Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

20-01-2021 10:51am

downcow wrote: »

I suppose I feel reassured now when I see the fantasy some of you guys are living in.
You think unionist are going to try to make a UI look as attractive as possible ahead of a UI vote lol
Bonnie thinks the the Guards with irish and tricolours on their uniforms are going to police eg the twelfth LOL Here's is just one random of the 600 bands they will police (wind up) at the 3,000 parades LOL. Are you guys for real? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiNHseHl8jY

That is fairly sectarian backward and medieval.
Who would want to police that - leave that stuff over in East Belfast and hopefully someday the enlightenment will come to the area.
The rest of society can move on, get jobs, careers and live our lives.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 10:53am

downcow wrote: »

I suppose I feel reassured now when I see the fantasy some of you guys are living in.
You think unionist are going to try to make a UI look as attractive as possible ahead of a UI vote lol
Bonnie thinks the the Guards with irish and tricolours on their uniforms are going to police eg the twelfth LOL Here's is just one random of the 600 bands they will police (wind up) at the 3,000 parades LOL. Are you guys for real? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiNHseHl8jY

You are just making stuff up now.

I never said anything about Unionists 'making a UI as attractive etc' nor did Bonnie say what you claim.

How about you drop the most dis-ingenuous poster tag and engage properly?

Unionists will be in discussion to ensure their rights are protected in a possible UI. The Irish and British governments will be making a bi-lateral agreement to be lodged with the UN.
Are you seriously proposing that Unionists won't have any input into that?

Yes or No...no need to invent something I didn't say.

downcow · 20-01-2021 11:01am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are just making stuff up now.

I never said anything about Unionists 'making a UI as attractive etc' nor did Bonnie say what you claim.

How about you drop the most dis-ingenuous poster tag and engage properly?

Unionists will be in discussion to ensure their rights are protected in a possible UI. The Irish and British governments will be making a bi-lateral agreement to be lodged with the UN.
Are you seriously proposing that Unionists won't have any input into that?

Yes or No...no need to invent something I didn't say.

I am inventing nothing. Maybe you are realising how ridiculous what you and Bonnie have been saying really is.
You said clearly that in your view Unionist leaders would be part of negotiations to come up with the best united Ireland agreement scenario possible, ahead of any poll. Or do you now deny saying this, or do you think that those actions would increase Unionist chances of winning a border poll. You are just denying stuff you said.

Bonnie was also very clear in response to Tom (who actually surprised me) who suggested that maybe the guards would not be the best way to place Unionist areas. Bonnie said (not verbatim) absolutely must be the guards and that the Unionists must be faced down. I can see why you think that is ridiculous and will not encourage people to vote for a united Ireland, but you can trawl back and you will find Bonnie said it over the last 24hours.

Just let me check. Are you saying that you and Bonnie did not say these things?

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 11:12am

downcow wrote: »

I am inventing nothing. Maybe you are realising how ridiculous what you and Bonnie have been saying really is.
You said clearly that in your view Unionist leaders would be part of negotiations to come up with the best united Ireland agreement scenario possible, ahead of any poll. Or do you now deny saying this, or do you think that those actions would increase Unionist chances of winning a border poll. You are just denying stuff you said.

I said Unionists would be a part of the discussion to ensure their rights if a UI happened. You invented the rest.

Bonnie was also very clear in response to Tom (who actually surprised me) who suggested that maybe the guards would not be the best way to place Unionist areas. Bonnie said (not verbatim) absolutely must be the guards and that the Unionists must be faced down. I can see why you think that is ridiculous and will not encourage people to vote for a united Ireland, but you can trawl back and you will find Bonnie said it over the last 24hours.

Just let me check. Are you saying that you and Bonnie did not say these things?

Bonnie said no such thing, Bonnie said the same as me.

That a police force made up of what we have already, the Gardai and the PSNI, would police. We have no need for a 'separate' 'other' police force and it is important that any police force be under the control of the new government. I also asked and wasn't answered, why wouldn't an Irish police force be referred to in Irish and English?

Now quit lying and misrepresenting and deal with what is actually being said.

downcow · 20-01-2021 11:38am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I said Unionists would be a part of the discussion to ensure their rights if a UI happened. You invented the rest.

Bonnie said no such thing, Bonnie said the same as me.

That a police force made up of what we have already, the Gardai and the PSNI, would police. We have no need for a 'separate' 'other' police force and it is important that any police force be under the control of the new government. I also asked and wasn't answered, why wouldn't an Irish police force be referred to in Irish and English?

Now quit lying and misrepresenting and deal with what is actually being said.

You are dancing on the head of a pin Francie.
What would these discussions be about if they were not to improve the lot of Unionists in a united Ireland? and how is that different from anything I said? and how would that not potentially influence a vote?

Also with regard to your comments above about Bonnie, again how is this any different to anything I said? You are repeating that one police force should operate across the entire island - I am assuming you will not want Irish language banned from their uniforms?

So Francie please do not accuse me of lying just because you are dancing on the head of a pin.

Of course you could solve this for all of us.
Tell me
do you think these discussions you believe will happen, would enhance the likelihood of some Unionists accepting a united Ireland, and hence increase that vote?
Do you think it is likely that a police force controlled by the Dail with an Irish name would be policing the Shankill Road?

As usual I will not hold my breath for direct clear answers

downcow · 20-01-2021 11:41am

6541 wrote: »

That is fairly sectarian backward and medieval.
Who would want to police that - leave that stuff over in East Belfast and hopefully someday the enlightenment will come to the area.
The rest of society can move on, get jobs, careers and live our lives.

It's not just that simple. You will struggle to find any town or village in Northern Ireland that does not have its loyalist band.
...... and these are generally law-abiding disciplined outfits - but any large group of people can be pushed over the edge.
So in short, it's not about East Belfast

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 11:51am

downcow wrote: »

You are dancing on the head of a pin Francie.
What would these discussions be about if they were not to improve the lot of Unionists in a united Ireland? and how is that different from anything I said? and how would that not potentially influence a vote?

Also with regard to your comments above about Bonnie, again how is this any different to anything I said? You are repeating that one police force should operate across the entire island - I am assuming you will not want Irish language banned from their uniforms?

So Francie please do not accuse me of lying just because you are dancing on the head of a pin.

Of course you could solve this for all of us.
Tell me
do you think these discussions you believe will happen, would enhance the likelihood of some Unionists accepting a united Ireland, and hence increase that vote?
Do you think it is likely that a police force controlled by the Dail with an Irish name would be policing the Shankill Road?

As usual I will not hold my breath for direct clear answers

What the absolute hell is that mess of a post about?

I DID NOT say Unionists would be 'negotiating' the 'most enticing UI' I said Unionists would be in discussions to protect their rights if a Border Poll succeeded and the British and Irish governments entered into a bi-lateral agreement which would be inevitable.

I also said, that 'the new government' should control the police force which would be made up of a combination of the PSNI and Gardai (with whatever name is agreed)
I agree with Bonnie that there should be NO separate police force in NO deveolved region.

Q1. I don't know if it will increase the Unionist vote for a UI or not. That is up to Unionists.

Q2. As I stated twice previously: I think a combined police force of the Gardai and PSNI will police. Named in the two languages of the state (and Ulster Scots if agreed)
The threat of violence meeting that force is yours, and I am not accountable for that.
*Personally, having watched the dissipation of Loyalist violence since the AIA I think it will be of the 'wrecking their own areas' 'banging bin lids' variety.

jm08 · 20-01-2021 12:12pm

downcow wrote: »

It's not just that simple. You will struggle to find any town or village in Northern Ireland that does not have its loyalist band.
...... and these are generally law-abiding disciplined outfits - but any large group of people can be pushed over the edge.
So in short, it's not about East Belfast

The war will be over DC, The Sash is a great tune - I hope we will hear plenty of it in the new Ireland. No one will care where Orange bands march and in the new Ireland, Orange bands will be given plenty of places to march. Can't wait to see some of them in the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin along with bands from all over the world.

downcow · 20-01-2021 1:26pm

jm08 wrote: »

The war will be over DC, The Sash is a great tune - I hope we will hear plenty of it in the new Ireland. No one will care where Orange bands march and in the new Ireland, Orange bands will be given plenty of places to march. Can't wait to see some of them in the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin along with bands from all over the world.

I don't share your optimism jm08. The only memory I have of loyalist bands attempting to parade in Dublin, all hell broke loose, and the guards prevented them from walking their agreed route.
I am not sure why you think it would be different in the future, but let's hope you're right

downcow · 20-01-2021 1:30pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I DID NOT say Unionists would be 'negotiating' the 'most enticing UI' I said Unionists would be in discussions to protect their rights if a Border Poll succeeded and the British and Irish governments entered into a bi-lateral agreement which would be inevitable.

LOL. I did not say that was a black cat, I said the cat was black.
I wonder is there anyone else on here who agrees with you and thinks that unionists will get into discussions pre a border poll, to attempt to protect some of their rights, so that Republicans can say during the border poll - look your rights are protected so vote for our agenda.

You are either just being your tiresome self or you are completely naïve about what any border poll would entail, and how bitter and divisive would be

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 1:40pm

downcow wrote: »

LOL. I did not say that was a black cat, I said the cat was black.
I wonder is there anyone else on here who agrees with you and thinks that unionists will get into discussions pre a border poll, to attempt to protect some of their rights, so that Republicans can say during the border poll - look your rights are protected so vote for our agenda.

You are either just being your tiresome self or you are completely naïve about what any border poll would entail, and how bitter and divisive would be

Well, let's see. Anyone else think Unionists will enter discussions to protect themselves?

A border poll will only be bitter and divisive if Unionists try to suppress it, ignore it or refuse to engage in favour of not being completely peaceful.

downcow · 20-01-2021 2:17pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, let's see. Anyone else think Unionists will enter discussions to protect themselves?

A border poll will only be bitter and divisive if Unionists try to suppress it, ignore it or refuse to engage in favour of not being completely peaceful.

Yes so let's hear from other posters.
And of course you have left out the key part of the question. Of course Unionists will be pragmatic enough to enter discussions to protect themselves, but the key question is would they do that in advance of a poll? - it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 2:35pm

downcow wrote: »

Yes so let's hear from other posters.
And of course you have left out the key part of the question. Of course Unionists will be pragmatic enough to enter discussions to protect themselves, but the key question is would they do that in advance of a poll? - it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

If the White Papers cover a proposed UI, then yes they will, because it would be politically inept and suicidal not to.
The concept of a possible UI has been around a while now, they should be over it.

20-01-2021 2:39pm

This was posted on the Irish Times site today.

This chap thinks that a UI is on route because of Brexit and DUP overplayed their hand.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/north-slowly-becoming-part-of-united-ireland-says-former-british-chancellor-1.4463045

Hamsterchops · 20-01-2021 3:09pm

Tiocfaidh ár lá, but at what cost?

What actually changes if a referendum comes down on the side of a "United Ireland"?

I'm guessing a bit like Brexit day, half the population up North would be celebrating and waving their flags, while the other half hold their heads in their hands.

Mixed feelings down here too, Yes of course after decades of trying to dislodge NI from being joined to Britain, we've finally got them to break the link!

Happy Days?

Brilliant, 51% have voted in favour of a United Ireland, but just like Brexit, the celebration will be tinged with a cautious welcome when we realise what has really happened, with an angry Unionist population resisting integration into this State, or demanding that (if they do agree to unification) then we give them back their devolved administration in Stormont, only this time with Dublin footing the bill ....

As regards "Brits Out" welI I guess they (the Brits) will remain for evermore within the Unionist population, so the British element to their Nationality would remain strong, even if they were no longer living in a region of the UK.

Getting the North to vote for a UI will only be the beginning à la Brexit, and the long & bumpy road to be travelled in getting 'Unity" would begin.

At least they'll all be vaccinated by the time it happens, thanks to their NHS.

maccored · 20-01-2021 3:13pm

why do people ignore the reality that if a UI ever gets voted for, that the process needs to start with a nationwide discussion on what it would be, how it would be financed, how it could be delivered etc? Why do people immediately start demanding to know how much it will cost?

If thats how things were developed in the world and how progress was approached, we'd get nowhere

maccored · 20-01-2021 3:16pm

6541 wrote: »

This was posted on the Irish Times site today.

This chap thinks that a UI is on route because of Brexit and DUP overplayed their hand.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/north-slowly-becoming-part-of-united-ireland-says-former-british-chancellor-1.4463045

dont tell downcow!!

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 3:19pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Tiocfaidh ár lá, but at what cost?

What actually changes if a referendum comes down on the side of a "United Ireland"?

I'm guessing a bit like Brexit day, half the population up North would be celebrating and waving their flags, while the other half hold their heads in their hands.

Mixed feelings down here too, Yes of course after decades of trying to dislodge NI from being joined to Britain, we've finally got them to break the link!

Happy Days?

Brilliant, 51% have voted in favour of a United Ireland, but just like Brexit, the celebration will be tinged with a cautious welcome when we realise what has really happened, with an angry Unionist population resisting integration into this State, or demanding that (if they do agree to unification) then we give them back their devolved administration in Stormont, only this time with Dublin footing the bill ....

As regards "Brits Out" welI I guess they (the Brits) will remain for evermore within the Unionist population, so the British element to their Nationality would remain strong, even if they were no longer living in a region of the UK.

Getting the North to vote for a UI will only be the beginning à la Brexit, and the long & bumpy road to be travelled in getting 'Unity" would begin.

At least they'll all be vaccinated by the time it happens, thanks to their NHS.

Any Unionist who voted for the GFA and the British have AGREED to a UI in the GFA.

The DUP refused to accept the agreement (but try to hide behind it now in typical hypocritical fashion) while the UUP and Alliance did. The majority in NI did accept it. If you are suggesting they will recoil from that agreement after a successful poll then that is an entirely different scenario.

Is that what you are saying?

Hamsterchops · 20-01-2021 3:22pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The DUP refused to accept the agreement (but try to hide behind it now in typical hypocritical fashion) while the UUP and Alliance did. The majority in NI did accept it. If you are suggesting they will recoil from that agreement after a successful poll then that is an entirely different scenario.

Is that what you are saying?

What I'm saying is that those who have always pushed for a "United" Ireland should be cautious, as per those who voted for Brexit thinking that it would be the great Utopia, the Holy Grail....

When it may not be.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 3:28pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What I'm saying is that those who have always pushed for a "United" Ireland should be cautious, as per those who voted for Brexit thinking that it would be the great Utopia, the Holy Grail....

When it may not be.

And those who push for continued partition should also be cautious, as 100 years of tragic experience has shown us it is a disaster on a variety of fronts.

And BTW, the actual point I made was that the majority of electorate of NI have already agreed to a UI if that is what a majority decide. Read the GFA.

Hamsterchops · 20-01-2021 3:38pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And those who push for continued partition should also be cautious, as 100 years of tragic experience has shown us it is a disaster on a variety of fronts.

And BTW, the actual point I made was that the majority of electorate of NI have already agreed to a UI if that is what a majority decide. Read the GFA.

Yes I know all that, yes the GFA says that if a majority of the NI population vote for a UI then it will come to pass, likewise the Brexiteers had put forward their argument for decades that the UK should leave the EU, and now it has, do people have any regrets?

If the NI population vote to leave the UK and become part of this State, then that's their will, even if it by a small margin, agreed.

I was just pointing out that like Brexit, it will be fraught with complications, unforseen consequences & regret from the losing side.

If they vote for it then it happens, as per the GFA.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 3:45pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Yes I know all that, yes the GFA says that if a majority of the NI population vote for a UI then it will come to pass, likewise the Brexiteers had put forward their argument for decades that the UK should leave the EU, and now it has, do people have any regrets?

If the NI population vote to leave the UK and become part of this State, then that's their will, even if it by a small margin, agreed.

I was just pointing out that like Brexit, it will be fraught with complications, unforseen consequences & regret from the losing side.

If they vote for it then it happens, as per the GFA.

As long as people are properly informed, ENGAGE, and are not made stupid promises (a lá Brexit) then what is the problem?
Of course it will be challenging but so what? Of curse there will be regret but there will also be dividends, expected and unexpected. Such is life, such is evolution.

jm08 · 20-01-2021 3:50pm

downcow wrote: »

I don't share your optimism jm08. The only memory I have of loyalist bands attempting to parade in Dublin, all hell broke loose, and the guards prevented them from walking their agreed route.
I am not sure why you think it would be different in the future, but let's hope you're right

There is never a problem with violence for the St. Patrick's Day Parade, DC. Ye'll be grand.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 3:53pm

jm08 wrote: »

There is never a problem with violence for the St. Patrick's Day Parade, DC. Ye'll be grand.

People weren't wound up by a bitter bigot masquerading as a victim activist in the run-up to a St. Patrick's Day parade either.

Hamsterchops · 20-01-2021 3:53pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As long as people are properly informed, ENGAGE, and are not made stupid promises (a lá Brexit) then what is the problem?
Of course it will be challenging but so what? Of curse there will be regret but there will also be dividends, expected and unexpected. Such is life, such is evolution.

Evolution, how very Darwinian of you

Can't see a border poll in NI before Scotland has Indi vote 2, whenever that may be....

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 3:54pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Evolution, how very Darwinian of you

Can't see a border poll in NI before Scotland has Indi vote 2, whenever that may be....

Not particularly Darwinian, just how the world works HC. Things move on, you can either go with them or stay behind.

blanch152 · 20-01-2021 3:57pm

maccored wrote: »

why do people ignore the reality that if a UI ever gets voted for, that the process needs to start with a nationwide discussion on what it would be, how it would be financed, how it could be delivered etc? Why do people immediately start demanding to know how much it will cost?

If thats how things were developed in the world and how progress was approached, we'd get nowhere

Why do supporters of a united Ireland ignore the reality that having seen the complete disaster of a Brexit referendum taking place before there was a national discussion on what it would be, how it would be financed, how it could be delivered etc, that the order should be reversed?

A referendum should only take place after the questions about how it would be financed and what it would look like etc. are answered.

blanch152 · 20-01-2021 3:58pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As long as people are properly informed, ENGAGE, and are not made stupid promises (a lá Brexit) then what is the problem?
Of course it will be challenging but so what? Of curse there will be regret but there will also be dividends, expected and unexpected. Such is life, such is evolution.

It won't cost very much is the first stupid promise we have heard from Sinn Fein so I don't hold out any hope.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 4:03pm

blanch152 wrote: »

A referendum should only take place after the questions about how it would be financed and what it would look like etc. are answered.

They will be addressed as they were in the Scottish referendum in White Papers from the two governments.

There was nothing inherently wrong with the Brexit referendum itself, that people choose to lie and misrepresent was the problem/issue.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 4:05pm

blanch152 wrote: »

It won't cost very much is the first stupid promise we have heard from Sinn Fein so I don't hold out any hope.

If SF propose a figure, it will be up to those who have the facts to counter that.

That's how democracy works.

blanch152 · 20-01-2021 4:06pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They will be addressed as they were in the Scottish referendum in White Papers from the two governments.

There was nothing inherently wrong with the Brexit referendum itself, that people choose to lie and misrepresent was the problem/issue.

Oh dear. The Brexit referendum was ill-conceived, badly managed and the lack of preparation allowed for unlimited disinformation.

IF (and it is a big IF) we are ever to have a referendum on Irish unity, the full consequences need to be spelled out in advance.

blanch152 · 20-01-2021 4:07pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If SF propose a figure, it will be up to those who have the facts to counter that.

That's how democracy works.

Well, we are starting off from a good point, with an acknowledgement that Sinn Fein won't publish a factual figure.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 4:08pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh dear. The Brexit referendum was ill-conceived, badly managed and the lack of preparation allowed for unlimited disinformation.

IF (and it is a big IF) we are ever to have a referendum on Irish unity, the full consequences need to be spelled out in advance.

Totally agree and they will. The Brexit shambles hasn't ended democracy blanch much as you want it to.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 4:12pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, we are starting off from a good point, with an acknowledgement that Sinn Fein won't publish a factual figure.

SF SF SF SF SF SF!!! ...the Irish government of the day supported by all the main parties will be making the proposal for Unity blanch. It is them you will have to find political representation to oppose...how's that going?

blanch152 · 20-01-2021 4:22pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF SF SF SF SF SF!!! ...the Irish government of the day supported by all the main parties will be making the proposal for Unity blanch. It is them you will have to find political representation to oppose...how's that going?

That wasn't the point, the point was that you acknowledged that Sinn Fein's figures on the cost of unification are not factual. I have been saying this for months and you have disagreed until now.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 5:18pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That wasn't the point, the point was that you acknowledged that Sinn Fein's figures on the cost of unification are not factual. I have been saying this for months and you have disagreed until now.

No, I said that if others had facts it would be up to them to contradict and the electorate to decide.

I have no idea if SF's figures are factual or not and have never argued on behalf of them.

BonnieSituation · 20-01-2021 5:42pm

downcow wrote: »

I am inventing nothing. Maybe you are realising how ridiculous what you and Bonnie have been saying really is.
You said clearly that in your view Unionist leaders would be part of negotiations to come up with the best united Ireland agreement scenario possible, ahead of any poll. Or do you now deny saying this, or do you think that those actions would increase Unionist chances of winning a border poll. You are just denying stuff you said.

Bonnie was also very clear in response to Tom (who actually surprised me) who suggested that maybe the guards would not be the best way to place Unionist areas. Bonnie said (not verbatim) absolutely must be the guards and that the Unionists must be faced down. I can see why you think that is ridiculous and will not encourage people to vote for a united Ireland, but you can trawl back and you will find Bonnie said it over the last 24hours.

Just let me check. Are you saying that you and Bonnie did not say these things?

Please point out where I said Unionists must be faced down.

And if you can't find it I would like a an apology and a retraction. Thanks.

BonnieSituation · 20-01-2021 5:44pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh dear. The Brexit referendum was ill-conceived, badly managed and the lack of preparation allowed for unlimited disinformation.

IF (and it is a big IF) we are ever to have a referendum on Irish unity, the full consequences need to be spelled out in advance.

You've heard of the referendum Commission right?

A bit disingenuous of you to assume that we would abandon all of our well-thought out and thought-of systems of governing referenda.

You'd swear we haven't had a referendum since June 2016 and have forgotten how they should be conducted...

BonnieSituation · 20-01-2021 5:45pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Tiocfaidh ár lá, but at what cost?

What actually changes if a referendum comes down on the side of a "United Ireland"?

I'm guessing a bit like Brexit day, half the population up North would be celebrating and waving their flags, while the other half hold their heads in their hands.

Mixed feelings down here too, Yes of course after decades of trying to dislodge NI from being joined to Britain, we've finally got them to break the link!

Happy Days?

Brilliant, 51% have voted in favour of a United Ireland, but just like Brexit, the celebration will be tinged with a cautious welcome when we realise what has really happened, with an angry Unionist population resisting integration into this State, or demanding that (if they do agree to unification) then we give them back their devolved administration in Stormont, only this time with Dublin footing the bill ....

As regards "Brits Out" welI I guess they (the Brits) will remain for evermore within the Unionist population, so the British element to their Nationality would remain strong, even if they were no longer living in a region of the UK.

Getting the North to vote for a UI will only be the beginning à la Brexit, and the long & bumpy road to be travelled in getting 'Unity" would begin.

At least they'll all be vaccinated by the time it happens, thanks to their NHS.

Tell us what you actually think? Cos that's just nonsense.

blanch152 · 20-01-2021 5:45pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You've heard of the referendum Commission right?

A bit disingenuous of you to assume that we would abandon all of our well-thought out and thought-of systems of governing referenda.

You'd swear we haven't had a referendum since June 2016 and have forgotten how they should be conducted...

It's not just a referendum down here. Sinn Fein will peddle lies up in the North as well.

BonnieSituation · 20-01-2021 5:46pm

maccored wrote: »

why do people ignore the reality that if a UI ever gets voted for, that the process needs to start with a nationwide discussion on what it would be, how it would be financed, how it could be delivered etc? Why do people immediately start demanding to know how much it will cost?

If that's how things were developed in the world and how progress was approached, we'd get nowhere

It's just another barrier that Partitionists and Unionists have to put up because they see the writing on the wall.

You see it with all the talk of having a qualified majority being required in the event of a referendum.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 5:49pm

blanch152 wrote: »

It's not just a referendum down here. Sinn Fein will peddle lies up in the North as well.

It isn't SF you have to worry about unless they are a majority government. It will be the Irish government and all the major parties proposing it and stating it can work.

blanch152 · 20-01-2021 5:56pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't SF you have to worry about unless they are a majority government. It will be the Irish government and all the major parties proposing it and stating it can work.

The Irish government can't interfere in a referendum in the North.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 6:00pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish government can't interfere in a referendum in the North.

SF are a political party in the north, they can't 'interfere' in a referendum either.

BonnieSituation · 20-01-2021 6:09pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish government can't interfere in a referendum in the North.

Who said they would?

Given that both referenda will be carried out along a similar timeline, should we be careful what we say 'down here' in favour of reunification to not to be seen as 'interfering' and make the poor Unionists and Partitionists feel uncomfortable?

Cop on.

downcow · 20-01-2021 6:27pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any Unionist who voted for the GFA and the British have AGREED to a UI in the GFA.

The DUP refused to accept the agreement (but try to hide behind it now in typical hypocritical fashion) while the UUP and Alliance did. The majority in NI did accept it. If you are suggesting they will recoil from that agreement after a successful poll then that is an entirely different scenario.

Is that what you are saying?

I am not aware of anyone suggesting that unionists will recoil from the agreement. The agreement is clear and any Unionist I know will accept that and abide by it. But as you say yourself, the day after a united Ireland, the GFA would cease to exist. Hamsterchops has simply pointed out the massive challenges of moving forward with the progressive country if a very significant minority do not want to be part of it and crave for devolution

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 6:32pm

downcow wrote: »

I am not aware of anyone suggesting that unionists will recoil from the agreement. The agreement is clear and any Unionist I know will accept that and abide by it. But as you say yourself, the day after a united Ireland, the GFA would cease to exist. Hamsterchops has simply pointed out the massive challenges of moving forward with the progressive country if a very significant minority do not want to be part of it and crave for devolution

Cease to exist because it will be superceded by a new bi-lateral agreement. It's Unionism's choice whether they want to be involved in the crafting of that agreement or not. The world has moved profoundly on before without belligerent Unionism and it will again.

downcow · 20-01-2021 6:37pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Please point out where I said Unionists must be faced down.

And if you can't find it I would like a an apology and a retraction. Thanks.

There you go Bonnie. Tom, to his credit, was suggesting that Unionist sensitivities should be taken on board in the policing of Northern Ireland. Your reply was quite clear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Tom View Post
"An Ulster police force would be less likely to face resistance from Unionists. Why is it a terrible idea?"

bonnies reply

"We have no need for a separate police force on this island.
The shackles of partition need to be destroyed in a UI"

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2021 6:41pm

downcow wrote: »

There you go Bonnie. Tom, to his credit, was suggesting that Unionist sensitivities should be taken on board in the policing of Northern Ireland. Your reply was quite clear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Tom View Post
"An Ulster police force would be less likely to face resistance from Unionists. Why is it a terrible idea?"

bonnies reply

"We have no need for a separate police force on this island.
The shackles of partition need to be destroyed in a UI"

Why would Unionism need a 'separate police force'? We saw what happened when you had one under your control before. It was reformed and renamed in disgrace.

What is it Unionism plans to do that they need a separate police force for?

downcow · 20-01-2021 6:54pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would Unionism need a 'separate police force'? We saw what happened when you had one under your control before. It was reformed and renamed in disgrace.

What is it Unionism plans to do that they need a separate police force for?

where have I said that Unionism needs a separate police force? That would be a ludicrous suggestion.
I was simply pointing out the massive challenge facing an Irish police force attempting to police major Unionist events, often with 50,000+ people in attendance. The inevitability, no matter how well-meaning both sides are, of this breaking down into serious violence, where the Irish police end up killing several Northern Unionists - and well, we all know for it will head from there.

There is always a possibility that the Irish police will be welcomed with open arms into loyalist communities and loyalist events - it is though a remote possibility.
Throughout the troubles and street conflicts, Unionists have always faced an interesting dilemma. That when faced by the RUC, PSNI, British Army, etc, they were facing the British Crown. This always tempered their behaviour. Even when people look at the events of the Drumcree, Twadell, etc; yes it looked horrific, but there was always a holding back, because they were facing the Crown.
Unfortunately I believe in a united Ireland scenario, those shackles will be off and all hell will be let loose. What happened at Drumcree and the likes will look a tea party when those facing loyalist crowds are doing so at the behest of their new rulers - their long-standing enemies ... And if Sinn Fein happened to be in power it would up the anti the even further.

I had never given a united Ireland much thought as I believe it is hypothetical nonsense that will never have. I believe Republicans have been fed little bits of hope to hang onto. The last few pages of this thread though have caused me to think, what would happen in my community if there actually was a poll and the United Ireland. I have surprised myself when I start to think of the inevitable direction and the spiral out of control. Southerners would be left regretting a united Ireland 10 times more than anyone regrets Brexit

Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

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