Masks

weldoninhio · 24-05-2020 1:16pm

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Wibbs wrote: »

You do comprehend that the lockdown and our other (half) measures meant we got the current results we have, right? Oh and those numbers are not good at all given our existing advantageous factors. Barely been touched my arse. :rolleyes: We have notably higher infections and dead than those who did a good job at containing this virus. Yes there are plenty of stupid chicken littles, but there are also plenty of equally stupid naysayers.

The Irish govt and Tony Holohan sent sick elderly people back to care homes, from hospital, without testing them. The HSE refused to test elderly people in care homes. That’s the reason so many of them died. Not people on the street refusing to socially distance, not people refusing to wear masks. The stats fully back that up. If you are under 65, you are more likely to die in a car crash than of Covid-19.

Boggles · 24-05-2020 1:38pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

1600+ died WITH Covid-19, not necessarily OF Covid-19. Over 60% of those deaths were in nursing homes. Over 91% of the totals deaths were over 65s. The most vulnerable of society, who were hung out to dry by the govt and Tony Holohan.

Do they not count, are they not humans?

weldoninhio wrote: »

From the ages of 0-44, there were 17 deaths in three months. 17!! According to RTÉ, the average road traffic deaths in Ireland for 2020 is 16 PER MONTH!!!

Oh yes false equivalency and whataboutery.

But But But Dolphins, they kill people too, we don't bring in restrictions for Dolphins, something, something, boring, yawn!

SleetAndSnow · 24-05-2020 1:42pm

No: other

weldoninhio wrote: »

1600+ died WITH Covid-19, not necessarily OF Covid-19. Over 60% of those deaths were in nursing homes. Over 91% of the totals deaths were over 65s. The most vulnerable of society, who were hung out to dry by the govt and Tony Holohan.

From the ages of 0-44, there were 17 deaths in three months. 17!! According to RTÉ, the average road traffic deaths in Ireland for 2020 is 16 PER MONTH!!! We shafted the economy for no reason. We should have coccooned the old and let the rest get on with it.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcases/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=COVID-19%20Insights%20Volume1%20WE%2015May2020

Yeah there were 17 deaths in that age group, but there was many more people who got a serious dose of it, were in ICU, suffered through the disease and survived it. Its just been in the news of 3 children fighting a rare inflammatory condition most likely due to covid. Just because they didn't die doesn't mean that people aren't suffering and possibly getting life-long reprocussions.

weldoninhio · 24-05-2020 1:43pm

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Boggles wrote: »

Do they not count, are they not humans?

Oh yes false equivalency and whataboutery.

But But But Dolphins, they kill people too, we don't bring in restrictions for Dolphins, something, something, boring, yawn!

I’ve literally said they were hung out to dry. If proper measures had been put into place a lot of those deaths could have been prevented.

We are strangling the economy for no reason.

Boggles · 24-05-2020 1:47pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

We are strangling the economy for no reason.

Your false equivalency is with figures obtained during restrictions.

What model have you seen or are you using for an alternative method and what is the projected hospitalization and Death toll from that?

Just saying Denmark isn't an answer.

weldoninhio · 24-05-2020 1:49pm

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Boggles wrote: »

Your false equivalency is with figures obtained during restrictions.

What model have you seen or are you using for an alternative method and what is the projected hospitalization and Death toll from that?

Just saying Denmark isn't an answer.

I’m not revealing my model, same as the Govt, who have saved us from 1,000,000* deaths according to their model.

*made up a number, same as Govt have.

Boggles · 24-05-2020 1:51pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

I’m not revealing my model, same as the Govt, who have saved us from 1,000,000* deaths according to their model.

*made up a number, same as Govt have.

So you are using Edgelord modelling?

It's old and boring lad, give it up FFS.

Seanergy · 24-05-2020 1:52pm

Yes: valved

weldoninhio wrote: »

Well going by Denmarks example. Nothing.

Take out nursing homes, DP centres, Traveller and Roma clusters and Ireland has barely been touched by Covid-19. But you still have the chicken littles who believe the country would be decimated if not for “lockdown”.

One should not merge nursing homes with the rest of those groups.

The vulnerable resident's in nursing homes did not go out and catch the virus and return with it and spread it. The virus was brought into their place of residence by visitor's, mainly unmasked HCW's.

Now might be a excellent time to say I will not and do not blame HCW's for this. I have heard numerous reports of HSE employee's taking personally owned masks away and off staff and nurses in nursing homes pre change in poilcy(April22nd). The spread of covid-19 in nursing homes was because of poor HSE mask supply and poor HSE mask policy, plain and simple.

Direct Provision centres, Traveller and Roma groups all had oppotunites to go out and bring the virus back into thier groups. These groups were always high risk due to volume of air per person ratio.

Some will argue those groups would also be high risk due to a lack of cleansiness or poor education but that is secondary and also a sterotypical approach.

IMHO majority of traveller accomdation trumps the majority of non traveller homes when it comes to hygiene. This whole virus thing is all about the air we share, fomite route is secondary.

You still have the cocky hen's that believe we can bull on without masking up.

Seanergy · 24-05-2020 2:07pm

Yes: valved

weldoninhio wrote: »

The most vulnerable of society, who were hung out to dry by the govt and Tony Holohan.

We should have coccooned the old and let the rest get on with it.

The economy was hung out to dry by GOV and Tony Holohan.

The vulnerable in society were hung out to dry by poor HSE mask supply and poor HSE mask policy.

The vulnerable will continue to be targeted if we all do not take personal responsibility for our breath.

Stop being a nob put a mask on your gob.

Boggles · 24-05-2020 2:56pm

Seanergy wrote: »

The economy was hung out to dry by GOV and Tony Holohan.

The economy wasn't hung on to dry, it was hibernated on purpose, pandemic response 101.

It's a far better and cheaper option than the potential alternative.

They have got more wrong than right IMO, but they were pretty spot on with their emergency response when it came to the economy TBF.

That said, it was the "easy" bit, opening back up is the hard bit.

Seanergy · 24-05-2020 4:23pm

Yes: valved

Boggles wrote: »

The economy wasn't hung on to dry, it was hibernated on purpose, pandemic response 101.

It's a far better and cheaper option than the potential alternative.

They have got more wrong than right IMO, but they were pretty spot on with their emergency response when it came to the economy TBF.

That said, it was the "easy" bit, opening back up is the hard bit.

Welldonepinochio winds me up so much I pump out some replies a bit fiery

Indeed it's easier for an Anaesthetist to put someone asleep, keeping them alive and bringing them out from under is the more difficult part.

Speed with which economy was shut down was fairly decent TBH. Duration has been drawn out without a real plan and as a result public trust and compliance are skirting on low, this has consequences of it's own that can have a grave impact when the 2nd wave hits.

According to the WHO "communication expertise has become as essential to outbreak control as epidemiological training and laboratory analysis. The overriding goal for outbreak communication is to communicate with the public in ways that build, maintain or restore trust."

Transparency and nothing short of absolute brutal honesty is needed by the HSE NPHET and State right now regarding masks. An admittance needs to be given to the public so that we can all team together to understand how the virus spreads and how we can all play our part in reducing it's spread and thus be ready for the 2nd wave.

Anything short is just wishful thinking. I am of the opinion economy should remain shut until the public understands as to why they are to wear masks in closed air spces and around others.

McGiver · 24-05-2020 6:31pm

No: I don't care enough

cnocbui wrote: »

People who thought the Earth was spherical were all Trolls once. Copernicus and Galileo were Trolls.

No, they weren't. They provided scientific rational evidence for their theories. There was no scientific consensus on flat earth or the geocentric model. Zero. It was based on superstition and belief.
Comparing Middle ages situation, where superstitions were challenged by early scientific method, to baseless criticism of masks effectiveness supported by studies and other evidence in 21st century is... Ridiculous?

And evidence on AGW is so massive, where do I even start....anyway off topic.

Seanergy · 24-05-2020 6:53pm

Yes: valved

Councillor claims nurses at Fermoy Community Hospital have to buy their own face masks.

Ive had enough of this HSE bull.

The condescending nature of the first statement below projects that the HSE believe that nurses are putting on masks for psychological reasons.

"The HSE stated that they don't HAVE to wear masks but they want to for their own protection."

"The current guidance on the use of PPE does not recommend the use of surgical facemasks or other PPE unless a health care worker is caring for someone who is confirmed or suspected to have Covid-19.

The HSE are truly stuck in putting on a mask to protect the wearer mentality.

Not sure if I posted about this on here but last week I had an agency nurse inform me that the HSE give her 5 masks for a shift in a nursing home. Guidance is to change mask every 20 mins which would equate to about 30+masks a shift.

If we don't get it right in the nursing homes before the 2nd wave hits, it will be too late for some.

McGiver · 24-05-2020 7:28pm

No: I don't care enough

Markomlm wrote: »

Do you have like shares in a mask manufacturing company or something?

No, I don't.

In fact, from the beginning of the epidemic in Europe, I had strongly supported DIY cloth masks approach as opposed to government organised distribution of surgical masks, because:

1. It's cheaper
2. It's more realistic
3. It's faster to deploy

This is the solution recommended by the US CDC as you may know.

#masks4all #DIYmasks.ie

McGiver · 24-05-2020 7:42pm

No: I don't care enough

weldoninhio wrote: »

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/2nd-covid-19-wave-very-unlikely-in-denmark-expert-says

Ireland’s R0 is already well below Denmark’s. Currently R0.4. We need to stop the lockdown now.

Yes. Stop the lockdown. And everyone masks indoors. You know like in Germany, Austria or Czechia.

Current R0 says nothing about what it will be like when the society goes back to normal. What it has to do with Denmark by the way?

McGiver · 24-05-2020 7:43pm

No: I don't care enough

weldoninhio wrote: »

I’ve literally said they were hung out to dry. If proper measures had been put into place a lot of those deaths could have been prevented.

We are strangling the economy for no reason.

We agree on that.

The difference between us that we say - closed borders, quarantine AND masks should have been the best measures.

stephenjmcd · 24-05-2020 7:49pm

McGiver wrote: »

Yes. Stop the lockdown. And everyone masks indoors. You know like in Germany, Austria or Czechia.

Current R0 says nothing about what it will be like when the society goes back to normal. What it has to do with Denmark by the way?

He's making a comparison against a country that's been relaxing restrictions for a month, has no mask wearing policy and social distance is 1 metre. And also hasn't seen any increase in cases since relaxing measures, all stats on the downward trend still.

It's a worthwhile comparison, likewise with other countries as you've mentioned. We need to look at them all.

Nobody says stop the lockdown now, phases need to be merged and not dragged out but that's for the relaxation thread

McGiver · 24-05-2020 7:58pm

No: I don't care enough

stephenjmcd wrote: »

He's making a comparison against a country that's been relaxing restrictions for a month, has no mask wearing policy and social distance is 1 metre. And also hasn't seen any increase in cases since relaxing measures, all stats on the downward trend still.

It's a worthwhile comparison, likewise with other countries as you've mentioned. We need to look at them all.

Nobody says stop the lockdown now, phases need to be merged and not dragged out but that's for the relaxation thread

Do they have closed borders? They did - fully, just like Norway and Czechia. Ireland never did.

Do they test and/or quarantine people coming from the abroad? Norway, Czechia do. Ireland doesn't and effectively won't.

How is their testing level per capita? I don't have details.

Any other restrictions? Again, I don't have details.

Also Denmark's cases per capita is much lower than Ireland's (less than half) so you can argue they can afford a more liberal approach.

stephenjmcd · 24-05-2020 8:02pm

McGiver wrote: »

Do they have closed borders? They did - fully, just like Norway and Czechia. Ireland never did.

Do they test and/or quarantine people coming from the abroad? Norway, Czechia do. Ireland doesn't and effectively won't.

How is their testing level per capita? I don't have details.

Any other restrictions? Again, I don't have details.

Also Denmark's cases per capita is much lower than Ireland's (less than half) so you can argue they cannot afford more liberal approach.

Again this is for the relaxation thread, borders have been discussed lots of times, the amount of movement coming into Ireland since restrictions has been minimal.

Again can argue the toss over test and quarantine, when Europe opens up there wont be anywhere doing it. Should have been done earlier here but wasn't.

Anyway all of this is for another thread. I wont be replying on this here any further as it's for another thread. Was only making the point as to what Denmark had to do with this

McGiver · 24-05-2020 8:09pm

No: I don't care enough

weldoninhio wrote: »

If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

WHEN and how TO USE MASKS. Jesus wept. It’s literally on their website.

OK. The page deals with PPE not with masks, especially DIY.

Can you explain this then?

CANADA CDC
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/prevention-risks/about-non-medical-masks-face-coverings.html

US CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

ECDC
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/infographic-using-face-masks-community

MrDavid1976 · 24-05-2020 8:21pm

McGiver wrote: »

OK. The page deals with PPE not with masks, especially DIY.

Can you explain this then?

CANADA CDC
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/prevention-risks/about-non-medical-masks-face-coverings.html

US CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

ECDC
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/infographic-using-face-masks-community

If it means wearing a mask (homemade or one use) on transportation and indoors where needed as the price to open things up then absolutely.

weldoninhio · 24-05-2020 8:23pm

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

McGiver wrote: »

Do they have closed borders? They did - fully, just like Norway and Czechia. Ireland never did.

Do they test and/or quarantine people coming from the abroad? Norway, Czechia do. Ireland doesn't and effectively won't.

How is their testing level per capita? I don't have details.

Any other restrictions? Again, I don't have details.

Also Denmark's cases per capita is much lower than Ireland's (less than half) so you can argue they can afford a more liberal approach.

Your last paragraph is nonsense. Does the virus know the cases per capita and attack based on that?? No.

McGiver · 24-05-2020 8:25pm

No: I don't care enough

weldoninhio wrote: »

Your last paragraph is nonsense. Does the virus know the cases per capita and attack based on that?? No.

Ah no, just that the reader didn't understand the argument.

If my cases per capita are lower along with a lower R0, I can be bolder with reducing the restrictions.

Care to respond to the other points?

weldoninhio · 24-05-2020 8:28pm

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

McGiver wrote: »

Ah no, just that the reader didn't understand the argument.

If my cases per capita are lower along with a lower R0, I can be bolder with reducing the restrictions.

Care to respond to the other points?

You aren’t worth explaining it to. You have blinkers on. You literally couldn’t understand a WHO page entitled “When and How to wear a mask” and claimed it was about PPE hahahaha. I shan't be replying to you again.

Seanergy · 24-05-2020 8:53pm

Yes: valved

weldoninhio wrote: »

You aren’t worth explaining it to. You have blinkers on. You literally couldn’t understand a WHO page entitled “When and How to wear a mask” and claimed it was about PPE hahahaha. I shan't be replying to you again.

Is push down politics your only trick?

Are just WHO loyal or do you have repssect for the ECDC?

Is it 50/50 or do you have a preference for the WHO?

Who are you to decide someone's worth?

McGiver · 24-05-2020 9:02pm

No: I don't care enough

weldoninhio wrote: »

You aren’t worth explaining it to. You have blinkers on. You literally couldn’t understand a WHO page entitled “When and How to wear a mask” and claimed it was about PPE hahahaha. I shan't be replying to you again.

It's you who can't read properly.

There's a guidance document on the same WHO page.
https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1274280/retrieve

In this document medical masks are defined as surgical or procedure masks that are flat or pleated (some are shaped like cups); they are affixed to the head with straps.

So the web page is talking only PPE, not cloth face masks. As I said.

Then the document says:

Wearing a medical mask is one of the prevention measures that can limit the spread of certain respiratory viral diseases, including COVID-19.

In the Community settings section it says:

Studies of influenza, influenza-like illness, and human
coronaviruses provide evidence that the use of a medical
mask can prevent the spread of infectious droplets from an infected person to someone else and potential contamination of the environment by these droplets.

Clearly confirms that masks prevent spread.

The WHO doesn't seem to recommend masks as a protective measure for the wearer of the mask specifically. Which is highly problematic - given that it works in health care settings, but let's say we accept their argument. But the WHO doesn't say the mask doesn't protect the community from the potential infection wearer of the mask - in fact it clearly confirms that it prevents the spread.

Also, you still conveniently haven't responded why multiple CDCs recommended masks.

Seanergy · 24-05-2020 10:12pm

Yes: valved

I have included 3 screenshots below.

The 1st is from The National Pandemic Influenza Expert Group from 2009 which clearly cites that droplets can be spread from talking.

The second is from the main section of the HSE website 2020 which omits to mention talking as a form of transmission.

The third is from The National Pandemic Influenza Expert Group from 2009 offering facemask advice but fails to mention that talking patients should wear facemasks.

Can anyone share a reference to the HSE citing covid-19 droplet transmission from talking? I can't recall any offical advice/posters metioning talking as a form of transmission.

The National Pandemic Influenza Expert Group existed between 1999-2010. Brian Cowen founded it as Minsiter for Health in 1999, Micheál Martin oversaw it from (2000-2004) and Mary Harney disbandoned it in 2010.

Away With The Fairies · 24-05-2020 10:27pm

Yes: valved

I think the document for workplaces to reopen mentioned spread by talking.

Away With The Fairies · 24-05-2020 10:31pm

Yes: valved

Found it, while not HSE, it's from government but they're all the same useless shower.

Page 4 mentions this thing is spread when someone speaks.

2u2me · 24-05-2020 10:47pm

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Page 4 mentions this thing is spread when someone speaks.

Definitely some people are bigger 'spitters' than others!

Masks

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