Home heating automation

DubDani · 23-01-2021 11:16pm

I am considering investing in a Nest or Hive system.

We have 2 Zones, downstairs (5 rads) and upstairs (6 rads) plus hot water. At the moment we have the central (EPH) control unit in the kitchen and two thermostats, in one of the downstairs living rooms and one in the main bedroom upstairs.

Would we replace all three Units or only the two thermostats? If the latter, what wouldn we do with the current central control unit in the kitchen? Remove it or leave it? Don't really fancy a hole in the tiled kitchen wall. ðŸ˜…

Any thoughts much appreciated, incl. which system might be best suited etc.

championc · 24-01-2021 12:00am

Ricey3509 wrote: »

I'm about to pull the trigger on a Tado setup and I'd like a steer if what I've planning makes sense.

I've currently got a single nest controlling the rad's and hot water, can I just order the wireless starter kit and replace the heat link with the Tado wireless receiver?

We've currently got 10 rad's in the house. 3 are in the main living space (open plan) and 2 are towel rad's in ensuite/main bathroom. A couple of questions:

- should I put Smart TRV's on the towel rad's?
- in the main living space, should I put smart trv's on every rad or just one?

Thanks!

Any rad uncontrolled will be exactly that. If you want complete control, then I personally would put TRV's on all rads.

Regarding your open space, you could link all three together but if the space was north to south rather than east to west, then it may make sense to allow one rad to operate separately from another. So only you can know what's best for you

deezell · 24-01-2021 1:02am

DubDani wrote: »

I am considering investing in a Nest or Hive system.

We have 2 Zones, downstairs (5 rads) and upstairs (6 rads) plus hot water. At the moment we have the central (EPH) control unit in the kitchen and two thermostats, in one of the downstairs living rooms and one in the main bedroom upstairs.

Would we replace all three Units or only the two thermostats? If the latter, what wouldn we do with the current central control unit in the kitchen? Remove it or leave it? Don't really fancy a hole in the tiled kitchen wall. &#55357;&#56837;

Any thoughts much appreciated, incl. which system might be best suited etc.

If the stats are wired to the EPH, 2 Tado wired smart stats would be your best solution, leaving the EPH to time HW, with the EPH CH zones now set to always on as the timing function shifts to the Tado stats. If you want HW control on the Tado app also, Tado ext kit will fit over the old EPH location, with one wired Tado stat and one wireless Tado stat replacing the old ones. HW and CH for the one wireless stat are switched in the Tado ext kit receiver, and together with the second wired Tado stat will provide the 3 zone switched live to the existing EPH cables.
Hive stats are wireless, so two hive stats would each have a receiver, one of them with CH and HW control. Both receivers could be wired in place of the existing EPH, not the tidiest solution, or the receivers could be located beside the zone valves and wired directly, leaving the retired EPH to cover the hole.
Same for Nest, the heatlink receivers sited next the valves, they would be untidy looking if you placed them where the EPH was, as you need two, one for each wall stat.
The Drayton wiser 3 channel kit is ideal for this job. Two wireless stats, and a single 3 zone receiver which will fit right where your EPH was, directly wired in its place, with the old wall stats either turned up full or removed and their wires linked together.

DrPhilG · 24-01-2021 10:30pm

Yee haa

Just flogged my slack burner. Ordering up the Drayton kit now.

DubDani · 24-01-2021 10:35pm

deezell wrote: »

If the stats are wired to the EPH, 2 Tado wired smart stats would be your best solution, leaving the EPH to time HW, with the EPH CH zones now set to always on as the timing function shifts to the Tado stats. If you want HW control on the Tado app also, Tado ext kit will fit over the old EPH location, with one wired Tado stat and one wireless Tado stat replacing the old ones. HW and CH for the one wireless stat are switched in the Tado ext kit receiver, and together with the second wired Tado stat will provide the 3 zone switched live to the existing EPH cables.
Hive stats are wireless, so two hive stats would each have a receiver, one of them with CH and HW control. Both receivers could be wired in place of the existing EPH, not the tidiest solution, or the receivers could be located beside the zone valves and wired directly, leaving the retired EPH to cover the hole.
Same for Nest, the heatlink receivers sited next the valves, they would be untidy looking if you placed them where the EPH was, as you need two, one for each wall stat.
The Drayton wiser 3 channel kit is ideal for this job. Two wireless stats, and a single 3 zone receiver which will fit right where your EPH was, directly wired in its place, with the old wall stats either turned up full or removed and their wires linked together.

Thanks for that. Much appreciated. I think the Drayton Wiser covers what I am looking for and seems to be an easy enough install. Also good value on Amazon at around £160.

One question. Will the Drayton also let you set a schedule for the hot water? Read somewhere that it only let's you switch it on/off via the app, but not set a schedule.

savemejebus · 24-01-2021 10:47pm

If you are not sure n a rush keep an eye on Amazon for Drayton offers. They have gone down to £75 a few times in the be past few months

John mac · 24-01-2021 11:03pm

DubDani wrote: »

Thanks for that. Much appreciated. I think the Drayton Wiser covers what I am looking for and seems to be an easy enough install. Also good value on Amazon at around £160.

One question. Will the Drayton also let you set a schedule for the hot water? Read somewhere that it only let's you switch it on/off via the app, but not set a schedule.

yes you can schedule the hot water ,
I got mine for £87 at the end of November . (prob black Friday )
camel camel camel

Drayton Wiser Multi-Zone Smart Thermostat and 2 Smart Radiator Thermostat Kit - Conventional Boilers Only - Heating and Hot Water Control

DrPhilG · 24-01-2021 11:16pm

So Amazon have a kit with 1 room stat and 2 TRVs for £199. Then I can buy an extra room stat for £80 so £280 all in.

Or there is a kit with 2 room stats but no TRVs. But it's only £160, then I can add 2 TRVs at £40 each - £240 altogether.

Am I missing something?

deezell · 25-01-2021 12:40am

DrPhilG wrote: »

So Amazon have a kit with 1 room stat and 2 TRVs for £199. Then I can buy an extra room stat for £80 so £280 all in.

Or there is a kit with 2 room stats but no TRVs. But it's only £160, then I can add 2 TRVs at £40 each - £240 altogether.

Am I missing something?

No, though the UK price of £161.04 plus £80 jumps by an extra £11 for ROI delivery, about 25.5% added instead of Irish VAT if 21% which would only add £2, it's labelled as 'Import fees deposit'. I presume the extra £9 is trousered by customs at our end. I though only VAT was applied, but it seems they are adding an additional fee for processing this of roughly 4.5%. This will bring your total to £251.31, not £240, the price of Brexit? This price is with the same free delivery btw, its not an extra delivery charge.
EDIT
So this import charge will be partiality refunded by Amaxon if you were only liable for VAT, but not import duty. There was a discussion on the bargain alerts thread the other day about the viability of Amazon post brexit, some claiming it was transparent and nearly the same (except for tvs), but I'd be curious to know if this 4.5% extra is ever refunded. They could easily charge 4.5% fee just to tell you that you're not liable for any more than 21% vat. After all, they've always charged €10 to tell you to pay 21% at the post office on non eu imports.

mcgragger · 25-01-2021 12:58am

I've got a baxi boiler with two wall stats and 2 actuator valve controllers in the hotpress beside the cylinder.

Would the Drayton work with that?

I'm a sparks so ok with wiring however plumbing isn't my strong point.

Is it just a case of replacing actuators and timer on boiler.
Id really like to modernise the heating controls but never get around to it

deezell · 25-01-2021 1:23am

mcgragger wrote: »

I've got a baxi boiler with two wall stats and 2 actuator valve controllers in the hotpress beside the cylinder.

Would the Drayton work with that?

I'm a sparks so ok with wiring however plumbing isn't my strong point.

Is it just a case of replacing actuators and timer on boiler.
Id really like to modernise the heating controls but never get around to it

I assume you have 2 CH zones, two stats opening the two motorised valves.
You have a HW cylinder. Your HW cylinder must be gravity heated or pumped. HW heats once the boiler fires for CH or can you set it for HW only.
Is there a timer anywhere in this?
Does this control HW timing as well as CH timing?
Are the wall stats electronic with display, or just mechanical twist ones?

There are a few different configurations possible when not all zones are valved. You wont have to remove the actuators, but you will need to see if their built in boiler relays are wired to fire the boiler when actuated, or if they just open dumb on live from their wall stats, and the boiler is fired by a different live source, a single pin timer or maybe a wall heating controller.
Add a few images if possible.

DrPhilG · 25-01-2021 8:27am

deezell wrote: »

No, though the UK price of Â£161.04 plus Â£80 jumps by an extra Â£11 for ROI delivery, about 25.5% added instead of Irish VAT if 21% which would only add Â£2, it's labelled as 'Import fees deposit'.

Ahh, but this isn't for me at all. No idea where you got that impression. This is all for my aunt in Derry.

mcgragger · 25-01-2021 9:18am

deezell wrote: »

I assume you have 2 CH zones, two stats opening the two motorised valves.
You have a HW cylinder. Your HW cylinder must be gravity heated or pumped. HW heats once the boiler fires for CH or can you set it for HW only.
Is there a timer anywhere in this?
Does this control HW timing as well as CH timing?
Are the wall stats electronic with display, or just mechanical twist ones?

There are a few different configurations possible when not all zones are valved. You wont have to remove the actuators, but you will need to see if their built in boiler relays are wired to fire the boiler when actuated, or if they just open dumb on live from their wall stats, and the boiler is fired by a different live source, a single pin timer or maybe a wall heating controller.
Add a few images if possible.

Cheers I will get a few images today.
The timer is on the boiler anyway - its the standard mechanical inbuilt timer with the little dipswitches.

deezell · 25-01-2021 10:33am

mcgragger wrote: »

Cheers I will get a few images today.
The timer is on the boiler anyway - its the standard mechanical inbuilt timer with the little dipswitches.

Si you set boiler for a particular range of times, then the statss cut the ch zones in and out. Turn down the stats and the boiler only heats the HW when the timer comes on. The ' Actuator valve controllers' you refer to, do you mean the top part of the valve where the valve motor resides, the acual actuator, or are there a couple of devices separate but wired into the valve actuator. Rereading your post, it sounds like you mean there are receiver controllers wired to the actuators, which suggests that the stats are wireless, hence you query on their removal.

deezell · 25-01-2021 10:35am

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ahh, but this isn't for me at all. No idea where you got that impression. This is all for my aunt in Derry.

And you only live 5km away!

DrPhilG · 25-01-2021 10:43am

deezell wrote: »

And you only live 5km away!

7.3 actually!

DrPhilG · 25-01-2021 11:55am

Hopefully won't need the extender plugs but no harm in adding them. Can always return if needed.

If I take the old control off, would you know if I'm likely to need a spark for anything or if its straightforward?

The plumber is going to add a new valve I think for the water.

deezell · 25-01-2021 1:17pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Hopefully won't need the extender plugs but no harm in adding them. Can always return if needed.

If I take the old control off, would you know if I'm likely to need a spark for anything or if its straightforward?

The plumber is going to add a new valve I think for the water.

Only you can decide that. If you don't own a multimeter, or at the very least a phase test screwdriver, or you test mains with a bulb and wire taped to it, I'd say get a sparks.

chris_ie · 25-01-2021 5:48pm

deezell wrote: »

I can see the post motorised valve tap into the downstairs CH circuit from the pump. This I presume is the stove pump. I presume that is the stove HW cylinder circuit with the orange pipe stat on it. This triggers the pump when the hot gravity flow from the stove exceeds a threshold, prior to which it just dissipates heat into the cylinder. I assume that rising inch pipe to the cylinder is the same one which is tapped off to the top side of the pump, pushing hot stove flow through a non return one way valve, visible bottom right of the pump, and into the ground floor CH circuit. Its possible also that the valves and pump are operating on the return flows from the CH and HW, I can't see the flow direction mark on the pump or on on the NR valve under it, but it will work equally well.

Yeah the pipe with the thermostat is labeled flow and the return is the pipe coming out the bottom on the right. The pumps directional arrow points upwards. The pipe that comes out of the pump at the top connects to the return pipe for the stove. (Can see it in image attached) Don't quite understand that bit..

deezell wrote: »

Those Myson valves have grey/orange wire relay connections for firing the boiler, is there a wiring box nearby where they, and possibly the stove pump+stat wiring terminate? You can check if the grey/orange wires are terminated.

Yep, opened the box and sure enough the grey and orange wires are there, just cut off and not connected to anything.

deezell wrote: »

You would indeed need to have some open radiators on the circuit, if the stove output exceeded the ability of the HW cylinder to sink heat. Strictly speaking, these would ideally be gravity also, often a single top floor one, fed through a thermostatic operated flow valve, which woul open stove flow for gravity connection to some open upper floor rads, regardless of a power outage. Something like this may already be in place, explaining the mild heating of upper floor rads from the stove.

Not sure if something like this is in place. The mild heating upstairs was usually when we had upstairs valve open, stove wasn't able to provide enough heat for upstairs and downstairs, well that was our take on it..

deezell wrote: »

With a fairly powerful stove, it is a good idea to have a relay which cuts the SL to the oil boiler when the stove is supplying sufficient heat to the CH. The smart stats will still call and open the valves, but the oil boiler will not fire until the stove heat drops before a threshold. A very simple method to implement this is to wire the NC terminal of the stove stat to provide the live in to the grey wires of the valve relays. If the stove is operating at a high enough temperature to bring in the stove stat, the NC terminal goes to 0, so SL is unavailable to the oil boiler via the valve relays until the stove stat closes when the stove heat reduces. Its not ideal with your plumbing as the stove flow is connected post valve to the downstairs CH circuit only, but if both valves happened to be called by the new controller receiver, and various TRVs were open, the stove HW could reach upper as well and lower floor rads, quickly dissipating the stove heat first which would close the stove pump stat and return power to fire the oil boiler as normal. This entire addition to your new wiring would require a single wire from that orange stat to the wiring box for the zone valves, so it would be very simple to implement, or bypass. That's enough info to wreck your head for a while. Off you go and Get CHexit Done!

I've read this bit quite a few times

So as the stove isn't powerful enough to heat the whole house, what your saying is that if the temperature of the thermostat was met and the pump kicked in, and a room called for heat, it wouldn't fire the oil until the stove flow temperature dropped below the thermostat setting again? So it would give the stove the chance to heat the rooms first then hand over to the oil if it wasn't up to the task pretty much?

If that is what you meant that sounds very useful and would save on oil quite alot. For example, our sons room upstairs can get cold. When we get the Tado, it will be useful in that we can boost that room only without having to boost the 2nd and 3rd/Attic floor (current upstairs zone). We have the stove lit most evenings these days, but when we get the Tado, even then, once the valve opens it'd fire the boiler when the stove may be able to do that room if we have some downstairs rooms off.

CrazyFather1 · 25-01-2021 6:00pm

Anyone know what is difference in the Drayton Wiser for a conventional boiler and combi boiler?

Maybe I have found the answer, it can only control heat but wouldn't be able to turn on off/water

John mac · 26-01-2021 8:44am

Anyone know what is difference in the Drayton Wiser for a conventional boiler and combi boiler?

combi boiler is one that heats hot water as you need it from the hot taps ( there is no hot water cylinder in the house)

conventional heats the water in the boiler which then heats the water in the cylinder

26-01-2021 1:48pm

Someone gave me a Netamo with a broken screen.
Its all working apart from the screen (you can see/set the temps on the app)

Anyone want it ?

DrPhilG · 27-01-2021 11:21am

Calling all experts...

Plumber is due on Friday, he's disconnecting my slack burner for the new owner, and hopefully getting me plumbed and ready for the spark to connect the Wiser kit.

My understanding is that I currently have 2 motorised valves in the hot press, for the 2 heating zones. They are controlled by the 2 switches beside the timer clock.

The plumber I believe is adding a 3rd motorised valve for the hot water. So am I correct in the following:

* Spark will need to run another cable back from the 3rd motorised valve, to that controller location

* I need a
cylinder stat that can be read by the Wiser control

* The 2 switches on the wall will now be gone and replaced by the new Wiser control. Looking from the top it seems that the old control had the connection to the right, the new one has it on the left.

DrPhilG · 27-01-2021 12:18pm

Also what would you say is a reasonable time frame/rate for the spark to wire up the 3rd stat and fit the control hub?

Day? Half a day? 3 weeks plus overtime lol?

chris_ie · 27-01-2021 2:43pm

Your setup looks exactly like mine DrPhilG, did we have the same plumber/electrician during the build?

I'm plan on doing the same, new controls and add HW zone. Are your wall switches and programmer far from (same floor?) where your valves are?

deezell · 27-01-2021 3:24pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Also what would you say is a reasonable time frame/rate for the spark to wire up the 3rd stat and fit the control hub?

Day? Half a day? 3 weeks plus overtime lol?

I note you opted in the end to install a single CH zone kit and some TRVs, thought you have two CH zone valves. These will need to be operated together from the single CH output of the wiser HubR receiver. You can add an additional stat and receiver to maintain two zones, though the addition of 2 TRVs will give some element of zoning.
The addition of a cylinder stat is just a mechanical stat in line with Wiser HW control voltage to the new HW zone valve. There is no app control of the temperature setting of this stat, it cuts off the valve and boiler if the HW heats to stat setting during a timed HW event.
Currently your boiler is fired directly from your single timer, the switches only open the valves. Your wiring will need alteration so that firing Switched Live (SL) voltage to the boiler is taken from the three valves relays, which are currently unused on the existimg two valves afaik. This means that the boiler stops firing once all valves are closed, and no timed CH or HW event is on.
It might make more sense to locate the HubR receiver next to the valves, it's CH and HW outputs wired in place of the current SL from the two switches, and to the new HW valve. The combined lives from the three valves' relays, (assumimg all in the same location), can be routed back through one of the unused SL from the white switches, and linked to the boiler SL input which is located at the unused EPH. Sparks will know what to do. It could save pulling new wires through ceilings etc. I suggested somthing similar recently to a poster with a similar setup, 2 zone valves not connected to fire the boiler, no HW valve, single timer direct to boiler SL.
How long will it take the sparks? If he understands S plan wiring, where boiler is fired by combined zone valve relays (orange and grey wires), rather than directly from the receiver/timer SLs used to open the valves, he should be in and out in short time. 3rd stat you refer to is the mechanical one for the HW. Have you bought this yet? The single wiser CH stat is wireless back to the hub.

DrPhilG · 27-01-2021 5:01pm

deezell wrote: »

I note you opted in the end to install a single CH zone kit and some TRVs, thought you have two CH zone valves.

Eh??

Its the Drayton Wiser Kit 3. 2 channels plus hot water.

Jeez man you're worrying me, have I bought the wrong gear?

DrPhilG · 27-01-2021 5:05pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Your setup looks exactly like mine DrPhilG, did we have the same plumber/electrician during the build? I'm plan on doing the same, new controls and add HW zone. Are your wall switches and programmer far from (same floor?) where your valves are?

It's a bungalow, so any rewiring is straightforward.

Wall switches and control is in the kitchen, valves I believe are at the hot press which is down the hall, maybe 12ft if you're going up and across the roofspace.

DrPhilG · 27-01-2021 5:07pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Eh??

Its the Drayton Wiser Kit 3. 2 channels plus hot water.

deezell · 27-01-2021 8:26pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Eh??

Its the Drayton Wiser Kit 3. 2 channels plus hot water.

Jeez man you're worrying me, have I bought the wrong gear?

Ah great. You're sorted so.

Home heating automation

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