2019 World Athletics Championships, Doha

Tombo2001 · 08-10-2019 3:59pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Qatar has a terrible record of human rights, but the UK has hardly covered itself in glory in that regard either.

Hello China?

Regarding the other point _

I have a distinct recollection of David GIllick being in a world championship final circa ten years ago.

Its was the first time in my memory that any Irish sprinter had reached a major final.

If the country had any interest in athletics, it would be a major event.

From memory, RTE werent showing it. As I only had Saorview I had to go to a local pub to watch it. 19 TVs in the place, mega pub, one of them showing Gillick and I am the only person watching it.....

And ye are whingeing about low attendances in Doha? Give me a break......how many people go to the national championships in Santry.....

Chivito550 · 08-10-2019 4:11pm

Another thing about London is that the crowd were fairly clueless. They were happy to boo Gatlin but had no issue with any other drug cheats that were competing. Funny that. It was a pretty embarrassing statement of ignorance to be honest. I found the crowds in Berlin last year and Moscow in 2013 far more knowledgeable about athletics.

The atmosphere in Doha was far more diverse than London with East Africans and Indian communities living in Doha getting a rare chance to support their athletes in the flesh.

London was a better championships, and probably the best I've been to with the exception of Berlin last year, but it was hardly perfect.

average_runner · 09-10-2019 1:39pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Another thing about London is that the crowd were fairly clueless. They were happy to boo Gatlin but had no issue with any other drug cheats that were competing. Funny that. It was a pretty embarrassing statement of ignorance to be honest. I found the crowds in Berlin last year and Moscow in 2013 far more knowledgeable about athletics.

The atmosphere in Doha was far more diverse than London with East Africans and Indian communities living in Doha getting a rare chance to support their athletes in the flesh.

London was a better championships, and probably the best I've been to with the exception of Berlin last year, but it was hardly perfect.

In fairness Paula, Denise and others from within the sport were also basically booing Gatlin. They aren't clueless about the sport, idiots maybe.

Also the media caused the booing of Gatlin, you could say the media was clueless and bad journalists

Tombo2001 · 09-10-2019 1:42pm

average_runner wrote: »

In fairness Paula, Denise and others from within the sport were also basically booing Gatlin. They aren't clueless about the sport, idiots maybe.

Also the media caused the booing of Gatlin, you could say the media was clueless and bad journalists

Didn't we have a similar thing here? Cathal Lombard absolutely castigated in the press, while others that committed doping offences were treated more favourably....

yerwanthere123 · 10-10-2019 3:34pm

is_that_so wrote: »

She's the mile record holder so has the speed. A lot of the rest of this is down to your own projections and you're entitled to that but the word objective is far from your mind.

I'm not sure on what basis you can say I'm lacking objectivity. Are we forgetting the fact that her coach has just been given a four year athletics ban for doping related offences?

I'm aware of her world record, and I wouldn't have been so surprised if she had just chosen to run the 1500. But do you not find it not even a little suspicious that she won gold over 10,000m, and then destroyed the field just a few days later over 1500m, and ran the 6th fastest ever time in the process? A time which only presumed dopers have ever run?

Look, I'm not even saying she definitely doping. I've always been a fan of hers, and just a few days previously I posted how I was "delighted" for her winning the 10k. However I think anybody who isn't even a little uncomfortable with what Sifan has achieved inside the last couple of weeks, and given the context with which it was achieved, needs to ask themselves some serious questions.

yerwanthere123 · 10-10-2019 3:37pm

Ciara Mageean has some thoughts on the matter, difficult to disagree with her.

walshb · 10-10-2019 3:46pm

Any pro athletes on here shed some light on what's being made of her running a 10000 metres and then a 1500 metres.....

I am no expert, but with "several days" rest, why should running a 10000 be a possible issue to your performance in a 15000 with days of rest?

EL G did the 1500 and 5000, and he had a 5000 heat as well....

Is it not a possibility that the longer distance can somewhat help the athlete? Kind of really get the juices flowing, body ready, and then with the few days rest, really ready to go at 1500?

I think of all the doubles, a 10000/1500 double with days rest wouldn't be the most difficult double...

A 1500 heat, semi, final.... followed by a 5000 heat and final.......well, that would be more difficult on the body.

I know she did the order different, as in 10000 first, but no heat. Had she done the 1500 first, maybe the 10000 wouldn't have been as easy.

YFlyer · 10-10-2019 4:32pm

walshb wrote: »

Any pro athletes on here shed some light on what's being made of her running a 10000 metres and then a 1500 metres.....

I am no expert, but with "several days" rest, why should running a 10000 be a possible issue to your performance in a 15000 with days of rest?

EL G did the 1500 and 5000, and he had a 5000 heat as well....

Is it not a possibility that the longer distance can somewhat help the athlete? Kind of really get the juices flowing, body ready, and then with the few days rest, really ready to go at 1500?

I think of all the doubles, a 10000/1500 double with days rest wouldn't be the most difficult double...

A 1500 heat, semi, final.... followed by a 5000 heat and final.......well, that would be more difficult on the body.

I know she did the order different, as in 10000 first, but no heat. Had she done the 1500 first, maybe the 10000 wouldn't have been as easy.

I would say that 1500/10000m range be similar on effort to 1500/5000m.

walshb · 10-10-2019 4:42pm

YFlyer wrote: »

I would say that 1500/10000m range be similar on effort to 1500/5000m.

Few permutations

What race comes first. Is there heats in both etc....

I think a 1500/5000 or 5000/1500 is tougher on the body than a 10000/1500 or 1500/10000.

Anyway, I am not getting the hanging onto this "Oh, and she only ran a 10000 metres a few days previously," as if it was some "evidence" to add to the suspicion. Maybe, just maybe, she was at a slight advantage over the athletes in the 1500 that did not run the 10000 metres a few days earlier....

Either way, I know of nothing clear or scientific that says that her running the 10000 meters days before the 1500 somehow means that she couldn't run the 1500 meters to her true potential..

runnerholic · 10-10-2019 6:00pm

walshb wrote: »

Few permutations

What race comes first. Is there heats in both etc....

I think a 1500/5000 or 5000/1500 is tougher on the body than a 10000/1500 or 1500/10000.

Anyway, I am not getting the hanging onto this "Oh, and she only ran a 10000 metres a few days previously," as if it was some "evidence" to add to the suspicion. Maybe, just maybe, she was at a slight advantage over the athletes in the 1500 that did not run the 10000 metres a few days earlier....

Either way, I know of nothing clear or scientific that says that her running the 10000 meters days before the 1500 somehow means that she couldn't run the 1500 meters to her true potential..

Imo Jacob Ingebritsen ruined his chances of medalling in the 1500m by running the 5000m a few days earlier.

walshb · 10-10-2019 7:04pm

runnerholic wrote: »

Imo Jacob Ingebritsen ruined his chances of medalling in the 1500m by running the 5000m a few days earlier.

Yes, may well have.

I think the order is also something to consider..

yerwanthere123 · 11-10-2019 2:17pm

walshb wrote: »

Any pro athletes on here shed some light on what's being made of her running a 10000 metres and then a 1500 metres.....

I am no expert, but with "several days" rest, why should running a 10000 be a possible issue to your performance in a 15000 with days of rest?

EL G did the 1500 and 5000, and he had a 5000 heat as well....

Is it not a possibility that the longer distance can somewhat help the athlete? Kind of really get the juices flowing, body ready, and then with the few days rest, really ready to go at 1500?

I think of all the doubles, a 10000/1500 double with days rest wouldn't be the most difficult double...

A 1500 heat, semi, final.... followed by a 5000 heat and final.......well, that would be more difficult on the body.

I know she did the order different, as in 10000 first, but no heat. Had she done the 1500 first, maybe the 10000 wouldn't have been as easy.

It kinda goes without saying doesn't it? Obviously taking park in a 10k race a few days before a 1500m race is going to tire out the legs somewhat? It's the reason why athletes are so careful about doubling up at championships, and why most choose to focus on one event only. I've never once before heard someone trying to state that taking park in a 10k race could actually help someone in a 1500 a few days later.

walshb wrote: »

Few permutations

What race comes first. Is there heats in both etc....

I think a 1500/5000 or 5000/1500 is tougher on the body than a 10000/1500 or 1500/10000.

Anyway, I am not getting the hanging onto this "Oh, and she only ran a 10000 metres a few days previously," as if it was some "evidence" to add to the suspicion. Maybe, just maybe, she was at a slight advantage over the athletes in the 1500 that did not run the 10000 metres a few days earlier....

Either way, I know of nothing clear or scientific that says that her running the 10000 meters days before the 1500 somehow means that she couldn't run the 1500 meters to her true potential..

I mean, do we need scientific knowledge to know that racing a 1500m just days after running the 26th fastest 10k ever is going to be harder to do? And how can it not be "evidence" to add to the suspicion, particularly in light of the fact her coach has just been given a four year athletics ban for doping? I can't believe what I'm reading here tbh.

As I've already said, I've always been a big fan of Hassan, I want her to be clean, but to deny what we've seen her do inside the last two weeks may be too good to be true is ridiculous.

walshb · 11-10-2019 2:24pm

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

It kinda goes without saying doesn't it? Obviously taking park in a 10k race a few days before a 1500m race is going to tire out the legs somewhat?
.

It would sure tire the legs, but for how long? These people are highly tuned elite machines.

Kind of similar analogy here is boxing. 5-6 fights tournaments. Nothing at all to say that after fight 1, tough fight or not, that your efforts then lessen in fight 2 a day or two later....and after fight 2 you lessen more, and so on.

So I do not agree or think that it "goes without saying."

I will agree that it tires the legs, but I didn't ask this. I asked if it is detrimental to competing several days later at a different distance.

These athletes can absolutely 100 percent recover from a 10000 metres, and be fully fit and ready for 1500 meters a few days later

EL G did two doubles at 1500 and 5000. In 2003 he ran 12.52 mins, (superb time) and that after a heat, and after several 1500 metres races days earlier.

He did the same double a year later in Athens.

IvoryTower · 14-10-2019 1:06pm

walshb wrote: »

I am no expert, but with "several days" rest, why should running a 10000 be a possible issue to your performance in a 1500 with days of rest?

walshb wrote: »

These athletes can absolutely 100 percent recover from a 10000 metres, and be fully fit and ready for 1500 meters a few days later

You ask the questions and then answer them, useful to have around :pac:

Tombo2001 · 14-10-2019 1:11pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

You ask the questions and then answer them, useful to have around :pac:

To be fair, there is no absolute answer to this but there are precedents on both sides.

Am I right in saying there was a full week between the two?

John Treacy ran a 10000 meters final 6 days before the marathon in 1984 for example.

Of course there are reasons to question Sifan Hassan, aside from this.

Chivito550 · 14-10-2019 1:17pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

To be fair, there is no absolute answer to this but there are precedents on both sides.

Am I right in saying there was a full week between the two?

John Treacy ran a 10000 meters final 6 days before the marathon in 1984 for example.

Of course there are reasons to question Sifan Hassan, aside from this.

I remember the Europeans in 2002 and Sonia got silver in the 10000m. About 4 days later she ran in the 5000m and got beaten by the narrowest margin by Marta Dominguez.

She was asked did the 10000m in her legs affect her. She said not at all and that she was long recovered from that. She lost the race because of a poor tactical move where she kicked way too soon and ran out of legs in the last 20m.

Now, this was European level, not world level, and there were no heats of the 5000m, unlike 2 rounds of 1500m before the final, but I think we do place too much emphasis on how much one race can take out of somebody's legs. Doubling up is not an issue for most athletes when the 10000m is a straight final.

walshb · 14-10-2019 1:59pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

You ask the questions and then answer them, useful to have around :pac:

I know. I’m a tease!

Itziger · 14-10-2019 2:37pm

Sure didn't one on Kipchoge's pacers do 3x5k in 14.10 (not 14.30 as I said somewhere else) with about similar rest in between!

Tombo2001 · 15-10-2019 11:44am

Chivito550 wrote: »

I remember the Europeans in 2002 and Sonia got silver in the 10000m. About 4 days later she ran in the 5000m and got beaten by the narrowest margin by Marta Dominguez.

She was asked did the 10000m in her legs affect her. She said not at all and that she was long recovered from that. She lost the race because of a poor tactical move where she kicked way too soon and ran out of legs in the last 20m.

Now, this was European level, not world level, and there were no heats of the 5000m, unlike 2 rounds of 1500m before the final, but I think we do place too much emphasis on how much one race can take out of somebody's legs. Doubling up is not an issue for most athletes when the 10000m is a straight final.

I vaguely remember talk of Said Aouita targeting the clean sweep of 800m, 1500m, 5000m and 10000m at the Seoul Olympics, but he got injured early.

He was certainly good enough to win at any of those distances, though not at all of them.

The same could apply to a lot of top distance runners; I'd imagine Kenenisa Bekele could have won Olympic medals at 800m or 1500m if he'd tried.

Tombo2001 · 15-10-2019 11:48am

WalshB - it strikes me that you are an Olympics guy, more than any one particular sport?

That is to say, you don't particularly give a flip if Liverpool or Man City wins the premier league, but would have relatively informed views on badminton, gymnastics, rowing, swimming and so on, but boxing and athletics in particular.

walshb · 15-10-2019 12:25pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

WalshB - it strikes me that you are an Olympics guy, more than any one particular sport?

That is to say, you don't particularly give a flip if Liverpool or Man City wins the premier league, but would have relatively informed views on badminton, gymnastics, rowing, swimming and so on, but boxing and athletics in particular.

That's me in a nutshell....

Premier League and Rugby and GAA soap opera type sport never really intrigued me....

But I do love Boxing and T&F....

And swimming!

walshb · 15-10-2019 12:26pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The same could apply to a lot of top distance runners; I'd imagine Kenenisa Bekele could have won Olympic medals at 800m or 1500m if he'd tried.

Not much hope at 800......not strong enough, and not built for it....

It's a very specific distance....

Chivito550 · 15-10-2019 12:34pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I vaguely remember talk of Said Aouita targeting the clean sweep of 800m, 1500m, 5000m and 10000m at the Seoul Olympics, but he got injured early.

He was certainly good enough to win at any of those distances, though not at all of them.

The same could apply to a lot of top distance runners; I'd imagine Kenenisa Bekele could have won Olympic medals at 800m or 1500m if he'd tried.

Very few Ethiopians in general have excelled at 800m. Mohammad Aman was one of the exceptions.

Tombo2001 · 15-10-2019 12:36pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Very few Ethiopians in general have excelled at 800m. Mohammad Aman was one of the exceptions.

Said Aouita is Moroccan.....

EDIT- you are referring to Bekele, apologies.

I take the point.

Its an interesting one.

Bekele's PB for 1500m is 3.32, which is pretty handy. He'd have done a decent 800m for sure, but maybe not Olympic medal winning levels.

walshb · 15-10-2019 12:37pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Said Aouita is Moroccan.....

Bekele is Ethiopian......I think this was the poster's reference.

OOnegative · 24-10-2019 11:32pm

https://www.the42.ie/ciara-mageean-drug-testing-athletics-4865804-Oct2019/

Am sure walshb will throw the toys out of the pram as usual.....

Ceepo · 24-10-2019 11:48pm

OOnegative wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/ciara-mageean-drug-testing-athletics-4865804-Oct2019/

Am sure walshb will throw the toys out of the pram as usual.....

Tested 3 times in 3 weeks, that seems like a lot imo.
Some international stars probably wont be tested that may times in their sporting lifetime..

Ceepo · 24-10-2019 11:52pm

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/paul-kimmage-a-letter-the-churchill-cup-and-jamie-heaslip-the-curious-case-of-the-positive-test-38613291.html

Great to see Kimmage still asking questions that no other reporter will ask.

OOnegative · 04-11-2019 7:51pm

https://www.the42.ie/alberto-salazar-mo-farah-athletes-wada-investigation-4878669-Nov2019/

About time & great to see.

Ceepo · 04-11-2019 9:17pm

OOnegative wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/alberto-salazar-mo-farah-athletes-wada-investigation-4878669-Nov2019/

About time & great to see.

Apart from WADA reviewing the AAA panel findings, USADA's evidence, from witness testimonies, transcripts; Salazar's evidence, and combined with athlete data in ADAMS, what more can WADA do that USADA didn't

IMO the out come will be that WADA accepts the thoroughness USADA's investigation and the AAA Panel findings.

I don't see any other outcome

Ceepo · 04-11-2019 9:33pm

On a similar note, does anyone know were the WADA investigation into the Jama Aden affair is. ?

yerwanthere123 · 05-06-2020 6:24pm

4Ad wrote: »

Nasser...wow ! Didn't think she'd hold on...

nannerby wrote: »

wow what a run by naser

Pherekydes wrote: »

Insane race by Naser. Miller-Uibo can't believe she ran so fast and lost.

Choochtown wrote: »

Wow! What a time from Naser!

"Unbelievable" repeatedly being said on TV commentary.

skyblue46 wrote: »

Nasser....3rd fastest time in history! Nothing to see here! Up there with Koch and Kratochvilova. Records that nobody would ever get near again. No wonder Miller Uibo looked shocked!

Well this didn't take long :pac:

Naser provisonally suspended for missing three drug tests.

OOnegative · 05-06-2020 6:40pm

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

Well this didn't take long :pac:

Naser provisonally suspended for missing three drug tests.

skyblue46 was spot on!!

yerwanthere123 · 05-06-2020 6:43pm

Chepkoech next I wonder? :cool:

callmehal · 05-06-2020 10:21pm

Why can't any of the new dopers beat the times of the dopers of the past? Well, probably some of them are but haven't been caught.

Ceepo · 06-06-2020 3:13pm

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

Well this didn't take long :pac:

Naser provisonally suspended for missing three drug tests.

Don't think there should be much surprise here, with an agent/manager like Juan Pineda.
The same Juan the that managed the banned Kiptum and a host of other athletes they were questionable, and linked to Jama Aden.

OOnegative · 07-06-2020 3:23pm

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/52956011

Turns out it was 4 missed tests!! The lady herself is very flippant about the whole thing, more or less saying it’s no big deal missing tests!!

Ceepo · 07-06-2020 5:26pm

OOnegative wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/52956011

Turns out it was 4 missed tests!! The lady herself is very flippant about the whole thing, more or less saying it’s no big deal missing tests!!

Explaining that the missed tests occurred before September's World Championships, she added: "Hopefully, it'll get resolved because I don't really like the image. It's going to be fine. It's very hard to have this little stain on my name."

You would wonder if the missed test was prior to WC,
1, how come it's only coming to light now?
2, why she wasn't suspended before WC.
She also stated that she hadn't been tested this year.
" This year I have not been drug tested. We are still talking about the ones of last season before the World Championships."

If she had 3 missed test last year. You would imagine that this would be enough of a red flag to carry out some tests this year, pre covid lock down..

Itziger · 07-06-2020 5:45pm

Ceepo wrote: »

Explaining that the missed tests occurred before September's World Championships, she added: "Hopefully, it'll get resolved because I don't really like the image. It's going to be fine. It's very hard to have this little stain on my name."

You would wonder if the missed test was prior to WC,
1, how come it's only coming to light now?
2, why she wasn't suspended before WC.
She also stated that she hadn't been tested this year.
" This year I have not been drug tested. We are still talking about the ones of last season before the World Championships."

If she had 3 missed test last year. You would imagine that this would be enough of a red flag to carry out some tests this year, pre covid lock down..

They'll have to find her first!! (Haven't read the story so don't know the reasons given for missing all them tests. Airpods in all the time, didn't hear the bell?)

Ceepo · 07-06-2020 8:01pm

Itziger wrote: »

They'll have to find her first!! (Haven't read the story so don't know the reasons given for missing all them tests. Airpods in all the time, didn't hear the bell?)

Turns out the 4th test was this year.
So yes she was correct in saying she wasn't tested this year.

The only way this story could get worse is if it has the same outcome as Christian Coleman

Murph_D · 07-06-2020 9:28pm

This article clears it all up. Just a few 'normal' misses.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/06/athletics-missing-three-drugs-tests-is-normal-says-salwa-eid-naser

skyblue46 · 07-06-2020 10:31pm

It's about time they reset the world records in lots of the female events. Considering there are such significant bonuses available for setting new world records in events where it seems that most are unreachable without 'assistance'. In the 400m the times of Koch and Kratochvilova are out of reach for clean athletes...expunge them

Ceepo · 08-06-2020 10:03am

skyblue46 wrote: »

It's about time they reset the world records in lots of the female events. Considering there are such significant bonuses available for setting new world records in events where it seems that most are unreachable without 'assistance'. In the 400m the times of Koch and Kratochvilova are out of reach for clean athletes...expunge them

But how do you decide what is creditable if you start to expunge records. Remember we all thought Radcliffe marathon record and the women's 10,000m record were untouchable, also what about the on the mens side, is the 100m untouchable.. Or the mile and 1500.. Or the mens marathon, are they to be believed,

I don't disagree with your point BTW,

skyblue46 · 08-06-2020 10:20am

Ceepo wrote: »

But how do you decide what is creditable if you start to expunge records. Remember we all thought Radcliffe marathon record and the women's 10,000m record were untouchable, also what about the on the mens side, is the 100m untouchable.. Or the mile and 1500.. Or the mens marathon, are they to be believed,

I don't disagree with your point BTW,

I accept it would be impossible to select particular events. I really don't know the answer. It's a terrible position for the sport to be in.

IvoryTower · 08-06-2020 10:28am

Just start the records again. Pick what they believe to be an achievable clean result for each event as a start. We forever have pre 2020 records and post 2020.

spc78 · 08-06-2020 10:47am

IvoryTower wrote: »

Just start the records again. Pick what they believe to be an achievable clean result for each event as a start. We forever have pre 2020 records and post 2020.

Considering we have had no drug testing for the last 3 months, and dopers gonna dope, 2022 might be more the time to expunge all records and start again as I'd say we have a pretty dodgy period upcoming where a few records might be broken.

Itziger · 08-06-2020 2:45pm

It's more or less impossible to draw a line in the records/sand. Obviously, the East German stuff and some other Soviet athletic achievements from back in the day are dodgy but let's not think we're all fine now or will be anytime soon.

One of the most cynical and pathetic versions of that hope was the Post-Festina era in cycling. 1999, the new all-clean Lance and Co. era. I mean, it wasn't exactly just Lance!! There must have been Tours where there were only a handful of clean riders.

So, hoping things will be better from date X on, well it doesn't really make much sense to be honest even though we now have blood passports and such like.

average_runner · 08-06-2020 3:39pm

I say the higher percentage is dirty in athletics than clean sadly.

Big countries picking on Russia only, must be hiding something about their own

walshb · 13-06-2020 12:08pm

The usual pessimism about records..

Every WR is astounding. They are world records...they are meant to be astounding

Picking one or two as being more astounding is guess work. And no sense.

400 metres women vs say Edwards triple jump?

What’s better? Impossible to say. Both exceptional human feats..

EL Gs 3:26 1500 v women’s 800? Again, impossible to say. Both exceptional.

I mean, if folks are picking records here and there for expunging, why stop at 1/2/3? They are all capable of being argued as exceptional and the best and the toughest to break...

Just enjoy them..

Personally I think the Flo Jo 10.49 (dodgy wind reader notwithstanding) is the most dominant. But several others come close. Bolt 9.58 and Rudisha sub 1.41 800 spring to mind!

Chicoso · 13-06-2020 12:19pm

Some of the cynicism is justified

The Czechs and the east Germans had doping programs

Large numbers of Kenyans and Moroccans have been banned

2019 World Athletics Championships, Doha

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