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Senior Garda suspended from duty.

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13

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    #62
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    I don't know if you're being disingenuous or you just weren't following the thread of the discussion. I didn't call for him to lose his pay or pension.

    Your statement below leads me to believe that you think he should/will be suspended without pay. That surely would result in him losing out on pay. Being charged makes no difference because being charged doesn't mean that you are guilty of an offence therefore you can only be punished if you are found to have done any wrongdoings either by a GSOC investigation or by the courts.
    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    If he a decision is made to charge I would think this will become suspended without pay.
    I responded to others who raised the point. I would like to see corrupt cops in jail.
    I'm in agreement with you here.
    There is no justifiable reason for the investigation to not be concluded by the summer and a direction made. The length of court lists is the only valid reason for delays in the final outcome.
    You obviously haven't any experience of dealing with the public/civil service. Even in the private sector, these types of investigations can take a long time. In this case it could take a very very very long time. And that's even before it goes before the courts (if warranted).


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    #63
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Your statement below leads me to believe that you think he should/will be suspended without pay.

    I was responding to your post #45 where you thought he shouldn't be kept on pay while suspended. My thinking is that at the point where the investigation is only beginning that it would be unfair and they would not be able to stop his pay.
    My comment then was for people such as yourself that are fixated on the whole pay/pension thing that they may be able to if it escalated to him being charged and before the courts, then stop his pay. You contradicted me on that and as I am not sure on that point I was and am happy to concede it to you. I happen to know that this man is of considerable means even independent of his remuneration as a high ranking garda. Hence I know the financial ins and outs are of little relevance to him. The potential loss of reputation for him if convicted and the potential penalties a court may apply are highly significant to him. And should be to everyone else. In short and repeating myself I don't give a fcuk about the financial side of it. They can double his wages and pension for all I care. I think it is a good sign that there are now criminal investigations into high ranking gardai. If this trend continues you will soon true reform. Whether they keep their pay or not when they face the prospect of standing in the dock and in jeopardy of custodial sentences a lot of the heretofor shenanigans will stop.


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    #64
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    I was responding to your post #45 where you thought he shouldn't be kept on pay while suspended.

    Ahhhhh. Crossed wires here my friend.

    I wasn't suggesting that he should be suspended without pay.

    I was responding to someone saying that he can't retire while suspended.

    My point was long the lines that of course he could retire while being suspended if he reached the required age. Maybe I didn't word it clear enough.

    My thinking is that at the point where the investigation is only beginning that it would be unfair and they would not be able to stop his pay.
    Agree with you here 100%


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    #65
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    Well GSOC seem to think it's true.

    Maybe they're lying?


    they might be , or then again they might not know what they are talking about which is the usual with them

    alleging bugging when it as the internet cafe across the street
    bolloxing up the simplest of investigations repeatedly
    making inaccurate and badly researched statements
    not being capable of doing their jobs


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    #66
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    they might be , or then again they might not know what they are talking about which is the usual with them

    alleging bugging when it as the internet cafe across the street
    bolloxing up the simplest of investigations repeatedly
    making inaccurate and badly researched statements
    not being capable of doing their jobs

    I take it you're of the view then that AGS have cooperated with GSOC and that it is GSOC itself that is the problem. Do you think it's necessary to reconstitute a policing ombudsman from the ground up? Is the current one non reformable or fit for purpose?


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    #67
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,797 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    Using a term of expression. As you probably know.

    You maintain the investigation file will not be completed in nine months time?

    Can you explain the delay?

    Previous similar situations, probable injunctive action by the subject individual, lack of cooperation by supporting witnesses (who will want a tribunal and their own SCs paid for)

    Take your pick.


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    #68
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    Drew Harris making a strong point here. Good to see.

    Only good to see if there is a case. If he has suspended someone on the basis of a spurious allegation he will lose any goodwill he may have


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    #69
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    We need a seperate police force to investigate or a strongly protected division within the police force reporting to the minister of justice and not the commissioner ( no problem with the present incumbent but it’s clearly pot luck who you get).

    This force would have the rights to investigate, as a criminal act, actions of the Gardai but preferably wouldn’t themselves be the gardai.

    Ireland has one police force so we can’t have the FBI investigating a local force, or the metropolitan police investigating Yorkshire police.

    No reciprocity.


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    #70
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Edgware wrote: »
    Only good to see if there is a case. If he has suspended someone on the basis of a spurious allegation he will lose any goodwill he may have

    There’s probably a case, then.


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    #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It appears to me, that the new commissioner is very swayed by the media.....

    Don't get me wrong, I believe the commissioner should suspend a member if he sees fit, but this is the second time in a number of weeks that I have seen him bend to media pressure.


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    #72
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    bubblypop wrote: »
    It appears to me, that the new commissioner is very swayed by the media.....

    Don't get me wrong, I believe the commissioner should suspend a member if he sees fit, but this is the second time in a number of weeks that I have seen him bend to media pressure.

    The media reports came after the suspensions as far as I can see.


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    #73
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    I take it you're of the view then that AGS have cooperated with GSOC and that it is GSOC itself that is the problem. Do you think it's necessary to reconstitute a policing ombudsman from the ground up? Is the current one non reformable or fit for purpose?


    There are a lot of issues with communication between GSOC and Gardaí but it's completely wrong for GSOC to put that all down to Gardaí. They send requests to the wrong people, to the wrong stations, to people on careers breaks, people on maternity, long term sick. Then when they don't get a response it goes in the non-cooperation stats. And that's before you get to the vague nature of the requests and the difficulties that presents, not to mention data protection issues with some evidence. I'm pretty sure this was addressed in the Charleton Tribunal at some stage.


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    #74
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Anyone know what his department as an Assistant Commissioner was? I think someone mentioned HR? Head of HR John Barrett (a civilian) has also been suspended though Im not sure if there is a connection.

    Also HR run Templemore College from where we already know that Garda managers were embezzling taxpayers money into secret bank accounts as well as renting land behind the backs of the OPW and pocketing the proceeds.

    It really is a rotten organisation defined by the behaviours of the most senior of Gardai. Rank & file must be looking on in shock.


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    #75
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    There are a lot of issues with communication between GSOC and Gardaí but it's completely wrong for GSOC to put that all down to Gardaí. They send requests to the wrong people, to the wrong stations, to people on careers breaks, people on maternity, long term sick. Then when they don't get a response it goes in the non-cooperation stats. And that's before you get to the vague nature of the requests and the difficulties that presents, not to mention data protection issues with some evidence. I'm pretty sure this was addressed in the Charleton Tribunal at some stage.

    They write to the depot. Unless the depot is duffed.
    Pregnant members files and exhibits would be in garda stations.


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    #76
    0cp71eyxkb94qf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 198 ✭✭0cp71eyxkb94qf


    But but.. It's only a few bad applidles. All of our brave guards deserve gold medals.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    The media reports came after the suspensions as far as I can see.

    There was reports a couple of days ago about this particular officer being investigated, but still working, days later, commisoner suspends him.
    Same with the strokestown evictions, commissioner came out in defence of his members, few days later & media reports about loyalist groups being involved, commissioner states they are now being investigated.....


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    #78
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    They write to the depot. Unless the depot is duffed.
    Pregnant members files and exhibits would be in garda stations.


    They write directly to members. Members have access to their own files, they are not available to others.


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    #79
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    any garda, no matter what level they're at, deserves to be suspended if there is a genuine allegation made against them.

    no one is above the law.


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    #80
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    they are not available to others.

    Would you like to expand on that


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    #81
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    any garda, no matter what level they're at, deserves to be suspended if there is a genuine allegation made against them.

    no one is above the law.


    Surely it must be investigated to decide if it is genuine.

    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    Would you like to expand on that


    Their files are kept either in a locked drawer or password protected drive.


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    #82
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    When a Garda breaks the law, that means that it is not illegal


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    #83
    tedpan
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭tedpan


    Due for retirement, the report mentions the high court. Maybe it's a clever way to get an additional leaving bonus?


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    #84
    DontThankMe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭DontThankMe


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    Examiner story


    This is the classic disclosure and then revenge template that was revealed in the Maurice McCabe case. A garda discloses wrong doing then there is a botched stitch up job. Garda is attacked in a hotel lobby but let's flip it around and charge him with the attack. With a bit of luck nobody will look at the cctv.


    They used to get away we these stitch ups so easily. The invention of CCTV and Tape Recorders has now posed a major obstacle to the blunt force methods of these not particularly bright, crooks.

    Wow that article is grim reading. Fair play to the guy for not giving in to the pressure and nasty tactics they used against him to try to get him to drop the complaint.

    Hopefully he is fully vindicated and the truth gets out.


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    #85
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    Captain Obvious wrote: »

    Their files are kept either in a locked drawer or password protected drive.

    It may surprise you to learn that you are not the only one with access to your network shared drive Captain. Those are only typed copies of original written statements which are the actual exhibits of evidence. If those exhibits are put beyond the access of management with a single key in possession of one person then that is an unprofessional and negligent practice. What if the key is the lost or the member dies? The drawer or locker will be forced I hear you say. Perhaps that could be avoided if the Superintendent or his staff kept a second key. Or if files were kept and logged into a central location. Either way such incompetent practices are not the fault of GSOC but of AGS. Deliberate or otherwise incompetence it seems to suit obfuscation and delaying tactics quite nicely.


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    #86
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    It may surprise you to learn that you are not the only one with access to your network shared drive Captain. Those are only typed copies of original written statements which are the actual exhibits of evidence. If those exhibits are put beyond the access of management with a single key in possession of one person then that is an unprofessional and negligent practice. What if the key is the lost or the member dies? The drawer or locker will be forced I hear you say. Perhaps that could be avoided if the Superintendent or his staff kept a second key. Or if files were kept and logged into a central location. Either way such incompetent practices are not the fault of GSOC but of AGS. Deliberate or otherwise incompetence it seems to suit obfuscation and delaying tactics quite nicely.


    Control of exhibits is necessary for proving chain of custody and preserving evidence. And while access may be possible, to do so would interfere with the above. Now that might not be so bad if a Garda only dealt with one case at a time but that is not the case. If GSOC or management access the exhibits or files of members for one case they prevent the member being able to stand over everything else for their other cases.


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    #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tedpan wrote: »
    Due for retirement, the report mentions the high court. Maybe it's a clever way to get an additional leaving bonus?

    What kind of additional leaving bonus?


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    #88
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    Control of exhibits is necessary for proving chain of custody and preserving evidence. And while access may be possible, to do so would interfere with the above. Now that might not be so bad if a Garda only dealt with one case at a time but that is not the case. If GSOC or management access the exhibits or files of members for one case they prevent the member being able to stand over everything else for their other cases.

    So tell us all about PEMS, Captain, how does that interfere with the chain of evidence? The drugs, knives, guns etc in PEMS will they be used in Court Cases?

    What are official directions on completed files for archiving? Where do they go? In answering that question you might start to glean that AGS does know how to centrally store in secure locations when it suits them.


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    #89
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    We need a seperate police force to investigate or a strongly protected division within the police force reporting to the minister of justice

    It was the gardai not being answerable to anyone bar whatever chancer de jour was minister for justice that created the problem.


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    #90
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    So tell us all about PEMS, Captain, how does that interfere with the chain of evidence? The drugs, knives, guns etc in PEMS will they be used in Court Cases?


    With a recorded chain of evidence and secure storage.

    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    What are official directions on completed files for archiving? Where do they go? In answering that question you might start to glean that AGS does know how to centrally store in secure locations when it suits them.


    Members keep finished files.


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    #91
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Qualifications:

    Management Course at French Police College at L’Ecole Nationale Superieure de la Police de Saint- Cyr, Au Mont D’OR.

    Strategic Command Course at Bramshill in 2005.

    Cambridge University UK “SCC Cambridge Policing in Contemporary Societies” course at the Institute of Criminology in Cambridge.

    MA History – The Irish Revolution 1912 – 1923 – UCC (to be conferred)

    Professional Diploma in Corporate Governance – UCD (ongoing)

    TOPspoc Course in Police Leadership in the EU

    LLM – Masters Degree in Law - 2013


    MSc - Masters Degree in Police Leadership - 2010

    MBA - Masters Degree in Business Administration, University College Dublin - 1996

    LLB - Bachelor of Laws Hons University of London - 1994

    Post Graduate Diploma in Employment Law in UCD - 2010

    Post Graduate Garda Executive Leadership Diploma at Garda College in conjunction with UCD - 2006

    Post Graduate Diploma in International Arbitration, University College Dublin - 2002

    Post Graduate Diploma in Advanced Management, University College Dublin - 1995

    Post Graduate Diploma in Conflict & Dispute Resolution Studies in Trinity College Dublin - 2011

    Post Graduate Diploma in Project Management, Trinity College Dublin - 2001

    Post Graduate Diploma in Management Information Systems, Irish Management Institute - 2000

    Certificate in Supervisory Management, Irish Management Institute - 19

    So between 2010 and 2011 he earned 2 diplomas and a degree. Needing that many qualifications to back you up suggests to me he is as thick as fook.

    Remind you or anybody?


    * Even before his birth, the future leader of North Korea was triggering miracles. Official biographers say his birth in a cabin on the slopes of Baekdu Mountain in February 1942 was foretold by a swallow and heralded by a double rainbow. When he was born, a new star appeared in the night sky.

    * The first time he picked up a golf club, in 1994, Kim reportedly shot a 38-under par round on North Korea's only golf course, including 11 holes-in-one. He then decided to retire from the sport for ever.

    * Kim has the ability to alter the weather simply through the power of thought.

    * The fledgling leader was a genius as an infant, with official North Korean biographies stating that he had learned to walk at just 3 weeks and was talking at 8 weeks.

    * As a junior high school pupil in Pyongyang, he corrected and chastised his teachers for their incorrect interpretations of history.

    * He designed the Tower of the Juche Idea, a 170-metre tower in the east bank of the River Taedong in central Pyongyang that is topped by a glowing red flame.

    * Kim's official biography also claims that he wrote 1,500 books during his time at Kim Sung Il University, from where he graduated in 1964.

    * According to the Korea Central News Agency, Kim is an expert on all aspects of the film industry and "improved the scripts and guided the production" of the movie "Diary of a Girl Student." His favourite movies are reportedly "Friday the 13th," "Rambo" and anything starring Elizabeth Taylor.

    * Kim reportedly employs a servant to inspect every grain of rice that is served to him. Any with the most minor of flaws is discarded.


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