Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Leonidas BL · 07-06-2019 12:05am

cameramonkey wrote: »

What EU airspace were they in?

Irish controlled airspace?

cameramonkey · 28-07-2019 2:32am

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Irish controlled airspace?

There is a difference between Irish airspace and Irish controlled airspace. The Russian were within their rights to be flying where they were.

prinzeugen · 29-07-2019 1:57am

roadmaster wrote: »

The Russians where only out for a spin not harming anyone. Besides if there was an emergency I don’t thing the RAF would be able to get jets hear in time anyway

Not harming anyone??? They don't file flight plans, don't have transponders switched on and refuse to contact ATC. As the transponders are off most civil radars cannot see them. They are a major hazard to civil aviation.

Thats why the RAF intercept them. So they can identify them and report their position, height, speed etc so ATC can get civil aircraft out the way.

The RAF could get jets here. 15-20 mins tops.

Leonidas BL · 29-07-2019 3:34am

cameramonkey wrote: »

There is a difference between Irish airspace and Irish controlled airspace. The Russian were within their rights to be flying where they were.

Are they within their right to fly through one of the busiest routs in Europe with the transponder off??

Smiles35 · 29-07-2019 8:16am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Not harming anyone??? They don't file flight plans, don't have transponders switched on and refuse to contact ATC. As the transponders are off most civil radars cannot see them. They are a major hazard to civil aviation.

Thats why the RAF intercept them. So they can identify them and report their position, height, speed etc so ATC can get civil aircraft out the way.

The RAF could get jets here. 15-20 mins tops.

Could the Russians be using a different transponder system altogether for civil aviation? I think they do. Now being military aircraft they would have a set-up for their own ATC. Would it be as simple as changing a frequency to conform to foreign ATC?

That would go some way to explain that downing of a Dutch civil airliner over Ukraine. Their ground units don't have the capability of picking up non-Russian civilian aircraft.

CrankyHaus · 29-07-2019 9:29am

http://https://www.janes.com/article/89974/argentina-selects-korean-fa-50-fighter

Argentina has selected the FA50 as its interim fighter.

Markcheese · 29-07-2019 11:02am

Smiles35 wrote: »

Could the Russians be using a different transponder system altogether for civil aviation? I think they do. Now being military aircraft they would have a set-up for their own ATC. Would it be as simple as changing a frequency to conform to foreign ATC?

That would go some way to explain that downing of a Dutch civil airliner over Ukraine. Their ground units don't have the capability of picking up non-Russian civilian aircraft.

Hang on, I thought the Russians said the Ukrainians ground forces did it, then it was shot down by a plane, now they didn't have the correct type of transponder,
Even though they would have been communicating with the air traffic control, and carrying the requested equipment at every stage of the flight path..

cameramonkey · 29-07-2019 2:40pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Are they within their right to fly through one of the busiest routs in Europe with the transponder off??

Yes they are.

sparky42 · 29-07-2019 2:40pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

http://https://www.janes.com/article/89974/argentina-selects-korean-fa-50-fighter

Argentina has selected the FA50 as its interim fighter.

Given past history of Argentina trying to buy aircraft I wouldn't hold my breath on this tbh.

banie01 · 29-07-2019 2:45pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Given past history of Argentina trying to buy aircraft I wouldn't hold my breath on this tbh.

Along with what they've been looking at.
You don't go bargain basement shopping and add the Gripen to the list just in case.

The Argentines have mainly been looking at 2nd hand or time expired airframes as parts sources to remanufacture there legacy Dassault airframes.
Kfir and Mirage F1's have been actively considered and pursued by them FFS.
Their pursuit of equipment that actually is flyable is getting quite desperate.

CrankyHaus · 29-07-2019 3:13pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Given past history of Argentina trying to buy aircraft I wouldn't hold my breath on this tbh.

It makes sense as a bare minimum purchase, to go with the Super Etendard Modernise the French offloaded on them for buttons.

Their existing planes are ancient and knackered and they need to buy something to retain a minimal level of capability and experience.

How they get on with them could highlight how viable the FA 50 is for running an airforce on the cheap.

sparky42 · 29-07-2019 3:36pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It makes sense as a bare minimum purchase, to go with the Super Etendard Modernise the French offloaded on them for buttons.

Their existing planes are ancient and knackered and they need to buy something to retain a minimal level of capability and experience.

How they get on with them could highlight how viable the FA 50 is for running an airforce on the cheap.

I think at this stage when you have Destroyers sinking at the pier side it's more for optics, like the plan to buy second hand subs from Brazil (which all need huge investment to be made operational). The Argentinean budget just isn't enough. What will be more interesting is how the UK reacts, time after time they've been doing backroom deals/pressures to keep modern fighters from Argentina, will they do so again?

Does the FA 50 have any parts that are UK design/built?

newcavanman · 17-08-2019 11:40pm

The right thing for us would be to have purchased , say 18 of the F-16A MLU which the dutch and belgians sold off 8-10 years ago . Most of these aircraft had been rebuilt and updated to match Block 40 F-16s . However, it was never going to be a runner with the way defence is run in this country. The practical solution is to come to an arrangement, ideally with the RAF , but politically would have to be the French. We provide a base, Shannon, Knock or similar with a proper QRA set up, and a proper military radar. The french provide modern fighters, probably 4-6 required to be deployed . we have some aer corp pilots seconded to the french air force, trained up to full fast jet capability, through the french or nato training systems. All the irish pilots could be integrated with the french fast jet pilot pool so at any given time , the pilots deployed here would be from either background . we provide the ground crew and the facilities and have equal say with the french on the standard operating procedures for the aircraft operating from ireland
i think the french would go for it, just to annoy the UKif nothing else we would get proper air defence at the minimum cost possible .
If this were ever to ass, of course, most of us would probably be regularly missing froim work as we fecked off to spend the day on the perimeter road of wherever they were based

Stovepipe · 18-08-2019 9:52pm

The Argentinians recently got a delivery of retired Super Etendards from the French.

Markcheese · 18-08-2019 11:53pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

The Argentinians recently got a delivery of retired Super Etendards from the French.

I thought they were grounded?

banie01 · 19-08-2019 12:02am

Markcheese wrote: »

I thought they were grounded?

They were bought to augment what they had, 5 obsolete airframes won't do much imo.

The best of the airframes will be pooled with the existing Argie airframes a cannibalisation will give them some capacity to keep a credible etendard/Exocet force.

Stovepipe · 19-08-2019 1:21pm

The French airframes were routinely upgraded in service since the days of the Falklands war and would be a generation ahead of the existing Argentinian airframes, in terms of flight and weapons electronics, the radar's abilities and it's ability to use modern missiles. So, as banie said, they would act as the core of a rebuilt fleet.

CrankyHaus · 19-08-2019 3:49pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/fighter-variant-of-m-346-secures-launch-deal-460019/

First sale of M346 FA. 6 sold to an undisclosed customer.

Leonidas BL · 19-08-2019 4:11pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/fighter-variant-of-m-346-secures-launch-deal-460019/

First sale of M346 FA. 6 sold to an undisclosed customer.

Must be the Air Corps

jonnybigwallet · 08-09-2019 2:35pm

I see that the Brazilian Air force have taken delivery of their first KC 390 troop lifter. We could do with a couple of them!

sparky42 · 08-09-2019 3:14pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I see that the Brazilian Air force have taken delivery of their first KC 390 troop lifter. We could do with a couple of them!

As I've said before for once lets not buy hardware that's just in service and so far has only 1 confirmed export nation (from memory) and which has already had a drawn out development cycle.

jonnybigwallet · 08-09-2019 8:39pm

Tis a hell of a handsome beast ya have to admit!

jonnybigwallet · 05-10-2019 2:42pm

On the topic of fighter jets...that chech Aero L39 packs a lot of bang for the buck!
It's the machine that the Breitling display team use. Well proven and tested and new modernised version ( designated NG) is available and they are very reasonably priced. Some second hand units pop up from time to time.

Leonidas BL · 05-10-2019 2:45pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

On the topic of fighter jets...that chech Aero L39 packs a lot of bang for the buck!
It's the machine that the Breitling display team use. Well proven and tested and new modernised version ( designated NG) is available and they are very reasonably priced. Some second hand units pop up from time to time.

Not sure what they'd add over the PC-9???

sparky42 · 05-10-2019 7:46pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Not sure what they'd add over the PC-9???

Very little, and the AC has plenty of more important things to spend money on.

Psychlops · 05-10-2019 8:16pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Very little, and the AC has plenty of more important things to spend money on.

Like keeping Pilots first, that pool is growing shallower by the week.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/shortage-of-air-corps-pilots-and-technicians-approaches-critical-level-1.3854902

sparky42 · 05-10-2019 10:23pm

Psychlops wrote: »

Like keeping Pilots first, that pool is growing shallower by the week.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/shortage-of-air-corps-pilots-and-technicians-approaches-critical-level-1.3854902

Course it is, but nothing is going to be done until it's too late in regards to the Manpower crisis.

Leonidas BL · 06-10-2019 2:11pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Course it is, but nothing is going to be done until it's too late in regards to the Manpower crisis.

What can be done??

sparky42 · 06-10-2019 3:04pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

What can be done??

Not treat the DF like lepers when it comes to spending... But we know that's not going to happen.

jonnybigwallet · 17-10-2019 4:25pm

Buy them some decent kit and they might stop leaving in droves imo. That Korean F 50 Golden Eagle looks a bit handy. 8 of them would be just the ticket!

Plumbthedepths · 17-10-2019 5:32pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Buy them some decent kit and they might stop leaving in droves imo. That Korean F 50 Golden Eagle looks a bit handy. 8 of them would be just the ticket!

8 for 240 million out of a total budget of 639 million. As a suggestion won't 'fly' I'm afraid.

sparky42 · 17-10-2019 10:24pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

8 for 240 million out of a total budget of 639 million. As a suggestion won't 'fly' I'm afraid.

Also I'd question whether that would make the massive difference in numbers.

Heraldoffreeent · 17-10-2019 10:53pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Also I'd question whether that would make the massive difference in numbers.

Try sending 2 of them out from the Bal with no ground based Radar, and with external tanks and 4/6 A to A (unclean) on board and see what hope you have of coming within a hundred miles of a roaming Tu.And Bob just left the building......

On a kind of unrelated note, I see KAI have a new SAAB like promotional vid for the KAI K/I/ FX, looks good, but then don't they all?

sparky42 · 17-10-2019 10:59pm

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Try sending 2 of them out from the Bal with no ground based Radar, and with external tanks and 4/6 A to A (unclean) on board and see what hope you have of coming within a hundred miles of a roaming Tu.And Bob just left the building.....

Now now, lets not get hung up on details I mean you just posted that lovely video shouldn't we run out and buy a dozen at once...

Of course you're right there's a hell of a lot more than buying the fancy jet to consider either for AC operations or arresting manpower issues, but that can't compare to fancy videos it seems.

Heraldoffreeent · 17-10-2019 11:16pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Now now, lets not get hung up on details I mean you just posted that lovely video shouldn't we run out and buy a dozen at once...

Of course you're right there's a hell of a lot more than buying the fancy jet to consider either for AC operations or arresting manpower issues, but that can't compare to fancy videos it seems.

I had a look at the KF/X wiki, says 50 miller each, Lads soon be saying buy 20, lease over 20 years be only 50mill a yeat, what could possibly go wrong????

(I think the pricing is 10 years old though.)

Leonidas BL · 19-10-2019 6:21pm

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

I had a look at the KF/X wiki, says 50 miller each, Lads soon be saying buy 20, lease over 20 years be only 50mill a yeat, what could possibly go wrong????

(I think the pricing is 10 years old though.)

Still think the Saab Gripen lease is the way to go.

jonnybigwallet · 21-11-2019 12:39pm

I just read in the paper that the Argentine Airforce is buying 10 of those KA 50 planes for 30 million US dollars a pop including training. 8 would be OK for the Air Corps. Cracking bit of kit that!

Leonidas BL · 21-11-2019 6:04pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I just read in the paper that the Argentine Airforce is buying 10 of those KA 50 planes for 30 million US dollars a pop including training. 8 would be OK for the Air Corps. Cracking bit of kit that!

They'd be pretty cool alright. Still think the Saab is better though.

Psychlops · 24-11-2019 8:14pm

The way Kehoe is going it looks like he is trying to kill the Air Corps.

sparky42 · 25-11-2019 12:32pm

Psychlops wrote: »

The way Kehoe is going it looks like he is trying to kill the Air Corps.

That presumes the man has the attention span to actually carry something out, I think it's more likely that the DOD are the ones trying to run down the DF.

Lord Fairlord · 15-12-2019 8:31pm

Really, if one thinks about it (and I'm sure that something to this effect has been said a myriad of times before), a sovereign state ought really have planes capable of intercepting at least a hijacked commercial jet airliner.
There might be a negligible threat now but it's too late to start preparing for something when it goes wrong.

sparky42 · 15-12-2019 11:01pm

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

Really, if one thinks about it (and I'm sure that something to this effect has been said a myriad of times before), a sovereign state ought really have planes capable of intercepting at least a hijacked commercial jet airliner.
There might be a negligible threat now but it's too late to start preparing for something when it goes wrong.

But think of the "outrage" from everyone about spending X million on defence when there's Y problems, while ignoring the fact that said problems have so much more money put into them...

Yawlboy · 16-12-2019 1:09pm

sparky42 wrote: »

But think of the "outrage" from everyone about spending X million on defence when there's Y problems, while ignoring the fact that said problems have so much more money put into them...

Well they just spent upwards of €56,000,000 on two new C 295s and no one is complaining. https://www.janes.com/article/93201/ireland-orders-c295-mpas

Larbre34 · 16-12-2019 1:18pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

Well they just spent upwards of €56,000,000 on two new C 295s and no one is complaining. https://www.janes.com/article/93201/ireland-orders-c295-mpas

Thats cos nobody knows. It made the Examiner, about the only paper that covers defence properly, but who reads that outside the N40. I'm not saying they should complain, but there'll always be some of it.

Yawlboy · 16-12-2019 1:29pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Thats cos nobody knows. It made the Examiner, about the only paper that covers defence properly, but who reads that outside the N40. I'm not saying they should complain, but there'll always be some of it.

Wow the actual cost is €221.6 Million for two unarmed maritime patrol aircraft!!!

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/air-corps-to-receive-two-new-planes-970329.html

sparky42 · 16-12-2019 1:49pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

Wow the actual cost is €221.6 Million for two unarmed maritime patrol aircraft!!!

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/air-corps-to-receive-two-new-planes-970329.html

No they haven't, the EU is paying some of it, though who knows the share, also it's not just for the planes themselves.

Moreover there's a huge difference politically and publicly to buying a 1 for 1 replacement for something that's been in service for 25 years and buying fighters.

Yawlboy · 16-12-2019 2:01pm

I was simply surprised with the total cost, that is a lot of money, I'd love to understand how it went from a list price of €28M to over €110M per aircraft.

In relation to Fighter Jets for the AC - I reckon the current personnel issues might be partially alleviated if the AC were to purchase some proper fighter aircraft. Recruitment and retention might increase if people got to see and fly proper military fast jets.

sparky42 · 16-12-2019 2:31pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

I was simply surprised with the total cost, that is a lot of money, I'd love to understand how it went from a list price of €28M to over €110M per aircraft.

In relation to Fighter Jets for the AC - I reckon the current personnel issues might be partially alleviated if the AC were to purchase some proper fighter aircraft. Recruitment and retention might increase if people got to see and fly proper military fast jets.

To be fair that 28 million is from 2013, think the real unit price is higher at this stage, also this isn't just the fly away price, it's spares, training, maintenance...

I really doubt having fighters would make any difference at the moment, much more likely they would sit around without enough people to use them, let alone the lack of radar systems, C&C etc.

Morpheus · 23-12-2019 2:34pm

Both aircraft have an incredibly good suite of sensors and kit (this is the extra cost, the airframe is cheap compared with fitted equipment)
Both aircraft will (most likely) come with other fit-outs including seating for troops, emergency medical transport, equipment transport modules etc - dont believe they come with the VIP seating (which is good).
Both are the current spec C295 maritime patrol model so are fitted for weapons, wings have pylons for missiles etc and are plumbed for such, this model is also fitted with ECM and flare launchers - i know some countries have had ASW kit fitted, dont believe ours will though.

https://www.airbus.com/defence/c295.html#technology

jonnybigwallet · 23-12-2019 7:09pm

Cool bit of kit! I notice the US air force is flogging off some completely refurbed F16's complete with training and spares and support package. Indonesia just bought a load of them and they have another buyer lined up for a couple of squadrons as well. Good opportunity for our lads to get hold of some I reckon...at a decent price!

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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