Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

serfboard · 05-01-2021 11:09pm

marno21 wrote: »

It would also see the completion of the Rathkeale-Tralee section of rail line.

To expand that a bit further - by the time Listowel->Tralee is done, there will be a complete Greenway all the way to Fenit.

Prompting those getting on at Rathkeale to sing to themselves: "By the time I get to Fenit ..."

L1011 · 06-01-2021 9:13am

serfboard wrote: »

Might this be the answer?

Partially. In two senses - there's still a gap! It's passable obviously but not ideal for cycle commuting even though this does happen

Heartbreak Hank · 06-01-2021 10:49am

gingernut79 wrote: »

Royal Canal Greenway complete Maynooth to Longford, and some of the Dublin sections

What do they mean by "surfacing"? Is it quarry dust all the way or is there a sealed surface?

riddlinrussell · 06-01-2021 11:12am

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

What do they mean by "surfacing"? Is it quarry dust all the way or is there a sealed surface?

Have cycled Maynooth to Mullingar, a mix of surfaces between sealed, quarry dust and very quiet rural roads, but at least for that section zero places a standard road bike would struggle.

There are a small number of barriers along the route, no kissing gates that I remember thankfully, but a few that a cargo bike or specialised bike/handcycle might struggle with. A key criteria of a good greenway going forward will need to be good permeability for all non-motorised vehicles.

Zebra3 · 06-01-2021 11:15am

serfboard wrote: »

Might this be the answer?

Nope. Hence the question.

Seth Brundle · 08-01-2021 2:04pm

To my knowledge, Intel contributed towards the Louisa Bridge - Cope Bridge (Confey) section. I'm not sure if they contributed towards the Maynooth to Louisa Bridge section. Most of this is poor quality. There is some at the Maynooth end which is ok - did Tesco contribute here?

Grassey · 08-01-2021 4:54pm

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1174d-review-of-western-rail-corridor-phases-2-and-3-athenry-to-claremorris/

Open door for QMG now....

Caquas · 08-01-2021 6:51pm

The Midleton-Youghal Greenway may have yielded up the remains of a murder victim.

First reports were vague but now the Gardai have an almost complete female skeleton with personal items which should make identification much easier.

The discovery of further bones, yielding almost a complete skeleton, has now led gardaí to suspect they are dealing with the remains of a woman and a more recent death.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/skeletal-remains-found-in-cork-may-be-of-female-who-died-in-recent-years-39947344.html

marno21 · 13-01-2021 6:28pm

Judicial Review taken against the South Kerry Greenway by Peter Sweetman

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0113/1189533-kerry-greenway/

The slugs will have the Iveragh Peninsula to themselves the way things are going.

serfboard · 13-01-2021 8:33pm

marno21 wrote: »

Judicial Review taken against the South Kerry Greenway by Peter Sweetman

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0113/1189533-kerry-greenway/

The slugs will have the Iveragh Peninsula to themselves the way things are going.

RTE wrote:

The applications for permission to bring the challenges were transferred to the High Court's strategic infrastructure development and commercial planning list, which is managed by Mr Justice Richard Humphreys.

This is interesting - I didn't know it existed. Makes sense to have a part of the High Court which specialises in cases involving infrastructure development.

I'm sure Mr. Sweetman knows it very well!

Edit: I see that the first case was brought in 2018. The article also gives an explainer of what the list is:

The Strategic Infrastructure Development (SID) list is a new High Court list which was set up to 'fast-track' judicial reviews of permissions granted directly by An Bord Pleanála for a development consent for an SID.

Judicial review challenges to decisions of An Bord Pleanála frequently result in lengthy delays to the commencement of a development, and increased costs. The SID list was set up to provide a more expeditious route through the courts for SIDs which are, by their nature, of strategic national importance.

daniel_t1409 · 13-01-2021 8:42pm

Caquas wrote: »

The Midleton-Youghal Greenway may have yielded up the remains of a murder victim.

First reports were vague but now the Gardai have an almost complete female skeleton with personal items which should make identification much easier.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/skeletal-remains-found-in-cork-may-be-of-female-who-died-in-recent-years-39947344.html

Another line that should be reopened as a railway.

marno21 wrote: »

Judicial Review taken against the South Kerry Greenway by Peter Sweetman

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0113/1189533-kerry-greenway/

The slugs will have the Iveragh Peninsula to themselves the way things are going.

Are the CPO's cutting the land in 2, or are they following boundaries? Perhaps the latter would not cause as much of a fuss.

14-01-2021 12:11am

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

Another line that should be reopened as a railway.

i think the ship has sailed on that one

purplepanda · 14-01-2021 12:15am

marno21 wrote: »

Judicial Review taken against the South Kerry Greenway by Peter Sweetman

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0113/1189533-kerry-greenway/

The slugs will have the Iveragh Peninsula to themselves the way things are going.

Many countries in Europe would reopen the Kerry Iveragh Peninsula railway as a tourist attraction.

Instead we have Tourist Tour Buses & cars clogging up largely single lane regional roads, they also have to travel in the same direction to avoid not being able to pass each other on opposite sides of the road.

I suppose those regional roads soon will be rebuilt & upgraded as dual carriageway sooner or later when the tourist numbers recover to their usual levels.

Rebuilding the railway would reduce congested road traffic & avoid destroying one of Ireland's best scenic regions.

MJohnston · 14-01-2021 8:39am

The landowners I can almost understand taking legal action, but the “environmentalist” seems like a real disingenuous chap of the “I’m pro-cycling but...” variety.

hans aus dtschl · 14-01-2021 10:29am

Lads, could you please leave off the more nonsensical rail talk in the greenway threads? It is tiresome.

There is absolutely no possibility that a "tiny piece of the Ring of Kerry" railway would take cars or buses off the Ring of Kerry. It will not happen. It's not realistic. It is parallel universe thinking. It would attract cars, at best. If you want a novelty railway, focus on Tralee.

And we've done the rail line to Youghal to absolute death at this point.
It won't happen without an SDZ at Mogeely at a minimum, and line ownership is still with IÉ.
In Cork we currently need a station in Carrigtohill West, Dunkettle P&R, Kilbarry, Waterrock, which would all make Youghal more viable.

If you're pro-railway don't advocate for "white elephant" railway projects. It makes your arguments look disingenuous at best, and obstructive at worst. Loads of noise about fantasy projects and nothing about the viable rail projects. There's a rail forum for that.
If you don't like infrastructure for pedestrians and cyclists that's fine but stop protesting about the economic viability of legacy rural rail.

plodder · 14-01-2021 2:35pm

marno21 wrote: »

Judicial Review taken against the South Kerry Greenway by Peter Sweetman

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0113/1189533-kerry-greenway/

The slugs will have the Iveragh Peninsula to themselves the way things are going.

I'd love to know what his grand plan is. What kind of 'environmentalist' opposes greenways and wind-farms?

Tigerandahalf · 14-01-2021 3:18pm

plodder wrote: »

I'd love to know what his grand plan is. What kind of 'environmentalist' opposes greenways and wind-farms?

In fairness it is important to have his viewpoint there. If it was a deer or another more visible animal people would be quicker to object.

But as it is a snail people think it is not important. It is only in recent years we have seen how important earthworms are to soil drainage and fertility etc. So it is no harm to have it brought to attention.

I wouldn't imagine a greenway would do too much harm to their habitat but who knows. There certainly will be plenty of benefits to wildlife if it opens up, acting as a corridor for various species.

riddlinrussell · 14-01-2021 3:20pm

Mr Sweetman is highly focused on environmental legal protection as a rule, you will find him objecting to most major projects on an environmental basis. I have to admire his tenacity, and I certainly think the government should have their feet held to the fire to ensure they follow EU and their own regulations regarding the environment. It does wear on you when its a cause you are in favour of but I personally don't begrudge him.

I think the big problem is the 'local abandoned railway' is a far more emotive topic than actual railway improvement. Its better to be able to say "The line our grandfathers took to work should be reinstated", than "A section of the line our Grandfathers took to work that's still in use should be resignalled and the ballast upgraded".

There is an element of short termism or pure localism in it also, focusing on trying to reopen a line closed for a good financial reason instead of the slower process of fixing the bottlenecks that made it unviable in the first place or getting good numbers on the existing stub of their route (e.g. Cork to Youghal) in order to easier sell an actual restoration of service.

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

In fairness it is important to have his viewpoint there. If it was a deer or another more visible animal people would be quicker to object.

But as it is a snail people think it is not important. It is only in recent years we have seen how important earthworms are to soil drainage and fertility etc. So it is no harm to have it brought to attention.

I wouldn't imagine a greenway would do too much harm to their habitat but who kmows. There certainly will be plenty of benefits to wildlife if it opens up, acting as a corridor for various species.

I think the Council have a good standing for that particular case, they already explicitly dropped two sections from the application that couldn't be justified environmentally at present so I would expect they have taken great care on that front.

The second case is the more interesting as it is the one that will set a precedent either way as to whether local/national governments can use CPO for greenway routes.

plodder · 14-01-2021 5:37pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Mr Sweetman is highly focused on environmental legal protection as a rule, you will find him objecting to most major projects on an environmental basis.

While I don't know the details of this issue, you'd question what negative impact a greenway would have. But, what's his beef with offshore windfarms? What's his alternative plan for cutting CO2 emissions? Some compromises have to be made surely?

I have to admire his tenacity,

I don't. I think we are far too tolerant of serial litigants of this nature. We have a planning system that takes public input, and a separate appeals system which people can engage with at almost no cost or risk to themselves. If they go to court and lose they should have costs awarded against in my opinion, except in really exceptional cases.

and I certainly think the government should have their feet held to the fire to ensure they follow EU and their own regulations regarding the environment. It does wear on you when its a cause you are in favour of but I personally don't begrudge him.

Not saying it applies in this case, but it's too easy for litigants to delay important projects with groundless appeals, that end up failing. Environmental concerns and the scope of what could possibly go into an EIS is so broad, it seems to be possible to delay any project basically.

I was wondering about another project (a trans atlantic fibre cable) recently that should have been completed. Looked into it, and lo and behold it was stopped by a fisherman from Clare Island, literally as workers were waiting to do the final stage of bringing the cable onshore. Link The same cable was going on to Denmark and Norway and I assume it is finished now. I wonder if those countries (Denmark particularly as an EU member) were subject to the same kind of dubious concern for dolphins and brent geese.

I think the big problem is the 'local abandoned railway' is a far more emotive topic than actual railway improvement. Its better to be able to say "The line our grandfathers took to work should be reinstated", than "A section of the line our Grandfathers took to work that's still in use should be resignalled and the ballast upgraded".

There is an element of short termism or pure localism in it also, focusing on trying to reopen a line closed for a good financial reason instead of the slower process of fixing the bottlenecks that made it unviable in the first place or getting good numbers on the existing stub of their route (e.g. Cork to Youghal) in order to easier sell an actual restoration of service.

I think the Council have a good standing for that particular case, they already explicitly dropped two sections from the application that couldn't be justified environmentally at present so I would expect they have taken great care on that front.

The second case is the more interesting as it is the one that will set a precedent either way as to whether local/national governments can use CPO for greenway routes.

I wouldn't have an issue with that second case at all. The landowners are directly affected and it is a significant legal issue (as opposed to questionable environmental concern).

14-01-2021 7:04pm

While I'm disappointed to see the cases being taken, to try to paint this as an issue with Mr. Sweetman is unfair.

For the last decade he has held the govt to account for each and every breach of environmental regulations. The regulations are there, the govt has signed up to follow them, he is making sure they do.

He only lodges cases when there is a breach of some kind or inadequate assessments carried out. His list of successes against multiple parties would indicate the issue is not with him but rather with those who do not wish to follow the rules that are there to protect the environment.

Markcheese · 14-01-2021 8:11pm

Isn't it know as " banana s "
Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone
( Extreme form of nimbys )
Nothing is perfect , everything has some environmental impact , but to some people good is the enemy of perfect ,as in nothing is good enough ..
Maybe if there is a specific threat to the local environment there'd be some merit in his court case but its reusing or repurposing an existing old line , if the local flora and fauna were threatened by the line (drainage or topography) you'd think it would have shown up by now ...

whisky_galore · 15-01-2021 8:53am

Markcheese wrote: »

Isn't it know as " banana s "
Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone
( Extreme form of nimbys )
Nothing is perfect , everything has some environmental impact , but to some people good is the enemy of perfect ,as in nothing is good enough ..
Maybe if there is a specific threat to the local environment there'd be some merit in his court case but its reusing or repurposing an existing old line , if the local flora and fauna were threatened by the line (drainage or topography) you'd think it would have shown up by now ...

It's not an "existing" rail line, it's not like it was abandoned yesterday. Animals and plants have moved in and colonised it for decades.

whyulittle · 18-01-2021 7:22pm

https://twitter.com/AislingDSenator/status/1351142336055701506

Pete_Cavan · 19-01-2021 11:32am

whyulittle wrote: »

https://twitter.com/AislingDSenator/status/1351142336055701506

I know we will have to wait to see what is in the published info but those corridors dont tell much. Given it only requires a few metres wide path, and the intention here is to use existing where possible, there is probably only one possible route within each of the corridors shown. It isn't like building a road where you can manipulate the landscape to suit, the Greenway is going to have to work within the landscape so wide corridors do not reflect what is actually possible.

They should be looking to stitch together existing bog railways, forest roads, laneways, riverbanks, etc. to create the Greenway. I had hoped they would show what of these are available and indicate how they could be tied together plus what additional works would be required. Hopefully there is a lot more detail in the consultation documents.

riddlinrussell · 19-01-2021 11:49am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I know we will have to wait to see what is in the published info but those corridors dont tell much. Given it only requires a few metres wide path, and the intention here is to use existing where possible, there is probably only one possible route within each of the corridors shown. It isn't like building a road where you can manipulate the landscape to suit, the Greenway is going to have to work within the landscape so wide corridors do not reflect what is actually possible.

They should be looking to stitch together existing bog railways, forest roads, laneways, riverbanks, etc. to create the Greenway. I had hoped they would show what of these are available and indicate how they could be tied together plus what additional works would be required. Hopefully there is a lot more detail in the consultation documents.

I can see them using the Blue route for the 'main' Galway to Athlone greenway, that's down to the start of the Ballinasloe Canal and then straight up into Ballinasloe and is by far the most 'Direct' route under consideration, seems like if they go for it they want to continue as far as Athenry with it so not really sure what the green options north of the motorway are about...

The Red and the Yellow are way too round the world to really be a Galway to Athlone route, although Yellow is viable and essentially proposed on its own already as part of the Shannon Blueway (As an aside Yellow along the Shannon is one of the best pieces of linking infra for greenways in the west as it would connect the Royal/Grand/Shannon and this Galway to Athlone Greenway together all within a fairly short distance.)

Just a thought, the wider 'corridors' for it might be to give them a bit of leeway for getting around holdout landowners, study the full corridor area instead of just the specific canal/railbed/laneway/country road you have in mind so you know your avoidance options.

Pete_Cavan · 19-01-2021 2:07pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I can see them using the Blue route for the 'main' Galway to Athlone greenway, that's down to the start of the Ballinasloe Canal and then straight up into Ballinasloe and is by far the most 'Direct' route under consideration, seems like if they go for it they want to continue as far as Athenry with it so not really sure what the green options north of the motorway are about...

The Red and the Yellow are way too round the world to really be a Galway to Athlone route, although Yellow is viable and essentially proposed on its own already as part of the Shannon Blueway (As an aside Yellow along the Shannon is one of the best pieces of linking infra for greenways in the west as it would connect the Royal/Grand/Shannon and this Galway to Athlone Greenway together all within a fairly short distance.)

Just a thought, the wider 'corridors' for it might be to give them a bit of leeway for getting around holdout landowners, study the full corridor area instead of just the specific canal/railbed/laneway/country road you have in mind so you know your avoidance options.

Any parts of it through farmland will have to follow existing field boundaries and probably boundaries between landowners so as not to divide holdings. I doubt there is any leeway at all in the corridors. Where the corridor goes through state owned bog or forestry, there may in theory be leeway within the corridor but in reality it is probably limited to existing paths or trackbed through them. If the corridors are not more refined than that, I can see another backlash coming from IFA, various politicians, etc. Bear in mind that there has already been a Constraints Study and a consultation so it should be a bit more refined than this.

The Yellow route could have merit if it formed a Y shaped route linking Dublin, Galway and Limerick. Being close to or along the Shannon would make it more attractive. Ideally it would be done as well as a more direct Ballinasloe - Athenry - Galway route. The Yellow corridor doesn't seem to include the northern part of the former rail line between Loughrea and Attymon which seems to largely still exist which seems like a bit of a missed opportunity.

riddlinrussell · 19-01-2021 2:47pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Any parts of it through farmland will have to follow existing field boundaries and probably boundaries between landowners so as not to divide holdings. I doubt there is any leeway at all in the corridors. Where the corridor goes through state owned bog or forestry, there may in theory be leeway within the corridor but in reality it is probably limited to existing paths or trackbed through them. If the corridors are not more refined than that, I can see another backlash coming from IFA, various politicians, etc. Bear in mind that there has already been a Constraints Study and a consultation so it should be a bit more refined than this.

The Yellow route could have merit if it formed a Y shaped route linking Dublin, Galway and Limerick. Being close to or along the Shannon would make it more attractive. Ideally it would be done as well as a more direct Ballinasloe - Athenry - Galway route. The Yellow corridor doesn't seem to include the northern part of the former rail line between Loughrea and Attymon which seems to largely still exist which seems like a bit of a missed opportunity.

I'd be of the view "Thanks, I'll have them all please' from a greenway perspective, these routes combined would form a great network across south Galway with good future scope to link to Connemara, Mayo greenways, down to Limerick and to the potential Clare greenways, the Gort to Oranmore route could be a key link in a "Wild Atlantic Greenway" for example.

19-01-2021 4:27pm

In terms of land in public ownership, there is already a map of this

And the proposed routes

Overlaying the two gives you this

Notwithstanding that I'd love to see all of these options as greenways, looking at this in the context of the Galway to Dublin route only and assuming only 1 option gets built, my thoughts on the various routes are below.

Blue Route
My money is on the blue route, either all of it, or from Athlone to Shannonbridge, where it then takes the yellow route, however the yellow route would need to shift eastwards en route to Portumna to make best use of state owned lands between Banagher and Portumna. This route will, as mentioned, allow for linking up to the Shannon blueway.

Green Route
Interesting to note in the green route that a significant section between Monivea and Athenry looks to match the alignment of the defunct rail line. In this sense, the green route could also be viewed as a potential catalyst for converting that line into a greenway. However, as a touring route, its path northwards makes little sense as there would appear to be no further obvious options for connectivity.

Yellow Route
Topographically speaking, the yellow route would have the greatest amount of hills which may prove slightly more challenging for some. While this may offer opportunities for view points at some locations its difficult to see where they might be given that most of the elevated points are located within managed forests. On the flip side, the amount of this route that goes through forests would ensure a very quiet and serene journey.

Brown Route
Taking the alignment of the existing rail corridor is interesting to me. Personally I would have little issue with this route as the main objective is a safe route away from cars etc. Similar to the green route but in the opposite sense, this route may prove to be a catalyst to full double tracking of this line from the perspective that it may make sense to go ahead and CPO land for a second line and greenway at the same time. The biggest issue I see with this route is the potential for it to become very VERY expensive and therefore take a very long time to implement.

Red Route
Branching off from the yellow route, the journey up along the coast from Kinvara would be a nice one and sit well as part of a WAW greenway. That being said though, I would prefer to not see this done as part of the Dublin to Galway route for the simple reason that I think the WAW greenway should be a full project in itself to maximise the benefits of such a project. Again, however, this route could be what a WAW greenway needs to get it going faster.

Regardless of whichever route is chosen I'm delighted to see this moving along, it just sucks that construction of the chosen route won't even start until 2024, sigh

Pete_Cavan · 19-01-2021 5:29pm

I saw the public ownership map as part of the first consultation but very impressive seeing the new corridors overlaid on it. With that, I would have thought it would be easy enough to define the corridors further and have them almost entirely on public lands to avoid howls about splitting farms etc. There is a good map here indicating Coillte and some BNM properties; https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7b05ec6a44a14bd8b523ea1fcb78b4e9

The Blue route between Athlone and Ballinasloe seems a no-brainer, both in terms of utilising public lands and general amenity of the route. From there, I'd say it will likely have to follow the rail line but deviating to pass through some state owned forests and bogs for some variety. Certainly Coiltes Woodlawn Woods and Derrydonnell forest and BNM Attymon bog would each allow serveral km away from the rail line and also be enjoyable to pass through.

The Yellow route as far as Portumna at least should also be pursued as a separate project. It should be relatively straightforward given plenty of publicly owned lands along there and it could also link to the wider greenway network. The only hope for the Red route is if the N67 became part of the National Secondaries tourist route upgrades but that isn't happening any time soon.

serfboard · 20-01-2021 1:11am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The only hope for the Red route is if the N67 became part of the National Secondaries tourist route upgrades but that isn't happening any time soon.

The N67 north of Kinvara is actually currently being upgraded - I was held up at traffic lights for the work there before Christmas.

Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

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