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Senior Garda suspended from duty.

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24

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    #32
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    A google of his name brings up some Facebook pages on supposed corruption. Which means this is fake news. Russian.

    facebook pages that also mention the likes of joe doocey stephen manning ben gilroy ACT ect

    all well on the far side of sanity


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    #33
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Our police force is a thundering disgrace, barely a week goes by when there's not a story about their seedy goings on.

    The general rank and file do a thankless job, and most of them do it flawlessly, but there's a deep set rot from within, as is evident from all these relentless stories.


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    #34
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,898 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Slasher wrote: »
    "Asst Commissioner Fanning has an impeccable record spanning decades of service, and is highly experienced and respected."

    Piece co-written by Paul Williams. Surprise, surprise.

    He was reported for fraud a few years ago by some other members.


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    #35
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Given the culture of the organisation, there's no way I'd be reporting anybody for anything, that's for sure.

    Protected disclosure me hole.


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    #36
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    Examiner story


    This is the classic disclosure and then revenge template that was revealed in the Maurice McCabe case. A garda discloses wrong doing then there is a botched stitch up job. Garda is attacked in a hotel lobby but let's flip it around and charge him with the attack. With a bit of luck nobody will look at the cctv.


    They used to get away we these stitch ups so easily. The invention of CCTV and Tape Recorders has now posed a major obstacle to the blunt force methods of these not particularly bright, crooks.


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    #37
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    It does go to show that despite the wailing from chuckies, the appointment of Drew Harris is an essential component in removing the weeds that have grown around Garda management. Someone with no previous relationship to members of the force is the only way to make sure that people get brought to account.

    Would Noirín O'Sullivan or Martin Callinan have suspended an AC with 39 years service? No fncking way. They'd have brought him - no doubt a trusted friend - out for a steak dinner to have a chat about the allegation and discuss what they're going to do to make it "go away".

    I would expect a lot more of this stuff over the next five years, and I'd be disappointed if we don't see it.


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    #38
    orourkeda1977
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    He has been a member of An Garda Síochána for 39 years, having joined in 1980, and is due to retire on age grounds in August of this year.



    Nice, due for retirement, they'll give it to him early.

    On full pension with hefty lump sum and no questions asked


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    #39
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Given the culture of the organisation, there's no way I'd be reporting anybody for anything, that's for sure.

    Protected disclosure me hole.

    I believe it didn’t go well for them.


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    #40
    orourkeda1977
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    seamus wrote: »
    It does go to show that despite the wailing from chuckies, the appointment of Drew Harris is an essential component in removing the weeds that have grown around Garda management. Someone with no previous relationship to members of the force is the only way to make sure that people get brought to account.

    Would Noirín O'Sullivan or Martin Callinan have suspended an AC with 39 years service? No fncking way. They'd have brought him - no doubt a trusted friend - out for a steak dinner to have a chat about the allegation and discuss what they're going to do to make it "go away".

    I would expect a lot more of this stuff over the next five years, and I'd be disappointed if we don't see it.

    Despite being the commissioner, surely he cant do this alone.

    Wont he need to co-operation of the department of justice and the court system


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    #41
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The Senior Garda will probably go to the High Court.

    Very unfair to name anyone until they are actually charged with a crime.

    Everyone is entitled to their good name until good solid evidence of wrongdoing is produced and that goes for senior Garda management as well as everyone else.


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    #42
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    tretorn wrote: »
    Very unfair to name anyone until they are actually charged with a crime.
    Being charged with a crime doesn't mean the person is guilty.


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    #43
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    orourkeda1977 wrote: »
    On full pension with hefty lump sum and no questions asked


    Under the ags own rules you can't retire while under disciplinary investigation.
    (You await suspended while this investigation could potentially lead to your dismissal. So the record shows you were sacked for malpractice rather than you handed in your resignation. Although this wouldn't effect your pension)
    They don't seem to enforce that rule though, or haven't in many cases in the past.


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    #44
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    orourkeda1977 wrote: »
    Despite being the commissioner, surely he cant do this alone.

    Wont he need to co-operation of the department of justice and the court system


    The biggest contribution Drew can make is to ensure GSOC receive co-operation from AGS.
    GSOC have consistently said they are obstructed and receive none.

    For what is called an "over sight" body they actually have little or no legal powers. When they receive a complaint or disclosure they have to write a letter to ags and ask nicely for documents and files and information. They are usually left to wait months or years before getting any response. Which will of course a carefully selective response.

    If Harris begins a policy of AGS volunteering to do what they are not legally obliged to do and begin actively assisting GSOC in their investigations then you have some chance of people being held to account. And where AGS or its members are innocent then there is nothing to fear from GSOC having access to the evidence and information it needs. It will only lead to an early clearance of the matter and stand to the reputation and transparency of the force.


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    #45
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    Under the ags own rules you can't retire while under disciplinary investigation.
    (You await suspended while this investigation could potentially lead to your dismissal. So the record shows you were sacked for malpractice rather than you handed in your resignation. Although this wouldn't effect your pension)
    They don't seem to enforce that rule though, or haven't in many cases in the past.

    They can hardly keep you on paid suspension when you are past your retirement date? If they did, you'd be financially better off than if they let you retire.


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    #46
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    They can hardly keep you on paid suspension when you are past your retirement date? If they did, you'd be financially better off than if they let you retire.

    If he a decision is made to charge I would think this will become suspended without pay. At present there is only the commencement of a criminal investigation. Which if not obstructed ought to have a file with the DPP before this man's retirement date next september. He is a wealthy man anyway the dishonorable discharge would hurt him more than the loss of what is (to him) pocket change.


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    #47
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,838 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its not the Marine Corps, no one can be 'dishonourably discharged'. Any previous cases of criminal wrongdoing by serving Gardaí have resulted in dismissal.

    That dismissal obviously ends their service, but it does not remove their pension entitlement accrued up to that point.

    Theres no chance that any investigation / proceedings will be completed by the time Fanning hits automatic retirement age later in the year, so it will be nobody's choice that he departs on full pension entitlement, or not.

    Nothing whatsoever can be done about that unless the law around all public service pensions is changed to make them dependent on conduct. In the meantime theres no point griping about the Guards or anyone else 'looking after each other'


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    #48
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Its not the Marine Corps, no one can be 'dishonourably discharged'.

    Using a term of expression. As you probably know.

    You maintain the investigation file will not be completed in nine months time?

    Can you explain the delay?


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    #49
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    The biggest contribution Drew can make is to ensure GSOC receive co-operation from AGS.
    GSOC have consistently said they are obstructed and receive none.

    For what is called an "over sight" body they actually have little or no legal powers. When they receive a complaint or disclosure they have to write a letter to ags and ask nicely for documents and files and information. They are usually left to wait months or years before getting any response. Which will of course a carefully selective response.

    If Harris begins a policy of AGS volunteering to do what they are not legally obliged to do and begin actively assisting GSOC in their investigations then you have some chance of people being held to account. And where AGS or its members are innocent then there is nothing to fear from GSOC having access to the evidence and information it needs. It will only lead to an early clearance of the matter and stand to the reputation and transparency of the force.

    Well no thats not true raheem .

    GSOC can and do seek warrants to search Garda station lockers and homes of gardai for documents or other things.

    in general its GSOC who are the ones who go months without responding or acting no the gardai which might be due to manpower and resource issues.


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    #50
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    From framing people for murder (Donegal) to large scale penalty points wiping it's fair to say our police force needs a major culture change. Glad to see change is taking place.


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    #51
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    If he a decision is made to charge I would think this will become suspended without pay. At present there is only the commencement of a criminal investigation. Which if not obstructed ought to have a file with the DPP before this man's retirement date next september. He is a wealthy man anyway the dishonorable discharge would hurt him more than the loss of what is (to him) pocket change.

    Nope. He can't be suspended without pay pending the outcome of a trial. That wouldn't be fair procedure. And even if he was convicted, then an investigation etc. would still have to take place. He'll be long retired before this reaches any sort of conclusion. Which means that it won't reach a significant conclusion.

    It might impact his future employment prospects though if he is found to have carried out any wrongdoings and decides he doesn't want to retire with his feet up. He's a very well educated man so one would assume that with a clean record, he would have very good employment prospects.

    This is taken from Garda.ie
    Qualifications:

    Management Course at French Police College at L’Ecole Nationale Superieure de la Police de Saint- Cyr, Au Mont D’OR.

    Strategic Command Course at Bramshill in 2005.

    Cambridge University UK “SCC Cambridge Policing in Contemporary Societies” course at the Institute of Criminology in Cambridge.

    MA History – The Irish Revolution 1912 – 1923 – UCC (to be conferred)

    Professional Diploma in Corporate Governance – UCD (ongoing)

    TOPspoc Course in Police Leadership in the EU

    LLM – Masters Degree in Law - 2013


    MSc - Masters Degree in Police Leadership - 2010

    MBA - Masters Degree in Business Administration, University College Dublin - 1996

    LLB - Bachelor of Laws Hons University of London - 1994

    Post Graduate Diploma in Employment Law in UCD - 2010

    Post Graduate Garda Executive Leadership Diploma at Garda College in conjunction with UCD - 2006

    Post Graduate Diploma in International Arbitration, University College Dublin - 2002

    Post Graduate Diploma in Advanced Management, University College Dublin - 1995

    Post Graduate Diploma in Conflict & Dispute Resolution Studies in Trinity College Dublin - 2011

    Post Graduate Diploma in Project Management, Trinity College Dublin - 2001

    Post Graduate Diploma in Management Information Systems, Irish Management Institute - 2000

    Certificate in Supervisory Management, Irish Management Institute - 1988


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    #52
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    Well no thats not true raheem .

    GSOC can and do seek warrants to search Garda station lockers and homes of gardai for documents or other things.

    in general its GSOC who are the ones who go months without responding or acting no the gardai which might be due to manpower and resource issues.


    Well GSOC seem to think it's true.

    Maybe they're lying?


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    #53
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Nope. He can't be suspended without pay pending the outcome of a trial. That wouldn't be fair procedure.


    The money situation is a red herring. What is important is that he is convicted if warranted. The potential fine he receives court could offset money accrued during a stint of suspension. Just by chance - if a Judge was that way minded.


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    #54
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    The money situation is a red herring. What is important is that he is convicted if warranted. The potential fine he receives court could offset money accrued during a stint of suspension. Just by chance - if a Judge was that way minded.

    I'm not trying to be awkward but the money thing is important. No matter what someone is accused of, they are still entitled to fair process.

    Right now he is innocent until proven guilty. Even if he is charged, he is innocent until proven guilty. And he could well be found to have done nothing wrong.

    As an employer, you can't suspend someone without pay pending the result of an investigation or a court conviction. If you do, you are punishing them when they haven't been convicted of anything. Therefore you haven't given them fair process.

    Yes, he should be convicted if it is warranted, but due process still has to be followed.

    Think of it this way, supposing an allegation was made against you in work. You are suspended without pay for maybe six months or more. Then the allegations against you aren't proven (you are legally innocent), do you think it is right that you should be down 6 months wages?


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    #55
    TCM
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭TCM


    Alrigghtythen wrote:
    He has been a member of An Garda Síochána for 39 years, having joined in 1980, and is due to retire on age grounds in August of this year.

    Alrigghtythen wrote:
    Nice, due for retirement, they'll give it to him early.

    Always works out nicely for them. A big fat pension.


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    #56
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The pension has been contributed to be every public servant from the day they started work.

    This man has given almost four decades of his life to work so would have accrued a lot of pension entitlements.

    He I presume has been suspended on full pay and this is fair, it gives the authorities time to check out what the whistleblower has claimed, everyone is at least entitled to be paid until accusations are proved or disproved.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    He has been a member of An Garda Síochána for 39 years, having joined in 1980, and is due to retire on age grounds in August of this year.



    Nice, due for retirement, they'll give it to him early.

    The man could have retired 9 years ago...... Hardly going to get early retirement!!


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    #58
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be awkward but the money thing is important. No matter what someone is accused of, they are still entitled to fair process.

    Right now he is innocent until proven guilty. Even if he is charged, he is innocent until proven guilty. And he could well be found to have done nothing wrong.


    I don't know if you're being disingenuous or you just weren't following the thread of the discussion. I didn't call for him to lose his pay or pension. I responded to others who raised the point. I would like to see corrupt cops in jail. Give him all the pay he wants. If he's guilty put him in jail. Other people brought up pay and pension. Some people's only interest into a corrupt police force relates to their issues with private sector pensions versus public sector pensions. I think it is of more societal importance than that changing the shady culture in an important pillar of the state. Cutting peoples pay would never clean up AGS anyway. Putting wrong doers in hand cuffs will. I know this man deserves due process and will get it. But if found guilty I hope he is punished in the extreme.

    There is no justifiable reason for the investigation to not be concluded by the summer and a direction made. The length of court lists is the only valid reason for delays in the final outcome.

    Even if he comes out of this ok it is a shot across the bows of the force.
    People not so fortunately close to retirement will have to reflect on their behaviors and the possible dawning of some element of accountability.


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    #59
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    bubblypop wrote: »
    The man could have retired 9 years ago...... Hardly going to get early retirement!!

    Does the new legislation allowing public servants to stay working until the age of 70 should they so wish apply to the Gardaí?


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Does the new legislation allowing public servants to stay working until the age of 70 should they so wish apply to the Gardaí?

    No, they can retire with 30 years service, they must retire at 60, I think maybe management level may get a year or two more.


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    #61
    TCM
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭TCM


    Raheem Euro wrote:
    This is the classic disclosure and then revenge template that was revealed in the Maurice McCabe case. A garda discloses wrong doing then there is a botched stitch up job. Garda is attacked in a hotel lobby but let's flip it around and charge him with the attack. With a bit of luck nobody will look at the cctv.

    Raheem Euro wrote:
    They used to get away we these stitch ups so easily. The invention of CCTV and Tape Recorders has now posed a major obstacle to the blunt force methods of these not particularly bright, crooks.


    Well spotted, dreadful stuff.


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