Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I already said it is great to see ROb. Hope I'm not one of the usual suspects? I never played the macabre competitive game blanch and downcow etc wanted to play with this tragedy for everyone on the island regardless of their politics.

I'm just glad to see the British government utilising EU rules to enable them to get the vaccine out so quick.

I'm sure those 12500 people in Ireland that have been promised a jab will get it despite the Tories constantly over-promising.

My comments on the UK response thread, still stand; it doesn't make a lick of sense outside of the usual flag-waving bravado to jump ahead the way they did, but hopefully it works out for them

BonnieSituation

pixelburp wrote: »

This conversation has become pretty fatuous & infantile if somehow "... who got the vaccine first" becomes some kind of point of pride to crow about, or indeed rub in the face of those yet to apply their own strategy. There's a long, painful road ahead regardless of what vaccine is chosen or how it's implemented; and the success or failure of NI is not contingent on it being the first in the UK to get a vaccine for a pandemic that has stripped the world raw (beyond the presumption it being the smallest state means it's the most obvious test case). There's plenty of ammunition on both sides from the years leading up to 2020.

It is the eyes of narrow-minded* Unionists. Pathetic flag-waving as always.

If only you could inject flags...






*'Narrow-minded' is a bit tautologous here I would think. By definition, aren't Unionists narrow-minded?

downcow

Just watching news and they visited a business in Northern Ireland
The owner said that of his 60 employees, 35 are from ROI.
Doesn’t fit with the nonsense posted the other day about it all being one way traffic re employment and 50,000 northerners on Roi building sites.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Just watching news and they visited a business in Northern Ireland
The owner said that of his 60 employees, 35 are from ROI.
Doesn’t fit with the nonsense posted the other day about it all being one way traffic re employment and 50,000 northerners on Roi building sites.

Cool

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Just watching news and they visited a business in Northern Ireland
The owner said that of his 60 employees, 35 are from ROI.
Doesn’t fit with the nonsense posted the other day about it all being one way traffic re employment and 50,000 northerners on Roi building sites.

There was nothing posted the other day about 'oneway traffic' is the reason.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There was nothing posted the other day about 'oneway traffic' is the reason.

There absolutely was Francie. Don’t put me to the bother of finding it

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

There absolutely was Francie. Don’t put me to the bother of finding it

Sure go wan. You're doing nowt else.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

There absolutely was Francie. Don’t put me to the bother of finding it

There absolutely wasn't anything said about 'one way traffic'>
A poster wonder why so may had to come south to work and asked was the reason NI is one of the most underfunded parts of the UK.

Never did they claim it was 'one way'.

Annd9

downcow wrote: »

There absolutely was Francie. Don’t put me to the bother of finding it

I imagine you are referring to me downcow , please find the quote of one way traffic regarding cross border worker's . Im talking about a certain sector which I'm sure you know but are choosing to ignore .

Today is a perfect example of what I'm talking about , 41 lads inducted onto site with 17 having a northern address and phone number . This is something I obviously can not prove without splashing details on the internet but why would I lie ? What possible benefit does it have to me ? I'm just observing what the situation is and you can choose to believe it or not .

downcow

Annd9 wrote: »

I imagine you are referring to me downcow , please find the quote of one way traffic regarding cross border worker's . Im talking about a certain sector which I'm sure you know but are choosing to ignore .

Today is a perfect example of what I'm talking about , 41 lads inducted onto site with 17 having a northern address and phone number . This is something I obviously can not prove without splashing details on the internet but why would I lie ? What possible benefit does it have to me ? I'm just observing what the situation is and you can choose to believe it or not .

Thanks. I appreciate your honesty. Francie regularly claims the earth is flat.

I understood the implication of your post was that lots more northerners were travelling south for work that southerners travelling north.
Thanks for the clarification.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Thanks. I appreciate your honesty. Francie regularly claims the earth is flat.

I understood the implication of your post was that lots more northerners were travelling south for work that southerners travelling north.
Thanks for the clarification.

Jesus...you are some chancer downcow.

YOU said people were talking about 'one way traffic' thinking you'd get away with it.
You didn't and decided to have a pop at me rather than accept you were wrong. Did-ingenuous and scurrilous to boot.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

lots more northerners were travelling south for work that southerners travelling north

I see work vans from the north in Cork quite often. I'd imagine more workers come south than go north in aggregate. Not that I have any great concerns about 26 <> 6 commerce and employment; on the contrary, I welcome it as it's evidence of an all Ireland economy weaving itself together.

This stitching together of the Ireland economy will accelerate now that Britain seeks to diverge, ever further, from EU trading norms.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I see work vans from the north in Cork quite often. I'd imagine more workers come south than go north in aggregate. Not that I have any great concerns about 26 <> 6 commerce and employment; on the contrary, I welcome it as it's evidence of an all Ireland economy weaving itself together.

This stitching together of the Ireland economy will accelerate now that Britain seeks to diverge, ever further, from EU trading norms.

I would agree that cross border traffic / commerce makes total sense, as with practically every international border in the world.

I do actually have the facts about traffic crossing the border and it is almost exactly equal currently, but I guess it ebbs an flies a little over the years.

I don’t agree about the stitching together due to trade, otherwise you are fairly tightly stitched to UK

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I would agree that cross border traffic / commerce makes total sense, as with practically every international border in the world.

I do actually have the facts about traffic crossing the border and it is almost exactly equal currently, but I guess it ebbs an flies a little over the years.

I don’t agree about the stitching together due to trade, otherwise you are fairly tightly stitched to UK

.....until Brexit ran a giant hole through the status quo, Ireland was fairly tightly stitched to the UK though, Downcow. Britain made a decision to undo that, not Ireland.

Countries that don't have seas between them do tend to be more closely stitched though...on account of actually being stitched together so to speak.

downcow

Due to brexit I have been watching RTÉ news a little this week.
Culturally very different, but I have found it interesting.
Tonight I heard of the burning of cork. I was quite taken aback. I had never heard of it. Shocking.

Tell me this. Who made up K company in the main ? Were they British soldiers, were they Irish Protestants or were the Irish Catholics? And what was their agenda?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Due to brexit I have been watching RTÉ news a little this week.

You getting ready for the 'change over'?

Culturally very different, but I have found it interesting.
Tonight I heard of the burning of cork. I was quite taken aback. I had never heard of it. Shocking.

Tell me this. Who made up K company in the main ? Were they British soldiers, were they Irish Protestants or were the Irish Catholics? And what was their agenda?

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/1211/1183865-burning-of-cork/

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Due to brexit I have been watching RTÉ news a little this week.
Culturally very different, but I have found it interesting.
Tonight I heard of the burning of cork. I was quite taken aback. I had never heard of it. Shocking.

Tell me this. Who made up K company in the main ? Were they British soldiers, were they Irish Protestants or were the Irish Catholics? And what was their agenda?

There was lots of Protestants in the IRA at the time and plenty of Catholic unionists/loyalists. It doesn't play out a simply as you might presume.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There was lots of Protestants in the IRA at the time and plenty of Catholic unionists/loyalists. It doesn't play out a simply as you might presume.

I wasn’t saying it played out simply. I am trying to learn. Were the people who burnt cork british? Who were they? Where did they live? What was their overarching objective?
These are my questions. The burning was clearly terrible.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I wasn’t saying it played out simply. I am trying to learn. Were the people who burnt cork british? Who were they? Where did they live? What was their overarching objective?
These are my questions. The burning was clearly terrible.

I posted an article on it. Do you research, better late than never I suppose.

saabsaab

downcow wrote: »

I wasn’t saying it played out simply. I am trying to learn. Were the people who burnt cork british? Who were they? Where did they live? What was their overarching objective?
These are my questions. The burning was clearly terrible.

They were British. 'Auxiliaries' or Officer Cadets recruited mainly from ex British army officers or military brought in for the purpose of taking the fight to the IRA. Churchill's brainchild afik. They were technically under the RIC command but not in practice.


The burning was probably revenge after the killing of 18 Auxiliaries in a convoy earlier.


They looted first and then burned at will (Both Unionist and non-unionist businesses)

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Were the people who burnt cork british? Who were they?

Yes they were mainly from Britain and often were former WWI veterans.

Where did they live?

They lived in barracks.

What was their overarching objective?

To shore up the RIC and uphold British rule. One divisional RIC Auxiliary commander, Lieutenant Colonel Gerald Smyth, made the following chilling remarks to his men in Kerry:

"You may make mistakes and innocent persons may be shot but that cannot be helped and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man."

Some time later in Cork:

...a six-man IRA team led by Dan "Sandow" O'Donovan ... allegedly said to him, "Colonel, were not your orders to shoot on sight? Well you are in sight now, so prepare." Colonel Smyth jumped to his feet before being riddled with bullets.

Later still in Co. Down:

Colonel Gerald Smyth was buried at Banbridge, County Down on 21 July 1920. His funeral was followed by a three-day sectarian riot during which a Protestant man William Steritt was shot and killed, two days after attending his funeral. Smyth was honoured by the Orange Order who renamed Loyal Orange Lodge 518 as the 'Colonel Smyth Memorial Lodge'

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yes they were mainly from Britain and often were former WWI veterans.



They lived in barracks.



To shore up the RIC and uphold British rule. One divisional RIC Auxiliary commander, Lieutenant Colonel Gerald Smyth, made the following chilling remarks to his men in Kerry:

"You may make mistakes and innocent persons may be shot but that cannot be helped and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man."

Some time later in Cork:

...a six-man IRA team led by Dan "Sandow" O'Donovan ... allegedly said to him, "Colonel, were not your orders to shoot on sight? Well you are in sight now, so prepare." Colonel Smyth jumped to his feet before being riddled with bullets.

Later still in Co. Down:

Colonel Gerald Smyth was buried at Banbridge, County Down on 21 July 1920. His funeral was followed by a three-day sectarian riot during which a Protestant man William Steritt was shot and killed, two days after attending his funeral. Smyth was honoured by the Orange Order who renamed Loyal Orange Lodge 518 as the 'Colonel Smyth Memorial Lodge'

Oh dear. Not a good person to name a lodge after if this is all correct. Sounds like some lodges had a similar naming policy as the GAA

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Due to brexit I have been watching RTÉ news a little this week.
Culturally very different, but I have found it interesting.
Tonight I heard of the burning of cork. I was quite taken aback. I had never heard of it. Shocking.

Tell me this. Who made up K company in the main ? Were they British soldiers, were they Irish Protestants or were the Irish Catholics? And what was their agenda?

That's funny, I had access to RTE News when I lived in the North, I have access to BBC News here and I've consistently followed both pretty much my entire life. They're news, hardly hugely culturally divergent. Certainly no more than the Express and the Guardian. As much as you're always trying to look for differences to try and push your odd agenda, there are probably fewer differences between the average Nordie and the average Cork man than there are the average Glaswegian and the average Kentishman.

Downcow, in both these islands we have far more in common than separate us. You spend too much time projecting your insecurities trying to obsess over minor differences between your British identity and my Irish identity. You speak of the average Irish person as if they're an alien.....a Dub born and bred in Dalkey has more in common with a Londoner born and bred in Kensington than either of them have with us.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

That's funny, I had access to RTE News when I lived in the North, I have access to BBC News here and I've consistently followed both pretty much my entire life. They're news, hardly hugely culturally divergent. Certainly no more than the Express and the Guardian. As much as you're always trying to look for differences to try and push your odd agenda, there are probably fewer differences between the average Nordie and the average Cork man than there are the average Glaswegian and the average Kentishman.

Downcow, in both these islands we have far more in common than separate us. You spend too much time projecting your insecurities trying to obsess over minor differences between your British identity and my Irish identity. You speak of the average Irish person as if they're an alien.....a Dub born and bred in Dalkey has more in common with a Londoner born and bred in Kensington than either of them have with us.

No idea where that came from. I think that’s your stuff and your insecurities coming out.

I have watched RTÉ 6 o’clock news a couple of nights this week to get a handle on how the Irish were approaching brexit deal. I found it interesting and informative
I also found it quite culturally different. I am used watching ni local news and UK national news. RTÉ news was a very different experience

So no idea why you had a go at me!

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

No idea where that came from. I think that’s your stuff and your insecurities coming out.

I have watched RTÉ 6 o’clock news a couple of nights this week to get a handle on how the Irish were approaching brexit deal. I found it interesting and informative
I also found it quite culturally different. I am used watching ni local news and UK national news. RTÉ news was a very different experience

So no idea why you had a go at me!

Because it's one of the most bizarre takes I've ever heard Downcow. Like I said, RTE News and BBC News are both fairly middle of the road non-controversial programmes. Holding them up as some portrayal of significant cultural differences is just odd. As I said, they're certainly less culturally divergent than The Express and The Guardian are, and both those are available in your home town I'm sure. About as different as the BBC News is from the ITV News or Sky News really. My point is that it isn't the big marker of some sort of cultural gulf between you and someone a handful of miles down the road you're trying to suggest.

My insecurities? Ah yes, me pointing out how the average Irish person and the average British person have much more in common than separates us definitely shows insecurity.

I'm an Irish person, living in Ireland, there is no question about that ever changing where I've chosen to settle with my own family. Maybe I was a bit more insecure when I lived in the North and had a harder time seeing it then. Maybe I would've got caught up in trying to point out cultural differences between the English and my community then too, instead of just acknowledging we aren't really that different when you take off the, 'us vs them' glasses we're all a bit to fond of back home?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Because it's one of the most bizarre takes I've ever heard Downcow. Like I said, RTE News and BBC News are both fairly middle of the road non-controversial programmes. Holding them up as some portrayal of significant cultural differences is just odd. As I said, they're certainly less culturally divergent than The Express and The Guardian are, and both those are available in your home town I'm sure. About as different as the BBC News is from the ITV News or Sky News really. My point is that it isn't the big marker of some sort of cultural gulf between you and someone a handful of miles down the road you're trying to suggest.

My insecurities? Ah yes, me pointing out how the average Irish person and the average British person have much more in common than separates us definitely shows insecurity.

I'm an Irish person, living in Ireland, there is no question about that ever changing where I've chosen to settle with my own family. Maybe I was a bit more insecure when I lived in the North and had a harder time seeing it then. Maybe I would've got caught up in trying to point out cultural differences between the English and my community then too, instead of just acknowledging we aren't really that different when you take off the, 'us vs them' glasses we're all a bit to fond of back home?

Take a look back at what you are making a song and a dance about.

I was complementary of RTÉ news and said I leant stuff. I also pointed out that it was quite different. Big deal.

But let me explain what you tunnel vision seems to be missing and how it looked different to me.

A few examples to ground it for you

1) Programme started with a one minute acknowledgement of how important the Roman Catholic Church is in ROI. This would be absurd anywhere in the UK. And apart from RCs no one would have a clue what it even was. I had an experience doing cross community work where I encountered the angelas, but none of my friends or family would have a clue.
2) I found the focus on parochial sports really interesting (not a problem, just interesting). Tv sport in the uk is dominated by football, motor racing, etc. World sports. The uk tv does have a little bit of more colonial parochial stuff but it’s rugby, cricket hockey. NI regional tv certainly covers your sports but not in the way RTÉ done it.
3) just the way the cork burning was presented. It was assumed all viewers knew of it and knew who each side was. If that was presented on uk tv whether national or regional it would be presented in a very different way. I guess no one on the mainland knows it happened and at least 50% of NI doesn’t know it happened.
4). A general lack of diversity on RTÉ. All uk regions have diversity panels meeting to view and advise on content on news programmes. These panels include people who are black, Eastern European’s, people with disabilities, range of sexual orientation, etc. Their task is to ensure minorities are well represented on news programmes. I found the lack of diversity on RTÉ quite stark. White, catholic, Irish. I didn’t see any minorities represented I don’t think you will watch to many regional evenings news programmes in uk and not se diversity. Try watching utv news next time and note diversity of content. So RTÉ looked like it was representing a monolithic country

So I wasn’t meaning to be harsh. It just felt like and different world to me. You used the term alien - that’s extreme

lawred2

Think you'll find most people want to see the back of the Angelus.. it's been said to you before. It's in no way to be taken as a measure of the importance of RC church in modern Ireland.

It pisses me off mightily to be honest that it's still there.

As for British people being ignorant of imperial doings...

Now there's a shocker. Imagine that.

lawred2

You point to coverage of parochial stuff being of interest as if all bbc NI covers is of a global nature..

Marching season?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Take a look back at what you are making a song and a dance about.

I was complementary of RTÉ news and said I leant stuff. I also pointed out that it was quite different. Big deal.

But let me explain what you tunnel vision seems to be missing and how it looked different to me.

A few examples to ground it for you

1) Programme started with a one minute acknowledgement of how important the Roman Catholic Church is in ROI. This would be absurd anywhere in the UK. And apart from RCs no one would have a clue what it even was. I had an experience doing cross community work where I encountered the angelas, but none of my friends or family would have a clue.
2) I found the focus on parochial sports really interesting (not a problem, just interesting). Tv sport in the uk is dominated by football, motor racing, etc. World sports. The uk tv does have a little bit of more colonial parochial stuff but it’s rugby, cricket hockey. NI regional tv certainly covers your sports but not in the way RTÉ done it.
3) just the way the cork burning was presented. It was assumed all viewers knew of it and knew who each side was. If that was presented on uk tv whether national or regional it would be presented in a very different way. I guess no one on the mainland knows it happened and at least 50% of NI doesn’t know it happened.
4). A general lack of diversity on RTÉ. All uk regions have diversity panels meeting to view and advise on content on news programmes. These panels include people who are black, Eastern European’s, people with disabilities, range of sexual orientation, etc. Their task is to ensure minorities are well represented on news programmes. I found the lack of diversity on RTÉ quite stark. White, catholic, Irish. I didn’t see any minorities represented I don’t think you will watch to many regional evenings news programmes in uk and not se diversity. Try watching utv news next time and note diversity of content. So RTÉ looked like it was representing a monolithic country

So I wasn’t meaning to be harsh. It just felt like and different world to me. You used the term alien - that’s extreme

Cool, let's examine that a little deeper.

How about we meet the hugely diverse BBC Newsline team...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsline/meet_the_team/index.shtml

Maybe not.

Regarding sports, isn't it wonderful that we have such strong sports native to our island and they're so widely supported to warrant a good focus in the news? Do you just turn the channel over when this is reported on BBC? They've a whole section on the BBC website about GAA, BBC NI broadcasts loads of games. You'll often spot a show called, 'The Championship' on BBC Two....flick it on some day.

Now you genuinely may not be aware of this, and I'll give you full benefit of the doubt on it, but we're approaching one of the high points in the annual GAA calendar at the moment, so perhaps you would notice it a bit more than usual. I do find it strange that you highlighted this and then went on to point out how regional news in the UK does the exact same with their local sports. Jesus, look at the coverage the 12th gets on BBC NI if you want to talk parochialism! [Edit: I note Lawred has highlighted this before me while I was typing this post out]

The Angelus I'll grant you is bloody weird, but I'd also note it is not part of the news. It is a separate programme broadcast before the news at six.

We're certainly getting a bit off topic here, so from my side, I'll leave it by repeating my original statement. We're all pretty similar and we could easily play this same game pointing out differences between local NI reporting, Scottish reporting and English reporting. At the end of the day, British and Irish news standards are so similar when compared with almost anywhere else outside the two places, the only way you could find them so surprisingly or shockingly different would be if you've never actually seen a news broadcast from literally anywhere else. This made your message come across to me like you were actively LOOKING for differences rather than just observing them in passing.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Cool, let's examine that a little deeper.

How about we meet the hugely diverse BBC Newsline team...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsline/meet_the_team/index.shtml

Maybe not.

Regarding sports, isn't it wonderful that we have such strong sports native to our island and they're so widely supported to warrant a good focus in the news? Do you just turn the channel over when this is reported on BBC? They've a whole section on the BBC website about GAA, BBC NI broadcasts loads of games. You'll often spot a show called, 'The Championship' on BBC Two....flick it on some day.

Now you genuinely may not be aware of this, and I'll give you full benefit of the doubt on it, but we're approaching one of the high points in the annual GAA calendar at the moment, so perhaps you would notice it a bit more than usual. I do find it strange that you highlighted this and then went on to point out how regional news in the UK does the exact same with their local sports. Jesus, look at the coverage the 12th gets on BBC NI if you want to talk parochialism! [Edit: I note Lawred has highlighted this before me while I was typing this post out]

The Angelus I'll grant you is bloody weird, but I'd also note it is not part of the news. It is a separate programme broadcast before the news at six.

We're certainly getting a bit off topic here, so from my side, I'll leave it by repeating my original statement. We're all pretty similar and we could easily play this same game pointing out differences between local NI reporting, Scottish reporting and English reporting. At the end of the day, British and Irish news standards are so similar when compared with almost anywhere else outside the two places, the only way you could find them so surprisingly or shockingly different would be if you've never actually seen a news broadcast from literally anywhere else. This made your message come across to me like you were actively LOOKING for differences rather than just observing them in passing.

I think most of what you are saying here confirms exactly what I am saying. Including the 12th coverage You are making my point as you identify more differences. But diversity is good. Don’t everyone get so defensive