roí, a cousin of Conaire Mór, is found on the Dingle Peninsula, the name of which in Modern Irish is Corca Dhuibhne.

    So we are back with our Wolf king Cu Roi. Who is this wolf king, "a warrior with superhuman abilities and a master of disguise possessed of magical powers"? The king of the land where they write "o kam" and worship Crom Dubh? The king who chooses Cú Chulainn as his champion, refuses to fight him and then gets killed by him only to be revenged by his son called Lugaid mac Con Roí (lugh the son of the wolf king)?
    Caherconree is a stone ringfort that sits two-thirds of the way up its southwestern shoulder, overlooking the mountain road called Bóthar na gCloch ("road of the stones").[1] The ringfort is surrounded on three sides by steep cliffs. In Irish mythology this is the fort of Cú Roí mac Dáire, who was able to make it spin around at night to stop any attackers from finding the entrance.[1] In the story of Aided Con Roí, a king's daughter called Bláthnat is kidnapped and taken to the fort by Cú Roí. She is rescued by her lover, Cú Chulainn.[1] Bláthnat signals to Cú Chulainn that the time is right to attack by pouring milk in a stream. This stream is now called the Finglas (from an Fhionnghlaise meaning "the white stream")[1] and its source is close to the remains of the ringfort.
    There is a rock feature on the mountain called Fin MacCool's Chair,[3] which is named after the mythical figure Fionn mac Cumhaill.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caherconree
    Bláthnat ("Little flower"),[1] sometimes Bláthíne,[2] is a character in early Irish literature, a king's daughter, wife of the warrior Cú Roí and the lover of his rival Cú Chulainn.

    Her father is either Mend[3] of Inis Fer Falga (identified as the Isle of Man), Iuchna,[4] Conchobar mac Nessa,[5] or Midir, the fairy king of Brí Léith (located in County Westmeath).
    Her father's kingdom was invaded by warriors of the Red Branch of Ulster, led by Cú Roí and Cú Chulainn. The raid led to her capture, along with several cattle and a magic cauldron. Despite her being in love with Cú Chulainn, she was chosen by Cú Roí as his personal spoil and she therefore married him, leading to a dispute between the two warriors. This ended with Cú Chulainn being shaved and humiliated by Cú Roí.[6]
    Later, she betrayed her husband to his enemies, pouring milk into the River Finglas (Finnglas) as a signal that he was at home. Subsequent to this action, Cú Roí was slain by Cú Chulainn. In revenge, Cú Roí's poet Ferchertne, threw both himself and Blathnát from a cliff.
    Bláthnat's floral name and the story of her conspiracy have been compared to those of Blodeuwedd in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi, Math Uab Mathonwy.[7]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bl%C3%A1thnat
    Blodeuwedd or Blodeuedd, (Middle Welsh composite name from blodeu 'flowers, blossoms' + gwedd 'face, aspect, appearance': "flower face"), is the wife of Lleu Llaw Gyffes in Welsh mythology, made from the flowers of broom, meadowsweet and the oak by the magicians Math and Gwydion, and is a central figure in the fourth branch of the Mabinogi.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blodeuwedd
    Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈɬəɨ ˈɬau ˈɡəfes], sometimes misspelled Llew Llaw Gyffes) is a hero of Welsh mythology. He appears most prominently in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi, the tale of Math fab Mathonwy, which tells the tale of his birth, his marriage, his death, his resurrection and his accession to the throne of Gwynedd. He is a warrior and magician, invariably associated with his uncle Gwydion.
    He is widely understood to be the Welsh equivalent of the Irish Lugh and the Gaulish Lugus. It has been suggested that Lleu, like Pryderi, is related to the divine son figure of Mabon ap Modron.[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lleu_Llaw_Gyffes

    So if Bláthnat is Blodeuwedd then Cu Roi, the wolf king is Lleu Llaw Gyffes or Lugh or Crom Dubh.
    The 8th-century text known as The Expulsion of the Déisi attributes to the Corcu Duibne an eponymous founder, Corc Duibne, a scion of the branch of the Érainn royal line called the Síl Conairi, after Conaire Mór. In particular, the later "B version" of the text includes a lengthy episode describing Corc's birth and childhood deeds. Corc and his twin brother Cormac are born of incest to Coirpre Músc (a quo Múscraige) and Duihind, children of Conaire Cóem, a descendant of Conaire Mór. Their conception causes the crops to fail, and the people determine to immolate them to remove their curse. However, a druid steps in and offers to take Corc to an offshore island so that the abomination is out of Ireland. Reciting a poem predicting great things for Corc's descendants, the druid and his wife Boí take the boy to the remote island of Inis Boí. Every morning for the next year, Boí performs a purification ritual in which she gives Corc an ablution while he is seated on the back of an otherworldly white cow with red ears. Finally one morning Corc's curse leaves him and enters the cow, who jumps into the ocean and turns to stone, becoming the rock of Bó Boí. Boí takes Corc to his grandmother, Sárait, daughter of Conn Cétchathach, and eventually convinces her to take him back.[9]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne

    This is almost exact copy of an ancient Hittite ritual for warding off plagues and famines. Originally the king was burnt or in some other way sacrificed because the king was seen as being responsible for both good and bad fortune of the country. In later years, instead of sacrificing the king, a double would be chosen from a foreign slaves to represent the king. He would be dressed and adorned like a king and then proclaim the king. An animal, usually bull or cow was used then as a sacrificial animal which the false king would sacrifice to propitiate the gods. The false king would then be expelled from the country back to his own country in order to bring the bad luck and god's wrath with him. How did this ritual arrive in Ireland? Remember all the connections between the Irish, the Serbs and the Hittites we have already found and which all point towards bregians, frigians, frisians, brigantes?
    When he is older Corc is sent to serve as hostage in the court of Cormac mac Airt, King of Tara. There he is fostered by Óengus Gaíbúaibthech, a leader of the Déisi. When Óengus and his people are expelled from Tara over a bloody dispute with the king's son, Corc absconds from hostageship and joins his foster-father, fighting beside him in many battles. Eventually the Déisi wander to the southern coast, and come to the island where Corc was reared. He tries to convince them to settle there, but they elect to move farther north. Corc remains, and founds his dynasty.[10]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne

    Who are the Déisi?
    The Déisi were a class of peoples in ancient and medieval Ireland. The term is Old Irish, and derives from the word déis, meaning "vassal" or "subject"; in its original sense, it designated groups who were vassals or rent-payers to a landowner.[1] Later, it became a proper name for certain septs and their own subjects throughout Ireland.[2] The various peoples listed under the heading déis shared the same status in Gaelic Ireland, and had little or no actual kinship, though they were often thought of as genetically related.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi

    So Déisi were dispersed subdued people who "were often thought of as genetically related"?!

    Were Déisi the original inhabitants of Ireland, the non Gaels who fell into vassal state after Ireland was conquered by the Gaels? Was Corc Duibne, the seed of dubh, one of the Déisi and this is why he is fostered by Óengus Gaíbúaibthech, a leader of the Déisi? Is this why there is such overlap between the land of Déisi and the land of Laigin both in Ireland and in Wales?

    472px-Britain.Deisi.Laigin.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    These next two Serbian words will help us shed more light on Crom Dubh? :)

    First word is Kurjak (pronounced Kuryak) - big, terrible wolf.

    The main word used for wolf in Serbian is "vuk" or "vlk". These words come from "voulk" or "vouluk", the same word from which the Irish work " faolchú" comes from, and is based on onomatopoeic sound of wolf howling.

    The word "kurjak" however doesn't have clear etymology. The accepted one is that it comes from "kur + jak" = "penis + strong". This etymology connects virility with bloodthirstiness in a sense that viral man fu*ks what ever he can catch, in the same way bloodthirsty wolf kills what ever it can catch. This clearly connects death and procreation. Serbian mythological ancestor is "Hromi Daba", "hromi vuk", crooked wolf. Some people explain this crookedness as a description of an angle of an erect penis. Hromi daba, Dabog is indeed at the same time the god of the underworld, the dead and the god of fertility.

    Is it possible that Cu Roi or Cu Ri, the wolf king is Hromi daba, crooked wolf, Crom Dubh?
    Is Kurjak Ku ri jak = Cu ri ach?

    Are the erect stones connected with Crom Dubh symbols of the erect penis? Here is an interesting description of a Killycluggin stone believed to be representation of Crom Cruach, the name of the fertility face of Crom Dubh. When excavated and placed upright on its flat base, it was found to lean obliquely to the left from the vertical, perhaps explaining the name Crom, "crooked". :
    A decorated stone which has been interpreted by some as the cult image of Crom Cruach was found at Killycluggin, County Cavan, in 1921 (Site number 93, Killycluggin townland, “Archaeological Inventory of County Cavan”, Patrick O’Donovan, 1995, p. 19). O'Kelly, however, refers to this image as Crom Dubh.[5] Roughly dome-shaped and covered in Iron Age La Tène designs, it was discovered broken in several pieces and partly buried close to a Bronze Age stone circle, inside which it probably once stood.[6] The site has several associations with St. Patrick. Nearby is Tobar Padraig (St. Patrick's Well), and Kilnavert Church, which is said to have been founded by the saint. Kilnavert was originally called Fossa Slécht or Rath Slécht, from which the wider Magh Slécht area was named.
    Although now much damaged, the stone can be reconstructed from the different surviving pieces. At the base of the stone there were four rectangular adjoining panels measuring 90 cm each in width giving a circumference of 3m 60 cm when it was first carved. The height of each panel was about 75 cm. When excavated and placed upright on its flat base, it was found to lean obliquely to the left from the vertical, perhaps explaining the name Crom, "bent, crooked". The Killycluggin Stone, as it is known, is now in the Cavan County Museum, while a replica stands near the road about 300 metres from the original site.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crom_Cruach

    Second word is Kura, Kurava, Kurva - whore

    Does the name of the Crom Dubh's consort Corra, actually mean whore and is miss pronunciation of Kurva, Korva, kora?

    St Brendan's mother's name was Cara. Here is what Wiktionary says about it:
    From Old Irish cara (“friend, relation”) (compare Scottish Gaelic caraid, Manx carrey), from Proto-Celtic *karant- (“friend”), from Proto-Indo-European *ka- (“to like, desire”) (compare Latin cārus, English charity, whore).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cara#Irish
    cārus m (feminine cāra, neuter cārum); first/second declension - dear, beloved
    Etymology - Proto-Indo-European *kāro- (English whore), akin to Sanskrit (kāma, “love”).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carus#Latin
    kurva f - (vulgar) whore (prostitute)
    From Proto-Slavic *kury

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kurva
    From Proto-Indo-European *kowr-. Cognate with Latin caurio.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Slavic/kury#Proto-Slavic

    So basically Cara comes from the same root which gave us word whore. The ultimate root is given as Proto-Indo-European "kowr" but with no meaning. But we know the meaning of "kowr" and we know that it is actually "kur, gur" meaning to stick in, what is stuck in during sawing seed or sperm. And we know that "Proto-Indo-Europeans" who gave us this root were old Serbs and Irish. So the root is "kur" meaning penis. So cara comes from cora which comes from cura which means whore, the desired one and ultimately the fuc*ed one, the one we have stuck our kur into.

    Kara is another slang word for penis in Serbian. Karati means to fu*k.

    If Hromi Daba, Crom Dubh was at the same time the male deity of death and procreation, was Corra, Cara, Cura also female deity of both death and procreation? I believe that she was and i will talk about it soon.


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