3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

A point that seems to be missed in these conversations is just how much we under spend on defence in this country.

Country Population GDP (19) Defence (19) % of GDP
Finland 5.5m 269bn 3.1bn 1.15%
Sweden 9.6m 528bn 5.77bn 1.09%
Austria 8.726m 447bn 3.38bn 0.75%
Switzerland 8m 715bn 5.39bn 0.75%
Malta 500k 14bn 64.7m 0.46%
Ireland 4.6m 384bn 870m 0.22%


These are all the European neutral countries. We spend less than half what Malta spend on defence as a percentage of our GDP!!!!!! That is ridiculous, no matter what way you try to cut it.

The idea that the Irish defence budget is in any way detracting from the health budget is laughable, as is the idea that scrapping the DF and putting that money into the Health department will make any difference to the health department. The 2020 health budget is 17.4bn!! the defence budget is 5% of the health budget. Even doubling the defence budget would barely make a dent in the annual operation of the health department.

That much extra cash floating around the defence department could completely change the DF though, through improved equipment, facilities and pay. Whether you agree that we should as a nation have an army, navy or air corps, all neutral countries should be able to mount a meaningful defence of the country even doubling our defence budget would barely bring us in line with that requirement.

And Widdensushi, please don't present the usual crap response by presenting a false dilemma by bringing Russia into the argument against what I've said. There are very few countries in the world that could defend themselves against Russia, China or the USA. That doesn't mean there aren't other threats in the world that we should be able to react to.

This vessel would benefit the DF greatly in the ability to transport equipment and stores to areas of operation, a task currently outsourced to shipping companies. It would also be used for fisheries, drug interdiction, customs checks, humanitarian aid, basically any of the tasks that the OPVs can handle, plus it increases the abilities of the DF greatly. It's time to stop arguing about whether this type of vessel is needed and just order the bloody thing already.

Another point to remember is that in Irish terms, gdp comparisons are meaningless...(basically ,strip out multinational assets ect )
Even gnp figures aren't great ,
Google "leprechaun economics " ..it's a real thing ..
Either way we spend a relatively large amount on health for a poor return ,
And very little on military and defence ...

Markcheese wrote: »

Another point to remember is that in Irish terms, gdp comparisons are meaningless...(basically ,strip out multinational assets ect )
Even gnp figures aren't great ,
Google "leprechaun economics " ..it's a real thing ..
Either way we spend a relatively large amount on health for a poor return ,
And very little on military and defence ...

Modified GNI has been adopted by the Irish government and its agencies as a calculation more reflective of Ireland's "real" economy. In fact some argue its too conservative.

In any case, MGNI for 2019 was €202 billion. And so our current military spending is a paltry 0.48% of this already lean estimate.

Imagine what could be achieved spending 2%, or €4.04 billion to provide the State with a ultra modern defence force, comprehensive air and sea protection including the EEZ, a full time standing force of perhaps 15,000 with excellent prospects and training, comfortable accommodation for personnel and families at home and on duty and most importantly a living salary and career income benchmarked against the best professional armed forces in the World.

We could also expand the Reserve Defence Force, encouraging persons with high tech skills to serve and remain on lifetime standby. Units could be set up in our third level institutions as an ROTC, offering a choice to serve the nation for a time and to learn amazing life skills, mentoring, personal and life development as young people getting ready to enter the workforce - maybe deciding to choose the DF after getting a taste.

All this would put the DF at the heart of our Community, would equip the State for emergency situations and to aid less well off places around the World as well as to assist Irish people and interests all over the globe when they need support or evacuation. Also to place our DF personnel in numbers supporting UN and EU missions in further afield places and with greater challenges, such as blue water piracy deployments, humanitarian demilitarised zones and no fly zones etc.

All this is the return in investment some people ask so cynically about.

andrewfaulk wrote: »

So to lighten things up a bit in here.. IF we do get a MPV, what are the chances of getting a few(maybe 4) CB90s, so it could deploy with 1 or 2 landing vessels as an addition to the RHIBs

There's no IF, the MPV will happen, it's just a matter of when if finally crawls out of procurement. As to what it might have, it depends on what design we actually go with, for example that Vard design that floated sometime ago (and looked like it was spec'd for us) had 2 LCP's in the design.


It's a waiting game to see what will come out for tender.

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'm just posting this here because I know its a well read thread -

DF press office has posted a public notice of a dawn exercise taking place at Poolbeg, on the south side of Dublin Port at dawn tomorrow. It appears to be a boat assault and beach defence exercise with helicopter support. The notice warns of fast boats, low flying helicopters and pyrotechnics being deployed.

Anyone in that locale could see quite a show between 6 and 9am

Interesting, when was the last time they did something like that in Dublin?

I seen the notice on Facebook, going by the pictures they have up they seam to have done it already in poolbeg. I wonder why they gave a heads up as it could draw a crowd which I am sure they don't want

donvito99 wrote: »

Well I imagine it is to avoid half of Sandymount ringing Irishtown Garda Station to report an invasion.

I believe also that there is a statutory requirment to advertise shoots in the likes of the Glen, so maybe there is a similar requirement when doing such an exercise off piste, even with no live fire involved.

They should have told no one it would have being hilarious to listen to breakfast radio tomorrow morning

Just a little Brexit preparation!

Markcheese wrote: »

Watched them doing something similar in cork harbour a couple of years ago , most people didn't bat an eye ..

They do that fairly regularly at Fort Davis.

roadmaster wrote: »

i see on there twiiter account it was for a PNCOs course

Good stuff. Hope they post a video on the DF website!

sparky42 wrote: »

They do that fairly regularly at Fort Davis.

Yup , I was up on the headland at fort camden looking out over the harbour , wondering what a slightly sinister large rib full of black clad people was doing hanging about ,when they made a bee line for fort davis ...cue lots of explosions -gunfire and a helicopter ...

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Anybody know how many were deployed? Are we looking at a company sized attacking force and a similar sized defending? Shame they didn't use the pc9's to lash off a few rockets as well.

we didnt buy those unguided rockets to fire them.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Well certainly not in Dublin city centre anyway

Can you imagine a couple of rockets going astray at fort davis ? And whitegate refinery going up in smoke ...

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Anybody know how many were deployed? Are we looking at a company sized attacking force and a similar sized defending? Shame they didn't use the pc9's to lash off a few rockets as well.

It was from a promotion course, so probably no more than a Platoon plus.

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I remember watching the Dutch Army conducting a seaborne landing on Scheveningen beach around 1998 or so. They were showing off their new MRV which was an assault capable ship cum hospital ship cum command and control centre. They landed around 2000 men backed up by parachutists and Apache helicopters firing onto the beach (blanks). Really interesting. Thought the affair at the Pigeon House might have been a bit more ambitious.

you expected an exercise involving a whole brigade?