2020/21 NBA season + Olympics

ButtersSuki · 05-05-2021 11:54am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Cleveland and Toronto have won championships in the last 5 years, not two of the bigger markets.

Owners have to play the game within the current landscape. If you run your team well you can create attractive landing spots for a duo of stars to arrive and make their championship run. But yes, the old system where you could run your team into the ground before being bailed out back to relevancy because a super star landed to your lottery pick is gone. The Pelicans have wasted two years of Zion, they don’t have forever nor should they be entitled to it.

We’re also having this conversation in the context of the currently qualified playoff teams being: Phoenix, Utah, LAC, Philly, Brooklyn and Milwaukee. Seems reasonably diverse!

Ultimately owners are getting theirs. Everyone is making plenty of money. The people doing the work should have a large degree of control over where they ply their trade. I doubt anyone here would accept long term constraints on where they can work, so why should we expect it of athletes?

Not really comparing like with like. Pull a James Harden at work and you'd be fired. Work won't pay you indefinitely if you fail to perform or if you're injured(sick) and let's be honest, for all but the very few of us work doesn't pay us life changing money that provides for generational wealth.

pjohnson · 05-05-2021 12:25pm

Tbf I do find some of the ideas behind trading a bit unfair to players.

Like you might happily sign with the Pelicans for 3 years then you maybe have a family, hope to settle down etc. etc.

Then suddenly you are sent to Portland because of salary matching and you dont get much say and you didn't actually sign a contract with Portland ever but thats your new employer.

LuckyLloyd · 05-05-2021 12:44pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Not really comparing like with like. Pull a James Harden at work and you'd be fired. Work won't pay you indefinitely if you fail to perform or if you're injured(sick) and let's be honest, for all but the very few of us work doesn't pay us life changing money that provides for generational wealth.

Well the players are the key component to the creation of the revenue that justifies the salaries that generate that wealth. And it’s an issue of scarcity, supply and demand - the owners want the best players on their franchises because it boosts their piece of the pie. So yeah, they get paid more because they generate more and have a unique talent.

If you had the leverage in your industry that James Harden has in his you may be able to get away with all sorts of things.

The owners essentially get a half decade if they draft a star. They also get the ability to pay said star more than any other team can thereafter. Surely that is more than enough? LeBron and others (because LeBron wasn’t the first) have taken back control of the second half of their careers with shorter contracts and more player options. But they have to be very good for very long to really exercise that power.

I personally think there’s a real whack of ‘the good old days were better’ off the arguments against player power. Once Pierce, KG and Allen got together in 2007 the landscape was changed forever. You can choose to dislike Harden and KD, but they have created a new super power. It’s exciting!

jk23 · 05-05-2021 12:52pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well the players are the key component to the creation of the revenue that justifies the salaries that generate that wealth. And it’s an issue of scarcity, supply and demand - the owners want the best players on their franchises because it boosts their piece of the pie. So yeah, they get paid more because they generate more and have a unique talent.

If you had the leverage in your industry that James Harden has in his you may be able to get away with all sorts of things.

The owners essentially get a half decade if they draft a star. They also get the ability to pay said star more than any other team can thereafter. Surely that is more than enough? LeBron and others (because LeBron wasn’t the first) have taken back control of the second half of their careers with shorter contracts and more player options. But they have to be very good for very long to really exercise that power.

I personally think there’s a real whack of ‘the good old days were better’ off the arguments against player power. Once Pierce, KG and Allen got together in 2007 the landscape was changed forever. You can choose to dislike Harden and KD, but they have created a new super power. It’s exciting!

I think it's a good thing that the players have more power...my point is more of a sporting one. The formation of super teams like you correctly pointed out the Celtics started in 07.

I think it was better in in the old days so to speak as the alot of the teams generally had one superstar or two max. Now you might have 3/4 on one team.

Look at LeBron teaming up with Wade and Bosh, Kd going to the warriors and Harden to the nets ....Then you have LeBron claiming to be the best ever player after teaming up with two players who were in the top 6 of his draft lottery and leaving his drafted team in comparison to Kobe or MJ

LuckyLloyd · 05-05-2021 1:02pm

jk23 wrote: »

I think it's a good thing that the players have more power...my point is more of a sporting one. The formation of super teams like you correctly pointed out the Celtics started in 07.

I think it was better in in the old days so to speak as the alot of the teams generally had one superstar or two max. Now you might have 3/4 on one team.

Look at LeBron teaming up with Wade and Bosh, Kd going to the warriors and Harden to the nets ....Then you have LeBron claiming to be the best ever player after teaming up with two players who were in the top 6 of his draft lottery and leaving his drafted team in comparison to Kobe or MJ

Well Kobe and MJ had plenty of help, and plenty of stars alongside them.

I think all that’s really happened is that players have taken on greater agency in team building. MJ wasn’t responsible for the team that was built around him. The owner put in a GM and Coach who built the team around him. Players play, coaches coach and GMs hire and fire.

Now the players have a larger degree of control over the third part. GMs are responsible for clearing as much space as possible, loading the gun with multiple bullets. But the stars form relationships and choose which platform they go to. I struggle to see why, philosophically, it should be any other way? The players depend on each other on the court. They need to have the relationship. They shouldn’t have to ask a GM for help and cross their fingers on who gets signed.

jk23 · 05-05-2021 2:13pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well Kobe and MJ had plenty of help, and plenty of stars alongside them.

I think all that’s really happened is that players have taken on greater agency in team building. MJ wasn’t responsible for the team that was built around him. The owner put in a GM and Coach who built the team around him. Players play, coaches coach and GMs hire and fire.

Now the players have a larger degree of control over the third part. GMs are responsible for clearing as much space as possible, loading the gun with multiple bullets. But the stars form relationships and choose which platform they go to. I struggle to see why, philosophically, it should be any other way? The players depend on each other on the court. They need to have the relationship. They shouldn’t have to ask a GM for help and cross their fingers on who gets signed.

I agree with you about Kobe, he got Pau Gasol and his mini superteam in 2012 with Nash and Howard. However I think MJ only had Pippen/H.Grant who were drafted there and Rodman was coming to the end of his career. Kukoc was unknown in the USA at the time.

I agree with you about the players having more power I suppose I wish they would choose a franchise that is not already stacked with superstars as it would be much more exciting to see 10/12 teams competing rather than 3/4 who can realistically win...

eagle eye · 05-05-2021 9:03pm

Yeah and Steve Kerr gets no credit, he was crucial to that team with his prowess on the outside draining three pointers and his general play.

Coneygree · 06-05-2021 7:21am

It'd be great if Anthony Edwards develops into a real star.

ButtersSuki · 06-05-2021 11:12am

Dallas, Portland and Lakers tied again. That Portland LAL game this week is huge.

pjohnson · 07-05-2021 8:00am

Davis twisting his ankle and only lasting one quarter against Clippers.

LuckyLloyd · 07-05-2021 1:37pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Davis twisting his ankle and only lasting one quarter against Clippers.

season over

jk23 · 07-05-2021 1:49pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

season over

I think he is going to play tonight versus the Blazers...I still think write off the Lakers at your peril. When they are healthy in the playoffs they will be very difficult to beat in 7...

LuckyLloyd · 07-05-2021 3:51pm

The pair of them are not healthy and even if they both technically get on the court they don’t have enough game time in the legs.

We’ll see if they can come back at it again next year.

Opens the playoffs up, so that’s good.

jk23 · 07-05-2021 6:27pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The pair of them are not healthy and even if they both technically get on the court they don’t have enough game time in the legs.

We’ll see if they can come back at it again next year.

Opens the playoffs up, so that’s good.

Do you think so? They are long odds at the bookies was going to put a few pound on the at 4/1 which is a very good price.

Jazz and Suns don't have the experience. Murray is huge loss for the Nuggets and Clippers just don't have it for whatever reason.

LuckyLloyd · 07-05-2021 6:46pm

jk23 wrote: »

Do you think so? They are long odds at the bookies was going to put a few pound on the at 4/1 which is a very good price.

Jazz and Suns don't have the experience. Murray is huge loss for the Nuggets and Clippers just don't have it for whatever reason.

They're already both rushing back because time is up. We saw with LeBron in 2019 that he can't just come back from a layoff straight to his best. I was hopeful that they could have maybe had a stab at it but the reinjuries are complete game over.

There are other factors at play too. I said in the offseason, they were changing too much and I think that has proven correct. Lot of change with very little time between the last game of the Finals and the grind of a new season. Losing the last couple of months to really build up steam as a group has killed it.

I'll be betting on their play in opponents tbh.

jk23 · 07-05-2021 8:57pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They're already both rushing back because time is up. We saw with LeBron in 2019 that he can't just come back from a layoff straight to his best. I was hopeful that they could have maybe had a stab at it but the reinjuries are complete game over.

There are other factors at play too. I said in the offseason, they were changing too much and I think that has proven correct. Lot of change with very little time between the last game of the Finals and the grind of a new season. Losing the last couple of months to really build up steam as a group has killed it.

I'll be betting on their play in opponents tbh.

It doesn't take much for things to swing around, I am sure they have enough to get past a potential play in...
Drummond/Harrell/KCP/Kuzma/Gasol/Tucker...that's still a very strong roster.

The playoffs are played a much different pace and style to the regular season it becomes a much more half court style that will suit them.

qwabercd · 07-05-2021 10:10pm

jk23 wrote: »

It doesn't take much for things to swing around, I am sure they have enough to get past a potential play in...
Drummond/Harrell/KCP/Kuzma/Gasol/Tucker...that's still a very strong roster.

The playoffs are played a much different pace and style to the regular season it becomes a much more half court style that will suit them.

The players you've listed really don't make for a very strong roster.

jk23 · 07-05-2021 10:23pm

qwabercd wrote: »

The players you've listed really don't make for a very strong roster.

I still think they will make the conference finals as they have experience as well from last year and have been strong defensively all year.

Howard and Rondo are big losses to them as they played very well in the playoffs for them last year...

LuckyLloyd · 08-05-2021 9:00am

qwabercd wrote: »

The players you've listed really don't make for a very strong roster.

We’ve actually proven over the past 6 weeks that it’s a sub .500 roster infact.

jk23 · 08-05-2021 2:15pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We’ve actually proven over the past 6 weeks that it’s a sub .500 roster infact.

The blazers have a very tough schedule to end the regular season, so that might just get the Lakers the 6th seed then it's all on how LeBron recovers...

ButtersSuki · 09-05-2021 7:41pm

jk23 wrote: »

The blazers have a very tough schedule to end the regular season, so that might just get the Lakers the 6th seed then it's all on how LeBron recovers...

They're not catching either Portland or Dallas tbh. Both are 2 games ahead and both hold the tiebreak over the Lakers (so effectively 3 games ahead) and there's just 5 (4 in Portland's case) games remaining. It's not happening.

ButtersSuki · 09-05-2021 7:49pm

Steph had 49 last night in just 29mins before Kerr did the usual and took him out. I'd honestly love to see him just once when he's in this kinda form be let loose to go for a career high and see how high he could go points wise.

chopperbyrne · 09-05-2021 8:50pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Steph had 49 last night in just 29mins before Kerr did the usual and took him out. I'd honestly love to see him just once when he's in this kinda form be let loose to go for a career high and see how high he could go points wise.

He's had so many injuries though. When you're cruising to a win, why risk it.

He'll definitely get more minutes in the playoffs, if they make it.

ButtersSuki · 09-05-2021 11:04pm

Boston with another bad loss tonight. Down 20 very early against Miami and never recovered; ignore the final score line as it’s not an accurate reflection of the game. I know they’ve had more games lost to Covid then any other team but this really is a disaster. Boston as a 7 seed with 2 All Stars? Embarrassing TBH.

Gregk961 · 09-05-2021 11:28pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Steph had 49 last night in just 29mins before Kerr did the usual and took him out. I'd honestly love to see him just once when he's in this kinda form be let loose to go for a career high and see how high he could go points wise.

I've seen plenty of games where I'm thinking "This is it, Kerr is leaving him out there and he is going to put up 80" but it just never seems to happen. I will never tire of watching him, it's just an absolute pleasure.

Gave up "supporting" teams a long time ago but I will be cheering on the warriors in the play-in just so we might get more Steph

chopperbyrne · 10-05-2021 8:36am

What do we all think of the Play In?

Obviously for fans of 7th and 8th seed teams it sucks, but I think it really adds to the excitement at the end of the regular season.

I'd be happy if they kept the 72 game, plus play ins from now on, instead of going back to a regular 82 game season.

LuckyLloyd · 10-05-2021 9:24am

More games, more to play for, more excitement

That said, the reality is 8 seeds aren’t going anywhere in the playoffs, so it’s much ado about nothing. But bring it on like.

chopperbyrne · 10-05-2021 11:31am

It's one and done too, no best of 5 or 7 series.

10-05-2021 11:34am

HOW BOUT DEM BULLS!!!!!!!!!

...turning up when there's **** all to play for.

Corvo · 10-05-2021 11:49am

Lakers v Warriors will be great

Top Dog · 10-05-2021 8:17pm

chopperbyrne wrote: »

It's one and done too, no best of 5 or 7 series.

It is and it isn't.

7th vs 8th - win and you're through, lose and you get a second chance
9th vs 10th - win and you get a second chance at making the 8th seed, lose and you're done

Top Dog · 10-05-2021 8:18pm

Corvo wrote: »

Lakers v Warriors will be great

Wonder will Steve Kerr finally let Steph go bonkers and we see him knock down 15 3's on the way to an 80 point game?

Corvo · 11-05-2021 9:56am

Top Dog wrote: »

Wonder will Steve Kerr finally let Steph go bonkers and we see him knock down 15 3's on the way to an 80 point game?

I think they've handled Curry pretty well in their recent games in the regular season and they ended up blowing them out so I imagine the Lakers are confident of a win, especially now that LeBron is back and AD is basically unplayable.

ButtersSuki · 11-05-2021 11:06am

Lakers are a horrible match up for the Warriors. I can
Only see onecc by winner there even with a cold LeBron.

ButtersSuki · 11-05-2021 11:25am

Top Dog wrote: »

Wonder will Steve Kerr finally let Steph go bonkers and we see him knock down 15 3's on the way to an 80 point game?

Only way I can see Golden State win is if Curry is lights out AND some of the others play above themselves. It’s a horrible match up for them.

ButtersSuki · 11-05-2021 11:29am

Kendrick Perkins talking absolute bollocks again for the last few days. How in the hell does this guy have a job? Honestly if this isn’t tokenism I don’t know what is.

2smiggy · 11-05-2021 2:33pm

Jaylen Brown gone for the rest of the year for the Celtics. They may as well just head away for the holidays now

Coneygree · 11-05-2021 9:31pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Kendrick Perkins talking absolute bollocks again for the last few days. How in the hell does this guy have a job? Honestly if this isn’t tokenism I don’t know what is.

Following the same formula as Bayless and Smith, talk absolute trout about sport, make bizzare takes, get people annoyed and get more clicks of their vids/tweets and more mentions on twitter/forums like (we're doing right now!) and inevitably drive more traffic to their station. Like seriously, who watches Stephen Smith or Skip Bayless for actual intellectual content yet they're probably the two best paid analysts in the game.

ButtersSuki · 11-05-2021 9:52pm

2smiggy wrote: »

Jaylen Brown gone for the rest of the year for the Celtics. They may as well just head away for the holidays now

As a Celtics fan I can tell you even with him they were going nowhere this year.

ButtersSuki · 11-05-2021 9:53pm

Coneygree wrote: »

Following the same formula as Bayless and Smith, talk absolute trout about sport, make bizzare takes, get people annoyed and get more clicks of their vids/tweets and more mentions on twitter/forums like (we're doing right now!) and inevitably drive more traffic to their station. Like seriously, who watches Stephen Smith or Skip Bayless for actual intellectual content yet they're probably the two best paid analysts in the game.

Perkins makes Bayless and Smith look like rocket scientists compared to him.

11-05-2021 9:54pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Kendrick Perkins talking absolute bollocks again for the last few days. How in the hell does this guy have a job? Honestly if this isn’t tokenism I don’t know what is.

Unfortunately, that's the sort of stuff that sells.

At least Skip is an actual fantastic writer when he puts his mind to it.

Carcharodon · 12-05-2021 8:29am

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Only way I can see Golden State win is if Curry is lights out AND some of the others play above themselves. It’s a horrible match up for them.

I agree, terrible matchup for Warriors, AD will have a field day. I have a feeling the Lakers might be ok, LeBron is on the way back and if him and AD are close to healthy they will be hard team to beat
Although I love the possibility of playing the Lakers in the play in tournament it’s a tough reward for getting 8th (hopefully 8th)

What are your thoughts on the play in tournament ?, I’ve been on the fence, but I do think it would probably be a good decision for the future. I think it makes things more interesting. Teams will be less inclined to tank so early, it still highly favors 7th and 8th teams while giving 9th and 10th fair chance. Gone will be the days of teams in 9th seed in the West winning more games than the 5th seed in the east but not getting a shot at playoffs. I highly doubt it will ever affect the likely outcome of winner of any of those teams will never actually win, winner usually finish in top two of regular season, Lakers this year could be an outlier but in general I think it would hold true.

ButtersSuki · 12-05-2021 12:23pm

Carcharodon wrote: »

I agree, terrible matchup for Warriors, AD will have a field day. I have a feeling the Lakers might be ok, LeBron is on the way back and if him and AD are close to healthy they will be hard team to beat
Although I love the possibility of playing the Lakers in the play in tournament it’s a tough reward for getting 8th (hopefully 8th)

What are your thoughts on the play in tournament ?, I’ve been on the fence, but I do think it would probably be a good decision for the future. I think it makes things more interesting. Teams will be less inclined to tank so early, it still highly favors 7th and 8th teams while giving 9th and 10th fair chance. Gone will be the days of teams in 9th seed in the West winning more games than the 5th seed in the east but not getting a shot at playoffs. I highly doubt it will ever affect the likely outcome of winner of any of those teams will never actually win, winner usually finish in top two of regular season, Lakers this year could be an outlier but in general I think it would hold true.

I like it. I'm surprised how much I like it TBH. It's made the last 2 months of the regular season way more exciting than usual, and made what would normally be the least interesting part of the season very engaging from a fan's point of view. It also allows teams who've had injuries early in the season a chance to recover and teams post All Star break (and trades potentially) to go for it in a way they wouldn't normally do.

The permutations are still crazy with less than a week to play, it's been really good. It's also had an interesting impact on the 1-6 races with various jockeying for match ups going on.

The number of dead rubbers is way down compared to usual and for that alone it's been great. March and April NBA isn't always good pre-Play Offs from a competitive point of view but this year it has been.

I also do think it increases the odds of a 7 and 8 seed beating a 1 or a 2 for this reason - they'll be primed and ready for game play physically in a way that a 7 or 8 seed normally isn't (due to the uncompetiveness that normally resides in the last few weeks). Plus they're playing with house money basically.

I hope it stays.

ButtersSuki · 12-05-2021 7:06pm

GS have, with minimal attention, beaten the 1 and 2 seeds in the West in consecutive games this week. They’re balling. Such a shame they’ll play the worst possible match-up in LA.

Gregk961 · 12-05-2021 10:34pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

GS have, with minimal attention, beaten the 1 and 2 seeds in the West in consecutive games this week. They’re balling. Such a shame they’ll play the worst possible match-up in LA.

You would expect them to reach the playoffs proper even if they lose to LA(which seems very likely). They could snag a win or two against Utah. Could be a good series if they can maintain this form

ButtersSuki · 14-05-2021 7:49am

Covington misses 2 FTs with 4.4 seconds left that would have put Portland up 3, then Booker hits 2 of his own with 0.9 left to win by 1. Portland slide to 5th as a result. Had they won they would have locked in a play off spot.

Edit: what I should have written on this is it was a BS call.

Throw in the THT travel game winner against Houston and the conspiracy theorists have fun.

ButtersSuki · 15-05-2021 12:59pm

GS and Memphis rest all the big boys last night for the match up tomorrow night. Whoever wins gets the 8. I heavily favour GS.

ButtersSuki · 15-05-2021 5:09pm

Jesus, Ben Golliver is leaving the Open Floor Podcast.

I really like his work, very sad to hear this.

jk23 · 15-05-2021 5:55pm

LeBron James back this evening Vs Pacers

ButtersSuki · 16-05-2021 2:54pm

All to play for today for LAL, Portland, GS, and Memphis in the west; and for Charlotte, Washington, and Indiana in the East.

And that’s just the play in positions.

2020/21 NBA season + Olympics

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