Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They will be addressed as they were in the Scottish referendum in White Papers from the two governments.

There was nothing inherently wrong with the Brexit referendum itself, that people choose to lie and misrepresent was the problem/issue.

Oh dear. The Brexit referendum was ill-conceived, badly managed and the lack of preparation allowed for unlimited disinformation.

IF (and it is a big IF) we are ever to have a referendum on Irish unity, the full consequences need to be spelled out in advance.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If SF propose a figure, it will be up to those who have the facts to counter that.

That's how democracy works.

Well, we are starting off from a good point, with an acknowledgement that Sinn Fein won't publish a factual figure.

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh dear. The Brexit referendum was ill-conceived, badly managed and the lack of preparation allowed for unlimited disinformation.

IF (and it is a big IF) we are ever to have a referendum on Irish unity, the full consequences need to be spelled out in advance.

Totally agree and they will. The Brexit shambles hasn't ended democracy blanch much as you want it to.

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, we are starting off from a good point, with an acknowledgement that Sinn Fein won't publish a factual figure.

SF SF SF SF SF SF!!! ...the Irish government of the day supported by all the main parties will be making the proposal for Unity blanch. It is them you will have to find political representation to oppose...how's that going?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF SF SF SF SF SF!!! ...the Irish government of the day supported by all the main parties will be making the proposal for Unity blanch. It is them you will have to find political representation to oppose...how's that going?

That wasn't the point, the point was that you acknowledged that Sinn Fein's figures on the cost of unification are not factual. I have been saying this for months and you have disagreed until now.

blanch152 wrote: »

That wasn't the point, the point was that you acknowledged that Sinn Fein's figures on the cost of unification are not factual. I have been saying this for months and you have disagreed until now.

No, I said that if others had facts it would be up to them to contradict and the electorate to decide.

I have no idea if SF's figures are factual or not and have never argued on behalf of them.

downcow wrote: »

I am inventing nothing. Maybe you are realising how ridiculous what you and Bonnie have been saying really is.
You said clearly that in your view Unionist leaders would be part of negotiations to come up with the best united Ireland agreement scenario possible, ahead of any poll. Or do you now deny saying this, or do you think that those actions would increase Unionist chances of winning a border poll. You are just denying stuff you said.

Bonnie was also very clear in response to Tom (who actually surprised me) who suggested that maybe the guards would not be the best way to place Unionist areas. Bonnie said (not verbatim) absolutely must be the guards and that the Unionists must be faced down. I can see why you think that is ridiculous and will not encourage people to vote for a united Ireland, but you can trawl back and you will find Bonnie said it over the last 24hours.

Just let me check. Are you saying that you and Bonnie did not say these things?

Please point out where I said Unionists must be faced down.

And if you can't find it I would like a an apology and a retraction. Thanks.

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh dear. The Brexit referendum was ill-conceived, badly managed and the lack of preparation allowed for unlimited disinformation.

IF (and it is a big IF) we are ever to have a referendum on Irish unity, the full consequences need to be spelled out in advance.

You've heard of the referendum Commission right?

A bit disingenuous of you to assume that we would abandon all of our well-thought out and thought-of systems of governing referenda.

You'd swear we haven't had a referendum since June 2016 and have forgotten how they should be conducted...

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Tiocfaidh ár lá, but at what cost?

What actually changes if a referendum comes down on the side of a "United Ireland"?

I'm guessing a bit like Brexit day, half the population up North would be celebrating and waving their flags, while the other half hold their heads in their hands.

Mixed feelings down here too, Yes of course after decades of trying to dislodge NI from being joined to Britain, we've finally got them to break the link!

Happy Days?

Brilliant, 51% have voted in favour of a United Ireland, but just like Brexit, the celebration will be tinged with a cautious welcome when we realise what has really happened, with an angry Unionist population resisting integration into this State, or demanding that (if they do agree to unification) then we give them back their devolved administration in Stormont, only this time with Dublin footing the bill ....

As regards "Brits Out" welI I guess they (the Brits) will remain for evermore within the Unionist population, so the British element to their Nationality would remain strong, even if they were no longer living in a region of the UK.

Getting the North to vote for a UI will only be the beginning à la Brexit, and the long & bumpy road to be travelled in getting 'Unity" would begin.

At least they'll all be vaccinated by the time it happens, thanks to their NHS.

Tell us what you actually think? Cos that's just nonsense.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You've heard of the referendum Commission right?

A bit disingenuous of you to assume that we would abandon all of our well-thought out and thought-of systems of governing referenda.

You'd swear we haven't had a referendum since June 2016 and have forgotten how they should be conducted...

It's not just a referendum down here. Sinn Fein will peddle lies up in the North as well.

maccored wrote: »

why do people ignore the reality that if a UI ever gets voted for, that the process needs to start with a nationwide discussion on what it would be, how it would be financed, how it could be delivered etc? Why do people immediately start demanding to know how much it will cost?

If that's how things were developed in the world and how progress was approached, we'd get nowhere

It's just another barrier that Partitionists and Unionists have to put up because they see the writing on the wall.

You see it with all the talk of having a qualified majority being required in the event of a referendum.

blanch152 wrote: »

It's not just a referendum down here. Sinn Fein will peddle lies up in the North as well.

It isn't SF you have to worry about unless they are a majority government. It will be the Irish government and all the major parties proposing it and stating it can work.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't SF you have to worry about unless they are a majority government. It will be the Irish government and all the major parties proposing it and stating it can work.

The Irish government can't interfere in a referendum in the North.

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish government can't interfere in a referendum in the North.

SF are a political party in the north, they can't 'interfere' in a referendum either.

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish government can't interfere in a referendum in the North.

Who said they would?

Given that both referenda will be carried out along a similar timeline, should we be careful what we say 'down here' in favour of reunification to not to be seen as 'interfering' and make the poor Unionists and Partitionists feel uncomfortable?

Cop on.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any Unionist who voted for the GFA and the British have AGREED to a UI in the GFA.

The DUP refused to accept the agreement (but try to hide behind it now in typical hypocritical fashion) while the UUP and Alliance did. The majority in NI did accept it. If you are suggesting they will recoil from that agreement after a successful poll then that is an entirely different scenario.

Is that what you are saying?

I am not aware of anyone suggesting that unionists will recoil from the agreement. The agreement is clear and any Unionist I know will accept that and abide by it. But as you say yourself, the day after a united Ireland, the GFA would cease to exist. Hamsterchops has simply pointed out the massive challenges of moving forward with the progressive country if a very significant minority do not want to be part of it and crave for devolution

downcow wrote: »

I am not aware of anyone suggesting that unionists will recoil from the agreement. The agreement is clear and any Unionist I know will accept that and abide by it. But as you say yourself, the day after a united Ireland, the GFA would cease to exist. Hamsterchops has simply pointed out the massive challenges of moving forward with the progressive country if a very significant minority do not want to be part of it and crave for devolution

Cease to exist because it will be superceded by a new bi-lateral agreement. It's Unionism's choice whether they want to be involved in the crafting of that agreement or not. The world has moved profoundly on before without belligerent Unionism and it will again.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Please point out where I said Unionists must be faced down.

And if you can't find it I would like a an apology and a retraction. Thanks.

There you go Bonnie. Tom, to his credit, was suggesting that Unionist sensitivities should be taken on board in the policing of Northern Ireland. Your reply was quite clear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Tom View Post
"An Ulster police force would be less likely to face resistance from Unionists. Why is it a terrible idea?"

bonnies reply

"We have no need for a separate police force on this island.
The shackles of partition need to be destroyed in a UI"

downcow wrote: »

There you go Bonnie. Tom, to his credit, was suggesting that Unionist sensitivities should be taken on board in the policing of Northern Ireland. Your reply was quite clear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Tom View Post
"An Ulster police force would be less likely to face resistance from Unionists. Why is it a terrible idea?"

bonnies reply

"We have no need for a separate police force on this island.
The shackles of partition need to be destroyed in a UI"

Why would Unionism need a 'separate police force'? We saw what happened when you had one under your control before. It was reformed and renamed in disgrace.

What is it Unionism plans to do that they need a separate police force for?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would Unionism need a 'separate police force'? We saw what happened when you had one under your control before. It was reformed and renamed in disgrace.

What is it Unionism plans to do that they need a separate police force for?

where have I said that Unionism needs a separate police force? That would be a ludicrous suggestion.
I was simply pointing out the massive challenge facing an Irish police force attempting to police major Unionist events, often with 50,000+ people in attendance. The inevitability, no matter how well-meaning both sides are, of this breaking down into serious violence, where the Irish police end up killing several Northern Unionists - and well, we all know for it will head from there.

There is always a possibility that the Irish police will be welcomed with open arms into loyalist communities and loyalist events - it is though a remote possibility.
Throughout the troubles and street conflicts, Unionists have always faced an interesting dilemma. That when faced by the RUC, PSNI, British Army, etc, they were facing the British Crown. This always tempered their behaviour. Even when people look at the events of the Drumcree, Twadell, etc; yes it looked horrific, but there was always a holding back, because they were facing the Crown.
Unfortunately I believe in a united Ireland scenario, those shackles will be off and all hell will be let loose. What happened at Drumcree and the likes will look a tea party when those facing loyalist crowds are doing so at the behest of their new rulers - their long-standing enemies ... And if Sinn Fein happened to be in power it would up the anti the even further.

I had never given a united Ireland much thought as I believe it is hypothetical nonsense that will never have. I believe Republicans have been fed little bits of hope to hang onto. The last few pages of this thread though have caused me to think, what would happen in my community if there actually was a poll and the United Ireland. I have surprised myself when I start to think of the inevitable direction and the spiral out of control. Southerners would be left regretting a united Ireland 10 times more than anyone regrets Brexit

downcow wrote: »

where have I said that Unionism needs a separate police force? That would be a ludicrous suggestion.
I was simply pointing out the massive challenge facing an Irish police force attempting to police major Unionist events, often with 50,000+ people in attendance. The inevitability, no matter how well-meaning both sides are, of this breaking down into serious violence, where the Irish police end up killing several Northern Unionists - and well, we all know for it will head from there.

It will be a police force made up of the PSNI and Gardai under the control of the new Irish government. Law and order issues will be dealt with by them.

[There is always a possibility that the Irish police will be welcomed with open arms into loyalist communities and loyalist events - it is though a remote possibility.
Throughout the troubles and street conflicts, Unionists have always faced an interesting dilemma. That when faced by the RUC, PSNI, British Army, etc, they were facing the British Crown. This always tempered their behaviour. Even when people look at the events of the Drumcree, Twadell, etc; yes it looked horrific, but there was always a holding back, because they were facing the Crown.

It will be a police force made up of the PSNI and Gardai under the control of the new Irish government. Law and order issues will be dealt with by them.

Impenetrable posting here from you again downcow, if you don't want a separate force, what the hell do you want?

downcow wrote: »

There you go Bonnie. Tom, to his credit, was suggesting that Unionist sensitivities should be taken on board in the policing of Northern Ireland. Your reply was quite clear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Tom View Post
"An Ulster police force would be less likely to face resistance from Unionists. Why is it a terrible idea?"

bonnies reply

"We have no need for a separate police force on this island.
The shackles of partition need to be destroyed in a UI"

Excuse me, I asked for you to point out where I said "Unionuts need to be faced down"

Apologise and retract if you can't find it.

Thank you.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Excuse me, I asked for you to point out where I said "Unionuts need to be faced down"

Apologise and retract if you can't find it.

Thank you.

That is what your post is saying. Are we now so pedantic on here that we have to quote verbatim ?
....and you are excused

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It will be a police force made up of the PSNI and Gardai under the control of the new Irish government. Law and order issues will be dealt with by them.

Impenetrable posting here from you again downcow, if you don't want a separate force, what the hell do you want?

You are the one bestowing the benifits of a UI. It’s up to you to come up with solutions.

What I want? Continued benefits of life in the U.K.

downcow wrote: »

You are the one bestowing the benifits of a UI. It’s up to you to come up with solutions.

What I want? Continued benefits of life in the U.K.

An all island police force is practical, cost effect and sensible for island security.

What benefits? Can you list them?

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It will be a police force made up of the PSNI and Gardai under the control of the new Irish government. Law and order issues will be dealt with by them.

I was thinking about this last night. We could have four regional divisions, Connacht, Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. They would all be under one authority, and would not be confined to their region, but they could have emblems reflecting each region. The Ulster region could have a crown and red hand or whatever. That would help Unionists to buy in to the new arrangements.

We're going to have to be creative and flexible lads.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I was thinking about this last night. We could have four regional divisions, Connacht, Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. They would all be under one authority, and would not be confined to their region, but they could have emblems reflecting each region. The Ulster region could have a crown and red hand or whatever. That would help Unionists to buy in to the new arrangements.

We're going to have to be creative and flexible lads.

Yep, could go with that no problem. What would be critically important for any integrity would be that it is under the control of and answerable to the new government and not separate in anyway.

Of course, as usual, downcow won't elaborate on what Unionists are planning on doing that would require a separate police force. But that is the way things go around here.

P.S. As an Ulsterman I would object to being policed by somebody wearing a crown as an emblem, but if compromise had to made I could live with it.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course, as usual, downcow won't elaborate on what Unionists are planning on doing that would require a separate police force. But that is the way things go around here.
t.

That’s a rediculous question. That would be like asking a nationalist in the 60s or 70s what they were planning on doing that they would not be happy being policed by the RUC.

downcow wrote: »

That’s a rediculous question. That would be like asking a nationalist in the 60s or 70s what they were planning on doing that they would not be happy being policed by the RUC.

You would have gotten an answer. The RUC is a predominately protestant force that is sectarian. As the inquiry that led to it's reform and renaming found. Not fit for purpose.