Home heating automation

Fujitsu10 · 20-01-2021 3:56pm

Caillte wrote: »

It is max 10 rooms assigned to 1 smart wall thermostat. I have 14 TRVs (in 13 rooms/hallways) split between 2 smart wall thermostats. I sent which TRVs i wanted to be controlled by which wall thermostats to tado and they set it up to work that way (so that a TRV in zone 2 doesn't call for heat in zone 1 etc. etc.)

Thanks for the info. I have 12 TRV's in total (rooms/halway etc also) and only 1 wireless thermostat. I set this up myself with the help of @deezel (Thanks again). I have doubled up on rooms with regard to the TRV's to go to a maximum of 10 room. My question now is this. If I input a manual request for heating (outside the schedule) at a particular room via the app, do I also need to input an increase of temp at the wireless stat?

Caillte · 20-01-2021 5:02pm

Fujitsu10 wrote: »

Thanks for the info. I have 12 TRV's in total (rooms/halway etc also) and only 1 wireless thermostat. I set this up myself with the help of @deezel (Thanks again). I have doubled up on rooms with regard to the TRV's to go to a maximum of 10 room. My question now is this. If I input a manual request for heating (outside the schedule) at a particular room via the app, do I also need to input an increase of temp at the wireless stat?

If you have a tado smart wall thermostat no you dont its automatic. The TRV sends the signal to the wall thermostat and it sends the signal to the motorised valve and then it calls for heat from the boiler. That's what mine does anyway.

championc · 20-01-2021 9:15pm

Fujitsu10 wrote: »

Thanks for the info. I have 12 TRV's in total (rooms/halway etc also) and only 1 wireless thermostat. I set this up myself with the help of @deezel (Thanks again). I have doubled up on rooms with regard to the TRV's to go to a maximum of 10 room. My question now is this. If I input a manual request for heating (outside the schedule) at a particular room via the app, do I also need to input an increase of temp at the wireless stat?

For individual TRV's, they basically work as their own zones, and therefore turn a boiler on and off irrespective of the room which has the smart thermostat.

For the room with the smart thermostat linked to a TRV, the TRV can call for heat but you'd need the smart thermostat to ALSO be calling for heat.

deezell · 21-01-2021 12:10am

chris_ie wrote: »

@deezell at the risk of wrecking your head does the following photo show anything that would be an issue installing the tado?

Programmer connections.

Programmer and two wall switches to control upstairs and downstairs valves

I'll have a look back at the posts, but, iirc, this is a bit of a bodge. Single timer alone fires the boiler, switches just open zone valves, no valve relay signalling to the boiler to fire it when a valve opens, no stats in the circiit anywhere, and HW is heated all the time boiler fires. Its needs more than a simple substitution of two smart stats and HW relay, additional wiring at least, and a HW valve to achieve proper 3 zone S plan.

DrPhilG · 21-01-2021 12:43am

Definitely going for the Wiser system.

Room stat to control bedroom zone, based in master bedroom.

Room stat to control remaining zone, based in the hallway.

2 new TRVs to ensure that the living room turns off separately from the rest of that zone in the case that the stove is lit.

Just need to flog the slack burner now to fund the job. Anyone in the market for one, let me know!

DrPhilG · 21-01-2021 12:44am

deezell wrote: »

I'll have a look back at the posts, but, iirc, this is a bit of a bodge

Hmm,ill have to get a picture behind my controller to see if mine is similarly crap. I have the same setup, dumb control plus 2 switches.

chris_ie · 21-01-2021 1:15am

deezell wrote: »

I'll have a look back at the posts, but, iirc, this is a bit of a bodge. Single timer alone fires the boiler, switches just open zone valves, no valve relay signalling to the boiler to fire it when a valve opens, no stats in the circiit anywhere, and HW is heated all the time boiler fires. Its needs more than a simple substitution of two smart stats and HW relay, additional wiring at least, and a HW valve to achieve proper 3 zone S plan.

Thanks deezel, yep no stats, switches just open valves and don’t fire boiler. Can have HW only or HW and CH (not CH only)
I’m wondering would it be a big job to sort properly. Guess I’d need a plumber in initially then electrician for wiring based on what plumber says?

steve584 · 21-01-2021 1:23am

My Wiser is to be delivered in the next few days and I'm just preparing myself to install it. Any help would be appreciated. I know the live and neutral will need to be swapped. Would I be correct in that I just need to swap the red wire to the free terminal?

deezell · 21-01-2021 2:50am

chris_ie wrote: »

Thanks deezel, yep no stats, switches just open valves and don’t fire boiler. Can have HW only or HW and CH (not CH only)
I’m wondering would it be a big job to sort properly. Guess I’d need a plumber in initially then electrician for wiring based on what plumber says?

Just another zone valve, valve relays wired to fire the boiler, then add a 3 zone system, 2 ch stats and HW, to control the three valves. Put a €20 wired mechanical stat on the HW cylinder for finer control. Wireless CH stats to make life easy.
Drayton wiser Kit 3, Hive, Tado )with max one wireless, plus one wired stat), or Nest with two full stat systems (pricey).

deezell · 21-01-2021 3:04am

steve584 wrote: »

My Wiser is to be delivered in the next few days and I'm just preparing myself to install it. Any help would be appreciated. I know the live and neutral will need to be swapped. Would I be correct in that I just need to swap the red wire to the free terminal?

Yes, wall plate from left is N, L, brown Junper wire from L to 1, red wire to 3. Terminal 2 on wiser plate not used.

steve584 · 21-01-2021 3:57am

deezell wrote: »

Yes, wall plate from left is N, L, brown Junper wire from L to 2, red wire to 3 Terminal 2 on wiser plate not used.

Thanks Deezel, should that be terminal 4 not used?

deezell · 21-01-2021 10:03am

steve584 wrote: »

Thanks Deezel, should that be terminal 4 not used?

Sorry, typo. Live Jumper goes to 1, Common, red wire ro 3, CH On or Normally Open. 2 and 4 unused .

chris_ie · 21-01-2021 10:37am

deezell wrote: »

Just another zone valve, valve relays wired to fire the boiler, then add a 3 zone system, 2 ch stats and HW, to control the three valves. Put a €20 wired mechanical stat on the HW cylinder for finer control. Wireless CH stats to make life easy.
Drayton wiser Kit 3, Hive, Tado )with max one wireless, plus one wired stat), or Nest with two full stat systems (pricey).

You make it sound so simple

Valves and hot water are on second floor in hot press and switches etc are downstairs in utility room. I'll see if I can get someone in whenever things open up.

steve584 · 21-01-2021 12:20pm

deezell wrote: »

Sorry, typo. Live Jumper goes to 1, Common, red wire ro 3, CH On or Normally Open. 2 and 4 unused .

Thanks for clearing that up Deezel, appreciate your feedback. Once I get the unit I'll update.

deezell · 21-01-2021 1:49pm

chris_ie wrote: »

You make it sound so simple Valves and hot water are on second floor in hot press and switches etc are downstairs in utility room. I'll see if I can get someone in whenever things open up.

Haha, do I detect sarcasm? Its always a pita to add additional cables, but if you hire a sparks, he'd have an eye for channels, re using wires from redundant parts etc. The key is finding a path for a single SLfrom the 2 ( or 3) zone valves. The 3 zone receiver can be sited next to the valves. Stats are wireless. The combined valve relays SL back to the boiler can use one of the old live wires from the niw redundant switches next to the timer. The current boiler sl is at that timer. So just linking this to the repurposed for valve switching wire completes the circuit. The old timer is just removed. Fitting an extra valve to the HW coil is a doddle, and its control voltage from the receiver, as well as its path to fire the boiler, are all located there.
If you decide to leave HW on for all events, no vslve, you can. Just combine HW Sl to the two CH zone relays SLs back to the boiler Sl out at the old timer as descibed earlier. This will give HW on independently or whenever a CH zone is on. I'd consider it worth adding the extra valve, a €60 item plus fitting. Also a cylinder stat, again its all in the same place.
A knowledgeable heating installer might fit the valve and redo the wiring in one go. If you go for the drayton kit 3, or any of them,you could have it installed in advance, stats on walls and paired, zone SLs testing for on and off, ready to wire to zone valve actuators and take of from white switches.

chris_ie · 21-01-2021 3:09pm

deezell wrote: »

Haha, do I detect sarcasm? Its always a pita to add additional cables, but if you hire a sparks, he'd have an eye for channels, re using wires from redundant parts etc. The key is finding a path for a single SLfrom the 2 ( or 3) zone valves. The 3 zone receiver can be sited next to the valves. Stats are wireless. The combined valve relays SL back to the boiler can use one of the old live wires from the niw redundant switches next to the timer. The current boiler sl is at that timer. So just linking this to the repurposed for valve switching wire completes the circuit. The old timer is just removed. Fitting an extra valve to the HW coil is a doddle, and its control voltage from the receiver, as well as its path to fire the boiler, are all located there.
If you decide to leave HW on for all events, no vslve, you can. Just combine HW Sl to the two CH zone relays SLs back to the boiler Sl out at the old timer as descibed earlier. This will give HW on independently or whenever a CH zone is on. I'd consider it worth adding the extra valve, a €60 item plus fitting. Also a cylinder stat, again its all in the same place.
A knowledgeable heating installer might fit the valve and redo the wiring in one go. If you go for the drayton kit 3, or any of them,you could have it installed in advance, stats on walls and paired, zone SLs testing for on and off, ready to wire to zone valve actuators and take of from white switches.

Ah, so basically I'd be moving the heating controls into the hot press and the old switch wires acting as an extension lead, of sorts, to the boiler. Leaving no boiler controls/switches in the utility room? Very interesting! Never thought of that, always had it in my head that the oil programmer/timer should be in the utility room, as its closer to the boiler. Nice thinking out of the box!

I'd ideally get someone in who's had experience with these kinds of setups. I've had problems before where I've contacted people before for jobs and they'd say "I haven't done them before but should be grand".

Will definitely go with separating the HW too. Makes sense to do it when getting this done and should reduce waste also. As always, thanks a million for that info. Think we should change the thread title to "Home heating automation by deezell"

Edit to add : Is there anything to be careful of here with regards to the back boiler also?

godtabh · 21-01-2021 3:35pm

Hi, new to this.

Getting the house rewired and I want to automate the heating.

As far as I can tell there are 3 zones (thermostat up stairs/down stairs) and a hot water cylinder. What are the best options these days

championc · 21-01-2021 9:30pm

godtabh wrote: »

Hi, new to this.

Getting the house rewired and I want to automate the heating.

As far as I can tell there are 3 zones (thermostat up stairs/down stairs) and a hot water cylinder. What are the best options these days

How many rads ?

godtabh · 22-01-2021 12:05am

championc wrote: »

How many rads ?

I’d have to count but off the top of my head maybe 30

Fujitsu10 · 22-01-2021 10:27am

Caillte wrote: »

If you have a tado smart wall thermostat no you dont its automatic. The TRV sends the signal to the wall thermostat and it sends the signal to the motorised valve and then it calls for heat from the boiler. That's what mine does anyway.

I have figured out why I thought that increasing the temp on the trv wasn't calling the boiler...... the reason was that I wasn't waiting long enough for the boiler to fire. I have noticed that it can take around 10 minutes or more before the boiler fires sometimes. Not sure if this is correct, seems a long time to have to wait. In any case it does work as you describe. I'll let well enough alone now and see how it performs in the coming weeks. An indication on the app showing that the receiver has switched on the boiler would have been very useful.
Thanks again for all the help.

deezell · 22-01-2021 10:49am

chris_ie wrote: »

.....Edit to add : Is there anything to be careful of here with regards to the back boiler also?

I'd forgotten about the boiler. That needs at least to have a gravity feed to the HW cylinder. If you are adding an extra valve for HW from the automated controller it can't cut the flow from the stove. Ideally, you should have a cylinder with two heating coils. If a stove needs to push heat to the rads, there are various ways it can be mixed with the flow from the oil boiler. It should have its own pump and a pipe stat to operate it. A couple of one way valves can prevent back flow from the oil boiler to the stove jacket. Some rads would need to be open for stove flow, if you have TRVs, they might all be closed when the stove is burning.
The best system for blending stove and boiler is to use a manifold mixer, a small tank like unit. There are good schematic system diagrams here.

https://www.nrgawareness.com/

CrazyFather1 · 22-01-2021 11:40am

OK so I ordered the Tado wired thermostat, on the 28th and just arrived today. Shipping issues with UK etc.
In my haste I should have ordered the unit with the connection for the hot water, am I better off shipping this back which Tado have offered to do? or just buy the unit seperate

chris_ie · 22-01-2021 6:44pm

deezell wrote: »

I'd forgotten about the boiler. That needs at least to have a gravity feed to the HW cylinder. If you are adding an extra valve for HW from the automated controller it can't cut the flow from the stove. Ideally, you should have a cylinder with two heating coils. If a stove needs to push heat to the rads, there are various ways it can be mixed with the flow from the oil boiler. It should have its own pump and a pipe stat to operate it. A couple of one way valves can prevent back flow from the oil boiler to the stove jacket. Some rads would need to be open for stove flow, if you have TRVs, they might all be closed when the stove is burning.
The best system for blending stove and boiler is to use a manifold mixer, a small tank like unit. There are good schematic system diagrams here.

https://www.nrgawareness.com/

We have a three coil cylinder. Ready for solar panels too. The pipe from the stove has a thermostat which kicks on a pump. The pipe from that pump appears to be under the downstairs valve which might explain why downstairs heats regardless of the downstairs valve being on or not.

With this having two coils would it just be a case of having a few rads open all the time downstairs? I realize that they’d be open for the oil too.

Two photos attached show the cylinder and the pump and valves.

championc · 22-01-2021 8:05pm

Fujitsu10 wrote: »

I have noticed that it can take around 10 minutes or more before the boiler fires sometimes. Not sure if this is correct, seems a long time to have to wait. In any case it does work as you describe. I'll let well enough alone now and see how it performs in the coming weeks.

That's definitely not right I'd say, no matter what system it is.

I've got Tado and it's literally 5 to 10 secs between me maybe turning a TRV on / Increasing the temperature and the actuator in the TRV actually opening (and if necessary firing the boiler)

Fujitsu10 · 22-01-2021 9:07pm

championc wrote: »

That's definitely not right I'd say, no matter what system it is.

I've got Tado and it's literally 5 to 10 secs between me maybe turning a TRV on / Increasing the temperature and the actuator in the TRV actually opening (and if necessary firing the boiler)

The TRV operates within 5 to 10 seconds ok, but the boiler certainly takes longer. It seems to vary. The only other thing I notice is that some of the TRV's go offline and back on again. The bridge is located (set vertically) in the attic at the moment (that was the only place I could locate it at present, as the router is there). It is possible that the signal between the receiver and the bridge isn't great, but I have no way of knowing. It would be great if Tado gave diagnostic info for signal strength etc on the app. The info for trouble shooting is very limited. I plan on relocating the bridge if needed.

championc · 23-01-2021 1:23am

Fujitsu10 wrote: »

The TRV operates within 5 to 10 seconds ok, but the boiler certainly takes longer. It seems to vary. The only other thing I notice is that some of the TRV's go offline and back on again. The bridge is located (set vertically) in the attic at the moment (that was the only place I could locate it at present, as the router is there). It is possible that the signal between the receiver and the bridge isn't great, but I have no way of knowing. It would be great if Tado gave diagnostic info for signal strength etc on the app. The info for trouble shooting is very limited. I plan on relocating the bridge if needed.

If it's any consolation, my bridge is also in the attic. You could use the app to flash the displays on TRV's.

Maybe check your firmware versions

TRV's - 75.2

Smart Thermostat - 76.1

Internet Bridge - 60.7

Extension Kit - 71.2

App version 6.3.3 (1500603030)

For me, Tado support had to push the Firmware to the extension kit initially. It's updated a few times since itself.

deezell · 23-01-2021 7:46am

chris_ie wrote: »

We have a three coil cylinder. Ready for solar panels too. The pipe from the stove has a thermostat which kicks on a pump. The pipe from that pump appears to be under the downstairs valve which might explain why downstairs heats regardless of the downstairs valve being on or not.

With this having two coils would it just be a case of having a few rads open all the time downstairs? I realize that they’d be open for the oil too.

Two photos attached show the cylinder and the pump and valves.

I can see the post motorised valve tap into the downstairs CH circuit from the pump. This I presume is the stove pump. I presume that is the stove HW cylinder circuit with the orange pipe stat on it. This triggers the pump when the hot gravity flow from the stove exceeds a threshold, prior to which it just dissipates heat into the cylinder. I assume that rising inch pipe to the cylinder is the same one which is tapped off to the top side of the pump, pushing hot stove flow through a non return one way valve, visible bottom right of the pump, and into the ground floor CH circuit. Its possible also that the valves and pump are operating on the return flows from the CH and HW, I can't see the flow direction mark on the pump or on on the NR valve under it, but it will work equally well.

There may be some leakage via the valves or quirks in the plumbing which cause some stove flow to the upper floor rads when the stove pump is on and the upper valve is closed. I must say it all looks familiar, I've an identical 3 coil cylinder with a yet to be connected solar circuit, but I've used a manifold and pumps to blend stove and oil heat, with a lex relay box to control the logic.

Those Myson valves have grey/orange wire relay connections for firing the boiler, is there a wiring box nearby where they, and possibly the stove pump+stat wiring terminate? You can check if the grey/orange wires are terminated.
You would indeed need to have some open radiators on the circuit, if the stove output exceeded the ability of the HW cylinder to sink heat. Strictly speaking, these would ideally be gravity also, often a single top floor one, fed through a thermostatic operated flow valve, which woul open stove flow for gravity connection to some open upper floor rads, regardless of a power outage. Something like this may already be in place, explaining the mild heating of upper floor rads from the stove.
It all looks very neat, you should have no problem connecting zone controller relays, or inserting another valve on the boiler HW flow or return side, whichever is currently used by those existing valves.

With a fairly powerful stove, it is a good idea to have a relay which cuts the SL to the oil boiler when the stove is supplying sufficient heat to the CH. The smart stats will still call and open the valves, but the oil boiler will not fire until the stove heat drops before a threshold. A very simple method to implement this is to wire the NC terminal of the stove stat to provide the live in to the grey wires of the valve relays. If the stove is operating at a high enough temperature to bring in the stove stat, the NC terminal goes to 0, so SL is unavailable to the oil boiler via the valve relays until the stove stat closes when the stove heat reduces. Its not ideal with your plumbing as the stove flow is connected post valve to the downstairs CH circuit only, but if both valves happened to be called by the new controller receiver, and various TRVs were open, the stove HW could reach upper as well and lower floor rads, quickly dissipating the stove heat first which would close the stove pump stat and return power to fire the oil boiler as normal. This entire addition to your new wiring would require a single wire from that orange stat to the wiring box for the zone valves, so it would be very simple to implement, or bypass. That's enough info to wreck your head for a while. Off you go and Get CHexit Done!

Fujitsu10 · 23-01-2021 12:42pm

championc wrote: »

If it's any consolation, my bridge is also in the attic. You could use the app to flash the displays on TRV's.

Maybe check your firmware versions

TRV's - 75.2

Smart Thermostat - 76.1

Internet Bridge - 60.7

Extension Kit - 71.2

App version 6.3.3 (1500603030)

For me, Tado support had to push the Firmware to the extension kit initially. It's updated a few times since itself.

Some of my firmware versions are not the same as yours:

TRV's - 54.12 one trv is 75.2

Smart Thermostat - 73.1

Internet Bridge - 60.8

Wireless Receiver - 74.2

App version 6.3.3

Is it possible for me to update the firmware versions, or is this something Tado need to do? If it's Tado how to I go about getting this done?

championc · 23-01-2021 4:49pm

It's annoying that Tado don't post a ChangeLog anywhere as to what changes there are between versions

You could take the batteries out of a TRV and put them back in again, and that might kick off an update. Or maybe contact Tado support

Ricey3509 · 23-01-2021 6:07pm

I'm about to pull the trigger on a Tado setup and I'd like a steer if what I've planning makes sense.

I've currently got a single nest controlling the rad's and hot water, can I just order the wireless starter kit and replace the heat link with the Tado wireless receiver?

We've currently got 10 rad's in the house. 3 are in the main living space (open plan) and 2 are towel rad's in ensuite/main bathroom. A couple of questions:

- should I put Smart TRV's on the towel rad's?
- in the main living space, should I put smart trv's on every rad or just one?

Thanks!

Home heating automation

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