False rape accusation...who would you believe?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What is the connection between consent classes in colleges and false allegations?

My post:

She Accused Him Of Sexual Assault. He Sued, And His Years-Long Court Battle Just Ended With A Settlement.
By Ashe Schow
Dec 28, 2020 DailyWire.com

https://www.dailywire....ed-with-a-settlement

Another case which involved the kangaroo courts in US colleges where male defendants may not be able to avail of due process.

Seems better to generally leave such cases to the criminal system.

Given the move to consent classes and similar in Irish colleges, it doesn't seem impossible that we may arrive with similar scenarios here at some stage in the future.

The similar scenarios I was referring to was colleges getting involved in the disciplining of students with cases investigated outside the State judicial system and where due process may not be available for the defendant.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So it's nothing to do with consent classes then?

Colleges don't run classes to do with preventing other crimes.

Recently, after the Aoibhinn Ní Shúilleabháin case there were articles such as this one "Urgent action needed to ensure staff and students safe on college campuses, says NWC"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/urgent-action-needed-to-ensure-staff-and-students-safe-on-college-campuses-says-nwc-1.4347724

Ms O’Connor said there was a need for “urgent action by all third level institutes to ensure both staff and students can be safe on campus”.

“Where an incident occurs, we crucially need to have in place clear policies and procedures that follow best practice in this area and ensure the victim is supported and protected at all times,” she said.

“While progress has been made in many universities and colleges in this regard in relation to students, we now need a comprehensive approach that encompasses all staff and is recognised and reinforced through the governance structures of the institutions.”

The head of UCD also said something on the topic. I can't remember the details at this stage, but it was something along the lines of, we need to do more to make colleges safe for staff and students also.

In such an environment, as I said, it doesn't seem impossible colleges will start implementing measures to "protect" students, which could involve disciplining other students or even removing them from campuses as has happened in the US.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I get where you’re coming from, I really do, but I can’t agree with you that a false accusation of rape should be regarded in the same light as rape. They really can’t be compared, not their impact on the victims, nor their impact on society, which is the thing I think you’re missing, is that in criminal cases, defendants are on trial for committing a crime against society. Often in cases where someone has lied about being raped, or has made a false allegation of being raped by a named individual or individuals, the impact on society just isn’t comparable, and often it’s just not in the public interest to pursue a case. This happens in cases where people have been raped too.

I also don’t agree with your perception of largely shared victim traits between two very different circumstances, because as you rightly pointed out beforehand - each person’s experiences will be different and they will perceive their experiences very differently from one person to the next. It’s not just because I’ve been in both positions that I can say what you’re suggesting happens in but a very small minority of circumstances, but it would be disproportionate IMO to impose a sentence of 7 years for example (the average sentence for rape in Ireland) on a person who is convicted of making a false allegation. The consequences really aren’t the same.

Rape is a far more heinous violation of a person’s dignity than the idea of any damage to a person’s reputation as a result of a false allegation, and in terms of seeing justice done, it’s far easier for a person to seek their reputation be restored in their community than it is for the victims of rape to ever see justice done.

You don’t appear to be at all conscious of the difficulty of what is involved for a victim of rape to even come forward when everything in them is telling them that they’re starting from the default position that people will not believe them, because of this idea that immediately they are viewed with suspicion when they make an allegation against someone who people would never imagine would be capable of committing rape.

For the person who is falsely accused, the consequences aren’t even remotely comparable on any level, and the idea of trying to equate the two ideas of rape and false accusations of rape as though the consequences are similar is just misguided at best, misleading at worst. I’m not suggesting you’re doing so out of any malice or anything, but there are people who do, and I wouldn’t even entertain that kind of idiot, frankly. Like suggesting that people who make false accusations of rape should be prosecuted and if found guilty should be sentenced to an average of seven years, it just isn’t worth it in many cases to pursue a case in order to secure a conviction, it’s also not worth it in most cases to engage with a person is already fully convinced in their beliefs about false allegations.

Your points in this thread are well made and I thank you for sharing some context in your 2016 post. It certainly adds value to your point of view and i'm sorry you have experienced both sides. I'll try to address your points in order so as to share my views. I will set out now that my personal belief is that a false allegation of rape is worse than rape. You agreed to this on a personal level in your linked post, but you expand here to include the societal impact.

So, rape is a crime against the community. I understand this because it creates a sense of fear and loss in the community. It alters peoples behaviours and how they think of their community when a rape occurs within, or to someone within the community. I would argue that a proven false rape allegation does more damage to a community. Firstly, the community and those closest to person making the allegation will experience the same turmoil as if the rape had occurred. Secondly, the person or persons accused will experience all those feelings of dread and uncertainty as their good name is dragged through the mud and they fear prison, financial ruin and many losses. Finally, if the allegation is proven false with clear evidence that there was no sex, or there was consent to sex, the damage is still being done, because only some people are big enough to adjust their pre-conceived beliefs. There is anger from the accused and others that nothing will be done in most cases to the accuser because the authorities fear it will discourage real victims from coming forward. This is a denial of justice.

Further damage is done because men in many cases are refusing to allow themselves into a situation where there is a remote possibility that an allegation be made against them. I'm not talking about a couple of college kids after having a few drinks and having sex, i'm talking about work place scenarios where women are being excluded for fear of an allegation being made.

My argument relating to perjury was poorly constructed. It would not be right or just to simply slap on the same sentence the accused would have got. I put this forward because both perjury and rape carry maximum sentences of 7 years. However, the real issue is the lack of interest from the authorities in pursuing such cases, even when there is strong evidence against the person who made the rape allegation.

This is probably the wrong thread to assume a lack of personal experience. I am fully conscious of the difficulty for a rape victim to come forward. I have experience on both sides, but I will not be going into any detail here. What I will say, is that a false accusation can do many times more damage than being the victim of rape. Not just to the accused, but to the community at large. It is much easier to control the aftermath of being raped, but when there is a malicious and false allegation made, the control of information is out of the hands of the accused as you have said yourself in the 2016 post. Solid proof of the lie is not enough to convince some who would have made up their mind after hearing the accusation.

Pound for pound, I strongly believe it is worse to be falsely accused than to be the true victim of rape. But I will add that there are different degrees to both sides. The extremities of each side could be a rape victim being orally assaulted for a few seconds by someone they went to bed with after a night out on the town. Or it could be a violent, full penetration event that went on for a long period of time. Likewise, the accused could be a nobody with no job, friends, family or responsibilities. Or they could be a well known and respected member of their community with a well paid job, their own house, a family to look after and many friends. The degrees of harm caused are undoubtedly going to be very different, so it is unfair for anyone (myself included) to state that one crime is worse than the other unless proper comparisons can be made.

I am aware of other peoples personal stories from both sides and have huge empathy in either case. Unfortunately, false accusations are not as rare as some would like to believe. At least not in my experience. I personally know of four women who made such claims and only one of those made a complaint to the authorities. The other ones still did a lot of damage even though there was no official complaint. I hope this sheds more light on where I am coming from.

bubblypop wrote: »

Then you won't mind linking to these cases then?

Are you saying you are not aware of such examples? I could fish out a few if you need me to, but I expected such examples are commonly accepted and that not every assertion requires links to cases.

And we are talking about Ireland, as this is Ireland and our laws are what we are talking about here.
There have been cases where women have been prosecuted for making false claims, I'm not sure where you came up with the idea that there is 'no appetite ' for that?

As we are talking about Ireland and you say there are cases where women have been prosecuted for making false (rape) claims, perhaps you can link these cases. I am genuinely not aware of such prosecutions in Ireland. It could be that they are kept very low key if there are examples.

My understanding from research I have carried out is that such cases are rarely taken and when they are taken, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence required and the person who made the allegation has a history of it, or was too brazen and inconsistent in their lies. None of these cases were in the Republic of Ireland.

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, personally through work I know if 3 women who were charged with making false statements regarding rape or sexual assault, but just from googling ( I am on the phone!) The first page throws up, Regina De Oliveira, Sarah Browne, Kerry Holt, also few northern ones coming up.
It's really not unusual.

Thanks for those results. What happened of the 3 from work you know of and what were the circumstances (if that is ok to ask)?

Regina De Oliveira = suspended sentence. I see nothing about the person she falsely accused.

Sarah Browne = 1 month jail. Admitted she gave consent in follow up statement.

Judge said "This man lost his liberty as a result of his arrest, detention and questioning. This man considers he is labelled in his community as a result of her false statement"

Kerry Holt = suspended sentence. She falsely accused a man of raping her. Her boyfriend went to the Gardai to express his belief of her lies. She later admitted to lying about it. The victim was smeared in the community.

From skim reading these articles and with very little information on the impact caused to the victims of the allegations, it does seem very much like these three women largely got away with it. Even if no harm had come to the men, or the men were fictional, the sentences should have been greater than what was received.

What do you think?

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, they didn't get away with it, they were charged and convicted before the courts. The penalties are decided by the judge, we have all seen mad sentences for different crimes, depending on circumstances and the judge.
It's a conviction that they will have to live with.

I'll be honest, I don't remember exactly what happened with the 3 females at work,(it's been a while) but they were convicted also.
It can be a hard charge to prove sometimes, but I can assure you that Gardai and the DPPs office do take these crimes very seriously.

I concede that false accusations have attracted a few convictions. I don't think I said there were no such cases, only that I was not aware of any. The sentences are so small as to suggest that no harm was done. I would choose a month in jail over a potential lifetime of being smeared. I think if any of the 3 you mentioned from work had received anything more than the 3 other examples you gave, you might remember them more clearly, which leads me to believe the sentences were 0-short. I am not assured that the Gardaí and DPP take false allegations seriously. I have witnessed and experienced the exact opposite from the Gardaí and with a DPP who charged an elderly man despite CCTV evidence proving his accuser was lying....well, i'll leave it there.

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, personally through work I know if 3 women who were charged with making false statements regarding rape or sexual assault, but just from googling ( I am on the phone!) The first page throws up, Regina De Oliveira, Sarah Browne, Kerry Holt, also few northern ones coming up.
It's really not unusual.

I know of one who made a false allegation and it only came to light because of CCTV on a neighboring property. Nothing happened to her. In fact you would not believe what she works at now. And im not going to say because you would just think i was making it up.

...Ghost... wrote: »

3 guesses:

Garda
RTE Presenter
Mens Rights Activist

You can't leave us wondering, whether we believe you or not. Spill it.

You have it among those guesses.

JimmyVik wrote: »

You have it among those guesses.

Oh my. That was my only serious guess and I had hoped it was wrong. God help any man she puts into cuffs. And of course, because no convictions were recorded against her, there was no problem getting into the force.

bubblypop wrote: »

I know a female in one of those professions who made a false allegation of sexual assault against a taxi driver

Anything come of it....either side? Bad weather ahead.

bubblypop wrote: »

What does your first paragraph refer to?

I had seriously guessed that the person the other poster was referring to became a Gard. To the best of my knowledge, if you have a conviction, you cannot become a Gard, or if so, it's very unlikely depending on the conviction.

I cringe at the thought of someone becoming a Gard when they have made a false allegation of rape against someone. Is that the type of person we want serving the community?

The female in my story, lost her job and was charged.

What job was she in and do you know if the charge resulted in a conviction, a custodial sentence, or the usual "please don't be telling lies, now go on your way" story.


Sure, we know Gards aren't immune to lying about such things. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-made-false-claims-after-row-with-taxi-driver-26478971.html

bubblypop wrote: »

I am fair and honest and I don't care for 'what is between people's legs' pretty disgusting way of talking about people tbh.


I don't support any kind of sentences, that's for a judge to decide and the DPP to appeal if the sentence is too lenient.

I get the impression that you work in womens services in some fashion and so I find it hard to believe that you are not biased and by extension, in this context, not fair. This is reinforced when you imply that a conviction with no time served for false rape allegations is just. If you take issue to veiled references of genitals, sorry, but that's not my problem and it's far from disgusting.

You say you don't support any kind of sentences. It might be bold of me to say, but that's exactly what I expected your answer to be if you were to have provided one. It shows a level of comfort with the current bias against women serving custodial sentences, or indeed receiving any punishment for wrecking lives with malicious lies. Defaulting to the position of "that's for a judge to decide and the DPP to appeal". I can't find the supporting article now, but judges are being told to avoid handing out custodial sentences to women found guilty of reporting and pursuing malicious false rape allegations. Don't get me started on the DPP. What a joke.

bubblypop wrote: »

I most certainly do not work in any kind of womens services and you are showing your bias in your posting.

speaking about people just by 'what is between their legs' and not actual people is disgusting and shows what little regard you have for any persons.

FYI, I have no sympathy and I would bet even less than you, when it comes to people making any kind of false allegations.

you have no respect for law or the judiciary, which is where you and I wildly differ.

Getting rather defensive there. Have I hit a nerve somewhere?

You said that you knew of 3 women through work who made false allegations, so it's not exactly a far stretch to suggest that you work in womens services, is it?

Would you rather I was more specific and said that a person with a vagina is very unlikely to be punished for ruining the life of a person with a penis? My point was gender/sex based, so why do you have such a problem with me pointing that out that the genitals between ones legs clearly makes a difference when it comes to justice and custodial sentences?

I didn't suggest you had sympathy. I suggested you were bias, based on my unconfirmed belief that you work/worked in womens services in some fashion. It wasn't a statement of fact. Can you see that now without being so offended? Or was it that I pointed out that you defaulted to the judges and DPP when asked a serious question?

How about challenging my arguments rather than taking the lazy road of attacking my character. I have great respect for law, but little trust in the judiciary and for reasons well highlighted in this thread.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you live in the same world as the rest of us?

Do you? Stranger things have happened.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-court-farting-during-police-20131779

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53072756

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/man-jailed-after-farting-cops-4332794

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/banter/german-police-tried-to-fine-a-man-900-for-farting-at-them-twice-36236613.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3FllMeIyGA

I was watching a video on TikTok (yea I know :rolleyes: ), and assuming its real, it was a guy catching has girl out cheating on him. She thought she was getting a surprise or present or something but all along there was images of her cheating and images of her texts with the guy on the wall behind her without her knowing.

Apparently, the guy who was with the girl found out she already had a bf and contacted him so they decided to catch her out on video. He was hiding behind her too.

Anyway, he confronted her before showing her the evidence that awaits and of course she denied all etc. Then he turned her around to see pics and texts hung on wall and aside from her mortification and embarrassment she played the victim card and one of the first things she said without hesitation, "he forced himself on me". The guy was literally standing there.

This clearly wasn't true but it just goes to show you how quickly some women can make a very serious and very dangerous accusation about a man in order to get out of a situation.

EDIT: I meant to say some women (as per mod warning below)

jimwallace197 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/news/the-dpp-ruined-my-life-entertainer-sil-fox-sues-prosecutor-after-sex-assault-acquittal-40106553.html

Absolutely ridicilous its not possible to sue the DPP or the Gards for defamation as the DPP is entitled to absolute privilege in the course of a prosecution and a complaint of malicious prosecution would be unsustainable unless there is evidence of malice which I'm sure they can cover up easily.

How many more times will this happen unless the system is changed. The DPP and the gards need to be held accountable when they attempt to ruin a mans life like this.

I hope he wins his case anyhow and at least this case is putting the office of the DPP under scrutiny.

If I was him I'd take it up with the law society for professional poor conduct as well.

He won't win they will wait it out then settle as quietly as possible. When you are suing it's for compensation not to right a wrong, he's 86 they will drag in out for a few years of he lives long enough to come to court they will settle it on the steps for a no fault large cash payment.

...Ghost... wrote: »

Do you? Stranger things have happened.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-court-farting-during-police-20131779

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53072756

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/man-jailed-after-farting-cops-4332794

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/banter/german-police-tried-to-fine-a-man-900-for-farting-at-them-twice-36236613.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3FllMeIyGA

The only gender dynamic in any of those articles is a woman farting at a man, so pretty much the reverse of the scenario you suggested.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The only gender dynamic in any of those articles is a woman farting at a man, so pretty much the reverse of the scenario you suggested.

I'm pretty sure anyone else reading the thread understood the point made. Don't get stressed about it.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Which was a gross exaggeration, with little connection to reality.

OK, I can tell you're angry and confused, so i'll give you a break and explain. The "gross exaggeration" as you called my reference to a man being arrested for farting in the direction of a woman may have been a very obvious (though clearly not obvious enough for some) tongue in cheek comment. However, when (ridiculously) challenged on it, I managed to easily find examples where farting resulted in charges/fines for men. Gross....yes. Exaggerated....no.

Happened to hear a bit of the Sky News paper discussion today with regard to the Sarah Everard.
Some commentator was using it to complain that not enough cases are prosecuted and the prosecution rate is not high enough for sexual assault all cases.

bb1234567 wrote: »

God , what a minefield. Took me a long time to accept that I was gay..but I have to say it definitely has perks in this department..consent, just never really been something I've had to worry about. Is this a big issue for straight guys(as opposed to being something exaggerated on internet social circles), like do ye consciously think about the dangers/potential issues of it when you're out on a night out and maybe bringing a girl home? That would be an awful thing to have on your mind and a real mood killer.

Yes it is a thing that guys now worry about.

Quite alot aswell

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, personally through work I know if 3 women who were charged with making false statements regarding rape or sexual assault, but just from googling ( I am on the phone!) The first page throws up, Regina De Oliveira, Sarah Browne, Kerry Holt, also few northern ones coming up.
It's really not unusual.

It seems that what isn't very unusual is false allegations. The punishment for deliberately accusing someone of such a terrible offence should be commensurate and while the difficulties inherent in such a revision to the norm are obvious that dosen't mean that natural justice should not be served.