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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

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    #4322
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The GFA states very clearly that if a majority vote for a UI, the onus is on the British and Irish governments to make that happen.
    A 'UI', nit a re-partitioned island.

    Please lay out what would be involved in a devolved region.

    Tell me where it says that parties cannot work towards devolution post UI? Are are you just making stuff up again?


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    #4323
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Tell me where it says that parties cannot work towards devolution post UI? Are are you just making stuff up again?

    You can work towards colonising Mars for all I care. What you cannot do is demand it or make it a pre-condition.

    Good luck trying to achieve it after a successful vote.


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    #4324
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I think there would be a new police force encompassing the men and women of the PSNI and Gardai. They would police as they have done up to now. Loyalist and republican areas.

    So this new ‘force’ (we currently have a service) wouldn’t have an Irish language name or be controlled by the dail? Or would it?
    I think stuff like this is important realities to be considered by those suggesting a UI


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    #4325
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    You can work towards colonising Mars for all I care. What you cannot do is demand it or make it a pre-condition.

    Good luck trying to achieve it after a successful vote.

    There will be no preconditions or negotiations from unionists. That would be a rediculous strategy. The harder you make it th better


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    #4326
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    So this new ‘force’ (we currently have a service) wouldn’t have an Irish language name or be controlled by the dail? Or would it?
    I think stuff like this is important realities to be considered by those suggesting a UI

    It will be controlled by the Government of a UI. Why would it not have a dual language name?


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    #4327
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    There will be no preconditions or negotiations from unionists. That would be a rediculous strategy. The harder you make it th better

    Trust me on this downcow, the adults in Unionism will be at discussions. I'll bet my house on it.


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    #4328
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Trust me on this downcow, the adults in Unionism will be at discussions. I'll bet my house on it.

    I will bet my house they won’t. It would be ludicrous for them to negotiate a soft UI prior to any poll. What would be the logic? Do you mean they would be attempting to make a UI as attractive as possible ahead of a vote?. I think you have not thought this through Francie

    If there were ever a poll it will be the most vicious divisive process seen in living memory on this island. I would not be surprised if the was significant violence as it approached

    You are living in cuckoo land.


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    #4329
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It will be controlled by the Government of a UI. Why would it not have a dual language name?

    ....and you think that will work.
    Do you think trouble will break out when they police band parades? Do you think someone will get killed? Do you think it will escalate?
    What happened in the 60s when the British army tried to police republican areas. If you had your way you would drag the people of the whole island back into violent conflict.


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    #4330
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I will bet my house they won’t. It would be ludicrous for them to negotiate a soft UI prior to any poll. What would be the logic? Do you mean they would be attempting to make a UI as attractive as possible ahead of a vote?. I think you have not thought this through Francie

    If there were ever a poll it will be the most vicious divisive process seen in living memory on this island. I would not be surprised if the was significant violence as it approached

    You are living in cuckoo land.

    The British and Irish will produce White papers on what they propose. Unionists will be in discussions on what rights they want should a Poll on a UI suceed.

    Please stop with the silly foot stamping, mature Unionism will be there at the table, in discussion.


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    #4331
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    ....and you think that will work.
    Do you think trouble will break out when they police band parades? Do you think someone will get killed? Do you think it will escalate?
    What happened in the 60s when the British army tried to police republican areas. If you had your way you would drag the people of the whole island back into violent conflict.

    The British Army were a hostile force. The new police force will be made up of the same people who were in the PSNI and Gardai I would presume.


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    #4332
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    downcow wrote: »
    Tom where do you get the idea that the day after your hypothetical UI that there can be no aspiration for autonomy and a homeland for Northern Irish.

    Where, pray tell, might this homeland be?


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    #4333
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Where, pray tell, might this homeland be?

    Fascinating notion isn't it? Shame he won't elaborate. Maybe Jamie hasn't finished drawing the map. :)


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    #4334
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The British and Irish will produce White papers on what they propose. Unionists will be in discussions on what rights they want should a Poll on a UI suceed.

    Please stop with the silly foot stamping, mature Unionism will be there at the table, in discussion.
    You are not being logical Francie. Give us an example of a few things that unionists might agree before a border pole?

    ....so there is going to be additional proposals outside the gfa? What might they be? And are these proposals binding?
    Are we going to have referendums north and south ahead of the poll to pass these amendments to the gfa?

    Francie you are a wealth of information. Did yous decide this in the fellons club?


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    #4335
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    You are not being logical Francie. Give us an example of a few things that unionists might agree before a border pole?

    ....so there is going to be additional proposals outside the gfa? What might they be? And are these proposals binding?

    What?

    They will look to have their right to an identity protected, constitutional change, language rights, they might even look to go for a homeland...I don't know what exactly they will want, but they'll be there, discussing it.


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    #4336
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What?

    They will look to have their right to an identity protected, constitutional change, language rights, they might even look to go for a homeland...I don't know what exactly they will want, but they'll be there, discussing it.

    So let’s imagine they are successful in these negotiations and get some of the stuff you mention. Would that make a vote for a UI more likely or less likely? What do you think?
    Then go and have a sleep on whether you think you are apply any logic?

    Turkeys and Christmas comes to mind.


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    #4337
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What?

    They will look to have their right to an identity protected, constitutional change, language rights, they might even look to go for a homeland...I don't know what exactly they will want, but they'll be there, discussing it.
    I hope they agree to suppress our identity, have no constitutional change, put Irish language signs on the Shankill road and refuse any autonomy. Will will sort out any unionist waverers lol


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    #4338
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    So let’s imagine they are successful in these negotiations and get some of the stuff you mention. Would that make a vote for a UI more likely or less likely? What do you think?
    Then go and have a sleep on whether you think you are apply any logic?

    Turkeys and Christmas comes to mind.

    Well you sleep on the alternative...do the DUP immature thing - fail to engage and the world moves on without you. (How many fecking times does that lesson have to be taught to them) or do the mature thing and engage and have some input to your fate.

    Unionism's choice and I believe there are enough (More than enough) adults in Unionism that will engage.


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    #4339
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    I think there's merit in the idea of retaining a northern police service after unification, maybe push it out to all of Ulster to take in what were the border counties, not sure how it would work though.


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    #4340
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I hope they agree to suppress our identity, have no constitutional change, put Irish language signs on the Shankill road and refuse any autonomy. Will will sort out any unionist waverers lol

    Sure you would. But any adult will tell you that is not going to happen. You need a decent strategy downcow.


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    #4341
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    I think there's merit in the idea of retaining a northern police service after unification, maybe push it out to all of Ulster to take in what were the border counties, not sure how it would work though.

    Nope. Terrible idea.


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    #4342
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Nope. Terrible idea.

    An Ulster police force would be less likely to face resistance from Unionists. Why is it a terrible idea?


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    #4343
    Bigus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Bigus


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Nope. Terrible idea.

    Sure, there’s already been a reverse take over of the Gardai by the PSNI second in command , so who could object to him commanding the new all Ireland force!

    Clever move.

    We just need a few irish American hedge funds to buy up all of eastern NI prime property to complete matters . This along with a couple o billion from the EU will complete the picture. It’s great to see the DEEP state working for good for a change . UI by stealth. So good so far.


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    #4344
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    An Ulster police force would be less likely to face resistance from Unionists. Why is it a terrible idea?

    Anything that "others" any arm of the state reduces the legitimacy of it in the eyes of some.

    We have no need for a separate police force on this island.

    The shackles of partition need to be destroyed in a UI not highlighted.


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    #4345
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Well you sleep on the alternative...do the DUP immature thing - fail to engage and the world moves on without you. (How many fecking times does that lesson have to be taught to them) or do the mature thing and engage and have some input to your fate.

    Unionism's choice and I believe there are enough (More than enough) adults in Unionism that will engage.

    I am really interested in your answer to my questions. Any chance?


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    #4346
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I am really interested in your answer to my questions. Any chance?

    What?


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    #4347
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »
    Not at all. The issues remain exactly the same - exacerbated even, as they are simply transferred from one jurisdiction to another.

    No chance. What use would the likes of Sammy Wilson and Gregory Campbell be to the unionist electorate after a United Ireland? Their entire reason for being would be no more.
    If anything it would worsen matters, as the certain modus vivendi that has settled on the province would be disturbed.

    Again you have a problem with sequencing, if not reality. Partition allowed to worst elements in both jurisdictions to gain control. We have neutered the counter-revolutionaries in the Catholic Church in the south, yet Paisley's Free Presbyterian sect make up the largest religious denomination in the DUP despite numbering fewer than half the population of Leitrim.

    Unification would provide a good opportunity to complete the job of secularisation of Ireland and ending the fundamentalist Orange/Protestant choke-hold on unionist politics in the northeast.


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    #4348
    Natterjack from Kerry
    Registered Users Posts: 623 ✭✭✭Natterjack from Kerry


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Unification would provide a good opportunity to complete the job of secularisation of Ireland and ending the fundamentalist Orange/Protestant choke-hold on unionist politics in the northeast.

    The idea of secularising or improving the situation of half a million unionist protestant by diluting them into 6 million catholics, is hardly likely to succeed better than diluting half a million republican catholics into 50 million UK protestants.

    Religeous cleansing talk is hardly likely to tempt them either.

    Half a million in NI would favour joining a Republic. Half a million are equally strongly wedded to the future of remaining in the UK

    And 800k who are ideologically wedded to neither option and will take a pragmatic rational decision. A majority of that cohort choosing a UK exit has no real prospect. The recognise that the better realistic option is to improve the admittedly imperfect situation rather than wrench it to a big unknown which switches from antagonising one half million to another.


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    #4349
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    How’s your head this morning Francie? You were definitely consuming too much soup last night leading you to suggest the unionist politicians would try to negotiate the most attractive UI and thereby the largest UI vote.

    That is the best one I have heard yet.


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    #4350
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,377 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    How’s your head this morning Francie? You were definitely consuming too much soup last night leading you to suggest the unionist politicians would try to negotiate the most attractive UI and thereby the largest UI vote.

    That is the best one I have heard yet.

    So the world will move on without you again. Your loss.

    You, yourself cannot help yourself making demands if there is a UI. Mature Unionism will not be letting the UK come up with a White Paper without input. I'm sure we'll be treated to a bout of Never Never Never but they'll be there.


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    #4351
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,317 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So the world will move on without you again. Your loss.

    You, yourself cannot help yourself making demands if there is a UI. Mature Unionism will not be letting the UK come up with a White Paper without input. I'm sure we'll be treated to a bout of Never Never Never but they'll be there.

    I suppose I feel reassured now when I see the fantasy some of you guys are living in.
    You think unionist are going to try to make a UI look as attractive as possible ahead of a UI vote lol
    Bonnie thinks the the Guards with irish and tricolours on their uniforms are going to police eg the twelfth LOL Here's is just one random of the 600 bands they will police (wind up) at the 3,000 parades LOL. Are you guys for real? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiNHseHl8jY
    ....and these unfortunately will not be popcorn moments - the repercussions are to terrible to think about.

    The best case scenario for republicans, which i don't think has a snowball in hells chance of materialising, is that we have a few years of horrendous street violence and sectarian killing and the unionist community is finally broken by the Irish who win and we are left with a deeply damaged section of society living as outsiders in this new Ireland, licking their wounds and not engaging. Why would southerners countenance this. Why would they risk sending their sons and daughters up to the north to die for something that has little to do with them and just so as they can put down the 1 million in the north who don't want to be part of their little romantic project


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