Gun safe won't open

Heckler · 11-08-2020 11:58pm #1

Hi,

Having a bit of trouble with my gun safe. Opened it to get my gear out a couple of days ago and relocked. Went back a few hours later to put the gear back in and it wouldn't open. I have two keys neither of which would work so I doubt both keys failed at the same time. its a Vogue 4-gun safe. Theres little to no give twisting the key to the unlock position.

https://www.topline.ie/tools-hardware/hardware/home-security/safes/vogue/4-gun-cabinet-deep

I'm going to get a locksmith over but thought I'd ask if anyone has had a similiar problem and/or solutions.

I'm aware I have an unsecured firearm at the moment. Components are distributed and well hidden and house is alarmed.

Thanks for any help/advice.

tudderone · 12-08-2020 12:15am

Getting a locksmith out will probably cost as much as a new cabinet, especially if you need a new lock fitted. Might be cheaper to butcher it open and buy a new one.

Cass · 12-08-2020 12:51am

Was it difficult to lock the last time you were at it?

I ask because while my safes are not the same make i had this with one of them. Turns out a rifle sling got caught as i was locking it. The sling somehow managed to wedge itself between the locking bar (that come from the door) and the edge (inside) of the safe. Was a little harder to lock than normal but not so much that i noticed. However when it came to unlocking the safe the sling kinda crumpled up essentially pushed against the locking bar of the safe.

I tried it a few times without much force thinking i was doing harm, but when i realised it was force it or call a locksmith i gave it a hard turn and it unlocked. It was then i seen the sling and where it had wedged itself. So now i make sure they're well tucked up before locking.

Of course it could simply be the locked is knackered.

12-08-2020 1:32am

Shoot the lock off!

Uinseann_16 · 12-08-2020 2:34am

Cass wrote: »

Was it difficult to lock the last time you were at it?

I ask because while my safes are not the same make i had this with one of them. Turns out a rifle sling got caught as i was locking it. The sling somehow managed to wedge itself between the locking bar (that come from the door) and the edge (inside) of the safe. Was a little harder to lock than normal but not so much that i noticed. However when it came to unlocking the safe the sling kinda crumpled up essentially pushed against the locking bar of the safe.

I tried it a few times without much force thinking i was doing harm, but when i realised it was force it or call a locksmith i gave it a hard turn and it unlocked. It was then i seen the sling and where it had wedged itself. So now i make sure they're well tucked up before locking.

Of course it could simply be the locked is knackered.

+1 to Cass here , I had the same thing happen with a warmflow 4 gun cabinet the sling on my rifle got bunched up and closed on , solution for me was to push the door in hard then put in the key

CJhaughey · 12-08-2020 7:32am

Try giving the safe a rattle with either your fist or a rubber mallet while you are working the lock gently with the key, vibrations can often allow the key to turn when friction will jam it

tudderone · 12-08-2020 11:55am

I thought the key was broken in the lock ?

Grizzly 45 · 12-08-2020 12:51pm

From what he is describing the key won't turn in the lock? Which suggests there is something out of alignment between the lock mechanism and the locking bars causing them to jam into their slots,or jamming the door out of alignment slightly.

Good news and bad news here;

Unless you can figure out some way of getting that sling out from the lip to un jam the mechanism.... You could possibly try and get a shim in along the ,more than likely bottom or sides of the safe and se if you can push the sling back. into the safe.It cant be much material ,as otherwise it wouldnt have allowed the door to close and lock in the first place?

On the positive side of things.It proves your safe mechanism is working 100% as that is exactly how it is supposed to respond to a attempt at jemmying the door open:)

Rows Grower · 12-08-2020 2:49pm

4" Grinder with a diamond tip disc and a new safe off eBay.

Heckler · 12-08-2020 5:31pm

No trouble that I can recall locking it last time. There is a rifle in there but it doesn't have a sling so thats not the problem. Nothing else that could have fallen into the mechanism either.

It has given a bit of trouble a couple of times but was always able to open it eventually. Suppose it just got worse over time until it failed totally.

Heckler · 12-08-2020 5:31pm

tudderone wrote: »

I thought the key was broken in the lock ?

Nope. The key just won't turn in the lock.

Heckler · 12-08-2020 5:32pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Try giving the safe a rattle with either your fist or a rubber mallet while you are working the lock gently with the key, vibrations can often allow the key to turn when friction will jam it

I'll give it a go !

Chiparus · 12-08-2020 6:49pm

Check both keys, I have a similar safe and the quality of the keys is not the best and a 'tooth" came off one of the keys.

Make sure both keys match up.

JohnFitz2332 · 12-08-2020 7:24pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

4" Grinder with a diamond tip disc and a new safe off eBay.

Is the safe made of concrete or something

bud2000 · 12-08-2020 7:34pm

Can you get a lever screwdriver apply small bit of pressure either up down side by side or as someone said push in with knee or wedge of a wall use a lubricant failing that grinder I know all sounds silly but hopfully it will work out

Uinseann_16 · 12-08-2020 7:43pm

Thats a good idea use a penetrating oil to try to soak the bolt moving mechanism , not the actual key hole:D

Grizzly 45 · 12-08-2020 9:16pm

Heckler wrote: »

No trouble that I can recall locking it last time. There is a rifle in there but it doesn't have a sling so thats not the problem. Nothing else that could have fallen into the mechanism either.

It has given a bit of trouble a couple of times but was always able to open it eventually. Suppose it just got worse over time until it failed totally.

How did it give trouble before?Were the keys getting harder to turn?.Having:more resistance in the turn before it locked?[Like taking up trigger slack?]
So if it is not a sling pushing the dead bolts out of alingement,it is more than likely then in the the lock mechanism itself,which a locksmith could possibly sort out by puling back the levers inside the mechanism.
Otherwise its the angle grinder key Im afraid.:(

Uinseann_16 · 12-08-2020 9:42pm

I have a warmflow 4 gun safe and i added grease to the mechanism because it was being slow to open and close
It appears to be the same mechanism as yours the key moves the lock which moves the bar directly which is alot on a inexpensive lock over time

I upgraded to a safe with a handle that moves the bolts after the key is turned
If you could figure out where one of the bolts is you could drill a hole through the side of the safe and whack the (center preferably) bolt as your trying to move the key , that would be last resort before the angle grinder key

Heckler · 13-08-2020 12:23am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

How did it give trouble before?Were the keys getting harder to turn?.Having:more resistance in the turn before it locked?[Like taking up trigger slack?]
So if it is not a sling pushing the dead bolts out of alingement,it is more than likely then in the the lock mechanism itself,which a locksmith could possibly sort out by puling back the levers inside the mechanism.
Otherwise its the angle grinder key Im afraid.:(

Just a few times the key wouldn't turn but a bit of wiggling and kicking the door did the job. This was only once or twice.

I'm going to try a pry bar tomorrow just to maybe shift the door position a bit in or out or up and down as suggested by Bud2000. I've tried hitting around the lock while working the key but no joy.

I'd say its goosed. I have no idea how a locksmith would even approach it. An inch long keyhole is all they'd have to work with. Then again thats why they are the experts.

Chiparus I've checked both keys. Nothing broken off either. Both exactly the same.

With the virus the safe wasn't used much over the last 6 months. Only opened a couple of times for keeping non gun related things. Dunno if that would have any effect.

Thanks for the replies. If anyone has any other ideas feel free to throw them out there !

Heckler · 13-08-2020 12:26am

"It appears to be the same mechanism as yours the key moves the lock which moves the bar directly which is alot on a inexpensive lock over time."

Yup I think thats how it works alright.

dinorebel · 13-08-2020 12:33am

Blow the bloody doors off

tudderone · 13-08-2020 12:33am

Heckler wrote: »

Just a few times the key wouldn't turn but a bit of wiggling and kicking the door did the job. This was only once or twice.

I'm going to try a pry bar tomorrow just to maybe shift the door position a bit in or out or up and down as suggested by Bud2000. I've tried hitting around the lock while working the key but no joy.

I'd say its goosed. I have no idea how a locksmith would even approach it. An inch long keyhole is all they'd have to work with. Then again thats why they are the experts.

Chiparus I've checked both keys. Nothing broken off either. Both exactly the same.

With the virus the safe wasn't used much over the last 6 months. Only opened a couple of times for keeping non gun related things. Dunno if that would have any effect.

Thanks for the replies. If anyone has any other ideas feel free to throw them out there !

If you can open it without damaging the safe itself, you can replace the lock yourself, they'll be an off the shelf item.

Cass · 13-08-2020 12:40am

Before you call a locksmith, and you might NOT want to try this, if its goosed why not try force it. By force it i mean key in, vice grips on flat bit of key, and pull like a dog. Its either gonna give or you'll definitely need a locksmith.

Last resort type stuff.

Peppa Cig · 13-08-2020 8:01am

WD40 into the key hole if not already done.

Let it soak for 10 mins before trying again .

viper123 · 13-08-2020 1:13pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Shoot the lock off!

With what ?!

TheBoyConor · 13-08-2020 1:19pm

Lubricating oil is not the fix. the lock is in regular use, it's not a rusty old thing that's been in a ditch for a few years.

A few vigorous slaps of a hammer to the areas around the lock while turning the key hard might break it loose.

If that don't work, take the safe outside, stand it up straight and push it over letting it slam down onto the concrete. That might dislodge anything that might be jamming the lock mechanism.

If that don't work. then take the grinder to it. It is already outside by then anyway.

Uinseann_16 · 13-08-2020 1:54pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Lubricating oil is not the fix. the lock is in regular use, it's not a rusty old thing that's been in a ditch for a few years.

A few vigorous slaps of a hammer to the areas around the lock while turning the key hard might break it loose.

If that don't work, take the safe outside, stand it up straight and push it over letting it slam down onto the concrete. That might dislodge anything that might be jamming the lock mechanism.

If that don't work. then take the grinder to it. It is already outside by then anyway.

Gun safes have to be bolted to a secure structure as per SI 307/2009 and the fastners tend to be inside the safe:P
Good luck trying to get that off a wall easily

OP , Best of luck with getting it open
When my safe got sticky it was the bolts not being lubricated but this is sounding like your lock is well banjaxed:(

Chiparus · 13-08-2020 1:55pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Lubricating oil is not the fix. the lock is in regular use, it's not a rusty old thing that's been in a ditch for a few years.

A few vigorous slaps of a hammer to the areas around the lock while turning the key hard might break it loose.

If that don't work, take the safe outside, stand it up straight and push it over letting it slam down onto the concrete. That might dislodge anything that might be jamming the lock mechanism.

If that don't work. then take the grinder to it. It is already outside by then anyway.

You could,
depends how much you value your guns?

TheBoyConor · 13-08-2020 2:25pm

It would hardly damage the guns in any significant way. sure they are made of steel.

A few good solid clouts of a lump hammer while turning the key hard would be the first idea anway.

Chiparus · 13-08-2020 2:45pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It would hardly damage the guns in any significant way. sure they are made of steel.

A few good solid clouts of a lump hammer while turning the key hard would be the first idea anway.

depends if you have a €3000 optic on any of them , or a fine turkish walnut stock.

TheBoyConor · 13-08-2020 2:47pm

Well if they are very expensive he can not do it then and just flake it a few belts of a hammer.

Heckler · 13-08-2020 5:45pm

I'm some dope ! Looks like it wasn't locked at all. Got home from work earlier and threw a lash of wd40 along the length of the door. Went back a while later, put the key in and a pry bar into the edge of the door. Bit of pressure on the pry and it just popped open. Seems the bolts were engaged just enough that pulling on it with the key in wouldn't open it but the pry bar created a bit of space to allow it to open.

The key will do a quarter turn either way now but that's having no effect on the bolts. There's a bit of give on the top bolt when pushed but none on the others.

Next job is to open the back of the door and see if I can figure out whats going on inside.

Tudderone you mentioned replacing the lock myself. Would this be a hard job for the obviously idiotic me ?

Oh and thanks for all the suggestions !

Uinseann_16 · 13-08-2020 5:50pm

Ahh a happy ending not too bad:D
If you sent a pick of the inside locking mechanism it would be easier to tell if the lock is replaceable

http://www.1010security.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=LF3010

This is the lock mechanism thats in my Warmflow 4 gun safe and it works fantastically

Heckler · 13-08-2020 6:27pm

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Ahh a happy ending not too bad:D
If you sent a pick of the inside locking mechanism it would be easier to tell if the lock is replaceable

http://www.1010security.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=LF3010

This is the lock mechanism thats in my Warmflow 4 gun safe and it works fantastically

It'll be tomorrow before I get a chance to open up the back and have a look but I defo post a pic. Hopefully it won't be too hard to replace the mechanism.

The safe has a small integrated lock box so at least I can lock away the pistol and slide and rifle bolt.

kunekunesika · 13-08-2020 7:24pm

Congratulations

Feisar · 13-08-2020 9:47pm

viper123 wrote: »

With what ?!

viper123 · 14-08-2020 10:46am

Feisar wrote: »

But its locked in the safe :pac:

JP22 · 14-08-2020 10:54pm

Heckler wrote: »

I'm some dope !

Don't be disheartened with yourself, we all make mistakes, its how we learn our best lessons.

Happy days, I was going to suggest using a pry-bar of screwdriver to slightly lift the door while turning the key. Sometimes the door hinges/bearing faces wear and the door slightly drops making it difficult to open.

FWIW, My safe will lock with one turn of the key HOWEVER, its not fully locked at that, fully locked it needs two full turns for the five bolts to fully engage, took a while to figure this out myself.

Oil will dry over time, try some grease on the lock and the bolt mechanism.

The basic locks can be bought off the shelf and DIY installed.

JP

Heckler · 15-08-2020 12:55pm

Thanks for that ! Gonna take off the back panel and see whats going on. I'll post a pic and maybe someone can advise on what to do.

Grizzly 45 · 15-08-2020 1:33pm

Feisar wrote: »

Ask AGS nicely up in the Park...I think they have one in the forensics collection,albeit chopped down abit in the barrel AFAIR:D:eek:

tudderone · 15-08-2020 1:40pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ask AGS nicely up in the Park...I think they have one in the forensics collection,albeit chopped down abit in the barrel AFAIR:D:eek:

You would wonder at the story of how a rifle like that made its way through a massive conflict like ww1 and end up in Ireland ?

Chiparus · 15-08-2020 2:03pm

tudderone wrote: »

You would wonder at the story of how a rifle like that made its way through a massive conflict like ww1 and end up in Ireland ?

Lots of stuff ended up in Ireland after WWI,
All the "war of independence" grenades that are found in attics etc are battle field pickups.

I saw a picture of the giant mauser in the garda collection, a few years ago, the pistol grip seemed to be gone.

tudderone · 15-08-2020 6:40pm

Chiparus wrote: »

Lots of stuff ended up in Ireland after WWI,
All the "war of independence" grenades that are found in attics etc are battle field pickups.

I saw a picture of the giant mauser in the garda collection, a few years ago, the pistol grip seemed to be gone.

Well having a pistol grip would make it restricted

Grizzly 45 · 15-08-2020 8:07pm

Chiparus wrote: »

Lots of stuff ended up in Ireland after WWI,
All the "war of independence" grenades that are found in attics etc are battle field pickups.

I saw a picture of the giant mauser in the garda collection, a few years ago, the pistol grip seemed to be gone.

Thats the same one,a cut down" Tank Gewehr".How that ended up here is going to be a really intresting story.

Yup,we even have a Artillery Luger converted to select fire in the Curragh armoury apprently as well.Complete with stock and snail drum and forward grip.
I suspect it's a Lebman conversion..Hyman Lebman was a gunsmith and saddle maker in San Antonio ,Texas who converted a 1911 A1 colt to full auto for John Dillinger inc changing the caliber to 38 super as a better round against the then body armour. Apprently he did a couple of these Luger conversions as well.
Stands to reason,plenty of them went to the US as war souviners,and they were cheap and cheerful semi auto carbines.Where even back then forking out 300 dollars for a full auto Thompson,must have made even Al Capone sweat in tooling up his gang. So something like this was a good alternative...But how it got to Ireland and where and when it was used in our history is the bigger untold story.

Heckler · 18-08-2020 6:21pm

Ok. Got the lock out. No sign of obvious damage. Pics on the way if ye could take a look.

Heckler · 18-08-2020 6:23pm

Sorry. Heres the rest.

Heckler · 18-08-2020 6:31pm

Aahh I think i got it. These fellas are shorn off yeah ?

bmc58 · 18-08-2020 6:34pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Try giving the safe a rattle with either your fist or a rubber mallet while you are working the lock gently with the key, vibrations can often allow the key to turn when friction will jam it

WD 40 works wonders in similar situations.

Heckler · 18-08-2020 6:56pm

Heckler wrote: »

Aahh I think i got it. These fellas are shorn off yeah ?

Nope. They're the levers. So its a 6 lever lock. Learning on youtube.

Uinseann_16 · 18-08-2020 7:08pm

Heckler wrote: »

Nope. They're the levers. So its a 6 lever lock. Learning on youtube.

if the key is double sided could be a 11 lever:pac:

Lock seems low enough quality tbh its not a sealed unit

Heckler · 18-08-2020 7:29pm

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

if the key is double sided could be a 11 lever:pac:

Lock seems low enough quality tbh its not a sealed unit

I'd imagine its not a great lock at but I'd like to figure out whats gone wrong. I think the key isn't catching the talon to move the bolt. Both keys are identical though. Nothing chipped or broken off. Maybe the talon is worn down.

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Gun safe won't open

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