3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Widdensushi

Dohvolle wrote: »

Theirs actually have larger crews than ours, they just don't all go to sea together.

The jura class have a compliment of 35, it would be so much cheaper to run, maintain a couple of that size, you are left then wondering if the fishery patrols are covered what the current fleet offer other than high running costs , a couple of bigger vessels would then make sense to cover the other duties, foreign aid etc.

donvito99

Widdensushi wrote: »

The jura class have a compliment of 35, it would be so much cheaper to run, maintain a couple of that size, you are left then wondering if the fishery patrols are covered what the current fleet offer other than high running costs , a couple of bigger vessels would then make sense to cover the other duties, foreign aid etc.

The P60s only have 9 more crew according to Wikipedia, hardly an enormous saving. And with 9 fewer crew, just how enduring and effective is an ancient class of OPV like the Jura going to be?

Widdensushi

donvito99 wrote: »

The P60s only have 9 more crew according to Wikipedia, hardly an enormous saving. And with 9 fewer crew, just how enduring and effective is an ancient class of OPV like the Jura going to be?

I thought they were sixty odd crew? I am not saying the jura class exactly, just that a smaller class of vessel would be suitable for most of their duties and offer better value.

Dohvolle

Widdensushi wrote: »

The jura class have a compliment of 35, it would be so much cheaper to run, maintain a couple of that size, you are left then wondering if the fishery patrols are covered what the current fleet offer other than high running costs , a couple of bigger vessels would then make sense to cover the other duties, foreign aid etc.

Jura is a single role Fishery Protection vessel. It has no ability to get involved in anything requiring much more than shouting at someone with a loudhailer. The SFPA are not a navy, their staff are unarmed, even if their ships are mostly grey.

Irish Naval vessels have fishery protection as just one of their tasks. But they are Naval vessels first and foremost, and to operate as such they require a larger crew.

Dohvolle

Widdensushi wrote: »

I thought they were sixty odd crew? I am not saying the jura class exactly, just that a smaller class of vessel would be suitable for most of their duties and offer better value.

Value?
What duties exactly do the Naval service do that could be achieved with a small vessel like this?

donvito99

Dohvolle wrote: »

Jura is a single role Fishery Protection vessel. It has no ability to get involved in anything requiring much more than shouting at someone with a loudhailer. The SFPA are not a navy, their staff are unarmed, even if their ships are mostly grey.

Irish Naval vessels have fishery protection as just one of their tasks. But they are Naval vessels first and foremost, and to operate as such they require a larger crew.

Dohvolle wrote: »

Value?
What duties exactly do the Naval service do that could be achieved with a small vessel like this?

What exactly can the P60s do that something like a Jura/Island Class with a 40mm can't do?

sparky42

Widdensushi wrote: »

I thought they were sixty odd crew? I am not saying the jura class exactly, just that a smaller class of vessel would be suitable for most of their duties and offer better value.

Nope, not even Eithne has such a large crew I think, don’t even think they hit such numbers when they were deployed to the Med and had extra medical staff. The P60s are the size they are as the Navy has the position that anything smaller than that will face difficulties operating off the West Coast, and given that we had smaller hulls in operation until only a few years ago (the P20s) they should have a reasonable knowledge base to make that choice.

In reality the P60s are as cheap as you can reasonably get for OPV duties being vastly cheaper than the Rivers (for many reasons of course).

As I said leave aside the Peacocks as they need to be replaced with “something” we already have 6 OPVs that are fully designed for our waters and capable of whatever is needed, going smaller doesn’t make sense.

sparky42

donvito99 wrote: »

What exactly can the P60s do that something like a Jura/Island Class with a 40mm can't do?

Do you think with such a small crew a Jura/Island class could do over the horizon inspections like the Indo recently showed one of the 60s doing off the South West coast and still have the needed operational crew?

ohnonotgmail

donvito99 wrote: »

What exactly can the P60s do that something like a Jura/Island Class with a 40mm can't do?

Dont the Juras have a top speed of only 16 knots?

Dohvolle

donvito99 wrote: »

What exactly can the P60s do that something like a Jura/Island Class with a 40mm can't do?

Firstly, a Jura doesn't have a 40mm, but that's not the point.
The P60 has 2 engine rooms, so that in the event of a breakdown,fire or other incident, the other engine room can continue powering the Vessel, the Jura if she went dead in the water, requires someone to come and rescue/tow her. Her machinery has surplus capacity and can if needed provide a shore power supply. Handy if assisting remote coastal communities after a Hurricane, either at home or overseas. She can purify her own water using an onboard RO system. This can provide potable water to shore supplies also. Unnecessary on the Jura.
The OPV also act as rescue vessels, they take over as on scene commander using the range of communications equipment aboard to coordinate with other ships and aircraft when dealing with a casualty at sea. Jura has no such facilities, doesn't need them, its not her job.
The P60 is designed to operate in the Western edges of the continental shelf, hence her size. She can handle the type of wave height normally seen around these parts. Jura does not, she is only designed to operate within the Scottish 12 mile limit.
The P60 can support troops abroad, with her deck space, RHIBs comms and armament, she can support troops making a hostile landing. This has been used in the past during the initial landing for Liberia when L.E. Niamh, supported ARW on land, providing comms links to DFHQ while the land hq was being prepared.
Its an armed vessel, designed from the outset as one. It has ammo stores built into the design to prevent such a dangerous cargo becoming a liability.
Intelligence gathering. A recent court case involving a large seizure of drugs at sea revealed the capabilities the NS have in this regard. They were able to plot, track and monitor a vessel of interest as it made its approach from an over the horizon aspect.
In short, the Jura is a 4 wheel drive SUV. You can stick a machine gun on the roof but that won't make it an armoured personnel carrier. The OPV is your APC at sea, and your tow truck, ambulance, police car, cctv, ESB repair crew, Fire Brigade, etc.

Widdensushi

Dohvolle wrote: »

Firstly, a Jura doesn't have a 40mm, but that's not the point.
The P60 has 2 engine rooms, so that in the event of a breakdown,fire or other incident, the other engine room can continue powering the Vessel, the Jura if she went dead in the water, requires someone to come and rescue/tow her. Her machinery has surplus capacity and can if needed provide a shore power supply. Handy if assisting remote coastal communities after a Hurricane, either at home or overseas. She can purify her own water using an onboard RO system. This can provide potable water to shore supplies also. Unnecessary on the Jura.
The OPV also act as rescue vessels, they take over as on scene commander using the range of communications equipment aboard to coordinate with other ships and aircraft when dealing with a casualty at sea. Jura has no such facilities, doesn't need them, its not her job.
The P60 is designed to operate in the Western edges of the continental shelf, hence her size. She can handle the type of wave height normally seen around these parts. Jura does not, she is only designed to operate within the Scottish 12 mile limit.
The P60 can support troops abroad, with her deck space, RHIBs comms and armament, she can support troops making a hostile landing. This has been used in the past during the initial landing for Liberia when L.E. Niamh, supported ARW on land, providing comms links to DFHQ while the land hq was being prepared.
Its an armed vessel, designed from the outset as one. It has ammo stores built into the design to prevent such a dangerous cargo becoming a liability.
Intelligence gathering. A recent court case involving a large seizure of drugs at sea revealed the capabilities the NS have in this regard. They were able to plot, track and monitor a vessel of interest as it made its approach from an over the horizon aspect.
In short, the Jura is a 4 wheel drive SUV. You can stick a machine gun on the roof but that won't make it an armoured personnel carrier. The OPV is your APC at sea, and your tow truck, ambulance, police car, cctv, ESB repair crew, Fire Brigade, etc.

The first paragraph is all easily achieved in much smaller vessels, a 12 mile limit sounds ridiculous, 10 meter fishing vessels are operating 50/60 miles offshore, a fleet of 50m 500 odd gt tuna vessels are operating 200 miles off our west coast for months at a time,in the height of winter, getting refuelled and resupplied by a mothership while having the majority of the vessel taking up with freezing machinery and holds.

The latter part is why you would have larger class vessels not used for fisheries at all.

sparky42

Widdensushi wrote: »

The first paragraph is all easily achieved in much smaller vessels, a 12 mile limit sounds ridiculous, 10 meter fishing vessels are operating 50/60 miles offshore, a fleet of 50m 500 odd gt tuna vessels are operating 200 miles off our west coast for months at a time,in the height of winter, getting refuelled and resupplied by a mothership while having the majority of the vessel taking up with freezing machinery and holds.

The latter part is why you would have larger class vessels not used for fisheries at all.

Those ships aren't sending boarding parties to border other ships, they aren't trying to maintain surveillance on other ships, and the crews conditions sure as hell aren't up to what you need to keep service personnel wanting to be in the service.

Larbre34

The Examiner do cover Defence matters quite well, especially NS which of course they have a local interest in.

However, this is a nothing article really, it sounds just as vague as the basically identical article they wrote in October 2017 before the NS brass went to NZ for a gawk at Canterbury.

What I will say is that I don't like the sound of design by Committee. Yes, multi role vessels are not called that for no reason, but a fishery protection vessel, overseas support ship and troop transport, humanitarian aid ship, gardaí, customs, or the coastguard, vessel - sounds ridiculous.

I still think the Absalon class is the best overall solution, primarily an ocean going naval patrol vessel but with lots of empty, modular space and a crew of just 100. The description the Danish Navy used in their brief is basically exactly what we need.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

The Examiner do cover Defence matters quite well, especially NS which of course they have a local interest in.

However, this is a nothing article really, it sounds just as vague as the basically identical article they wrote in October 2017 before the NS brass went to NZ for a gawk at Canterbury.

What I will say is that I don't like the sound of design by Committee. Yes, multi role vessels are not called that for no reason, but a fishery protection vessel, overseas support ship and troop transport, humanitarian aid ship, gardaí, customs, or the coastguard, vessel - sounds ridiculous.

I still think the Absalon class is the best overall solution, primarily an ocean going naval patrol vessel but with lots of empty, modular space and a crew of just 100. The description the Danish Navy used in their brief is basically exactly what we need.

Yeah it does seem to be a "holding piece" from the PR department just to keep something going. But yeah it has the potential to go wrong I mean the Canterbury shows how things can go wrong. Absalon would have been perfect back in '08 when it was romoured to be the preferred option. Now though?

Larbre34

sparky42 wrote: »

Now though?

Has the brief changed or that design been bettered in your opinion?

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Has the brief changed or that design been bettered in your opinion?

While the Air defence variant has seen more recent builds between being the basis of the Type 31's and the Indonesian buy, the Absalon class hasn't been built since then. We don't really have any idea as to what the costs will be even with a "FFBNW" layout. It depends entirely as to what the NS "weights" the capabilities for, I mean hell that Vard design offers plenty more "transport" capabilities, though lacks the limited air defence of the Frigate.


Given we haven't seen anything other than "it's in planning" since the RFI went dormant back in '08, we really can't say for certain what is being looked for, given how things have changed since then.

Larbre34

Agreed.

But I'd guess, unfortunately, that air defence capability is nowhere on our noble DoDs list of priorities.

Markcheese

If the DOD went with fully with the absalon idea ,they could go with the same stan-flex system ... So even if they didn't spec much in the way of weaponry at first , the ship is designed to have different systems fitted in
just a day or two .. ( I know you need to buy then first and then train with them ,)

What do ye reckon the roles of the ship would be ? I mean yes technically it can do fishery patrols , but there are 6 opvs that can do that easily ... So that's not really going to be high on the list of priorities ..

Markcheese

If the DOD went with fully with the absalon idea ,they could go with the same stan-flex system ... So even if they didn't spec much in the way of weaponry at first , the ship is designed to have different systems fitted in
just a day or two .. ( I know you need to buy then first and then train with them ,)

What do ye reckon the roles of the ship would be ? I mean yes technically it can do fishery patrols , but there are 6 opvs that can do that easily ... So that's not really going to be high on the list of priorities ..

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Agreed.

But I'd guess, unfortunately, that air defence capability is nowhere on our noble DoDs list of priorities.

Indeed, but there's no chance of a defence budget that would cover such capabilities, whatever we get is going to be a "compromise" with the best will in the world. I mean Absolon has more limited Sea Lift but more defensive capabilities, but would the larger sealift/Humanitarian Assistance operations.


We're still in the "spitballing" mode until we see more out of Defence as to what they are looking for.

sparky42

Markcheese wrote: »

If the DOD went with fully with the absalon idea ,they could go with the same stan-flex system ... So even if they didn't spec much in the way of weaponry at first , the ship is designed to have different systems fitted in
just a day or two .. ( I know you need to buy then first and then train with them ,)

What do ye reckon the roles of the ship would be ? I mean yes technically it can do fishery patrols , but there are 6 opvs that can do that easily ... So that's not really going to be high on the list of priorities ..

Yeah Stan-Flex can cover a lot, but for that to work, off the bat you have to get DODto build the CMS backbone, even if you limit even the Radar fit out, so you still get a high "sticker" price out of the dock, no way you get it for the rumoured 200 million they are willing to spend.


As for roles, I mean depending on what we actually get, given they are talking about 5 years from now...? What will the Med be like by then given the increased tensions in the East between Turkey and EU members? Will UNFIL naval operations still be happening? Mali? Atalanta? It's hard to say between how long we are talking about and not even knowing what we are actually buying...

Markcheese

I suppose it's guess work , it's supposed to be a multirole vessel after all , bit of a bugger if you say ,we never thought of that .. and it'll probably have a 30 year working life ..
I suppose it'll have to have some level of ro,/ro , plus a hanger and flight deck ( but for what size helicopter or helicopters ) , an ability to load or unload some items by an onboard crane ,
Some type of landing craft , not just ribs on board .
Accomadation, and hospital capabilities ...
A decent range / endurance if it needs to head off to west africa ,
Sea keeping for the same reasons , rolling around in a car ferry wouldn't be fun ,
But too much draft and it'd be limited in which ports it could dock at , at home and abroad ...
Probably could do with a decent bollard pull too ,

sparky42

Markcheese wrote: »

I suppose it's guess work , it's supposed to be a multirole vessel after all , bit of a bugger if you say ,we never thought of that .. and it'll probably have a 30 year working life ..
I suppose it'll have to have some level of ro,/ro , plus a hanger and flight deck ( but for what size helicopter or helicopters ) , an ability to load or unload some items by an onboard crane ,
Some type of landing craft , not just ribs on board .
Accomadation, and hospital capabilities ...
A decent range / endurance if it needs to head off to west africa ,
Sea keeping for the same reasons , rolling around in a car ferry wouldn't be fun ,
But too much draft and it'd be limited in which ports it could dock at , at home and abroad ...
Probably could do with a decent bollard pull too ,

Yeah, like you say trying to put all that into one ship is going to end up "complicated", how that plays and how well it works is going to be an "experience".

Markcheese

sparky42 wrote: »

Yeah, like you say trying to put all that into one ship is going to end up "complicated", how that plays and how well it works is going to be an "experience".

Ah well , they've probably still hot decades to plan it ..

sparky42

Markcheese wrote: »

Ah well , they've probably still hot decades to plan it ..

They have, but think about it, when this started the NS was still by Government Policy not going to deploy outside Irish Waters regularly, nobody in the 00's would have imagined operations in the Med for months on end within 5 years.

Atlantic Dawn

In the last 10 years in this country the only task I would have used such a new vessel for was recovery of Rescue 116, we had Irish Lights vessel Granuaile available for this, at cost.

sparky42

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

In the last 10 years in this country the only task I would have used such a new vessel for was recovery of Rescue 116, we had Irish Lights vessel Granuaile available for this, at cost.

It's not intended to be used only in this country... Just in case you missed that.

Larbre34

There are a few absolute basics that I think this vessel *should* be equipped for. Whether it will or not depends on having voices of reason in the right jobs over the next while.

1) Full ocean going blue water naval architecture. No Ro-Pax ferries painted grey, thanks.

2) Medium lift naval helicopter operations. Either one or two rescue/sealift/patrol aircraft embarked. The fact we are a maritime nation with zero air/sea presence is beyond laughable and inexcusable. I don't want any fobbing off about being "enabled" for heli-ops, I want aircraft procured and naval pilots trained in paralle with the ship build, to hit the ground running, so to speak.

3) A full suite of anti air and anti ship vertical launched missles and torpedoes to be specced.
This vessel should be able to be anchored off any of our major cities or installations as a mobile air and sea defence platform and likewise for the protection of our overseas deployments into hostile area under UN mandate.

Dohvolle

Larbre34 wrote: »

There are a few absolute basics that I think this vessel *should* be equipped for. Whether it will or not depends on having voices of reason in the right jobs over the next while.

1) Full ocean going blue water naval architecture. No Ro-Pax ferries painted grey, thanks.

2) Medium lift naval helicopter operations. Either one or two rescue/sealift/patrol aircraft embarked. The fact we are a maritime nation with zero air/sea presence is beyond laughable and inexcusable. I don't want any fobbing off about being "enabled" for heli-ops, I want aircraft procured and naval pilots trained in paralle with the ship build, to hit the ground running, so to speak.

3) A full suite of anti air and anti ship vertical launched missles and torpedoes to be specced.
This vessel should be able to be anchored off any of our major cities or installations as a mobile air and sea defence platform and likewise for the protection of our overseas deployments into hostile area under UN mandate.

Nice idea, but try selling that in Dail eireann against an opposition of peacniks and former terrorists and their supporters.

punchdrunk

Larbre34 wrote: »

There are a few absolute basics that I think this vessel *should* be equipped for. Whether it will or not depends on having voices of reason in the right jobs over the next while.

1) Full ocean going blue water naval architecture. No Ro-Pax ferries painted grey, thanks.

2) Medium lift naval helicopter operations. Either one or two rescue/sealift/patrol aircraft embarked. The fact we are a maritime nation with zero air/sea presence is beyond laughable and inexcusable. I don't want any fobbing off about being "enabled" for heli-ops, I want aircraft procured and naval pilots trained in paralle with the ship build, to hit the ground running, so to speak.

3) A full suite of anti air and anti ship vertical launched missles and torpedoes to be specced.
This vessel should be able to be anchored off any of our major cities or installations as a mobile air and sea defence platform and likewise for the protection of our overseas deployments into hostile area under UN mandate.

1: maybe

2: not a snowballs chance of that

3: half the chance of no 2 again!


We’ll get slightly bigger than Eithne, no choppers,
A bit of space down the back for a few containers for diving etc and if we’re really good we might get a drone on it.