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Masks

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    #32
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Cantona's Collars wrote: »
    They are utterly pointless for 99% of the general public, we've been told time and time again to keep our hands away from our face yet anytime I'm out and see people wearing masks they are constantly fiddling with them and touching their face.
    A mask for someone who is coughing fair enough but for Joe and Josephine Soap picking up a few groceries there's no need.Unless someone comes up and coughs all over your face then you aren't catching anything especially when everyone is staying away from each other.
    I've seen people wearing gloves touching surfaces and then wiping their eyes or at their noses and think gloves are protecting them.

    +1000 on this, the amount of people who don't understand how the gloves actually work until you get them to think about it for a moment


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    #33
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Here's some research into what is the best material for your home-made masks:

    https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus/


    Best-material-fabric-for-making-DIY-masks-to-capture-viruses-750x410.jpg


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    #34
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,278 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    I haven't worn a mask when out and about yet. I've been social distancing, working from home and avoiding unnecessary trips for several weeks. Cannot afford to get infected as I'm a sole carer for a vulnerable person.

    I was in Tesco the other day and I'd say maybe 20% of customers were wearing some form of mask.

    Had I felt forced into using crammed public transport I'd probably have been wearing a mask for some time. OTOH if that was the case I would likely just find a way to not put myself in such a situation.

    In terms of what I have, about 30 x FFP2 and FFP2V disposable masks (technically respirators), never used but many of them are expired, if things get worse I'll start with the FFP2V non expired ones and work from there.

    Also have a Sundstrom respirator and 5 x replacabale P3 filters I won't be wearing that to Tesco unless things get a lot LOT worse.
    0168600D.JPG


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    #35
    Marsden35
    Site Banned Posts: 93 ✭✭Marsden35


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Is it actually virus rated though? Not all of them are, worth a check.. it'll say like 'Type5b' if it is

    To be honest I haven't checked the suit, as that was mostly just to protect clothes from spray. I suspect it's standard stuff. Was not expensive.

    The mask and goggles are top notch. They were more expensive.


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    #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I work directly with patients and only wear a mask if reviewing patient who is query covid-19 or covid-19 positive.


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    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It's now compulusory in Austria to wear masks in supermarkets; you won't get in without one. Some of the Asian countries made it complusory to wear them on public transport months ago. Singapore issued 4 masks per household in January ... we get postcards..

    The authorities here told people that masks don't work.


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    #38
    Marsden35
    Site Banned Posts: 93 ✭✭Marsden35


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's now compulusory in Austria to wear masks in supermarkets; you won't get in without one. Some of the Asian countries made it complusory to wear them on public transport months ago.

    The authorities here told people that masks don't work.

    I suspect part of the reason for telling the general public that masks don't work, is so they're available for front line medical staff. ;)

    As it is there's a shortage. Imagine if you tell the public that masks really work.


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    #39
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Read the WHO & HSE guidelines on masks. Wearing one to the shops is a waste of a mask and money. They have no proven benefits unless you have the Virus or are nursing someone who has the virus.
    Incorrect. There are numerous studies that demonstrate that wearing even a surgical mask correctly mitigates risk of infection. This is a fact. Why would you wear one if you were nursing someone who was infected if they have no benefits in lowering risk? Why would an infected person wear one if they have no proven benefits. Your cocksure statements make zero sense.
    Go sit outside a hospital and watch. You won't see doctors & nurses wearing masks coming out of work & on their journey home. They have been trained & they know masks are of no use in general use.


    From the AMA here with the hospital consultant on the matter.     "I plan to wear masks on my way into work and home starting Wednesday. But I know how to put them on, fit them and take them off so they'll be effective for me, hopefully."

    The single main reason why health authorities in the West have been saying don't wear a mask is because we don't have enough of them to go around for those working in the health services with a far higher exposure risk. That's it. End of.

    And clearly it has worked as people insist on repeating the same contradictory message the same health services have been putting out. Actually it's an interesting insight into how propaganda works and how easily people will accept obviously contradictory information from on high, even in this case where it's most certainly for the positive.

    In places like Taiwan their health services have been saying do wear a mask, to the degree that fines can be imposed for not wearing one in public, because they have enough of them to go around(they were producing ten million of them per day).

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #40
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,278 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The authorities here told people that masks don't work.
    This can be added to the list of things that the authorities will need to be hammered for after the crisis is over.

    Bigger fish to fry though - I suspect that what will happen here is we will get out of this crisis relatively well due to blind luck (e.g. population distribution) and some good management and actions by the authorities. The latter will then be spun spun spun to try to paint the heath service in a good light in an attempt to gloss over several decades worth of shambolic poor management - which has undoubtedly cost the lives of thousands of people, pre Covid-19.

    I'm also going to keep banging the drum about nursing homes and the approach the state takes to elder care. If, as seems likely, we get a very high number of Covid-19 deaths in nursing homes, the chickens will have well and truly come home to roost.


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    #41
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    BrianD3 wrote: »
    In terms of what I have, about 30 x FFP2 and FFP2V disposable masks (technically respirators), never used but many of them are expired, if things get worse I'll start with the FFP2V non expired ones and work from there.

    Also have a Sundstrom respirator and 5 x replacabale P3 filters I won't be wearing that to Tesco unless things get a lot LOT worse.
    0168600D.JPG
    The Sundstrom would reduce your chances of picking up the virus substantially. Such P3 rigouts are what medical experts use in high pathogen zones. On the expiry front P3/2 filiters or masks don't expire as such. They're particulate filters, so only expire if they become clogged up. Unlikely if you're not in construction or other dusty environment like sanding body filler on a car. Activated carbon filters do expire and lose effectiveness pretty quickly as the carbon becomes saturated with time, but they wouldn't be for virus type environments(though would no doubt still filter quite a bit of the air.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #42
    Marsden35
    Site Banned Posts: 93 ✭✭Marsden35


    You'd need to be a moron to not realise the efficacy of specifically rated masks in combating a disease primarily spread through breathing, coughing and sneezing.

    As Wibbs has correctly pointed out, it demonstrates how information from authority is swallowed by so many people.

    But we do rely on a certain amount of ignorance from the public to herd them in the right direction in times of crisis. It would not have been a good idea in a country short on masks, to talk up the efficacy of masks.


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    #43
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,757 ✭✭✭stockshares


    Marsden35 wrote: »
    You'd need to be a moron to not realise the efficacy of specifically rated masks in combating a disease primarily spread through breathing, coughing and sneezing.

    As Wibbs has correctly pointed out, it demonstrates how information from authority is swallowed by so many people.

    But we do rely on a certain amount of ignorance from the public to herd them in the right direction in times of crisis. It would not have been a good idea in a country short on masks, to talk up the efficacy of masks.

    This was just posted on the main thread by Caveat Emptor.
    I think priority should be given to Health care workers though.


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    #44
    dublin99
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭dublin99


    I bought a box of 10 disposable ffp3 masks last December for less than 8 pounds from Amazon for a trip to Asia, in view of the protests and danger of pepper spray/tear gas in Hong Kong. I still have a few of them.

    I bought some surgical masks in Taiwan in January because of the pollution.

    I got some 3M surgical masks from Boots and disposable ffp2s in January/February to send to Asia, but postal service was unreliable and courier was outrageously expensive.

    I would wear one now if travelling by public transport or in a busy supermarket. I am used to it and having seen the way the spread was limited in densely populated cities like Macau and Hong Kong with everyone wearing a mask, I would say the risk is at least reduced.

    The spare ones will probably go to a relative who works in A&E in a large London Hospital. No masks are available and he has been bringing them from home. He has also been asked to volunteer to work at the Nightingale (the Excel).


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    #45
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Marsden35 wrote: »
    I've got a full hazmat setup due to having spray painted cars in the past.

    So far I've felt it's a bit overkill to go out like that.

    This get-up must be worth a fortune just now.
    The price gouging online and off for such things has been ridiculous. I got this half face job last year for a completely different reason, cost me 20-25 quid delivered.

    507638.JPG

    Now the same masks are going for 120 plus quid on ebay and the like. If you can get one. As it turned out(though no foresight on my part) that's actually a very good one for pox prevention purposes. It's more compact than similar and more comfortable and has a handy way to check for good fit and seal. And yep I can confirm it will seal with a tight beard. If I were to close the filters I'd turn blue in short order. :D And it's much easier and safer to clean because the filters aren't exposed. One major issue with such masks are they give zero protection to others if the wearer is infected as the exhaled air is unflitered.

    Now I wouldn't wear one to the shops. Yet. But if I had to take public transport or be in a small enclosed space with lots of people, then damn right I would. I do wear the surgical type when I go out. A) they are protective because I know how to wear and use one and more B) because I don't want to risk infecting someone else. I tend to be asymptomatic with the usual "bugs" that go around. EG the only flu I've ever obviously caught in my life was of the swine variety and I brushed that off over a weekend. I am quite sure I've infected others with bugs down the years when I felt fine or a "bit tired"(I'm pretty sure I gave that swine flu to an ex). Now this current dose could go against type and put me in a pine box in a few days, but it would kill me if I thought I'd risked giving it to someone else because I felt OK.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #46
    Marsden35
    Site Banned Posts: 93 ✭✭Marsden35


    stockshares wrote: »
    This was just posted on the main thread by Caveat Emptor.
    I think priority should be given to Health care workers though.

    Yeah, just seen it.

    It's pretty obvious when you think about it. But in our circumstances, a necessary white lie. Whereas many of the Asian countries already have a culture of wearing masks so their supply lines were fine and the public was told to wear them.


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    #47
    Kenjataimu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Kenjataimu


    Yes: homemade
    I saw this video yesterday







    Also saw this on how to make a homemade mask

    https://m.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?height=400&width=224&href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fodiviofficial%2Fvideos%2F807790806395450%2F



    Not sure these vids are helpful or not tbh.
    A lot of people arguing for and against.


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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Marsden35 wrote: »
    I suspect part of the reason for telling the general public that masks don't work, is so they're available for front line medical staff. ;)

    As it is there's a shortage. Imagine if you tell the public that masks really work.
    Yes, that's the reason. However telling well-intentioned lies is a great way to sow confusion & distrust. People will start to second guess the guidelines. At some point we will have enough and will start telling people to wear them in crowded spaces. They will say 'nah, they don't work'.

    This could have been avoided if we had a national stockpile of masks and PPE by default. Why didn't we ? We should have increased local production in January, and implemented price-freezes, per-customer unit limits etc.

    The PPE supplies we are flying in from China now (late March!) is absolute junk. Most of it will be defective.


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    #49
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Kenjataimu wrote: »
    I saw this video yesterday







    Also saw this on how to make a homemade mask

    https://m.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?height=400&width=224&href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fodiviofficial%2Fvideos%2F807790806395450%2F



    Not sure these vids are helpful or not tbh.
    A lot of people arguing for and against.
    Well the Czechs have seen a day on day reduction in the numbers. That vid and drive to make masks a given when out and about should be applied everywhere this virus has spread.

    I mean on the one hand we're told to cough into a tissue, or worse case into the crook of your elbow to lower the risk of spread, yet a tissue/elbow actually stuck on your face is useless? Jesus. :rolleyes:

    Look I know why they had to come out with it and hopefully it did leave more PPE for those on the front lines of this, but when these shipments of masks from China dial down that need this country - and the HSE has to lead in this and backtrack - must get mask wearing a societal given until a vaccine surfaces.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #50
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The PPE supplies we are flying in from China now (late March!) is absolute junk. Most of it will be defective.
    A) we don't know that and B) masks aren't rocket surgery to make.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wibbs wrote: »
    A) we don't know that and B) masks aren't rocket surgery to make.
    Just wait and see. China has been sending junk to multiple countries. Defective masks/PPE/tests. Give it a few days, you'll find out these "historic flights" have been full of useless junk also.


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    #52
    PmMeUrDogs
    Registered Users Posts: 703 ✭✭✭PmMeUrDogs


    Yes: other
    The amount of posts I see from people saying masks are useless and that the general public won't use them correctly is ridiculous.



    They are obviously somewhat effective, given that every nurse and doctor in the country are wearing them - they wouldn't need to wear them if they're ineffective.

    As for the general public not using them correctly - plenty of us are. Put it on, don't touch your face, remove and dispose of it within 30 minutes or so. Plenty of time to quickly grab essentials and get home, and they're not uncomfortable so I don't touch my face. Pretty simple to use them correctly.


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    #53
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes, that's the reason. However telling well-intentioned lies is a great way to sow confusion & distrust. People will start to second guess the guidelines. At some point we will have enough and will start telling people to wear them in crowded spaces. They will say 'nah, they don't work'.
    Check out this thread or other threads any time the subject of masks comes up. The posts with the most "thanks" are those that parrot the HSE guidelines that say they're pointless. Even when those very guidelines are so obviously contradictory in the same paragraph in plain english. Critical thinking is a subject that should really be taught at school, because it's quite scary how few enough apply it. This has been evident throughout history.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #54
    lillycakes2
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭lillycakes2


    i think we sud all be wearing masks , if out, better than not


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    #55
    Marsden35
    Site Banned Posts: 93 ✭✭Marsden35


    WHO now being asked about masks on a livestream.......still saying not to wear masks by well individuals only if you're "sick".

    Problem is, we don't know who is unwell as this disease can be asymptomatic.

    Oh, now basically admitting it was also to protect supply lines to front line medical workers.


    A mixed message covering up for the fact it was solely to protect supply lines as we suspected.


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    #56
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    If I wear a mask and cough it will massively reduce the amount of virus laden droplets in the air in front of me. If you also wear a mask and I cough it will further reduce the virus laden droplets in the air getting through to your mouth and nostrils. These are facts. That these blindingly bloody obvious facts needs to be pointed out beggars belief and again makes me more worried about those worse viruses out there; stupidity and blind compliance.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #57
    deisedevil
    Registered Users Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    Yes: surgical
    BrianD3 wrote: »
    This can be added to the list of things that the authorities will need to be hammered for after the crisis is over.

    Bigger fish to fry though - I suspect that what will happen here is we will get out of this crisis relatively well due to blind luck (e.g. population distribution) and some good management and actions by the authorities. The latter will then be spun spun spun to try to paint the heath service in a good light in an attempt to gloss over several decades worth of shambolic poor management - which has undoubtedly cost the lives of thousands of people, pre Covid-19.

    I'm also going to keep banging the drum about nursing homes and the approach the state takes to elder care. If, as seems likely, we get a very high number of Covid-19 deaths in nursing homes, the chickens will have well and truly come home to roost.

    The treatment of nursing homes from early on has been nothing short of complete and utter incompetence.


  • Options
    #58
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Marsden35 wrote: »
    Oh, now basically admitting it was also to protect supply lines to front line medical workers.
    Understandable, though any measures that reduce community spread will protect medical workers in the medium and long term.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Options
    #59
    Class MayDresser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 395 ✭✭Class MayDresser


    Wibbs wrote: »
    If I wear a mask and cough it will massively reduce the amount of virus laden droplets in the air in front of me. If you also wear a mask and I cough it will further reduce the virus laden droplets in the air getting through to your mouth and nostrils. These are facts. That these blindingly bloody obvious facts needs to be pointed out beggars belief and again makes me more worried about those worse viruses out there; stupidity and blind compliance.

    There's no doubting these masks reduce if not negate any transmissions, but there's a third reason these facts are being ignored and has nothing to do with stupidity or blind compliance and that's availability.
    I'd be wearing one if I could get my hands on them simple as that. And no, I'm not going to be gouged before anyone calls me a cheapskate, answer to that is I'll remain indoors.


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    #60
    Jurgen Klopp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭Jurgen Klopp


    deisedevil wrote: »
    The treatment of nursing homes from early on has been nothing short of complete and utter incompetence.

    Not just the treatment of homes by the state but by the group's and individuals who own these homes.

    Nursing homes of the private variety were notorious amongst healthcare workers before this pandemic. They never had enough supplies of gloves and masks and the few they had they barely ever gave out cause it affected profit margins. An MRSA breakout was about teh best time they'd let staff mask and glove up and I'd say that's because its such a bloody obvious infection to get they wouldn't get away with it

    I've seen people shocked on here posting how shocked they were to visit relatives in homes by standing outside and seeing the carers inside with the resident with no gloves or mask's, that's nothing new, it's just normal practise being exposed and I can tell you a lot of these owners wont be too concerned with staff and residents catching this as it's a nice little one to say ah sure we did all we could but as we've seen worldwide its impossible to contain 100%

    That's why you've seen nursing homes completely abandoned by staff in the likes of Spain too, I'd bet staff there were expected to spend their day coming in contact with residents without any PPE nevermind appropriate standards

    Gonna see similar here unless the HSE starts the supplying here, the greedy fcukers of owners wont mind then as it won't be them shelling out


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    #61
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Class MayDresser wrote: »
    There's no doubting these masks reduce if not negate any transmissions, but there's a third reason these facts are being ignored and has nothing to do with stupidity or blind compliance and that's availability.
    I'd be wearing one if I could get my hands on them simple as that. And no, I'm not going to be gouged before anyone calls me a cheapskate, answer to that is I'll remain indoors.
    Oh god yeah CM, that is a major factor in it. I was talking about those who blindly follow obviously contradictory instruction from on high and parrot it as True Fact(tm).

    We need as a nation to follow the Czech example outlined in the video a few posts back. Including the grassroots level of making our own masks at home if we can. It would also help bring us more together in a common fight against a common enemy.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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