False rape accusation...who would you believe?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Enough. Not going to chase down this rabbit hole with you.

You accused me of having debates with you about feminism and feminist waves when I clearly said I had not.

I had NO DEBATES with you about those topics. I repeat, I dont know anything about feminism or feminist waves or egliterism.

When challenged on your scurrilous allegations, you try to fob them off as a rabbit hole to get out of it.

It's ok for you to make these allegations that I am lying, but not ok when I ask you to stand over it. Poor, poor form.

Caquas wrote: »

No, you’re the only one doubting me.

I doubt you too because it was explained to you already that it’s the State is pursuing a case against the accused, not the victim. I don’t need to google statistics to know that’s true in 100% of criminal cases.

bubblypop wrote: »

Injured parties do not have legal representation.
There is a suggestion that they should, particularly in the case of rape, as the injured party can themselves be cross examined in the witness box.

This might be true (legally speaking) in criminal cases, but not in civil cases, where "victims" get a second roll of the dice, whether or not a criminal case proceeds and regardless of the outcome of the cases heard by the criminal courts.

What we need is for false accusers (where proven) to be given the same sentence the accused would have got had there been a conviction. It's been pointed out here by a poster and has been thanked by some when it was said that the repercussions are "exactly the same". I agree, the damage can be very similar, but it should be noted that men will find getting information and support to be much harder and legally very expensive.

Where I see a difference is that when a conviction is given, the woman must take it upon herself to get back on track after suffering a horrific ordeal. She will find that support is very much available in abundance to help her achieve this. This is only right.

However, when a man clears his name and the evidence shows the "victim" was lying and had made a false allegation, the man still has to pay the legal bills. Free counselling pamphlets will not be bulging from his coat pocket. His job is long gone. His house is probably gone and under the stress of everything, his relationship, his family may well be broken. Many of his friends will have disappeared and this assumes he hasn't put a knot around his neck. Meanwhile, the "victim" who made the allegation walks away un-named, unscathed, and benefits from extra sympathy from those close to her who believe her story despite the evidence to the contrary.

This is the society we live in. Justice may be blind, but we should at least sharpen the other side of the blade, or it will never cut both ways.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They’re two completely different offences, it’s not going to happen that sentencing for rape is equated with perverting the course of justice. There’s no “blade” involved that needs to cut both ways between a victim and an offender, or someone who is found not guilty, because in a criminal case, it’s the State is pursuing a prosecution against the defendant, and the victim appears as a witness for the State.

There is no case without a statement from the false accuser.

It is a **personal** accusation from one person against another, that's why the repercussions for a false accusation should be equivalent.

99nsr125 wrote: »

There is no case without a statement from the false accuser.

It is a **personal** accusation from one person against another, that's why the repercussions for a false accusation should be equivalent.

It’s not though? It’s the State is making the case that the defendant is guilty. If during the investigation a person is found to be lying, they can be prosecuted. If they’re found to have perverted the course of justice during a trial, they can be prosecuted.

It’s never just one person’s word against another, and the repercussions are not the same, nowhere even near the same, and the offences are nowhere near the same, so the punishment for perverting the course of justice in any case, won’t be the same as the punishment for a completely different offence.

...Ghost... wrote: »

The state brings the case, but there is no case without an allegation, right? If the accuser is found to be lying, they can prosecuted, but there is no appetite for that in Ireland to the best of my knowledge.

There are many ways of perverting the course of justice and although legally speaking, it's the same offense whether the perjury be in relation to a burglary, or a sexual assault, the impact on the victims life is different depending largely on the type of accusation being made. Surely it is only right that the damage done by the perjurer be the leading factor rather than the legal heading of the offense.

Were you to be falsely accused and the punishment was the same for either offense, would you rather the accusation be that you beat up a 12 year old girl, or that you sexually assaulted her? I'm confident you would do neither, but one of these offenses will cause permanent reputational and other far reaching consequences even when proven to be false.

I would argue that being accused of sexual assault is just as bad as being the victim of sexual assault. Everyone will have a different experience if they have suffered either either event, but largely shared victim traits will be trauma, relationship difficulties, depression, suicidal ideation for the person sexually assaulted. For the person falsely accused, these same traits are likely, some to a lesser degree, but there will also be the added complication of reputation damage resulting in unemployment, massive legal bills, death threats and so on. So I really don't think anyone is served justice if perjury is treated the same regardless of the type of allegation/lie.

I have personally seen the damage a false accusation of sexual assault can do. I know someone close to me who lost their livelihood and was smeared by a false allegation. Despite being cleared by evidence presented to prove the accuser was lying, the authorities took no interest in prosecuting the woman who made the allegation.

I get where you’re coming from, I really do, but I can’t agree with you that a false accusation of rape should be regarded in the same light as rape. They really can’t be compared, not their impact on the victims, nor their impact on society, which is the thing I think you’re missing, is that in criminal cases, defendants are on trial for committing a crime against society. Often in cases where someone has lied about being raped, or has made a false allegation of being raped by a named individual or individuals, the impact on society just isn’t comparable, and often it’s just not in the public interest to pursue a case. This happens in cases where people have been raped too.

I also don’t agree with your perception of largely shared victim traits between two very different circumstances, because as you rightly pointed out beforehand - each person’s experiences will be different and they will perceive their experiences very differently from one person to the next. It’s not just because I’ve been in both positions that I can say what you’re suggesting happens in but a very small minority of circumstances, but it would be disproportionate IMO to impose a sentence of 7 years for example (the average sentence for rape in Ireland) on a person who is convicted of making a false allegation. The consequences really aren’t the same.

Rape is a far more heinous violation of a person’s dignity than the idea of any damage to a person’s reputation as a result of a false allegation, and in terms of seeing justice done, it’s far easier for a person to seek their reputation be restored in their community than it is for the victims of rape to ever see justice done.

You don’t appear to be at all conscious of the difficulty of what is involved for a victim of rape to even come forward when everything in them is telling them that they’re starting from the default position that people will not believe them, because of this idea that immediately they are viewed with suspicion when they make an allegation against someone who people would never imagine would be capable of committing rape.

For the person who is falsely accused, the consequences aren’t even remotely comparable on any level, and the idea of trying to equate the two ideas of rape and false accusations of rape as though the consequences are similar is just misguided at best, misleading at worst. I’m not suggesting you’re doing so out of any malice or anything, but there are people who do, and I wouldn’t even entertain that kind of idiot, frankly. Like suggesting that people who make false accusations of rape should be prosecuted and if found guilty should be sentenced to an average of seven years, it just isn’t worth it in many cases to pursue a case in order to secure a conviction, it’s also not worth it in most cases to engage with a person is already fully convinced in their beliefs about false allegations.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What is the connection between consent classes in colleges and false allegations?

My post:

She Accused Him Of Sexual Assault. He Sued, And His Years-Long Court Battle Just Ended With A Settlement.
By Ashe Schow
Dec 28, 2020 DailyWire.com

https://www.dailywire....ed-with-a-settlement

Another case which involved the kangaroo courts in US colleges where male defendants may not be able to avail of due process.

Seems better to generally leave such cases to the criminal system.

Given the move to consent classes and similar in Irish colleges, it doesn't seem impossible that we may arrive with similar scenarios here at some stage in the future.

The similar scenarios I was referring to was colleges getting involved in the disciplining of students with cases investigated outside the State judicial system and where due process may not be available for the defendant.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So it's nothing to do with consent classes then?

Colleges don't run classes to do with preventing other crimes.

Recently, after the Aoibhinn Ní Shúilleabháin case there were articles such as this one "Urgent action needed to ensure staff and students safe on college campuses, says NWC"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/urgent-action-needed-to-ensure-staff-and-students-safe-on-college-campuses-says-nwc-1.4347724

Ms O’Connor said there was a need for “urgent action by all third level institutes to ensure both staff and students can be safe on campus”.

“Where an incident occurs, we crucially need to have in place clear policies and procedures that follow best practice in this area and ensure the victim is supported and protected at all times,” she said.

“While progress has been made in many universities and colleges in this regard in relation to students, we now need a comprehensive approach that encompasses all staff and is recognised and reinforced through the governance structures of the institutions.”

The head of UCD also said something on the topic. I can't remember the details at this stage, but it was something along the lines of, we need to do more to make colleges safe for staff and students also.

In such an environment, as I said, it doesn't seem impossible colleges will start implementing measures to "protect" students, which could involve disciplining other students or even removing them from campuses as has happened in the US.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I get where you’re coming from, I really do, but I can’t agree with you that a false accusation of rape should be regarded in the same light as rape. They really can’t be compared, not their impact on the victims, nor their impact on society, which is the thing I think you’re missing, is that in criminal cases, defendants are on trial for committing a crime against society. Often in cases where someone has lied about being raped, or has made a false allegation of being raped by a named individual or individuals, the impact on society just isn’t comparable, and often it’s just not in the public interest to pursue a case. This happens in cases where people have been raped too.

I also don’t agree with your perception of largely shared victim traits between two very different circumstances, because as you rightly pointed out beforehand - each person’s experiences will be different and they will perceive their experiences very differently from one person to the next. It’s not just because I’ve been in both positions that I can say what you’re suggesting happens in but a very small minority of circumstances, but it would be disproportionate IMO to impose a sentence of 7 years for example (the average sentence for rape in Ireland) on a person who is convicted of making a false allegation. The consequences really aren’t the same.

Rape is a far more heinous violation of a person’s dignity than the idea of any damage to a person’s reputation as a result of a false allegation, and in terms of seeing justice done, it’s far easier for a person to seek their reputation be restored in their community than it is for the victims of rape to ever see justice done.

You don’t appear to be at all conscious of the difficulty of what is involved for a victim of rape to even come forward when everything in them is telling them that they’re starting from the default position that people will not believe them, because of this idea that immediately they are viewed with suspicion when they make an allegation against someone who people would never imagine would be capable of committing rape.

For the person who is falsely accused, the consequences aren’t even remotely comparable on any level, and the idea of trying to equate the two ideas of rape and false accusations of rape as though the consequences are similar is just misguided at best, misleading at worst. I’m not suggesting you’re doing so out of any malice or anything, but there are people who do, and I wouldn’t even entertain that kind of idiot, frankly. Like suggesting that people who make false accusations of rape should be prosecuted and if found guilty should be sentenced to an average of seven years, it just isn’t worth it in many cases to pursue a case in order to secure a conviction, it’s also not worth it in most cases to engage with a person is already fully convinced in their beliefs about false allegations.

Your points in this thread are well made and I thank you for sharing some context in your 2016 post. It certainly adds value to your point of view and i'm sorry you have experienced both sides. I'll try to address your points in order so as to share my views. I will set out now that my personal belief is that a false allegation of rape is worse than rape. You agreed to this on a personal level in your linked post, but you expand here to include the societal impact.

So, rape is a crime against the community. I understand this because it creates a sense of fear and loss in the community. It alters peoples behaviours and how they think of their community when a rape occurs within, or to someone within the community. I would argue that a proven false rape allegation does more damage to a community. Firstly, the community and those closest to person making the allegation will experience the same turmoil as if the rape had occurred. Secondly, the person or persons accused will experience all those feelings of dread and uncertainty as their good name is dragged through the mud and they fear prison, financial ruin and many losses. Finally, if the allegation is proven false with clear evidence that there was no sex, or there was consent to sex, the damage is still being done, because only some people are big enough to adjust their pre-conceived beliefs. There is anger from the accused and others that nothing will be done in most cases to the accuser because the authorities fear it will discourage real victims from coming forward. This is a denial of justice.

Further damage is done because men in many cases are refusing to allow themselves into a situation where there is a remote possibility that an allegation be made against them. I'm not talking about a couple of college kids after having a few drinks and having sex, i'm talking about work place scenarios where women are being excluded for fear of an allegation being made.

My argument relating to perjury was poorly constructed. It would not be right or just to simply slap on the same sentence the accused would have got. I put this forward because both perjury and rape carry maximum sentences of 7 years. However, the real issue is the lack of interest from the authorities in pursuing such cases, even when there is strong evidence against the person who made the rape allegation.

This is probably the wrong thread to assume a lack of personal experience. I am fully conscious of the difficulty for a rape victim to come forward. I have experience on both sides, but I will not be going into any detail here. What I will say, is that a false accusation can do many times more damage than being the victim of rape. Not just to the accused, but to the community at large. It is much easier to control the aftermath of being raped, but when there is a malicious and false allegation made, the control of information is out of the hands of the accused as you have said yourself in the 2016 post. Solid proof of the lie is not enough to convince some who would have made up their mind after hearing the accusation.

Pound for pound, I strongly believe it is worse to be falsely accused than to be the true victim of rape. But I will add that there are different degrees to both sides. The extremities of each side could be a rape victim being orally assaulted for a few seconds by someone they went to bed with after a night out on the town. Or it could be a violent, full penetration event that went on for a long period of time. Likewise, the accused could be a nobody with no job, friends, family or responsibilities. Or they could be a well known and respected member of their community with a well paid job, their own house, a family to look after and many friends. The degrees of harm caused are undoubtedly going to be very different, so it is unfair for anyone (myself included) to state that one crime is worse than the other unless proper comparisons can be made.

I am aware of other peoples personal stories from both sides and have huge empathy in either case. Unfortunately, false accusations are not as rare as some would like to believe. At least not in my experience. I personally know of four women who made such claims and only one of those made a complaint to the authorities. The other ones still did a lot of damage even though there was no official complaint. I hope this sheds more light on where I am coming from.

bubblypop wrote: »

Then you won't mind linking to these cases then?

Are you saying you are not aware of such examples? I could fish out a few if you need me to, but I expected such examples are commonly accepted and that not every assertion requires links to cases.

And we are talking about Ireland, as this is Ireland and our laws are what we are talking about here.
There have been cases where women have been prosecuted for making false claims, I'm not sure where you came up with the idea that there is 'no appetite ' for that?

As we are talking about Ireland and you say there are cases where women have been prosecuted for making false (rape) claims, perhaps you can link these cases. I am genuinely not aware of such prosecutions in Ireland. It could be that they are kept very low key if there are examples.

My understanding from research I have carried out is that such cases are rarely taken and when they are taken, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence required and the person who made the allegation has a history of it, or was too brazen and inconsistent in their lies. None of these cases were in the Republic of Ireland.

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, personally through work I know if 3 women who were charged with making false statements regarding rape or sexual assault, but just from googling ( I am on the phone!) The first page throws up, Regina De Oliveira, Sarah Browne, Kerry Holt, also few northern ones coming up.
It's really not unusual.

Thanks for those results. What happened of the 3 from work you know of and what were the circumstances (if that is ok to ask)?

Regina De Oliveira = suspended sentence. I see nothing about the person she falsely accused.

Sarah Browne = 1 month jail. Admitted she gave consent in follow up statement.

Judge said "This man lost his liberty as a result of his arrest, detention and questioning. This man considers he is labelled in his community as a result of her false statement"

Kerry Holt = suspended sentence. She falsely accused a man of raping her. Her boyfriend went to the Gardai to express his belief of her lies. She later admitted to lying about it. The victim was smeared in the community.

From skim reading these articles and with very little information on the impact caused to the victims of the allegations, it does seem very much like these three women largely got away with it. Even if no harm had come to the men, or the men were fictional, the sentences should have been greater than what was received.

What do you think?

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, they didn't get away with it, they were charged and convicted before the courts. The penalties are decided by the judge, we have all seen mad sentences for different crimes, depending on circumstances and the judge.
It's a conviction that they will have to live with.

I'll be honest, I don't remember exactly what happened with the 3 females at work,(it's been a while) but they were convicted also.
It can be a hard charge to prove sometimes, but I can assure you that Gardai and the DPPs office do take these crimes very seriously.

I concede that false accusations have attracted a few convictions. I don't think I said there were no such cases, only that I was not aware of any. The sentences are so small as to suggest that no harm was done. I would choose a month in jail over a potential lifetime of being smeared. I think if any of the 3 you mentioned from work had received anything more than the 3 other examples you gave, you might remember them more clearly, which leads me to believe the sentences were 0-short. I am not assured that the Gardaí and DPP take false allegations seriously. I have witnessed and experienced the exact opposite from the Gardaí and with a DPP who charged an elderly man despite CCTV evidence proving his accuser was lying....well, i'll leave it there.